| 00:23 | <ment> | correct me if i'm wrong, but tokenizer in data state with string '</* xxx>' on input returns a comment token with text '* xxx' ? |
| 00:52 | <MikeSmith> | ment: yeah, as far as I can see |
| 01:15 | <mpilgrim> | krijnh: fixed the missing </ul>s, thanks |
| 05:44 | <MikeSmith> | JoePeck: nice posting about the Web Inspector changes |
| 05:45 | <JoePeck> | MikeSmith: thanks! |
| 06:04 | <MikeSmith> | JoePeck: for the Web Inspector wishlist: https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=24529 |
| 06:05 | <JoePeck> | MikeSmith: a man after my own heart. I'm going to be doing some work with application cache for my masters project. I'll have my eye on what I will want to display with Application Cache |
| 06:09 | <MikeSmith> | JoePeck: troubleshooting Application Cache problems seems to be a particular pain point for developers |
| 06:10 | <MikeSmith> | e.g., the message that David Kilzer cites there |
| 06:10 | <othermaciej> | definitely a place where tools can help |
| 06:10 | <JoePeck> | MikeSmith: yah, my first 30 minutes with it and I found a nasty issue with WebKit that nearly stopped me dead in my tracks => https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=29690 |
| 06:12 | <MikeSmith> | wow |
| 06:12 | <MikeSmith> | it doesn't seem like that could be per spec |
| 06:13 | MikeSmith | wonders what other browsers do for this case |
| 09:35 | <MikeSmith> | some useful stuff at http://miketaylr.com/ |
| 09:35 | <Dashiva> | Hey Mike, do you know the reason Incubation Group is abbreviated XG? |
| 09:35 | <MikeSmith> | e.g., http://miketaylr.com/code/input-type-attr.html |
| 09:36 | <MikeSmith> | Dashiva: you already know the answer to that question, right? |
| 09:37 | <Dashiva> | No. Or at least I don't know it's the actual answer. |
| 09:37 | <MikeSmith> | the answer is that anything starting with X in is automatically good |
| 09:38 | <MikeSmith> | oh, and one other thing: W3C also already had something called Interest Group, which laid claim to "IG" |
| 09:38 | <MikeSmith> | one of those two answers is the real answer |
| 09:39 | <MikeSmith> | I suggested XXXG, but that got voted down |
| 09:41 | <MikeSmith> | that was my nickname in elementary school: Michael "triple-X O.G." Smith... but I shortened that nickname to to just "(tm)" |
| 09:41 | <MikeSmith> | so my (tm) actually stands for "triple-X O.G.", similar to the way XG stands for "Incubator Group" |
| 09:41 | <Dashiva> | I... see... |
| 09:42 | <Dashiva> | And what does O.G. stand for? |
| 09:44 | <Philip`> | Maybe it's XG because you put eggs in an incubator, and X sound like eggs |
| 09:46 | <MikeSmith> | Dashiva: not sure what O.G. stands for -- all I know is that's just what people called me: What up, O.G.? or What up, thug|player|holmes etc. |
| 09:49 | <MikeSmith> | Philip`: you sharp, O.G. -- Despite my lame attempts at misdirection, you saw right into the true reason |
| 09:49 | <MikeSmith> | Philip`: when you can snatch the pebble from my hand, it will be time for you leave |
| 09:50 | <MikeSmith> | (and after you walk the rice paper without leaving any footprints, and lift the red-hot iron pot with your forearms to get branded with the Tiger and Dragon) |
| 09:51 | <MikeSmith> | 俺の話を聞け! |
| 09:51 | <Dashiva> | 俺は誰だと思ってる！ |
| 09:51 | <Philip`> | That sounds like far too much effort |
| 09:52 | Philip` | poisons MikeSmith's fish |
| 09:53 | <jgraham> | I think it is quite clear MikeSmith has had his fish poisoned already |
| 09:53 | <Dashiva> | The kanji for poison looks like 'mom' and 'vegetable' |
| 09:53 | <MikeSmith> | morning-glory seeds |
| 09:53 | <Dashiva> | The conclusion is left to the reader |
| 09:56 | <MikeSmith> | alright all y'all gangster lean, time for me to go |
| 09:56 | <MikeSmith> | back on later |
| 09:57 | <erlehmann_> | 博は、この衛星の言語です |
| 09:58 | <Dashiva> | That sounds like it came through Google |
| 09:58 | <erlehmann_> | :D |
| 09:58 | <Dashiva> | I'm not sure what the original was... |
| 09:59 | <erlehmann_> | Dashiva, i input "moon speak" into google and it put out 満月を話す, but that seems to mean "speaking moon" |
| 10:00 | <Dashiva> | So you tried with... "Dr. moon language" or something? |
| 10:01 | <Philip`> | 숍訊昱穿! |
| 10:03 | <erlehmann_> | Dashiva, "wtf is this moon language" なった |
| 10:04 | <Dashiva> | wtf, how does wtf become 博 |
| 10:08 | jgraham | is glad that hs left his sense of logic at the door |
| 10:23 | <erlehmann_> | Dashiva, what does this glyph mean? |
| 10:25 | <Dashiva> | http://www.df.lth.se/cgi-bin/j-e/euc/inline/dokanji?index=t&ivalue=476e&; |
| 10:25 | <Dashiva> | See for yourself :) |
| 10:25 | <erlehmann> | win acclaim !! |
| 10:29 | <erlehmann> | ٪) |
| 10:30 | <Dashiva> | http://cdn.okcimg.com/blog/mofo_mysteries/American-Geniuses.png |
| 10:30 | <Dashiva> | Percentage of people in each state who consider themselves geniuses |
| 10:31 | <erlehmann> | YOU ARE A SCARY MAN WHO IS SCARING ME IN THE FACE. |
| 10:33 | <Philip`> | ...according to an online dating site |
| 10:34 | <Philip`> | in which there is clearly no incentive to say things you don't believe |
| 10:36 | <Dashiva> | If you try building a relationship based on being a genius, I think you'll be busted pretty soon |
| 10:38 | <nessy> | you'd be surprised - some ppl are geniuses at faking |
| 10:38 | <Dashiva> | Are they really faking then? |
