| 00:02 | <Philip`> | http://www.w3.org/TR/rdfa-syntax/#rdfa-attributes lists what the attributes are meant to contain |
| 00:02 | <AryehGregor> | Well, the implementation basically allows any contents. |
| 00:02 | <AryehGregor> | The comment is misleading. |
| 00:03 | <AryehGregor> | My question is, does this actually allow conformant RDFa documents to be generated? |
| 00:03 | <AryehGregor> | I'm not sure. You don't need namespace declarations or other fancy stuff? |
| 00:03 | <Philip`> | You do need namespace declarations |
| 00:03 | <AryehGregor> | Where does it say that? |
| 00:03 | <Philip`> | Most of the stuff uses CURIEs, which require you to declare prefixes |
| 00:03 | <gsnedders> | They just make RDFa 120% more sexy. |
| 00:04 | <AryehGregor> | It seems like CURIEs are optional, you can just use the full URL if you feel like it? |
| 00:04 | <Philip`> | You can't (except in about and resource) |
| 00:04 | <gsnedders> | You can only use the full URL if you have e.g., xmlns:http="http:" |
| 00:04 | <AryehGregor> | Can you give me a link to that in the spec so I can object properly? :) |
| 00:04 | <AryehGregor> | This is freaking long. |
| 00:04 | <Philip`> | http://www.w3.org/TR/rdfa-syntax/#P_curie |
| 00:04 | <Philip`> | is the syntax for CURIEs |
| 00:05 | <Philip`> | which applies to rel/rev/property/datatype/typeof attributes |
| 00:06 | <gsnedders> | RDFa is a wonderly well-designed. |
| 00:06 | <webben> | AryehGregor: http://www.w3.org/TR/rdfa-syntax/#col_Metainformation says the meta attribs must (mostly) use curies |
| 00:06 | <Philip`> | property="http://..." will get interpreted as a prefix "http" and reference "//..." |
| 00:06 | <Philip`> | and not as a proper URL |
| 00:08 | <Philip`> | The script-detection thing seems both useless (browsers aren't going to execute the URLs identified by RDFa attributes) and insufficient (if browsers did execute them, you could write <div xmlns:foo="jav" foo:property="ascript:alert('oops')"> |
| 00:08 | <Philip`> | ) |
| 00:09 | <Philip`> | Um |
| 00:09 | <Philip`> | That's totally wrong |
| 00:09 | <Philip`> | <div xmlns:foo="jav" property="foo:ascript:alert('oops')"> |
| 00:09 | <Philip`> | (perhaps with more percent-encoding to be strictly legal) |
| 00:11 | <AryehGregor> | To allow microdata, we'd just have to permit the item* attributes, right? |
| 00:13 | <Philip`> | Yes |
| 00:16 | <Philip`> | AryehGregor: An unrelated probably bug: Looks like the code is trying to filter 'bad' rel/rev values, but rel/rev aren't allowed by the attribute whitelist anyway so that's pointless |
| 00:16 | <Philip`> | *probable |
| 00:17 | <Philip`> | Anyway, the xmlns: thing kind of kills it unless you only want to use prefixes that are already declared in the page template |
| 00:17 | <AryehGregor> | We could whitelist xmlns:* if we really wanted to. |
| 00:17 | <AryehGregor> | I, of course, will argue we should support microdata instead. :) |
| 00:18 | <Philip`> | Why "of course"? |
| 00:18 | <AryehGregor> | Why not "of course"? |
| 00:18 | <AryehGregor> | I'm not sure why we need either, actually. |
| 00:18 | <AryehGregor> | He didn't give a reason. |
| 00:18 | AryehGregor | is also trying to persuade someone in #wikimedia-tech to turn on HTML5 output for Wikipedia already, but they all claim they want to go to sleep |
| 00:18 | <AryehGregor> | (maybe tomorrow) |
| 00:20 | <Philip`> | AryehGregor: Why support a new and largely untested technology with precisely zero consumer support, like microdata? |
| 00:21 | <gsnedders> | </body><title>foo</title> creates the title in the body element, right? |
| 00:21 | <AryehGregor> | Why support RDFa if it might die to microdata? |
| 00:21 | <AryehGregor> | Why support any of this stuff? I'm not sure what the use-case is for us. |
| 00:21 | <Philip`> | I don't think you should support either :-) |
| 00:21 | <gsnedders> | Philip`: Go look at that for me. |
