| 02:38 | <heycam> | did the Location interface have stringification requirements that were removed? or am i misremembering? |
| 02:39 | <heycam> | i thought i remembered the interface having [Stringifies=href] on it |
| 04:00 | <shepazu> | does the case-insensitivity extend to attribute values, or just element and attribute names? |
| 04:01 | <heycam> | shepazu, which case-insensitivity? |
| 04:03 | <heycam> | i don't think in general the case of attribute values is changed: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/syntax.html#attribute-value-%28double-quoted%29-state |
| 04:04 | <heycam> | when parsing |
| 04:11 | <shepazu> | ok, thanks, heycam |
| 05:54 | <othermaciej> | Hixie is a brave man |
| 06:24 | <hober> | indeed. I can't imagine going near the codec discussion |
| 06:38 | <shepazu> | Hixie: is heycam correct that attribute values are not parsed in a case-insensitive manner? |
| 06:40 | <shepazu> | (to unwind that a bit: my understanding is that attribute values, unlike element and attribute names, are left as the case they are encountered, and not matched to different values in the DOM) |
| 06:52 | <Hixie> | shepazu: correct -- iirc the only processing the parser does on attribute values (other than finding their delimiters) is &entity; expansion |
| 06:57 | <shepazu> | Hixie: ok, good... I was worried for a moment about path commands (relative and absolute) |
| 06:59 | <shepazu> | now, what implications does that have on things like <text text-anchor="miDDle"/> ? will that be "error-corrected", somehow permitted as is, or fail? |
| 07:13 | <heycam> | shepazu, afaict, that's purely within our (svg's) purview |
| 07:17 | <shepazu> | heycam: then that opens up a question we should be addressing, no? |
| 07:17 | <heycam> | yeah i think it would be good to talk about that |
| 07:18 | <Hixie> | shepazu: same as in XML. |
| 07:18 | <heycam> | especially for consistency with style="text-anchor: miDDle", which is allowed i think |
| 07:18 | <shepazu> | heycam: the one place it really matters, IIRC, is path@d |
| 07:19 | <shepazu> | oh, and anyplace where an @id is referenced |
| 07:19 | <Hixie> | personally I would encourage you to keep as much as possible case-sensitive as you can |
| 07:19 | <Hixie> | but that if you do have anything case-insensitive, you make it work the same in XML as in text/html |
| 07:20 | <shepazu> | Hixie: we would certainly do the latter |
| 07:20 | <Hixie> | but that's just me :-) |
| 07:20 | <shepazu> | you've argued for case-insensitivity for element and attribute names... this seems a bit inconsistent |
| 10:29 | <takkaria> | gsnedders: have you written content-type sniffing tests for abarth's draft? someone said you might have done |
| 10:31 | <gsnedders> | takkaria: I started playing around with ome but never got anywhere really |
| 10:31 | <gsnedders> | takkaria: gimme a min |
| 10:32 | <gsnedders> | takkaria: Ah, http://gsnedders.html5.org/tests/content-type.php is what I have |
| 10:33 | <gsnedders> | heh. Opera 10b thinks i'm on a slow network. |
| 10:35 | <takkaria> | gsnedders: hm useful, is the source for that around anywhere? |
| 10:35 | <gsnedders> | no |
| 10:35 | <takkaria> | ok :) |
| 10:35 | gsnedders | can grab it if you want |
| 10:36 | <takkaria> | no, don't worry, it was more out of curiosity than anything |
| 10:37 | <gsnedders> | takkaria: http://gsnedders.html5.org/tests/ct.tgz |
| 10:38 | <takkaria> | gsnedders: ta |
| 11:27 | <virtuelv> | Hixie: do you have anything written on Channel messaging yet? or are there requirements available anywhere? |