| 10:38 | <nessy> | depends on your pov :) |
| 12:04 | <smaug_> | is html5 somehow in "last call"? |
| 12:05 | <smaug_> | or what does the "Last call for comments" mean |
| 12:05 | <hsivonen> | smaug_: it's in LC at the WHATWG but not at the W3C |
| 12:05 | <hsivonen> | smaug_: it's not at all clear what it means |
| 12:06 | <hsivonen> | smaug_: other than making the point that Hixie kept the schedule he made in 2006 or so |
| 12:07 | <smaug_> | is the assumption that the draft will be in last call a year or so? |
| 12:07 | <hsivonen> | smaug_: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/TIMETABLE |
| 12:07 | <smaug_> | though, if it is not clear what "last call" means, that is not very relevant question |
| 12:07 | <hsivonen> | smaug_: more like 3 years, it seems |
| 12:08 | <jgraham> | hsivonen: It means that we briefly reached 0 outstanding, non-escalated, issues |
| 12:08 | <Dashiva> | In other words, if you have unadressed issues you need to speak up, because they aren't on the todo list |
| 12:08 | <jgraham> | which makes sense as a definition of last call |
| 12:09 | smaug_ | needs to read the whole draft at some point |
| 12:10 | <smaug_> | currently it is still in a state that (almost) whenever one implements something, problems are found also in the spec |
| 12:10 | <smaug_> | but that is ok |
| 12:10 | <jgraham> | Right, that is more or less expected I think |
| 12:10 | <smaug_> | since it is just a draft |
| 12:11 | <Dashiva> | LC is for getting the theoretical issues in place, CR for the real problems :) |
| 12:12 | <jgraham> | Don't most groups have like a three week LC period? |
| 12:12 | <jgraham> | (supposedly) |
| 12:12 | <smaug_> | but 2-3 years should be enough for reading the draft. Unless it grows up exponentially. |
| 12:12 | <Dashiva> | jgraham: Repeatedly |
| 12:13 | <hsivonen> | It seems to me that the main point of the WHATWG LC is that it's the HTML WG chairs who are letting the schedule slip--not the editor |
| 12:13 | <Dashiva> | Not sure what the average number of iterations is, but only a single LC is rare from what I've heard |
| 12:13 | <jgraham> | smaug_: At this point I would expect the size to remain basically stable |
| 12:15 | <Dashiva> | Barring sections being split out into separate specs |
| 12:17 | <jgraham> | hsivonen: Arguably that is the point of giving it a name like "last call". But the fact is that Hixie did stick to his schedule. Which is pretty impressive really |
| 12:18 | <Dashiva> | I wonder how much overtime he did towards the end :) |
| 12:18 | <jgraham> | and it was a state-triggered status change not a date-triggered change |
| 12:18 | <hsivonen> | jgraham: yeah, Hixie sticking to his schedule is impressive |
| 12:18 | <erlehmann> | i'll look forward to 2022 then \o/ |
| 12:19 | <Dashiva> | Why, are you a test suite fanatic? :) |
| 12:20 | <jgraham> | Dashiva: I wonder how much overtime he would be owed if he was paid extra for time in excess of 40 hours/week as per standard (not contract-changed) Swedish law |
| 12:22 | <Dashiva> | He probably has a salary |
| 12:22 | <jgraham> | (or however it works, I don't really understand it, but for the sake of argument lets assume he was supposed to do 40 hours/week Mon-Fri and got overtime for unsociable hours like weekends and excess work) |
| 12:22 | <jgraham> | Dashiva: Yeah, I'm sure he does :) This is purely hypothetical :) |
| 12:47 | <zcorpan_> | going to file:/// gives me an xml parse error in firefox :-( |
| 12:48 | <jgraham> | zcorpan_: Well you should make sure that your root directory is well formed then :) |
| 12:49 | <zcorpan_> | <td sortable-data="2.zip"> |
| 12:50 | <zcorpan_> | where the funny character is a U+0003 |
| 12:51 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan_: XML FTW! |
| 12:51 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan_: FWIW, having the directory listings be XHTML is also a problem with FTP |
| 12:52 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan_: since the XHTML code path doesn't allow manual charset override or something along those lines |
| 12:53 | <zcorpan_> | wonder where that zip file came from |
| 12:53 | zcorpan_ | hopes it was harmless to remove it |
| 12:54 | jgraham | reproduces problem |
| 12:55 | <jgraham> | I guess we can add whoever is responsible for that page to the bozo list :) |
| 12:56 | <zcorpan_> | we have a bozo list? |
| 12:56 | <zcorpan_> | isn't it easier to assume that everyone is a bozo until proven otherwise? |
| 12:57 | <hsivonen> | I bet the person who wrote the directory list generation code wrote it for text/html and someone else made it application/xhtml+xml later. |
| 12:57 | <jgraham> | zcorpan_: That is probably more efficient, yes |
| 12:58 | jgraham | assumes someone will file a bug |
| 13:17 | <Philip`> | zcorpan_: It's impossible to prove that someone is not a bozo |
| 13:17 | <Philip`> | You can only demonstrate the positive |
| 13:17 | <Philip`> | The only way to not be a bozo is to not use XML :-) |
| 13:18 | <jgraham> | Philip`: Maybe that was what tim was getting at |
| 13:20 | jgraham | suggests t-shirts reading "XML is a strange game. The only winning move is to not play" |
| 13:20 | <gsnedders|work> | jgraham: That string is really too long for a t-shirt |
| 13:20 | <Philip`> | Get a bigger t-shirt |
| 13:20 | gsnedders|work | would rather go for: "XML: FAIL" |