| 00:21 | <Philip`> | gsnedders: No |
| 00:22 | <gsnedders> | Philip`: Pretty please? |
| 00:22 | <gsnedders> | Philip`: With a cherry on top? |
| 00:22 | <Philip`> | AryehGregor: Seems better to argue against RDFa due to lack of justification of the complexity it'll introduce |
| 00:23 | <AryehGregor> | See, I don't know why he's introducing it at all. |
| 00:23 | <JonathanNeal> | Hi everyone! \o/ |
| 00:24 | <Philip`> | rather than due to a preference for microdata |
| 00:24 | <TabAtkins> | Hi! \o/ |
| 00:24 | <Philip`> | Argh, stop being so happy >:-( |
| 00:24 | <Philip`> | gsnedders: I don't like cherries |
| 00:26 | <Philip`> | AryehGregor: (By "complexity" I suppose I'm thinking of the complexity of trying to support it properly, rather than badly hacking in a few attributes into a whitelist, though I'm not really sure what "properly" would mean) |
| 00:26 | <AryehGregor> | Philip`, the support here is just letting people add it, i.e., not stripping it out as unrecognized. Not very complicated. |
| 00:30 | gsnedders | thinks one of zcorpan's tests is wrong |
| 00:30 | gsnedders | blames zcorpan |
| 00:30 | <gsnedders> | <script><!--<script --></script> --- how much of that is script contents? |
| 00:31 | <gsnedders> | html5lib and me agree that the content is <!--<script --> |
| 00:37 | <AryehGregor> | http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Special:Code/MediaWiki/58712#c4406 |
| 00:41 | <AryehGregor> | Hmm, looks like the use-case might be something like outputting EXIF data for images in structured format, stuff like that. |
| 00:41 | <AryehGregor> | That could be legitimate. |
| 00:41 | <AryehGregor> | Meaning we would have to actually make a decision on RDFa vs. microdata. |
| 00:44 | <JonathanNeal> | Philip`, I'm sorry for being so happy. I'll be more sad, just for you. |
| 00:44 | JonathanNeal | moans because he never feels secure using the <section> tag. |
| 08:59 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: OK. Did you ask Gerald? |
| 09:02 | <jgraham> | AryehGregor: I assume that one of the requirements for "distributed extensibility" is that it not require support from browser makers |
| 09:03 | <jgraham> | So I asume a gol is that I can take something like SVG and implement it in something like IE using something like Flash + Javascript |
| 09:03 | <jgraham> | *goal |
| 09:03 | <danbri> | hi folks. should html5 video element work in Safari 4.0.3? testing here suggests not - http://svn.foaf-project.org/foaftown/buttons/html5/playertest.html# |
| 09:04 | danbri | trying to wire it to a remote on my iphone via xmpp |
| 09:04 | <jgraham> | Without the IE team having to add in explicit support themselves |
| 09:05 | <jgraham> | danbri: wfm in 4.0.2 |
| 09:06 | <jgraham> | danbri: (on 10.5) |
| 09:06 | danbri | in osx 10.5.8 |
| 09:09 | <jgraham> | danbri: 10.5.8 here |
| 09:15 | <jgraham> | danbri: Oh it's an ogg ile. You'll need the Xiph quicktime bits installed for that to work in Safari |
| 09:15 | <jgraham> | *file |
| 09:28 | <krijnh> | Dashiva: nope, I don't |
| 09:32 | <danbri> | thanks jgraham! |
| 09:40 | <danbri> | jgraham, that fixed it yep... |
| 09:48 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: No |
| 09:49 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: But I don't have any way of asking him |
| 10:46 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: OK Maybe we should phone him or something then |
| 10:47 | jgraham | is going to the shop |
| 10:52 | gsnedders | was going to buy tickets soon... |
| 10:53 | <gsnedders> | Before heading over to Tornby, but I think it's probably too late to safely o I want there |
| 10:55 | gsnedders | has one known issue in his html5lib update |
| 10:55 | <gsnedders> | Concecutive text nodes |
| 11:00 | gsnedders | snarls at people who use other people's phones thereby breaking caller id |
| 11:57 | gsnedders | hopes he correctly managed to buy tickets |