| 11:34 | <Hixie> | virtuelv: Channel messaging? |
| 11:47 | <gsnedders> | takkaria: yt? |
| 11:47 | <takkaria> | gsnedders: yup |
| 11:48 | <gsnedders> | takkaria: Had lunch? |
| 11:48 | <takkaria> | nope :) |
| 11:48 | <gsnedders> | takkaria: Want to go and get lunch? :) |
| 11:48 | gsnedders | uh, forgot to bring lunch |
| 11:49 | <takkaria> | ah |
| 11:49 | <takkaria> | I have curry to reheat |
| 11:49 | <gsnedders> | (and everyone around here has had lunch) |
| 12:56 | <virtuelv> | Hixie: yes |
| 12:56 | <virtuelv> | 8.1 Event definitions |
| 12:56 | <virtuelv> | Messages in server-sent events, Web sockets, cross-document messaging, and channel messaging use the message event. |
| 12:57 | <virtuelv> | the link to channel messaging points to a description not yet written |
| 13:02 | <virtuelv> | I'm having a hard time understanding where this fits into anything |
| 13:07 | <virtuelv> | and is there any particular reason step six in the description uses Window instead of WindowProxy? |
| 13:07 | <virtuelv> | «Queue a task to dispatch the event created in the previous step at the Window object on which the method was invoked. The task source for this task is the posted message task source.» |
| 13:08 | <virtuelv> | ah, nevermind that last one |
| 13:14 | <gsnedders> | What's a good hex editor? |
| 13:14 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: I don't know what a good one is but ghexedit or something is a hex editor |
| 13:15 | <jgraham> | Oh it's called ghex |
| 13:17 | <Philip`> | I used to like Biew |
| 13:30 | jgraham | notes that not having ready access to windows makes testing jas harder |
| 13:30 | <jgraham> | *JAWS |
| 13:31 | Philip` | wonders how hard it can be to get access to Windows |
| 13:32 | <takkaria> | jgraham: I think there should be some vmware images around on the network somewhere, if that's any use |
| 13:32 | <Philip`> | It's not like you're trying to get access to a SunOS 4 machine or something |
| 13:34 | <jgraham> | takkaria: Well I have windowws 7 in Virtualbox but I don't think it likes my audio. Plus I don't really want to spend my weekends in the office |
| 13:35 | <virtuelv> | gsnedders: you could also have a look at Bless as a hex editor |
| 13:35 | <virtuelv> | (and since we're on such tools, presumably in a Gnome environment - Meld is by far the nicest diff viewer) |
| 13:36 | <takkaria> | you say 'meld', I say 'less' :) |
| 13:40 | <Philip`> | gsnedders: If the file you want to hex edit is actually executable code, then http://www.hex-rays.com/idapro/ is great |
| 13:40 | <gsnedders> | Philip`: It is not |
| 13:40 | <Philip`> | gsnedders: Then you should find some executable code and use IDA on that |
| 13:44 | Philip` | wishes Google hadn't decided to start looking all ugly with a wide margin around the search results page |
| 16:30 | <Philip`> | http://everything2.com/title/W3C - "There is not a single browser on the market that complys with all W3C standards, not even Microsoft Internet Explorer." |
| 16:30 | <Philip`> | (Thu Nov 02 2000 at 2:39:22) |
| 16:30 | <Philip`> | The first part of that sentence is still true, but I can't imagine anyone nowadays saying the second part |
| 16:31 | <Philip`> | I guess things haven't really changed that much, they've just shuffled around a bit |
| 16:38 | <tantek> | It may not be possible for any single implementation of anything to comply with all W3C standards - have you seen how many there are? http://www.w3.org/TR/ |
| 17:04 | <takkaria> | things which suck: when your internet connection will only show you your broadband company's activation page and it's all in swedish |