| 13:21 | <gsnedders|work> | (in red) |
| 13:21 | <Philip`> | (on light yellow) |
| 13:22 | gsnedders|work | is tempted to get that |
| 13:22 | <jgraham> | gsnedders|work:It is shorter than http://store.xkcd.com/xkcd/#LinuxCheatShirt |
| 13:23 | <hsivonen> | the problem with t-shirts that make statements is that most of the time, it's too cold to wear only a t-shirt without covering the message |
| 13:23 | <hsivonen> | there should be woolly sweaters with messages on them |
| 13:23 | <gsnedders|work> | hsivonen: goto SPAIN |
| 13:25 | <AryehGregor> | Dashiva, why does that map color-code low percentages as red and high as green? High percentages would seem to be worse. |
| 13:26 | <Philip`> | AryehGregor: High is better, because it indicates the state is more geniuser |
| 13:27 | <TabAtkins> | hsivonen: Yeah, move somewhere hot. We've done a barbecue during Xmas the past two years. |
| 13:28 | <TabAtkins> | Everyone in shorts and tshirts, enjoying a cool 75F afternoon on the patio. |
| 13:28 | <AryehGregor> | hsivonen, where do you live? You can get by with just a T-shirt here for at least half the year. |
| 13:29 | <AryehGregor> | Philip`, since the correct figure is probably less than 1% by any reasonable definition, I'd say that a lower number is indicative of marginally more sanity. |
| 13:29 | <AryehGregor> | Kind of like how what, 90 or 95% of people consider themselves to be more intelligent than the median person? |
| 13:29 | <erlehmann> | gsnedders|work, you surely meant <xml:fail/> |
| 13:30 | <gsnedders|work> | erlehmann: But that's using someone else's namespace! |
| 13:30 | <erlehmann> | hsivonen, that is so true. i was wearing a mozille shirt yesterday. and a pullover. and a jacket. |
| 13:31 | <gsnedders|work> | erlehmann: And that means the fail ends immediately! |
| 13:31 | <erlehmann> | wargarbl |
| 13:31 | <hsivonen> | AryehGregor: Helsinki, Finland |
| 13:32 | <erlehmann> | i wish mozilla would give better parsing errors |
| 13:32 | <AryehGregor> | hsivonen, oh, no wonder. |
| 13:32 | <erlehmann> | hate them hate them hate them |
| 13:32 | <erlehmann> | presentation is sooo 1995 |
| 13:41 | <AryehGregor> | Can't people at least see your brilliant T-shirts when you're indoors? |
| 13:44 | <hsivonen> | AryehGregor: Usually indoors isn't warm enough for just a t-shirt. (Even though in Finland indoors is usually more t-shirt-friendly than in places where there's always cold AC.) |
| 13:44 | <AryehGregor> | You don't have central heating in Finland, or what? |
| 13:44 | <hsivonen> | AryehGregor: we do |
| 13:44 | <hsivonen> | very central in fact |
| 13:44 | <AryehGregor> | Maybe you guys are so used to being cold that you can't be bothered to keep the temperature decently warm indoors? |
| 13:45 | <hsivonen> | AryehGregor: on the contrary |
| 13:45 | <hsivonen> | AryehGregor: I often feel that hotel rooms and conference centers abroad aren't warm enough |
| 13:45 | <Dashiva> | hsivonen is just cold in general |
| 13:47 | hsivonen | still hasn't decided what the right strategy for choosing a hotel in California for December is: choosing a hotel with bad but bearable winter proofness or a hotel with unknown winter proofness |
| 13:49 | <jgraham> | Sweden at least has very good insulation and good heating. I still wear a jumper indoors though |
| 13:50 | <jgraham> | (typically not a thick one like you want outside for the winter but still...) |
| 13:54 | <TabAtkins> | Hotels are always cold, actually. Everywhere in the US. I dunno why. |
| 13:54 | <jgraham> | Because they are big and expensive to heat but people don't realise they will be cold until they have already booked? |
| 13:55 | <AryehGregor> | Over here (New York City), in most places you never have to wear a jacket indoors. If you do, people complain bitterly about how cold it is. |
| 13:58 | <hsivonen> | I generally assume a jacket indoors isn't needed in Finland but is needed in California due to AC. |
| 13:59 | jgraham | is actually quite cold indoors right now |
| 14:03 | <AryehGregor> | When I was in California, I mostly didn't need a jacket there, either. |
| 14:03 | <TabAtkins> | jgraham: No, they're *always* cold. Even down here in Houston, where it's always hot. If a hotel is hot it's because (a) the hotel is super-crappy or (b) the power is out. |
| 14:03 | <AryehGregor> | We were probably spending most of our time in different types of buildings, though. |
| 14:03 | <AryehGregor> | Also, I was in Berkeley, and even in the summer it doesn't need much air conditioning. Very temperate place. |
| 14:04 | <AryehGregor> | (Climatically, I mean. Not, for instance, politically.) |
| 14:05 | <AryehGregor> | (I could swear that every second stop sign had something written under "STOP". "STOP war", "STOP eating animals", "STOP Bush", . . . |
| 14:05 | <AryehGregor> | ) |
| 14:14 | <ment> | http://www.chrishiggins.com/blog/archives/images/portland_stop_hammer_time.jpg |
| 14:24 | <ment> | in the section 9.2.4.10 Tag name state, where are the lowercase letters? |
| 14:25 | <ment> | (reading from 27.10.09 draft, is there any newer version?) |
| 14:33 | <Dashiva> | ment: They are "everything else" |
| 14:34 | <Dashiva> | Uppercase are called out because they have to be lowercased |
| 14:34 | <ment> | oh i see. thanks. |
| 14:35 | <Famic> | is it too soon to create sites using html5 or is it ok ? |
