| 00:38 | <takkaria> | gah, it's too warm to sleep |
| 08:00 | <hsivonen> | http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1038191/google-homepage-not-valid-html/1044778#1044778 |
| 08:33 | <Lachy> | depending on how the page is built, I'm quite sure the performance of google could actually be improved by adopting a more standards based approach |
| 08:33 | <othermaciej> | I feel guilty for posting on the codec thread |
| 08:33 | <othermaciej> | I should have known better |
| 08:34 | <MikeSmith> | othermaciej: I can't see what part of your message somebody could reasonably take issue with. |
| 08:34 | <MikeSmith> | I think the hardware concern is a major concern |
| 08:35 | <othermaciej> | MikeSmith: I was just hoping that I wouldn't extend the flamewar |
| 08:42 | <MikeSmith> | othermaciej: if you didn't post on the thread at all, your silence would be interpreted as a clear indication that you are indeed part of the conspiracy |
| 08:42 | <othermaciej> | obviously |
| 08:43 | <MikeSmith> | I think it's high time I added some H.264 and Theora stuff to my wisdom generator |
| 08:47 | <MikeSmith> | heh. looking at it now, I see that I already had the "the MP/LA Expert Group" in there |
| 08:47 | <MikeSmith> | under the category "seemingly-benign-pawns" |
| 08:56 | <MikeSmith> | ok, now with even more wisdom: http://logopoeia.com/wisdom/ |
| 08:56 | <MikeSmith> | well, slightly more |
| 08:58 | <annevk2> | first hit: "the divine principle of time inequality is encoded in Anne van Kesteren's weblog." |
| 08:58 | <annevk2> | though reading further it also says "the divine principle of time inequality is encoded in the Nag Hammadi Library" |
| 08:59 | <annevk2> | "Eminent thinkers throughout history (Roy Fielding, etc.) agree that the divine principle of time inequality is the transcendental principle behind all creation" :p |
| 09:10 | <hsivonen> | is any spec responsible for XMLSerializer? |
| 09:13 | <annevk2> | nope |
| 09:15 | <hsivonen> | :-( there should be |
| 09:16 | <hsivonen> | It turns out that MySpace uses it on HTML DOMs and makes expectations |
| 09:16 | <othermaciej> | maybe XMLSerializer and DOMParser can be snuck into Web DOM Core |
| 09:16 | <othermaciej> | what expectations do they have? |
| 09:18 | <hsivonen> | othermaciej: they expect no generated namespace declarations |
| 09:18 | <othermaciej> | where do they depend on that? |
| 09:19 | <othermaciej> | I think Safari would generate namespace declarations and so violate their expectation |
| 09:19 | <hsivonen> | they except h=h.replace(/<html>|<\/html>|<html\/>/gi,"") to zap the root element tags |
| 09:19 | <hsivonen> | when updating status/mood |
| 09:21 | <othermaciej> | you're making it sound like their way to do status updates is a Rube Goldberg device |
| 09:25 | <hsivonen> | othermaciej: it is |
| 10:10 | <roc> | if we want an good baseline video codec |
| 10:10 | <roc> | and the barrier is the choices made by device manufacturers and their hardware suppliers |
| 10:10 | <roc> | and their decisions are purely economic |
| 10:11 | <hsivonen> | how varied are the DSPs used in contemporary handhelds? |
| 10:11 | <roc> | then the only practical way forward is to encourage the proliferation of content in an unencumbered codec, to tip that economic balance |
| 10:12 | <roc> | so it seems to me that everyone who's interested in having a good baseline video codec should be encouraging that |
| 10:13 | <roc> | including by supporting Theora wherever the device constraints do not apply |
| 10:15 | <roc> | hsivonen: a lot are using these OMAP chips, but a lot aren't |
| 10:16 | <hsivonen> | just wondering if writing for a Nokia shipped TI chip results in any portability to whatever Apple uses in iPhone |
| 10:16 | <roc> | I believe the answer is no |
| 10:17 | <hsivonen> | ok :-( |
| 10:42 | <annevk2> | oh hey, gsnedders just invaded my inbox via our bug tracking software |