| 17:07 | <Philip`> | All you need to do is activate the internet connection and then put the page through Google Translate to see what it said |
| 17:35 | <Midler> | takkaria: U want help with swedish? |
| 17:35 | <Midler> | Or is it way to late? |
| 17:35 | <takkaria> | I've sorted it now |
| 17:36 | <Midler> | In that way, Sweden is just like poland and other countries |
| 17:36 | <Midler> | U have ascii characters that u've never used...almost |
| 17:36 | <Midler> | =) |
| 17:36 | <takkaria> | my swedish is picking up rapidly |
| 17:36 | <takkaria> | but that's what happens when you sit and translate things word-by-word |
| 17:37 | <Midler> | :D |
| 17:37 | <Midler> | why not using google translate or something similar? |
| 17:40 | <takkaria> | I have time on my hands, and a swedish-english dictionary |
| 17:41 | <takkaria> | if I'm in sweden for twelve weeks, I might as well use all the opportunities I can to learn the language |
| 17:41 | <Midler> | oh, thats a long time |
| 17:42 | <takkaria> | I'm going to have a go at reading the paper in a bit |
| 17:43 | <Midler> | I guess comics might be an easy way to start. Seing their expressions makes it easier to understand what they say...i guess |
| 18:00 | <remysharp> | is there anyone here that knows a bit about the offline apps/manifest? |
| 18:01 | <remysharp> | I've got this url in Firefox (from what I can tell, RC3 == final release): http://html5demos.com/offlineapp - allow it to store and refresh I get a content encoding issue - |
| 18:02 | <remysharp> | does this look like a bug to do with FF or is this something I've done wrong? |
| 18:02 | <remysharp> | the manifest is being served under the right mime type (or should be - I did change it) |
| 18:02 | remysharp | works fine in Safari 4 + iPhone version. |
| 18:26 | <beowulf> | remysharp: i have the same problem |
| 18:26 | <remysharp> | cool - then it's not just me |
| 18:26 | <remysharp> | or - you've got same issue on my url or your own test? |
| 18:27 | <beowulf> | remysharp: when i try a hello world with a manifest I get a Content Encoding Error with ff3.5 |
| 18:27 | <beowulf> | remysharp: http://www.carisenda.com/sandbox/storage/ |
| 18:27 | <remysharp> | aye - cool - then it's a bug |
| 18:28 | <remysharp> | great. damn, that's some badass functionality and it doesn't work in FF :-( |
| 18:28 | <beowulf> | well, it would appear to be worse than doesn't work, it prevents you from using it |
| 18:28 | <remysharp> | Is that you then, beowulf == Stephen ? \o. hi if so! |
| 18:29 | <beowulf> | unless we've both done something stupid :) |
| 18:29 | <beowulf> | remysharp: hi! :) |
| 18:31 | <remysharp> | :) |
| 18:31 | <beowulf> | remysharp: it seems to work ok in ff 3.05 |
| 18:31 | <beowulf> | 3.0.5 |
| 18:32 | <remysharp> | then it's definitely a regression bug. |
| 18:32 | <remysharp> | perfect, that's what I needed. |
| 18:32 | <remysharp> | thanks! |
| 18:33 | beowulf | checks his logs... |
| 18:34 | <beowulf> | ah, it asked me if it was ok to store stuff but doesn't look at the manifest |
| 18:35 | <remysharp> | my server logs do when I'm checking it |
| 18:35 | <remysharp> | or do you mean FF3.0.5? |
| 18:35 | <beowulf> | yeah, i'm trying 3.05 (which confused me by asking if it was ok to store stuff offline) |
| 18:40 | <ttepasse> | Is it just me or is whatwg.org down? |
| 18:41 | <ezyang> | http://downforeveryoneorjustme.com/whatwg.org |
| 18:41 | <ttepasse> | thanks. |
| 18:43 | <Midler> | ezyang: Now i just need to remember that DNS name... |
| 18:43 | <Midler> | :P |