| 14:35 | <Dashiva> | Yes and no |
| 14:35 | <Dashiva> | Some features work fine, others haven't been implemented yet |
| 14:36 | <Famic> | what about just using new tags instead of divs to organise the contents ? |
| 14:36 | <Dashiva> | As long as you use the workaround for old IE, that should be fine |
| 14:36 | <Famic> | I'm thinking section, article, footer, time, etc |
| 14:37 | <Famic> | you mean html5shiv ? |
| 14:37 | <Famic> | seems not. What workaround then ? |
| 14:37 | <Dashiva> | That's the one |
| 14:38 | <Famic> | ok so I can safely use those tags instead of divs and hell won't break loose on my site ? |
| 14:38 | <Dashiva> | Well, not from those tags at least |
| 14:39 | <Famic> | kewl then :) |
| 15:06 | <crash\> | disabled on <fieldset> is good, but why not also on <form>? |
| 15:06 | <zcorpan_> | what's the use case? |
| 15:08 | <crash\> | <from disable> and enabling it via scripting |
| 15:08 | <crash\> | for example |
| 15:08 | <crash\> | +d |
| 15:08 | <crash\> | since some element may not grouped by <fieldset> |
| 15:09 | <zcorpan_> | why would you disable a whole form? |
| 15:09 | <crash\> | after sending a form |
| 15:11 | <zcorpan_> | you want to disable a form when the user clicks submit? |
| 15:14 | <crash\> | for example |
| 15:23 | <erlehmann> | crash\, disable the submit button instead. problem solved. |
| 15:25 | <crash\> | true, just a question :) |
| 15:45 | <myakura> | lol http://f.hatena.ne.jp/edvakf/20091030004848 |
| 16:11 | <gsnedders|work> | Apparently I have a scary laugh |
| 16:12 | <TabAtkins> | It fits you. |
| 16:12 | <gsnedders|work> | Listening to goth metal, laughing scarily, and working. And annoying jgraham from time to time. |
| 16:13 | <TabAtkins> | I've got something that sounds like goth disco. That's about the closest I get. The rest of my music is hard rock and house, mostly. |
| 16:14 | <gsnedders|work> | goth disco? |
| 16:14 | gsnedders|work | is curious now |
| 16:14 | <TabAtkins> | The Rasmus. |
| 16:14 | <gsnedders|work> | (Sounds like something I wouldn't like, but it sounds interesting nevertheless) |
| 16:31 | <gsnedders|work> | Gah. Only one Kittie album on Spotify. |
| 16:35 | <daedb> | Kittie still exists? |
| 16:35 | <gsnedders|work> | daedb: Yeah |
| 16:37 | <daedb> | I haven't heard anything from them in about 8 years... |
| 16:41 | <gsnedders|work> | daedb: Heh. The only album by them on Spotify is from this year. :) |
| 16:41 | <gsnedders|work> | (It's all right, but I prefer some of their older stuff more.) |
| 17:13 | <daedb> | gsnedders|work: Their new album sounds pretty decent, better than I expected :) |
| 17:21 | <gsnedders|work> | What var foo = "bar"; does within a with statement depends upon the context in which the with statement is executed. |
| 17:21 | <gsnedders|work> | Um, OK. |
| 18:32 | <gsnedders|work> | hsivonen: yt? |
| 18:34 | <gsnedders|work> | hsivonen: I'm trying to get the parser (in Java) to parse from a string to a DOM |
| 18:42 | <Philip`> | gsnedders|work: What problems are you having? |
| 18:42 | <gsnedders|work> | Philip`: I have no idea how to start |
| 18:44 | gsnedders|work | is trying to use JRuby, but that's starting to seem a bit weird |
| 18:46 | <Philip`> | HtmlDocumentBuilder parser = new HtmlDocumentBuilder(XmlViolationPolicy.ALTER_INFOSET); |
| 18:46 | <Philip`> | Reader reader = new StringReader(input); |
| 18:46 | <Philip`> | I think that might do it |
| 18:46 | <Philip`> | Document doc = parser.parse(reader); |
| 18:47 | <Philip`> | (Not tested, though) |
| 18:52 | <gsnedders|work> | There's something whacky going on with JRuby |
| 18:52 | <gsnedders|work> | gah |
| 18:52 | <gsnedders|work> | Writing Java for the first time in around five years is starting to look like a good solution |
| 19:01 | <Philip`> | Writing Java's not too bad, as long as you've got an autocompleting IDE :-) |
| 19:01 | <gsnedders|work> | And you have a vague clue of the language |
| 19:02 | <Philip`> | and it seems likely to cause fewer layers of problems than JRuby |
| 19:02 | <gsnedders|work> | Which I don't really have any more :) |
| 19:02 | <gsnedders|work> | Philip`: Indeed |
| 19:02 | <Philip`> | It's just like Javascript with types |
| 19:02 | gsnedders|work | could also head out to get food, which would be nice |
| 19:02 | <gsnedders|work> | and speed, that's another thing it has on Javascript |
| 19:02 | <Philip`> | so you must have a vague clue :-) |
| 19:03 | <Philip`> | It only has speed because JS implementations were rubbish |
| 19:04 | <Philip`> | All you need to do is write JS very carefully in a restricted subset that looks a lot like Java, and then use V8 and it'll go fast |
| 19:04 | <Philip`> | (from what I've heard) |
| 19:04 | <gsnedders|work> | So we can have HTML parsers in Javascript? :P |
| 19:05 | <Philip`> | String manipulation probably isn't part of that restricted subset :-p |
| 19:08 | <gsnedders|work> | Wow, yui2's git repo is huge |
| 19:27 | <TabAtkins> | >_< Philip`, you should know very well that javascript is nothing like Java. They both share a C-like syntax, that's all. |
| 19:33 | <Philip`> | TabAtkins: They have variables and functions and strings and numbers and stuff too |
| 19:34 | <TabAtkins> | By that logic, nearly all programming languages are basically Java. |
| 19:34 | <Philip`> | Sure |
