| 00:02 | <Philip`> | erlehmann: That's not a reeducation chamber, it's an incineration chamber |
| 00:02 | <Philip`> | You can't fool me that easily |
| 00:04 | <erlehmann> | Philip`, its perfecty safe. the WHATWG wishes to remind you that incineration state is not yet part of the spec. |
| 00:10 | <TabAtkins> | No one would happen to have an xp home sp3 license key, would they? I'm reimaging a comp for a friend, and of course his windows disk is long gone. |
| 00:11 | <TabAtkins> | Alternately, a trustable iso for xp without any service packs. I have a key for that. |
| 00:14 | <Philip`> | Don't computers normally have license keys printed in a sticker on the back or something? |
| 00:14 | <Philip`> | s/in/on/ |
| 00:15 | <TabAtkins> | Yeah, but that's for xp home sp0. The key won't work for a higher service pack. |
| 00:15 | <TabAtkins> | double alternately, I have an xp pro sp2 disk. I have a surfeit of keys and disks, but none that match. |
| 00:33 | <MikeSmith> | can somebody who has IE7 or IE8 running please do a quick test of something for me? |
| 00:33 | MikeSmith | too lazy to start his Windows VM |
| 00:34 | <TabAtkins> | shoot |
| 00:53 | <CryptoQuick> | Reposted from #html (sorry!)-- Hello folks! I have a very specialized problem... while using canvas within foreignobject in SVG, I can't stack two canvases on top of each other and have the one behind it still be visible. one canvas I have markers and cursors and stuff that's updated often, then in the other is CPU-intensive, persistent stuff. |
| 00:53 | <CryptoQuick> | trying this doesn't work: |
| 00:53 | <CryptoQuick> | ctx.globalCompositeOperation("destination-over"); |
| 00:53 | <CryptoQuick> | ctx.drawImage(bg, 0, 0, 1000, 800); |
| 00:56 | <erlehmann> | CryptoQuick, why don't you just have one canvas? |
| 00:56 | <erlehmann> | also, isn't this a browser-specific thing? |
| 00:56 | <CryptoQuick> | I'm trying that now, actually-- with save and restore? |
| 00:56 | <CryptoQuick> | browser-specific? no, I don't think so, it does the same in Firefox and WebKit |
| 00:56 | <erlehmann> | CryptoQuick, tried it with all of webkit, gecko and presto ? |
| 00:57 | <CryptoQuick> | I can try presto now, one sec |
| 00:57 | <CryptoQuick> | oh lord |
| 00:57 | <CryptoQuick> | I hope people don't use opera :P |
| 00:57 | <CryptoQuick> | it messed up my unicode! >:I |
| 00:57 | <CryptoQuick> | anyway |
| 00:58 | <CryptoQuick> | now my new approach is to draw the markers directly on the canvas, then restore it at the end of the function... |
| 00:58 | <CryptoQuick> | is that the right way to do it? :I |
| 00:59 | <erlehmann> | dunno. i'm no canvas expert. |
| 00:59 | <erlehmann> | CryptoQuick, i'd ask on mozilla IRC if i were you. |
| 00:59 | <CryptoQuick> | alrighty, thanks :) |
| 01:42 | <MikeSmith> | anybody running dev-channel Chrome on Linux? I've got 223.11 and my status bar seems to have completely disappeared.. wondering if it's a known issue |
| 02:04 | <MikeSmith> | http://www.indicthreads.com/3625/html-5-websocket-cracks-the-http-request-response-barrier/ |
| 03:21 | <MikeSmith> | http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/app/trac/wiki/IriWorkGoals |
| 03:26 | Hixie | goes cross-eyed trying to understand some of the e-mails on the hybi list |
| 03:29 | <MikeSmith> | Hixie: I just added links to the "Error handling in URIs" discussion thread on the uri⊙wo list from last year |
| 03:30 | <MikeSmith> | added to that wiki page, that is |
| 03:30 | <MikeSmith> | speaking of HyBi - http://trac.tools.ietf.org/bof/trac/wiki/HyBi |
| 03:56 | <othermaciej> | good evening |
| 04:05 | <MikeSmith> | othermaciej: so I'll be at both the HyBi and IRI BOFs on November 10 in Hiroshima, nominally representing W3C and the HTML WG. At some point between now and then, would like to make sure I'm synced up with others from the group to make sure I can try to make whatever points we want made |
| 04:05 | <MikeSmith> | Hixie also ↑ |
| 04:05 | <Hixie> | yeah let's meet next week |
| 04:05 | <Hixie> | grab me at some point |
| 04:05 | <MikeSmith> | OK |
| 04:05 | <MikeSmith> | hai |
| 04:05 | <Hixie> | i'm gonna be running around like a headless chicken |