| 11:58 | <gsnedders> | (Actually, I don't really doubt it) |
| 12:12 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: As long as we got the English version |
| 12:12 | <jgraham> | There is also a Swedish version at 15:30 |
| 12:13 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: Yes |
| 12:14 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: You get any idea how to deal with adjacent text nodes in html5lib? |
| 12:16 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: Not without looking at the code |
| 12:16 | <jgraham> | What is the problem? That we should get multipl text nodes in some cases? |
| 12:17 | <gsnedders> | yes |
| 12:19 | <gsnedders> | It's the reason for the only test failure I have here now |
| 12:19 | <jgraham> | In general it's not something that we support |
| 12:19 | <jgraham> | Since e.g. elementtree has no way to represent it |
| 12:19 | <jgraham> | But obviously DOM does |
| 12:20 | <gsnedders> | Right |
| 12:20 | <jgraham> | Oh I see you just filed a bug on that |
| 12:20 | <gsnedders> | I meant to a while ago |
| 12:20 | jgraham | would prefer if the parser always created normalised text nodes |
| 12:21 | <jgraham> | i.e. never created adjacent ones |
| 12:21 | <gsnedders> | hsivonen was against that on perf grounds,IIRC |
| 12:21 | <jgraham> | I think that is a bit of a silly argument given how fast parsing ypically is compared to layout |
| 12:21 | <jgraham> | +t |
| 12:22 | <gsnedders> | Indeed, and in html5lib's case it would be slower |
| 12:22 | <gsnedders> | It suits one implementation strategy, and only one |
| 12:24 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: So it is quite easy to see how to prevent html5lib always coalescing adjacent text nodes |
| 12:24 | <jgraham> | But I guess the prolem is to prevent it happening only sometimes? |
| 12:24 | <gsnedders> | In the way the spec wants? |
| 12:24 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: No |
| 12:24 | <jgraham> | I expect |
| 12:25 | <gsnedders> | You want to create a single text node when the text node was the last thing inserted into the document |
| 12:25 | <gsnedders> | Gah. git blame source is slow. |
| 12:26 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: We could have a flag in the treebuilder I guess |
| 12:26 | <jgraham> | But it seems ugly :( |
| 12:26 | <gsnedders> | But then we need to make sure it is always right |
| 12:26 | <gsnedders> | And that's ugly and slow. |
| 12:26 | <jgraham> | Yes |
| 12:26 | <gsnedders> | I think the correct solution is bitch at the spec. |
| 12:26 | <jgraham> | I tebnd to agree |
| 12:26 | <jgraham> | *tend |
| 12:31 | <gsnedders> | http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=1333&to=1334&context= |
| 12:32 | <gsnedders> | Date: Tue Mar 4 07:25:17 2008 +0000 |
| 12:34 | <gsnedders> | Ah, it's Philip`'s fault |
| 12:34 | <gsnedders> | http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2008-March/014148.html |
| 12:37 | <gsnedders> | No, that's not the change. |
| 12:38 | <danbri> | video question , ... if i'm playing a video, then .js alters the src= url to point to another ... what's the proper way to get the new video playing? |
| 12:39 | <gsnedders> | http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=2123&to=2124&context=10 |
| 12:39 | <gsnedders> | There's the change. |
| 12:40 | <gsnedders> | Date: Fri Aug 29 09:24:33 2008 +0000 |
| 12:41 | <gsnedders> | http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Aug/0890.html |
| 12:44 | <gsnedders> | danbri: It should start playing once there is enough data |
| 12:46 | <danbri> | ah ok, not super snappy then |
| 12:46 | danbri | wired my iphone up as a remote |
| 12:48 | <danbri> | doing this: |
| 12:48 | <danbri> | var avElement = document.getElementById('content'); |
| 12:48 | <danbri> | avElement.src = trailers[ix]['file']; |
| 12:48 | <danbri> | avElement.play(); |
| 12:48 | <danbri> | } |