| 19:34 | <TabAtkins> | I challenge your discriminatory abilities, and will not send out for anything without an extremely detailed description of what I want. |
| 19:35 | <TabAtkins> | Otherwise I'll end up with a yellow-painted apple instead of the banana I asked for. |
| 19:38 | <Philip`> | You're focusing far too much on differences and far too little on similarities |
| 19:38 | <Philip`> | You should be glad if I bring you a yellow apple, and not staples or clouds or many other things |
| 19:47 | <ment> | how would be parsed attributes in this link? <a title= class=link href=http://slashdot.org>; |
| 19:47 | <ment> | "title" => " class=link", right? |
| 20:00 | <erlehmann> | ment, what are you trying to accomplish? |
| 20:02 | <ment> | erlehmann: only checking if it's the right behaviour |
| 20:05 | <erlehmann> | http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/tokenization.html#attribute-name-state |
| 20:05 | <erlehmann> | so wo go from attribute name state to before attribute value state |
| 20:05 | <erlehmann> | then we consume a space character |
| 20:06 | <erlehmann> | and stay in the … seems you are right. thats counter-intuitive |
| 20:06 | <ment> | i know, i've clicked through it too. but i've also seen <a attr= otherattr= href=...> in the "wild" |
| 20:07 | <erlehmann> | Hixie, can you explain the rationale of handling attributes like this? isn't this more likely to break existing content then the alternative? |
| 20:08 | <erlehmann> | i would have expected that a space triggers before attribute name state or something |
| 20:09 | <erlehmann> | ment, i guess it has something to do with <span class=foo bar baz> |
| 20:10 | <erlehmann> | but still :( |
| 20:11 | <erlehmann> | weird, as everything in here |
| 20:11 | <ment> | class=foo bar baz would get parsed as class="foo" bar baz |
| 20:11 | <erlehmann> | just realized it too |
| 20:11 | <erlehmann> | 9.2.4.40 Attribute value (unquoted) state ends on a space |
| 20:14 | <erlehmann> | ment, how about sending that to the list? |
| 20:16 | <ment> | good idea |
| 20:18 | <gsnedders|work> | http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0D%0A%3Ca%20title%3D%20class%3Dlink%20href%3Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fslashdot.org%3E shows all browsers on my system doing the same |
| 20:18 | <gsnedders|work> | (and matching html5) |
| 20:20 | <erlehmann> | gsnedders|work, so ment and i are both dumb. |
| 20:22 | <erlehmann> | gsnedders|work, after the equals sign, are we in before attribute value state ? if so, what is done when encountering a space char? http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/tokenization.html#before-attribute-value-state |
| 20:22 | <gsnedders|work> | erlehmann: Stay in that state |
| 20:23 | <gsnedders|work> | Odd. |
| 20:23 | <gsnedders|work> | What does IE do? |
| 20:23 | <erlehmann> | well, then i'm confused |
| 20:23 | <gsnedders|work> | Oh, wait |
| 20:23 | <gsnedders|work> | No |
| 20:24 | <gsnedders|work> | That makes complete sense |
| 20:24 | <erlehmann> | care to elaborate? |
| 20:24 | <gsnedders|work> | consume "=" char in the attribute name state, change to before attribute value state. |
| 20:24 | <gsnedders|work> | consume " " in the before attribute value state, stay in same state. |
| 20:25 | <gsnedders|work> | consume "c" in the before attribute value state, create attribute whose name is "c", change to attribute value (unquoted) state |
| 20:25 | <gsnedders|work> | (nothing interesting happens…) |
| 20:26 | <gsnedders|work> | consume "k" in the attribute value (unquoted) state, append "k" to attribute value" |
| 20:26 | <gsnedders|work> | s/create attribute whose name is/set attribute value to/ |
| 20:26 | <erlehmann> | wait |
| 20:26 | <gsnedders|work> | consume " " in attribute value (unquoted) state, switch to before attribute name state |
| 20:26 | <gsnedders|work> | This matches all browsers |
| 20:28 | <erlehmann> | gsnedders|work, i can't follow you at the "c" consuming process. doesn't it match the "anything else" provision of section 9.2.4.37 ? |
| 20:28 | <gsnedders|work> | Yes |
| 20:28 | <gsnedders|work> | so you consume it, append it to the attribute value, and switch to that state |
| 20:28 | <gsnedders|work> | (make sure you evaluate the substituion I wrote above fixing a fairly major bug in what I wrote) |
| 20:29 | <erlehmann> | some day i will make a big poster of the HTML5 state machine |
| 20:29 | <erlehmann> | and put it on my wall |
| 20:30 | <erlehmann> | to confuse guests |
| 20:30 | <erlehmann> | right beside the openTTD airport state machine, just to see how simple handling airplanes is compared to this mess |
| 20:30 | <webben> | "a big poster of the HTML5 state machine" *Do Want* ;) |
| 20:30 | <ment> | hehe |
| 20:30 | <gsnedders|work> | s/big/very big/ |
| 20:31 | <gsnedders|work> | Sorry, I want to read it. |
| 21:08 | jgraham | wants the HTML5 state machine poster to be drawn by the xkcd guy |
| 21:09 | <TabAtkins> | jgraham: Randall Munroe. |
| 21:15 | <jgraham> | TabAtkins: Yeah I know but it is more fun to say "the xkcd guy" (and I guess more accessible) |
| 21:15 | <TabAtkins> | Makes sense. |
| 21:16 | <zcorpan> | there's http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/states10.png but it's out of date |
| 21:17 | <TabAtkins> | Holy crap. |
| 21:17 | <zcorpan> | Philip`: can you make a new one that's up to date? |