| 10:42 | <annevk2> | welcome! |
| 10:45 | <roc> | annevk2: I already made your point about vendor consensus! |
| 10:46 | <roc> | therefore it's a good one :-) |
| 10:46 | <hsivonen> | is Web DOM Core a W3C deliverable already? |
| 10:47 | <gsnedders> | annevk2: mwhaha? |
| 10:49 | <annevk2> | roc, teaches me to read the whole thread first (over and over again...) :) |
| 10:49 | <roc> | this is why gmail is superior |
| 10:52 | hsivonen | hasn't read the whole thread but points out that Nokia ships Flash on Maemo |
| 10:52 | hsivonen | wonders what *that* does to battery life when watching YouTube |
| 10:52 | <hsivonen> | I guess I should measure |
| 11:21 | <annevk2> | roc, congrats btw on Firefox 3.5, haven't tried the official release yet, but it sure seems like a great product |
| 11:31 | <roc> | thanks |
| 11:34 | <roc> | but 3.6prealpha1 is what the cool kids are using these days :-) |
| 11:35 | <annevk2> | so I hear, with a certain pref turned on rather than off :) |
| 11:36 | <takkaria> | roc: what exciting stuff is planned for firefox.next? |
| 11:38 | <roc> | Henri's HTML5 parser is on trunk, I assume that's what Anne was referring to |
| 11:38 | <roc> | hopefully we'll turn it on for FF.next |
| 11:39 | <roc> | well, I'm sure we'll turn it on, the question is whether we'll turn it off after we see what it does to the Web :-) |
| 11:39 | <takkaria> | hehe |
| 11:39 | <roc> | multiple backgrounds is already on trunk |
| 11:39 | <takkaria> | is there anyone looking at webforms stuff? |
| 11:40 | <roc> | someone is looking at file upload |
| 11:40 | <roc> | I'm not sure what that plan is |
| 11:41 | <roc> | Jonas is working on XBL2, I suspect we may try to build new web forms stuff on top of that |
| 11:41 | <roc> | <video poster> is on trunk |
| 11:41 | <hsivonen> | fun. text-indent makes WebKit indent the video controller |
| 11:41 | <hsivonen> | in both Chrome and Safari |
| 11:42 | <roc> | lots of other stuff is going on |
| 11:44 | <hsivonen> | hmm. looks like Cortado doesn't work right in IE with two instances on the same page :-( |
| 11:44 | <takkaria> | roc: sounds cool, I should start reading the mozilla planet again sometime |
| 11:45 | <hsivonen> | hmm. maybe I should try to get my blog feed on planet so that I could advertise the HTML5 parser once the Windows crasher patch and comment end bang state are in |
| 11:49 | <hsivonen> | how are Xiph Cortado and Wikimedia Cortado related? I suspect the Wikimedia Cortado worked better than the Xiph one in IE. |
| 11:50 | <hsivonen> | I think it's important to promote Ogg-only video also for IE, so that people don't need to use royalty-encumbered fallback formats, but it seems Cortado isn't quite ready for prime time |
| 12:26 | <Lachy> | has anyone researched the h.264 patents to find out when they're all due to expire, which would make h.264 royalty free? |
| 12:26 | <Lachy> | I checked the MPEG-LA patent list earlier, but they only mention the expiration dates for the few that already expired. The others just list patent numbers |
| 12:28 | <gsnedders> | Seeming the first draft was 1999, I would guess no earlier than 17 years after that |
| 12:28 | <gsnedders> | The final draft was 2003, so potentially 2020 |
| 12:28 | <hsivonen> | hey, that's before 2022 :-) |
| 12:28 | <gsnedders> | :) |
| 12:29 | <roc> | the problem is that there will be an H.265 or whatever |
| 12:29 | <roc> | hsivonen: yes, you should definitely be on planet.mozilla.org |
| 12:30 | <Lachy> | roc, are you just speculating about h.265, or is there already work in progress? |
| 12:30 | <roc> | I'm speculating |
| 12:30 | <gsnedders> | Lachy: "under study for potential development" according to wikipedia |
| 12:30 | <hsivonen> | has On2 said anything about why they made the VP3 stuff free but not VP6? |
| 12:30 | <roc> | why wouldn't there be? |
| 12:31 | hsivonen | wonders if On2 will provide nicely packaged Theora encoding solutions |