| 04:06 | <MikeSmith> | I know Larry has been working on try to put together some f2f time for IRI discussion next Thursday, but don't know that it's been decided yet or not (I've got some e-mail in my inbox to read yet) |
| 04:07 | <Hixie> | no decision that i've seen |
| 04:07 | <Hixie> | unicode is meeting at the same time in cupertino or something |
| 04:07 | <MikeSmith> | yeah |
| 04:07 | <Hixie> | some of us might have to take a ride down there at some point |
| 04:07 | <Hixie> | dunno what the story is |
| 04:08 | <MikeSmith> | I'll look into to.. figure out where it is at least |
| 04:09 | <MikeSmith> | anyway, I have to step out for bit now. back later |
| 04:11 | <othermaciej> | MikeSmith: I would be glad to chat about it sometime during the next week |
| 04:11 | <othermaciej> | Hixie: I'm sending Alexey to the Unicode meeting |
| 04:11 | <othermaciej> | at least, to the part that's supposed to be relevant to IDNA |
| 04:13 | <Hixie> | I hope they fix the mess that is IDNA2008 |
| 04:13 | <Hixie> | making it incompatible with IDNA2003 is just so stupid |
| 04:14 | <othermaciej> | yeah the meeting is all about how to fix the security and compatibility issues caused by IDNA2008 changes |
| 04:14 | <othermaciej> | which led both Alexey and me to think, "in that case, why are we changing it?" |
| 10:24 | <gsnedders|work> | hsivonen: I realized I wasn't really going to be able to do it quickly enough for the script to really be worthwhile, and didn't do it |
| 10:26 | <hsivonen> | :-( |
| 10:38 | <hsivonen> | whoa. google paper-spams me to advertise Web advertising |
| 10:44 | <erlehmann> | ┌─┐ |
| 10:44 | <erlehmann> | ┴─┴ |
| 10:44 | <erlehmann> | ಠ_̼ರೃ |
| 10:44 | <erlehmann> | GENTLEMEN |
| 10:47 | <jgraham> | erlehmann: BTW the answer is both |
| 10:49 | <erlehmann> | jgraham, please elaborate on that in the context of the original-fake distinction |
| 10:51 | <erlehmann> | if the object you believed to me orininal turns out to be fake, does the object lose value? or does the idea of the object lose value and the objects value stays the same? |
| 10:51 | <erlehmann> | s/to me/to be/g |
| 10:57 | <jgraham> | erlehmann: The idea of the object loses value (where value is the personal worth I abscribe to it) because in the case of art it is the concept that is valuble (in the case of e.g. an oven it is the object itself that is valuble since the idea of an oven is useless for making food) |
| 10:58 | <erlehmann> | got it. thanks |
| 11:34 | <hsivonen> | I wonder if I should take the Google ad bait just to burn the 75 euros of "free" advertising credit on Validator.nu |
| 11:35 | <hsivonen> | there must be a catch, but I fail to see the catch |
| 11:37 | <gsnedders|work> | hsivonen: When I have more time I may look closer again |
| 12:02 | <Dashiva> | hsivonen: You get addicted to the added traffic and start paying for it |
| 12:32 | <hsivonen> | is http://www.w3.org/TR/MathML3/ the latest public MathML 3 draft? |
| 12:36 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen: you mean WD? or editor's draft? |
| 12:41 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: whatever is the latest. probably ED |
| 12:42 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen: I'm trying to look and see if I can find an ED |
| 12:43 | <hsivonen> | (it just seems useless to read WDs if EDs are public) |
| 12:43 | hsivonen | tried to google with site:dev.w3.org but failed |
| 12:43 | <zcorpan_> | their WG page didn't seem to point to any EDs |
| 12:44 | <hsivonen> | ok |
| 12:44 | <hsivonen> | maybe I should just read the WD, then |
| 12:48 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen: they don't use dev.w3.org |
| 12:48 | <MikeSmith> | but I can't find where elsewhere they store them |
| 12:48 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: OK. thanks |
| 12:48 | <MikeSmith> | but anyway, I checked their member-only list |
| 12:49 | <MikeSmith> | there's no mention of an updated ED in their list archives |
| 12:49 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: I don't want to read anything secret, because I want to be able to discuss stuff if I find something to comment on |
| 12:49 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen: yeah |
| 12:49 | <MikeSmith> | anyway, it does seem the WD is the latest |