| 21:18 | <TabAtkins> | I'll bet that could be rearranged to make less line-crossing. |
| 21:19 | <TabAtkins> | I was pretty good at that one game where you had to rearrange nodes to create a planar graph. |
| 21:19 | <zcorpan> | TabAtkins: go for it |
| 21:20 | <TabAtkins> | I don't want to put in the effort to create the initial graph, though. If I was given something already created I'd spend the time to rearrange it. |
| 21:20 | <jgraham> | Imagine that, drawn by the xkcd guy, on our office wall |
| 21:20 | <Philip`> | I think http://philip.html5.org/misc/tokeniser_states.png is the latest version |
| 21:20 | <Philip`> | zcorpan: I can't, until I make loads of updates to my tokeniser |
| 21:20 | <jgraham> | In unrelated news I had a bizzare dream that TabAtkins was an oldish guy with a beard working at a supermarket checkout |
| 21:21 | <TabAtkins> | I'm young and a webdev, but I do have a beard. |
| 21:21 | <TabAtkins> | I haven't ever dreamed about any of you guys, though. |
| 21:22 | <Philip`> | http://philip.html5.org/misc/insertion-modes-3.png |
| 21:22 | <Philip`> | is the equivalent for the tree construction algorithm |
| 21:23 | <erlehmann> | jgraham, one can emulate his style pretty easily ;) |
| 21:23 | <Philip`> | (Red for parse errors, blue for EOF, I think) |
| 21:23 | <TabAtkins> | That one's not bad, Philip`. |
| 21:24 | <erlehmann> | TabAtkins, if you are good at that game (gplanarity?), better patch graphviz, so we all wan benefit from that |
| 21:25 | <TabAtkins> | Yeah, as soon as I mentioned it I went and googled for it. I'm playing it right now. |
| 21:25 | <Philip`> | (All these graphs are just generated automatically from OCaml encodings of the algorithms) |
| 21:25 | <TabAtkins> | Just plain Planarity. |
| 21:26 | <erlehmann> | Philip`, so can i have the .dot files to experiment a bit? |
| 21:26 | <TabAtkins> | Is it possible to prove planarity of a graph? |
| 21:26 | <Philip`> | What do you mean by "prove planarity"? |
| 21:26 | <TabAtkins> | I know Planarity just generates planar graphs and then scrambles the nodes. |
| 21:27 | <Philip`> | Prove that it is possible to find a 2d embedding that is planar, or something? |
| 21:27 | <TabAtkins> | Prove whether the graph can be made planar, or if there *must* be an edge-crossing (or alternately, if the graph must be 3-dimensional). |
| 21:27 | <erlehmann> | TabAtkins, you mean compute if a graph is planar just by having a node list, using some simple rule ? |
| 21:27 | <TabAtkins> | erlehmann: As long as "simple" is less than "throw a computer at it to bruteforce it", yes. |
| 21:27 | <hober> | oh, my friend John wrote planarity. |
| 21:28 | <TabAtkins> | hober: Awesome! Pass along my thanks. I whiled away several hours with that. In other news, I like untangling knots. |
| 21:29 | <Philip`> | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planarity_testing |
| 21:30 | <TabAtkins> | Ah, excellent. I feared it might be a bad problem. Wonderful. |
| 21:30 | <erlehmann> | oh, some guy i know took planarity, dumped the level files and wrote an application for a home-built multitouch-desk |
| 21:30 | <TabAtkins> | There are so many things that'll be great once surfaces get smart. |
| 21:31 | <TabAtkins> | If anyone's an RPG dork, there's a group writing a D&D 4e battlemat for MS's Surface. |
| 21:31 | <Philip`> | I hope they get smart enough to tell the difference between fingers and elbows and mugs |
| 21:31 | <erlehmann> | TabAtkins, if you have a multitouch display, install python-libavg and try this https://www.libavg.de/svn/trunk/avg_media/mtc/planarity/ |
| 21:31 | <TabAtkins> | I don't, but I'll bookmark that. |
| 21:32 | <erlehmann> | or otherwise, if you ever come to berlin, the local hacker space has one ;) |
| 21:32 | <TabAtkins> | Man, where were you guys like 4 years ago when I was in Berlin? |
| 21:32 | <erlehmann> | better: one of the local hackerspaces ;) |
| 21:32 | <TabAtkins> | (For like 2 days, but still.) |
| 21:33 | <erlehmann> | the c-base existed 4 years ago. this software did not. |
| 21:33 | <TabAtkins> | I'll look you up next time I hop the ocean. ^_^ |
| 21:33 | <Philip`> | erlehmann: I don't seem to have the .dot files for the tree constructor graph |
| 21:33 | <erlehmann> | \o/ |
| 21:34 | <erlehmann> | Philip`, aww sad thing. |
| 21:34 | <erlehmann> | i once used graphviz to document most of the relationships at our school |
| 21:34 | <TabAtkins> | That would be interesting. |
| 21:34 | <erlehmann> | that is, only the publicly known |
| 21:35 | <erlehmann> | for obvious reasons |
| 21:35 | <erlehmann> | wait, i can upload it (anonymiz'd) |
| 21:35 | <TabAtkins> | I have an urge to write something that will let me do planarity-type manipulation on arbitrary graphs. |
| 21:36 | <erlehmann> | oh shi- |
| 21:36 | <Philip`> | erlehmann: Hmm, but the code still compiles and produces a similar graph |
| 21:36 | <TabAtkins> | Should I learn <canvas> or just do it in DOM? |
| 21:36 | <TabAtkins> | (Probably the latter.) |
| 21:37 | <erlehmann> | TabAtkins, do it using SVG. |
| 21:37 | <TabAtkins> | I don't know SVG, though. I'd have to learn that too. |
| 21:37 | <TabAtkins> | Though I *have* been meaning to learn SVG anyway. |
| 21:37 | <TabAtkins> | And I'm certain it can do better curvy lines. |
| 21:37 | TabAtkins | will start on it this weekend. |