| 12:31 | <Lachy> | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H.265 |
| 12:32 | <Lachy> | gsnedders, I thought the patent term was 20 years, not 17 |
| 12:32 | <gsnedders> | Lachy: It depends on country. Don't expect me to remember the max :) |
| 12:34 | <Lachy> | "Patents must be granted in all "fields of technology," although exceptions for certain public interests are allowed (Art. 27.2 and 27.3 [1]) and must be enforceable for at least 20 years (Art 33)." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TRIPS#The_requirements_of_TRIPS |
| 12:34 | <Lachy> | so that applies to all countries that have agreed with TRIPS |
| 12:55 | <hsivonen> | quick black-box poking suggests the XMLSerializer in WebKit is already an HTML serializer when applied to HTML |
| 12:57 | <hsivonen> | what's the right mailing list for XMLSerializer? www-dom? |
| 12:59 | <Lachy> | I don't see how www-dom would be relevant |
| 12:59 | <hsivonen> | what ARIA cases is chaals referring to here: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-dom/2009AprJun/0009.html ? |
| 13:01 | <Lachy> | no idea. Unfortunately, he's not around for me to ask him |
| 13:01 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen: about XMLSerializer, lacking any better place, I'd say public-webapps, |
| 13:02 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: ok. |
| 13:02 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: btw, I ran the V.nu deployment script yesterday |
| 13:03 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen: cool |
| 13:03 | <MikeSmith> | I'll see if I can get the W3C instance synced up too |
| 13:48 | <Lachy> | Hixie, is QUOTA_EXCEEDED_ERR used in webstorage defined as a constant anywhere for DOMException? |
| 13:57 | <Lachy> | does anyone here working on WebKit know if you enforce any disk quota limits for localStorage and sessionStorage? |
| 13:58 | <Lachy> | I just tried testing it with an infinite loop that keeps storing data until it throws an exception, but it just kept going |
| 14:00 | <Rik|work> | Lachy: I've seen bugs to fix that |
| 14:00 | <Rik|work> | don't know if they're closed or not |
| 14:02 | <Rik|work> | Lachy: https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=22765 |
| 14:02 | <Rik|work> | and https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=26155 |
| 14:03 | <Lachy> | Rik|work, ok. I'd recommend also setting a quota for sessionStorage |
| 14:35 | <gsnedders> | annevk2: yt? |
| 14:35 | <gsnedders> | annevk2: What's "ouch" about http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/REC-DOM-Level-3-Core-20040407/core.html#baseURIs-Considerations? |
| 14:51 | <hsivonen> | hmm. looks like Daily Motion has some borked browser sniffing |
| 14:52 | <hsivonen> | Telling me to install Firefox in order to see video without proprietary plug-ins |
| 14:52 | <hsivonen> | when I'm using Firefox |
| 14:52 | <annevk2> | gsnedders, liveness |
| 14:53 | <hsivonen> | oops. I've overridden my User-Agent string |
| 14:53 | <gsnedders> | annevk2: Ah, OK. So nothing more. |
| 14:53 | <annevk2> | maybe |
| 14:53 | <gsnedders> | Heh. Opera's the only browser that ever treats it as live, though we have bugs. |
| 14:56 | <annevk2> | hsivonen, willing to write the spec for XMLSerializer and DOMParser? |
| 14:57 | <hsivonen> | annevk2: can't volunteer right now :-( |
| 15:12 | <gsnedders> | href in the DOM on HTMLAnchorElement doesn't give the absolute URL, right? The only way to get that is to recompose the decomposition attributes? |
| 15:16 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: It gives the absolute URL |
| 15:19 | <gsnedders> | The spec says that it reflects the content attribute though… |
| 15:19 | <gsnedders> | Hixie? |
| 15:20 | <annevk2> | gsnedders, yes, but it reflects a URL value |
| 15:20 | <annevk2> | gsnedders, see the definition of reflect |