| 12:50 | <zcorpan_> | hsivonen: you can discuss it in secret |
| 12:51 | <jgraham> | You could talk to yourself about it, for example |
| 12:51 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan_: I want to be able to whine here on IRC without going to #secrettreehouse. |
| 12:55 | <hsivonen> | aargh. need to find a way to kill the "click and hold Dock icon for Exposé" feature on SL |
| 12:55 | <hsivonen> | I've now triggered Exposé a zilloin times on SL without wanting to trigger it |
| 12:56 | <hsivonen> | s/oin/ion/ |
| 12:57 | <Rik`> | hsivonen: i've never such an option |
| 12:57 | <Rik`> | and it's for your own good, they know what you want :) |
| 12:57 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen: wait, how do you know about #secrettreehouse !? |
| 12:58 | <zcorpan_> | MikeSmith: he's part of the cabal |
| 12:58 | MikeSmith | shuts down #secrettreehouse and moves to #reallysecrettreehouse |
| 13:12 | <gsnedders|work> | MikeSmith: Where's that? Same location in the Amazon as the previous one, just higher up that tree? |
| 13:18 | <Philip`> | gsnedders|work: If he said, it would hardly be secret |
| 13:19 | <jgraham> | I thought Amazon keps all its treehouses in the Colouds these days |
| 13:19 | <jgraham> | *Clouds |
| 13:20 | <MikeSmith> | gsnedders|work: the old #secrettreehouse was actually in Romania |
| 13:20 | <gsnedders|work> | Surely they aren't treehouses then any more? |
| 13:20 | <MikeSmith> | former Bush administration extraordinary-rendition site |
| 13:20 | <MikeSmith> | the thing about the Amazon was a ruse |
| 13:20 | gsnedders|work | wonders whether to make some really obscure Twilight reference to the fact it used to be in Romania |
| 13:21 | <gsnedders|work> | I'd probably get it wrong though. |
| 13:22 | MikeSmith | reads some e-mail and wonders, Why can't people just love me for who I am? |
| 13:22 | <MikeSmith> | the only person in this whole thing who is more lovable than me is gsnedders|work |
| 13:22 | <MikeSmith> | it's downhill from there |
| 13:23 | <gsnedders|work> | Obviously I should lose all my old-world romanticism and become more like everyone else. |
| 13:23 | <MikeSmith> | we should have a ranking |
| 13:24 | <MikeSmith> | Que es mas encantador? |
| 13:24 | <MikeSmith> | ¿Senor gsnedders|work o Senor MikeSmith? |
| 13:27 | <MikeSmith> | dammit... 22:30 and I'm getting kicked of the Starbucks terrace at Ebisu station |
| 13:27 | <MikeSmith> | now have to find somewhere else to steal electricity |
| 13:28 | <gsnedders|work> | "There are no tears/Just pity and fear" |
| 13:30 | <MikeSmith> | that's a bright thought |
| 13:30 | <MikeSmith> | gsnedders|work: see, that's why people love you |
| 13:34 | <MikeSmith> | whiskey |
| 14:01 | <Dashiva> | I didn't see this one posted anywhere: http://www.flickr.com/photos/mrlastweek/4014327734/ |
| 14:06 | <TabAtkins> | Dashiva: ::sigh:: |
| 14:45 | <Dashiva> | The ARIA discussions are so wobbly |
| 14:45 | <Dashiva> | On one hand, ARIA is supposed to be really good and useful. But on the other hand, there's a constant refrain of "We can't do that, because it would require tools to support ARIA" |
| 14:46 | <Dashiva> | You'd think supporting core accessibility technology would be a given for accessibility tools |
| 14:57 | <mikekelly> | hi fans |
| 14:58 | <mikekelly> | what was the upshot of the discussion about http authorization - did anything change? |
| 15:35 | <gsnedders|work> | Wow, it's dark outside. |
| 15:36 | <gsnedders|work> | Halloween must be upon us! |
| 15:36 | <Phae> | you up in the highlands? |
| 15:36 | <gsnedders|work> | Phae: Linköping |
| 15:36 | <Phae> | oh. i thought you were UK somewhere. |
| 15:36 | <Phae> | fair dos. |
| 15:36 | <gsnedders|work> | Phae: I have more sense than to be in the highlands over Halloween |
| 15:36 | <Phae> | :) |
| 15:36 | <gsnedders|work> | Phae: Until June I was at secondary school in St Andrews, where I'd lived me entire life. Then some idiot at Opera decided to give me a job. :P |
| 15:37 | <gsnedders|work> | (So, yes, I was in the UK somewhere) |
| 15:39 | <Phae> | ah, ok. that's what i thought |
| 15:54 | <TabAtkins> | Hmm, I didn't realize that anchor links counted as "relative" for the purpose of <base>. |
| 15:54 | <TabAtkins> | That sort of sucks. |