| 21:38 | <TabAtkins> | And then I'll make your graphs all pretty-like. |
| 21:39 | <Philip`> | erlehmann: Oh, whoops, I already had a .dot uploaded |
| 21:39 | <Philip`> | http://philip.html5.org/misc/insertion-modes-3.dot |
| 21:39 | <erlehmann> | thank dou |
| 21:39 | <Philip`> | Also there's http://philip.html5.org/misc/insertion-modes-4.dot (newly generated) which is a bit different |
| 21:39 | <erlehmann> | i won't do the relationship-thingy btw. realized it isnt so anonymous after all |
| 21:39 | <ment> | yeah, graphing relationships rulez |
| 21:39 | <ment> | http://ibawizard.net/~thement/sapphic_map.jpg |
| 21:41 | <erlehmann> | haha ment. mine is like that, only that the bubbles contain full names and i also denoted one-way-crush and ONS etc. |
| 21:42 | <ment> | how did you collect data? |
| 21:42 | <erlehmann> | wait, that are only girls names |
| 21:42 | <erlehmann> | lesbians \o/ |
| 21:43 | <TabAtkins> | Thus "sapphic" |
| 21:43 | <erlehmann> | ment, i know pretty much about relationships, but i asked around what could be deemed as „public“ |
| 21:43 | <ment> | ah, gossip-graph |
| 21:43 | <erlehmann> | didn't include for examble my best friends one night stand with some guy that only settled for her because … its a long story |
| 21:44 | <erlehmann> | no, i asked the people directly |
| 21:44 | <erlehmann> | was at a boarding school |
| 21:44 | <erlehmann> | and bored in class |
| 21:52 | <erlehmann> | Philip`, sadly only dot produces meaningful results. too much chatter among these lines |
| 21:57 | <erlehmann> | nice :) http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/8049/html5dot.png |
| 21:59 | <TabAtkins> | Way to kill everyone, erlehmann. |
| 22:00 | <erlehmann> | hai guys |
| 22:00 | <gsnedders> | erlehmann: killa. |
| 22:00 | <erlehmann> | as if |
| 22:00 | <TabAtkins> | Bastard. |
| 22:00 | <erlehmann> | "too much chatter", hehehe |
| 22:07 | <TabAtkins> | Am I being dumb, or is there a way to unset a radio button group? |
| 22:08 | <gsnedders> | TabAtkins: Via UI? Scripting? |
| 22:08 | <TabAtkins> | Scripting. |
| 22:09 | <gsnedders> | TabAtkins: loop over all radio buttons and set checked to false? |
| 22:09 | <gsnedders> | (or maybe it's called something different) |
| 22:10 | <gsnedders> | checked |
| 22:11 | <TabAtkins> | Doesn't appear to work. (I'm doing $("#foo input").removeAttr("checked").) |
| 22:11 | <gsnedders> | Not removeAttr |
| 22:11 | <TabAtkins> | Never mind, that does work. Bug in my code, then. |
| 22:11 | <TabAtkins> | jQuery, silly. |
| 22:11 | <gsnedders> | I meant the DOM attribute, not the content attribute |
| 22:11 | <gsnedders> | But I guess content attribute should work too |
| 22:12 | <TabAtkins> | I don't usually have to understand the difference with jq, luckily. |
| 22:13 | <TabAtkins> | So the answer is that I was being stupid. Forgot the # in front of #foo. |
| 22:13 | <gsnedders> | TabAtkins: jQuery doesn't save you from that |
| 22:14 | <gsnedders> | TabAtkins: You need a better framework obviously |
| 22:14 | <TabAtkins> | Obviously. One which understands what I mean when I mistype a selector. |
| 22:14 | <gsnedders> | Yeah, I mean it's AI that makes HTML error-handling awesome. |
| 22:15 | <TabAtkins> | Couldn't code without the cool, metallic feel of it wrapped around me. |
| 22:15 | <gsnedders> | And Windows nowadays has HAL, so AI is spreading across the world! |
| 22:16 | <Philip`> | "nowadays"? |
| 22:16 | <TabAtkins> | On that note, http://www.cleverbot.com/ is the best chatterbot I've ever seen. |
| 22:16 | <Philip`> | Windows NT always had HAL |
| 22:16 | <gsnedders> | Philip`: I know. |
| 22:16 | <gsnedders> | Philip`: But in terms of widely-used releases, only two releases ago. |
| 22:17 | <Philip`> | Or, in all releases within the past decade |
| 22:17 | <gsnedders> | Philip`: What about ME? |
| 22:17 | <Philip`> | That doesn't exist |
| 22:18 | <roc> | dot can output SVG |
| 22:19 | <Philip`> | Like http://philip.html5.org/misc/insertion-modes-3.svg |
| 22:19 | <Philip`> | but the text overlaps the lines :-( |
| 22:20 | <TabAtkins> | Why don't I get scrollbars when I view that? (In Chrome.) |
| 22:21 | <roc> | because Webkit follows a part of the SVG spec that makes no sense |
| 22:21 | <roc> | although I thought we got the spec changed |
| 22:21 | <TabAtkins> | I see. So I need to bug that, I suppose. |
| 22:22 | <roc> | I seem to recall a bug on it, but I may be wrong |
| 22:22 | <roc> | Philip`: works for me, I guess you have different fonts. Just need to hack dot to use @font-face with a data: url |
| 22:24 | <roc> | unfortunately your graph suffers from the problem that dot doesn't try to do anything to keep the aspect ratio of the graph sane |
| 22:28 | <erlehmann> | i figured out it would be pretty boring … http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/3418/html5.png |
| 22:28 | <erlehmann> | jgraham, see? its a waste of time. |
| 22:30 | <TabAtkins> | Damn, I'm going to have to trawl the "Make XKCD slightly worse" thread to find that font again. |
| 22:31 | <TabAtkins> | Btw: "macically". |
| 23:03 | <erlehmann> | TabAtkins, its humor sans. sub-standard from a font geek perspective, but usable for xkcd-rip-offs. |
| 23:03 | <erlehmann> | i think it got published on the xkcd blog some time ago |
| 23:04 | <erlehmann> | err, the xkcd SUCKS blog |