| 15:23 | <gsnedders> | annevk2: Ah, right. I need to actually read beyond the note |
| 15:23 | <jgraham> | annevk2: The definition of reflect could be improved to note that there are special cases wwhere the behaviour is more complex |
| 15:25 | <annevk2> | hmm, that's just an introductory note, it doesn't define anything |
| 15:26 | <annevk2> | but euh, I'm not the editor :) |
| 15:29 | <MikeSmith> | attribute [ReflectURL] DOMString src; |
| 15:29 | <MikeSmith> | [[ |
| 15:29 | <MikeSmith> | This indicates that the src DOM attribute reflects a content attribute |
| 15:29 | <MikeSmith> | named src, but that the result is a completed URL, not the raw |
| 15:29 | <MikeSmith> | attribute value: |
| 15:29 | <MikeSmith> | ]] |
| 15:29 | <annevk2> | I'd think you want [Reflect=URL] |
| 15:30 | <annevk2> | 'cause all "reflect" thingies have something in common, but some have specific types |
| 15:31 | <annevk2> | (e.g. they all create a new content attribute if none exists) |
| 15:31 | <MikeSmith> | annevk2: I guess they didn't do it that way maybe because of [Reflect=URL] would imply there's a content attribute named "URL" |
| 15:32 | <MikeSmith> | because they're also doing, attribute [Reflect=class] DOMString className; |
| 15:39 | <annevk2> | I see |
| 15:40 | <gsnedders> | annevk2: Is there any spec which says http://t/imported/annevk/xml/xml-base/004.xht should pass? |
| 17:47 | <Philip`> | Is Perl installed on OS X by default? |
| 17:48 | <Philip`> | Hmm, sounds like it is |
| 17:50 | Philip` | wonders why somebody gets a "perl: No match." error |
| 17:51 | <Philip`> | Oh, it's because they're using csh and writing "[...]" on the command line |
| 17:55 | <Hixie> | Lachy: web dom core iirc |
| 18:17 | <gsnedders> | MikeSmith: yt? |
| 18:51 | <MikeSmith> | gsnedders: I'm here now |
| 18:52 | <MikeSmith> | for a while at least |
| 19:12 | <jgraham> | MikeSmith and gsnedders are like star crossed lovers |
| 19:14 | <MikeSmith> | heh |
| 19:54 | gsnedders | wonders where he can buy a birthday card, and what he should get as a present. |
| 19:56 | <Philip`> | gsnedders: A birthday card shop |
| 19:56 | <gsnedders> | Philip`: Located where in Linköping, at what address? |
| 19:56 | <Philip`> | gsnedders: A tea towel |
| 19:56 | <takkaria> | gsnedders: make your own |
| 19:56 | <Philip`> | gsnedders: I don't know - walk around and look for one that has thousands of birthday cards in the front window |
| 19:56 | <gsnedders> | takkaria: Me!? |
| 19:57 | <gsnedders> | takkaria: Do I look creative? |
| 19:57 | <takkaria> | if you write code, you're at least somewhat creative |
| 19:57 | <gsnedders> | Do I look as if I have artist capabilities? |
| 19:59 | takkaria | shrugs |
| 20:01 | <takkaria> | looks can be and often are deceiving |
| 20:16 | <jgraham> | gsnBokia sells some cards if you don't fancy DIYing it |
| 20:16 | <jgraham> | Oh he left. That's why tab did nothing |
| 21:46 | <Hixie> | WebSocket ports and schemes; text/html and application/xhtml+xml; text/cache-manifest; text/event-stream; application/microdata+json and application/microdata+bibtex |
| 21:46 | <Hixie> | anything else need registering with IANA? |
| 21:48 | <annevk2> | text/javascript update? |
| 21:50 | <annevk2> | someone needs to finish http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hoehrmann-javascript-scheme |
| 21:51 | <annevk2> | ideally the character encoding stuff would be fixed at the IETF/IANA/Unicode-level |
| 21:54 | <annevk2> | rel values needs some more coordination prolly |
| 21:56 | <annevk2> | is text/uri-list defined? |
| 21:57 | <annevk2> | only as experimental in http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2483 afaict |
| 21:59 | <Hixie> | i think i'll leave those for now |
| 21:59 | <Hixie> | but yeah |
| 21:59 | <Hixie> | thanks |
| 23:34 | <sayrer> | lol, hixie sent "suitable" to whatwg and "consensus" to w3c |
| 23:34 | <sayrer> | hahaha |