| 13:11 | <Dashiva> | Oh my |
| 13:11 | <Dashiva> | This gives an interesting result in Firefox: javascript:alert((function(){ return 2 * 3; }).toString()) |
| 13:17 | <gsnedders> | I wonder how I can redesign gsnedders.com to not make it suck |
| 13:17 | <Dashiva> | Drop shadows |
| 13:18 | <Dashiva> | And a font that isn't all pixely |
| 13:18 | <gsnedders> | That's not quite what I was thinking of. |
| 13:19 | <gsnedders> | I'm kinda tempted to finally use http://stuff.gsnedders.com/tri.html |
| 13:41 | <gsnedders> | Setting HTMLMediaEelent.src should cause the new src to load, right? |
| 13:42 | <Dashiva> | "If a src attribute of a media element is set or changed, the user agent must invoke the media element's media element load algorithm." |
| 13:43 | <gsnedders> | Yeah, which makes me think it should |
| 13:43 | <gsnedders> | Then why in both Safari and Firefox does it require .load() to do anything? |
| 13:43 | gsnedders | guesses a spec change seeming they both fail the same way |
| 13:45 | <danbri> | thanks for debugging this gsnedders! |
| 13:45 | <danbri> | i can now turn over html5 videos using my handheld apple remote, or my iphone :) |
| 13:46 | <gsnedders> | So your handheld apple remote, or your handheld apple remote? :) |
| 13:46 | <danbri> | (the former with an apple-event/xmpp bridge running on laptop) |
| 13:46 | danbri | has two hands |
| 13:46 | <gsnedders> | But which is quicker? :P |
| 13:47 | <danbri> | the physical remote has huge advantage you can use it without looking where your thumb is |
| 13:47 | <danbri> | sure someone will eventually invent screens that change physical texture to show button areas with lumps |
| 13:47 | <danbri> | at which point html will need more APIs again :) |
| 13:47 | <gsnedders> | And patent it. |
| 13:49 | <danbri> | there must be something existing already ,it's too obvious |
| 13:49 | <danbri> | but a screen that could mutate shapes and be multi-touch, ... tough one |
| 13:49 | <Dashiva> | Do you need to implement something to get a software patent for it? |
| 13:49 | <danbri> | i think so (cf. perpetual motion machines etc) |
| 13:50 | <danbri> | ianal & idwtbal |
| 13:50 | <Dashiva> | Real patents, yes, but software has no physical object as result |
| 13:53 | <danbri> | now i need more ogg videos to test with! |
| 13:53 | <danbri> | i guess deep linking with these things is considered more obnoxious even than with images |
| 13:53 | <Philip`> | jgraham: The "perf grounds" are about worst-case performance, which is an important issue since we'd probably want to avoid DOS attacks on the parser |
| 13:54 | <Philip`> | (so the typical speed of parsing is not relevant) |
| 13:54 | <Philip`> | because if you coalesce all adjacent text nodes, in a language with immutable strings, it can give quadratic performance in the size of the input, which is bad |
| 13:55 | <gsnedders> | e.g., <table>a<table>b<table>c<table>d... |
| 13:56 | <danbri> | (is the spinny thing in the middle of firefox html5 video trying to tell me the video is still loading?) |
| 13:56 | <gsnedders> | (I was wondering that too, and guessing that) |
| 13:57 | gsnedders | guesses jgraham is about to leave his flat for the cinema |
| 13:57 | gsnedders | guesses he ought to go too, expecially seeming he has all the tickets |
| 13:58 | <gsnedders> | (I wonder, seeming they are showing this in both English and Swedish, whether the English version will have Swedish subtitles or not.) |
| 14:00 | gsnedders | heads off |
| 14:15 | <AryehGregor> | jgraham, you can implement SVG in IE using JavaScript and Flash. Demonstrably. So if that's the use-case, problem solved. :) |
| 14:16 | <AryehGregor> | AFAICT, the "decentralized" part of "decentralized extensibility" is mainly a) avoid naming conflicts, b) discoverability of the specification, and (depending on who you ask) c) use XML namespaces. |