| 23:08 | <jgraham> | erlehmann: Not a waste of time. And I don't really want the jokes or anything. I just want the drawing style |
| 23:08 | <jgraham> | and a signature |
| 23:09 | <erlehmann> | jgraham, well, then chat randall up on IRC. though last time I did that he took 9 hours to reply (time-zones, hah) |
| 23:09 | <jgraham> | (since the whole point is to have a cool physical artifact) |
| 23:09 | <erlehmann> | or, just do a little magic with the svg output of dot. |
| 23:10 | <erlehmann> | like, using humor sans and wiggling the points by a few pixals |
| 23:10 | <erlehmann> | then attend a convention and get it signed :D |
| 23:10 | <jgraham> | erlehmann: Not sonvinced that would work. "Hi do you fancy making a drawing of some huely complex state machine so that I can have a cool poster for my office wall?" "No." "Oh.") |
| 23:11 | <erlehmann> | i guess so, but you can try |
| 23:11 | <TabAtkins> | Oh, huh. Well, xkcd forumites put together an actual font made from Randall's writing, too. |
| 23:11 | <erlehmann> | TabAtkins, is it better than humor sans? |
| 23:11 | <TabAtkins> | It's remarkably similar. |
| 23:11 | <jgraham> | erlehmann: Nothing fake is worthwhile. You seem to be missing the point that it only has aesthetic value and the aesthetic value of a fake is zero |
| 23:11 | <TabAtkins> | After all, I thought you were using it. |
| 23:12 | <TabAtkins> | jgraham: I challenge that assertion. |
| 23:12 | <jgraham> | OK, it's actually negative |
| 23:12 | <erlehmann> | jgraham, i challenge that assertion. i have produced some really funny xkcd fakes, jusf for shits and giggles. (and got "oh, when did that come out ?" :D) |
| 23:13 | <erlehmann> | and others have too, mostly satirically |
| 23:13 | <TabAtkins> | Aesthetics has little to nothing to do with provenance. |
| 23:13 | <jgraham> | In the sense that I would rather have something that looked different than something that was a fake-xkcd-style thing with the same information |
| 23:13 | <Philip`> | jgraham: If someone made a fake and told you it was real and sold it to you for lots of money, would it have more aesthetic value? |
| 23:14 | <erlehmann> | hah, we're getting philosophical \o/ |
| 23:14 | <jgraham> | Philip`: Happens all the time in the art world. When the fake is discovered all the value is lost |
| 23:14 | <TabAtkins> | The monetary value is lost. The aesthetic value isn't. That's just silly to say. |
| 23:15 | <TabAtkins> | The fact that it has the same aesthetic value is the reason it was a successful fake in the first place. |
| 23:15 | <jgraham> | TabAtkins: No it's not. How many owners of fake painings do you think enjoy looking at them as much as they didwhen they believed they were non-fake |
| 23:16 | <TabAtkins> | That has nothing to do with aesthetics. It's affected by an entirely different value. |
| 23:16 | <ment> | but not all good paintings were paint by one particular painter |
| 23:16 | <TabAtkins> | (Namely, that an original is inherently better than a copy.) |
| 23:16 | <jgraham> | Only if you have a very narrow definition of aesthetics. |
| 23:16 | <erlehmann> | jgraham, we live in a digital age. its all about information. in my room there is a laptop on which the first draft of the german pirate party was noted down, on the evening before founding of that party, in a beer garden. i do not consider that laptop as of great value (in fact, it is broken), but the information that was collected on it is really nice. |
| 23:16 | <TabAtkins> | (Also, that one has a painting that is worth a lot, rather than a fake worth relatively little.) |
| 23:17 | <TabAtkins> | Monetary value has a surprising, um, value to people. |
| 23:17 | <erlehmann> | my brother has a fake watch that looks expensive. it doesn't make a difference for him. |
| 23:17 | <erlehmann> | neather for me. |
| 23:18 | <erlehmann> | jgraham, do you think that sentimental value is assigned to objects or to ideas of objects? |
| 23:19 | <jgraham> | Right so creuly briging up the original point again, having a fake-xkcd style diagram would be worthless /to me/. I would rather have a different style. Having a real one would be cool. |
| 23:19 | jgraham | doesn't know what an idea of an object is |
| 23:19 | <erlehmann> | jgraham, then chat up randall and ask if he does commissioned diagrams. just do it. its the only way to be sure. |
| 23:19 | <Philip`> | Having one which you believe is real would be just as cool |
| 23:20 | <jgraham> | Philip`: Yes. Until it was shown to be fake |
| 23:20 | jgraham | doesn't actually want this enough to do anything about it |
| 23:20 | <erlehmann> | i mean, for him its probably not a big deal. many artists work for hire. |
| 23:20 | <Philip`> | Lock it up in a private collection and don't let anyone look at it |
| 23:20 | <Philip`> | so they'll never have an opportunity to show it's fake |
| 23:23 | <erlehmann> | jgraham, an idea, well a concept. compare a person to the concept you have of that person internally. what is the entity you attach value to? |
| 23:23 | <erlehmann> | for me, it would be the idea. obv. |
| 23:24 | <Philip`> | What if I think no entity has any value at all? |
| 23:36 | <othermaciej> | the longdesc thread is long |
| 23:37 | <othermaciej> | I should probably catch up with it at some point |
| 23:37 | <erlehmann> | Philip`, you are nihilist. proceed to the reeducation chamber ASAP. |