| 18:43 | <beowulf> | remysharp: does your server use mod_deflate? |
| 18:43 | <remysharp> | nope |
| 18:43 | <remysharp> | but it does use gzip |
| 18:43 | <ezyang> | http://lmgtfy.com/ |
| 18:44 | <ezyang> | ;-) |
| 18:44 | <Midler> | hahaha |
| 18:44 | <Midler> | well, my brain only has place for a byte |
| 18:44 | <Midler> | oops to low |
| 18:45 | <Midler> | 16bytes |
| 18:45 | <Midler> | i dont count .com |
| 19:56 | <Philip`> | How boring, Yahoo fixed their iso-2022-kr XSS vulnerability quickly :-( |
| 19:56 | Philip` | wonders how many other sites are vulnerable to the same issue |
| 19:56 | <ezyang> | linky? |
| 19:57 | <Philip`> | ezyang: http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=%EC%84%9E%E8%81%BD%E9%9D%91%E5%AD%83%EC%88%8D%E8%A8%8A%E6%98%B1%E7%A9%BF%E5%88%B7%E5%A5%84%E5%89%94%EA%B5%89%EB%82%91%EC%84%9E%E6%98%8C%E4%BE%84%E5%BE%9E%EC%97%86&ei=UTF-8&eo=iso-2022-kr |
| 19:57 | <Philip`> | in Chrome |
| 19:57 | <Philip`> | before today |
| 19:57 | <ezyang> | holy crap long url |
| 19:57 | <Philip`> | Safer than pasting Unicode into IRC :-) |
| 19:58 | <ezyang> | my irc client doesn't actually make it easy for me to open that :-( |
| 19:58 | <ezyang> | (the url marches off the side of my terminal) |
| 19:58 | <Philip`> | http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20090630#l-406 |
| 19:58 | <ezyang> | sweet |
| 19:59 | <ezyang> | So, what does the text "do"? |
| 20:00 | <Philip`> | $ echo '섞聽靑孃숍訊昱穿刷奄剔굉낑섞昌侄從없' | iconv -t iso-2022-kr |
| 20:00 | <Philip`> | )C</title><script>alert(123)</script>x |
| 20:00 | <ezyang> | whoa :-P |
| 20:01 | <ezyang> | Ok, so this only affects sites that let you set the page's output encoding |
| 20:01 | <Philip`> | so Yahoo encodes the text into that string of bytes, and Chrome doesn't support iso-2022-kr so it decodes as iso-8859-1 (or utf-8 or something) and executes the script |
| 20:01 | <Philip`> | (All other browsers do support iso-2022-kr, as far as I can tell) |
| 20:01 | <ezyang> | That's... a chrome bug |
| 20:02 | <ezyang> | Also, I still don't understand why search engines let you twiddle the output encoding |
| 20:02 | <Philip`> | It's not a bug for a browser to not support a relatively obscure encoding |
| 20:03 | <Philip`> | Even if it did, you might be able to find aliases that are supported by a server but not by the browser |
| 20:03 | <Philip`> | Twiddling the output encoding does seem like a pretty stupid idea |
| 20:03 | <Philip`> | but Google and Yahoo both allow it, so I guess they've got reasons |
| 20:04 | <Philip`> | Ultraseek allows it too, and didn't even forbid EBCDIC when I last tried it, so you can XSS it that way too |
| 20:04 | <ezyang> | So, the only good reason is accessibility |
| 20:05 | <ezyang> | For those pauvre browsers that don't support UTF-8 |
| 20:05 | <ezyang> | Search engines like Google have a weird notion of what accessible needs to be |
| 20:06 | <ezyang> | I wonder what UTF-8 penetration is these days |
| 20:07 | <Philip`> | It doesn't help those browsers unless the users intentionally follow a link with the query parameter that sets the output encoding |
| 20:07 | <ezyang> | I thought that Google would do tricky user agent detection? |
| 20:12 | <Philip`> | If it was doing that, why would it put the output encoding in the query parameter instead of doing the tricky user agent detection when serving the results page? |
| 20:56 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: Can't get a external HD shipped to SE from amazon.co.uk :P |
| 21:32 | <eighty4> | gsnedders: buy one from dustinhome, I bet they're way better then crapy amazon |