| 14:16 | <AryehGregor> | Happily, the proposal satisfies (a) and (c). |
| 14:16 | <AryehGregor> | (b) could be done too, probably, somehow, without actually affecting people from real life who only use things like HTML. |
| 14:48 | <AryehGregor> | Philip`, it looks like the use-case for RDFa in MediaWiki is allowing license metadata. |
| 14:49 | <AryehGregor> | Since Google and CC are behind RDFa for that. |
| 14:57 | <Philip`> | AryehGregor: For images, like what I assume http://googlewebmastercentral.blogspot.com/2009/08/specifying-images-license-using-rdfa.html says except apparently that information is idiotically only available as a video so I've got no idea what it says? |
| 14:58 | <Philip`> | I assume it says something like what the first part of http://webbackplane.com/mark-birbeck/blog/2009/08/using-rdfa-to-provide-license-information-to-google-image-search says |
| 14:59 | <Philip`> | (and I guess the latter part of that blog post may be mistaken because it's based on the assumption that Google actually has a proper RDFa parser) |
| 15:07 | <AryehGregor> | I think Google allows either RDFa or microformats. |
| 15:07 | <AryehGregor> | But CC advocates RDFa. |
| 15:07 | <AryehGregor> | (I do mean microformats, not microdata . . . yay confusing names) |
| 15:08 | <TabAtkins> | Just encode your microformats using microdata. Problem solved. ^_^ |
| 15:12 | <Philip`> | AryehGregor: http://www.google.com/support/webmasters/bin/answer.py?answer=99170 is pseudo-RDFa plus microformats, but that's not for licensing information |
| 15:12 | <AryehGregor> | Google does check for licensing somehow. |
| 15:12 | <AryehGregor> | For its image search. |
| 15:14 | AryehGregor | wonders how public-html-request got CCd on the ARIA roles discussion |
| 15:15 | <TabAtkins> | Yeah, dunno, I got an auto-message from it. Pretty weird. |
| 15:37 | <AryehGregor> | Some Wikipedia vandals are pretty entertaining. http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Comparison_of_Microsoft_Windows_versions&diff=prev&oldid=324528354 |
| 15:47 | <erlehmann> | i'm just watching a lecture from 23C3, bert bos on CSS … will there be something from browser / whatwg people on 26C3 ? |
| 16:06 | <Dashiva> | I wonder what browser "1.10" is |
| 16:09 | <Philip`> | Maybe it's a new tactic to stop people doing UA sniffing for specific browsers |
| 16:09 | <Philip`> | by not giving the UA a name at all, just a version number |
| 16:17 | <TabAtkins> | AryehGregor: Heh. |
| 17:46 | <Dashiva> | gsnedders: Hva you considered a phone that is a phone, and not a tiny general-purpose computer? |
| 17:53 | <AryehGregor> | Personally, I've come to dislike electronic devices that aren't general-purpose computers. |
| 17:54 | <AryehGregor> | Like I don't use an alarm clock anymore. It was too tiresome to set it by hand every day. |
| 17:54 | <AryehGregor> | I just use cron, at, and beep(1). |
| 17:55 | <AryehGregor> | I'm waiting for a phone I can install Ubuntu on, then maybe I'll get a cell phone. |
| 17:56 | <Philip`> | AryehGregor: You could always get an alarm clock which automatically goes off at the same time every day |
| 17:56 | <Philip`> | I don't think that's a rare and highly advanced feature |
| 17:57 | <AryehGregor> | The problem is, I don't get up at the same time every day. |
| 17:58 | <AryehGregor> | 35 7 * * sun /home/aryeh/bin/alarm |
| 17:58 | <AryehGregor> | 30 6 * * mon /home/aryeh/bin/alarm |
| 17:58 | <AryehGregor> | 5 7 * * tue,thu,fri /home/aryeh/bin/alarm |
| 17:58 | <AryehGregor> | 40 6 * * wed /home/aryeh/bin/alarm |
| 17:58 | <AryehGregor> | 0 8 * * sat /home/aryeh/bin/alarm |
| 17:58 | <AryehGregor> | In a similar vein, any text field that's not vim aggravates me. |
| 18:00 | AryehGregor | was very annoyed just now that he couldn't use Ctrl-V to remove the timestamps from /exec crontab -l output in his IRC client |
| 22:12 | <gsnedders> | Dashiva: That is the sort of phone I am considering. |