| 16:07 | <AryehGregor> | That is a pain. |
| 16:08 | <Philip`> | TabAtkins: Why would they be anything other than relative links? |
| 16:08 | <TabAtkins> | Philip`: Because they're anchor links, which in my mind is a third category. No page is named at all. |
| 16:08 | <AryehGregor> | The point is that clicking them shouldn't navigate to a different page if <base> is specified. That's unexpected. |
| 16:09 | <AryehGregor> | Of course, <base> is kind of evil anyway except for testing. |
| 16:09 | <gsnedders|work> | I don't think using it for testing makes it less evil, it's just there's no less evil way of doing the testing |
| 16:09 | <TabAtkins> | Heh, <base> is really useful to me, actually. It lets me rewrite the hierarchy of my site without caring about all the links in content. |
| 16:46 | Philip` | decides to append his initials to bug reports, so that he has a non-zero chance of finding them all again |
| 18:01 | MikeSmith | wonders if [pt] is a representation for the sound of spitting |
| 18:03 | <MikeSmith> | e.g., "the script would run when the attribute was set, not when the element was ; appended" [sound of spitting] |
| 18:08 | <Philip`> | Quite possibly |
| 18:09 | <Philip`> | It's useful as a unique string to search on, since not many other people spit on their bugs |
| 18:18 | <MikeSmith> | Philip`: I'm going to start to put [pt] on my bugs |
| 18:18 | <MikeSmith> | or [ppppt] |
| 18:18 | <MikeSmith> | for extra "p" |
| 21:46 | <ap> | hsivonen: is http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=7059#c20 still what we need to do? |
| 22:31 | <ap> | Hixie: DTD parsing is optional, but if a UA supports entities in normal parsed source (as we do), why not support them in innerHTML? |
| 22:31 | <Hixie> | you shouldn't support them in normal parsed source either, imho |
| 22:34 | <ap> | Hixie: besides, an entity could be declared in internal subset, which isn't optional to parse IIRC. if the spec just said that the DTD should be taken from target, both cases would work automatically |
| 22:34 | <Hixie> | i guess |
| 22:36 | <ap> | Hixie: not supporting and friends is not really an option for us, because they work in Firefox |
| 22:36 | <Hixie> | it bugs me that xml left this massive interop hole |
| 22:37 | <Hixie> | i don't really mind how we fill it |
| 22:37 | <ap> | Hixie: you could document what WebKit does :) |
| 22:37 | <Hixie> | but we need to make it clear what browsers and other XHTML UAs are to do |
| 22:37 | <ap> | Hixie: i.e. hardcode known XHTML DTDs and support character entities |
| 22:37 | <Hixie> | i guess i have to bite the bullet and "profile" XML |
| 22:40 | <Dashiva> | That sounds like the author-friendly solution |
| 22:41 | <Hixie> | ap: can you file a bug or send a mail or something asking me specifically to define how entities are to be parsed by XHTML5 UAs? |
| 22:41 | <Hixie> | ap: (if you send mail, send it to public-html so that all the "you can't profile xml!!!!!" people see it and can raise a stink now rather than once i put it in the spec "without discussion") |
| 22:44 | <ap> | Hixie: ok |
| 22:44 | <ttepasse> | I declare: We need an appendix of the HTML5 parsing algorithm expressed in State Chart XML. |
| 22:44 | <Hixie> | ttepasse: if you can provide one (and instructions on how to keep it up to date when the spec changes), i'm happy to add it to the spec :-) |
| 22:45 | <ttepasse> | That sound's like work. I just like to see it for my personal amusement. ;) |
| 22:47 | <Dashiva> | I'm sure Philip` can drum something up eventually |
| 22:47 | <Dashiva> | He's the go-to guy on weird stuff like that :) |
| 22:48 | <ttepasse> | Can he do EmotionML on HTML5? |
| 22:48 | <ttepasse> | (Sorry, catching up on W3C news ...) |
| 23:08 | <Philip`> | It's easy to encode the HTML5 parser as a state machine |
| 23:08 | <Philip`> | Start with an initial, then for every HTML document add a transition labelled with that document as a string, leading to a node which is associated with the appropriate DOM |
| 23:08 | <Philip`> | s/initial/initial state/ |
| 23:14 | <Dashiva> | Actually |
| 23:14 | <Dashiva> | By what metric are we judging? |
| 23:14 | <Dashiva> | Because I don't think that parser would fit on my hard drive |