| 21:40 | <gsnedders> | eighty4: And several hundred kronor more expensive |
| 21:41 | <eighty4> | so :) |
| 21:44 | <eighty4> | not several |
| 21:44 | <gsnedders> | several with what I need to buy :) |
| 21:45 | <eighty4> | ok |
| 21:45 | <eighty4> | I'm thinking of buying this: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Samsung-Spin-Point-Internal-Drive/dp/B000XZ5JBW/ref=sr_1_19?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1246394761&sr=1-19 from dusinhome |
| 21:45 | <gsnedders> | Amazon isn't the place to buy internal HDs :) |
| 21:46 | <eighty4> | costs 865 sek from amazon and 895 from dusin |
| 21:50 | <Dashiva> | gsnedders: Why not buy it, you know, from somewhere in Sweden? |
| 21:50 | <gsnedders> | Dashiva: It costs more? |
| 21:50 | <gsnedders> | Dashiva: Also, the Swedish websites are, uh, in Swedish. |
| 21:53 | <Dashiva> | I'm pretty sure Samsung Spin Point is the same :P |
| 21:54 | <gsnedders> | Dashiva: But actually buying stuff is more challenging :P |
| 21:54 | <Dashiva> | And surely you aren't the person to back away from a good challenge |
| 21:56 | <Dashiva> | Why must people insist on using obviously flawed analogies? |
| 21:58 | <gsnedders> | Dashiva: Where's the fun in coherent analogies? |
| 21:58 | <Dashiva> | I was thinking maybe the goal of an analogy was communication, not fun :) |
| 21:59 | <gsnedders> | Dashiva: You misguided bugger |
| 22:23 | <Sirisian> | I'm confused. whatwg is linked from the W3C site, but what is it? |
| 22:23 | <Sirisian> | Just a group of developers? |
| 22:23 | <Hixie> | http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/FAQ#What_is_the_WHATWG.3F |
| 22:23 | <Sirisian> | oh nvm |
| 22:23 | <Sirisian> | yeah just saw it |
| 22:23 | <Sirisian> | it's also on the main site. I didn't scroll down |
| 22:29 | <Sirisian> | Something I noticed. I've been looking through the Editor's Draft for the HTML 5 stuff. It has a section for the context menus and it says "When an element's context menu is requested [...] the UA must fire a simple event called contextmenu that bubbles and is cancelable at the element for which the menu was requested." I was going to post in the forum with a long post, but why isn't this extended to mouse up and mouse down |
| 22:29 | <Sirisian> | to set a standard for preventDefault for like middle click events by the browser. (Making a standard that says it should be "cancelable"). |
| 22:30 | <Hixie> | there is another spec to handle the actual user interaction events |
| 22:30 | <Hixie> | like mousedown and mouseup |
| 22:30 | <Hixie> | separate from html5 |
| 22:30 | <Hixie> | (it applies to things like svg also) |
| 22:30 | <Hixie> | that spec hasn't been written yet though |
| 22:30 | <Sirisian> | You mean for how browsers should react and work with them? |
| 22:30 | <Hixie> | yeah |
| 22:30 | <Sirisian> | oh is there a link? I must have missed it |
| 22:30 | <Hixie> | and how they should be cancelable and stuff |
| 22:30 | <Hixie> | it doesn't exist yet |
| 22:32 | <Sirisian> | oh that's why. Well that's good to here. Right now FF and IE have methods to allow a web developer to fully take over the mouse. I've been looking forward for a while when that idea is passed onto other browsers. Thanks for the response. |
| 22:32 | <Sirisian> | hear* |
| 23:18 | <roc> | I find it unfathomable that in 2009 people still argue that HTML5 should have draconian parsing |
| 23:23 | <othermaciej> | wait, what? who? |
| 23:50 | <roc> | http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=6777#c13 |