| 01:34 | <JonathanNeal> | Hi!!! \o/ |
| 01:37 | <TabAtkins> | You get more excited every time I see you. |
| 01:38 | <JonathanNeal> | TabAtkins, yea, well it's fun. |
| 01:39 | <JonathanNeal> | Sometimes I get so excited writing a jquery plugin, I'll include a themesong. |
| 01:46 | <TabAtkins> | I can relate to that, JonathanNeal. jQuery plugins are exciting things to write! |
| 01:46 | <Dashiva> | Write the jQuery national anthem |
| 01:46 | <Dashiva> | Played with an audio element whenever the script is loaded |
| 01:56 | <JonathanNeal> | Actually because you mentioned that |
| 01:56 | <JonathanNeal> | I just wrote a yayQuery theme song for their upcoming podcast. |
| 02:11 | <JonathanNeal> | http://jquery.thewikies.com/swfobject/ <-- theme song is on the main page. |
| 02:11 | <JonathanNeal> | New version released too :P |
| 02:18 | <Dashiva> | Nice tune |
| 02:23 | <JonathanNeal> | thanks Dashiva :-) |
| 02:23 | <TabAtkins> | That's... interesting. ^_^ |
| 07:04 | <hsivonen> | gsnedders: IIRC, it was Philip who pointed out a time complexity problem with coalescing all text nodes (including the foster-parented case) |
| 07:05 | <hsivonen> | the V.nu/Gecko HTML5 parser has bugs in this area |
| 07:05 | <hsivonen> | it sometimes splits a text node even where it shouldn't per spec |
| 07:35 | <mdrphp> | does anyone here have a moment to test out a wysiwyg script i have, and see what you think of it? |
| 07:40 | <hsivonen> | was this printed by a Microsoft employee? http://www.flickr.com/photos/8554702@N05/4080900839/in/set-72157622749234808/ |
| 07:56 | <gsnedders> | hsivonen: Indeed, if you look further in the logs you'll see I found the email from Philip` that changed it. |
| 08:01 | <jgraham> | Well like I said there's no posible way we can split text in about half our backends since they don't have the concept of text nodes |
| 08:01 | <jgraham> | And I think it will be an enormous pain to get this right for the other half of our backends (the useless ones) |
| 08:04 | <gsnedders> | Indeed. |
| 08:05 | <gsnedders> | And implementations in lower level languages, such as those used in browsers, can simply support mutable strings and just have O(n) behaviour. |
| 08:10 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: Well that seems like a rather unfair requirement since browsers could have chosen to use immutable strings already |
| 08:12 | <jgraham> | (In principle if you can change the string implementation, you could do something like http://bugs.python.org/issue1569040 although note that patch hasn't been accepted :( ) |
| 08:12 | <othermaciej> | hsivonen: I don't know who printed it but I do believe Paul Cotton brandished it at some points |
| 08:12 | <othermaciej> | jgraham: is there a requirement in the HTML5 parser to sometimes have multiple adjacent text nodes? |
| 08:20 | <hsivonen> | othermaciej: IIRC, it's at least permitted when text is foster-parented |
| 08:21 | <hsivonen> | othermaciej: ok. good enough supporting evidence for the rumor that MS employees like to print specs. |
| 08:21 | <othermaciej> | hsivonen: I was not aware of such a rumor |
| 08:22 | <gavin> | I have a colleague who likes to print unified diffs that he needs to review |
| 08:22 | <gavin> | he reviews them with a pen! |
| 08:25 | <roc> | if developers used the online version, people could mine the whatwg.org logs to figure out what was being implemented |
| 08:36 | MikeSmith | is on a train back to Shinjuku, checking the logs to see if he's missed anything interesting |
| 08:37 | <gsnedders> | MikeSmith: Everything. |
| 08:40 | <jgraham> | othermaciej: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/tokenization.html#insert-a-character Note the example |
| 08:41 | <jgraham> | specifically the <table>A<tr>B one |
| 08:41 | <othermaciej> | that's some wacky examples |
| 08:50 | <MikeSmith> | fwiw, I think it was one of the X3D guys who printed out the copy of the spec, and for benign reasons (not for purposes of it being used as a prop) |
| 08:51 | <othermaciej> | I don't think the use as a prop was malicious |
| 08:52 | MikeSmith | is finding that the certain eyboard eys on his aptop don't wor any onger after train went around a curve and beverage spashed down on his eyboard |
| 08:59 | <MikeSmith> | othermaciej: btw, I guess you saw that the ruby support got committed |
| 08:59 | <othermaciej> | MikeSmith: yep |
| 09:00 | MikeSmith | having a hard time wording things without using characters between i and m |
| 09:04 | <MikeSmith> | othermaciej: I'm wondering what my chances are of convincing somebody to become editor for the CSS Ruby spec so that we can move that forward faster and get it supported too |
| 09:04 | <othermaciej> | MikeSmith: don't look at me :-) |
| 09:04 | <MikeSmith> | heh |
| 09:05 | <danbri> | ghjkl;'\ |
| 09:05 | <danbri> | there you go, copy/pastable |
| 09:05 | danbri | used to google for ~ when first got an italian keyboard mac |
| 09:06 | <MikeSmith> | maybe I can as Mr, Steiner |
| 09:06 | <MikeSmith> | he understands the issues better than anybody by now, perhaps |
| 09:09 | <gsnedders> | MikeSmith: Ruby support got committed into what? WebKit? |
| 09:10 | <MikeSmith> | gsnedders: yeah |
| 09:10 | <hsivonen> | does WebKit support Ruby as an addition to CSS or as a non-CSS extension to layout? |
| 09:11 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen: I thin it does not support CSS Ruby yet at all |
| 09:11 | <hsivonen> | ok |
| 09:11 | <MikeSmith> | gsnedders: already in Webkit nightlies |
| 09:11 | <MikeSmith> | dunno about Chrome |
| 09:14 | <MikeSmith> | (thanks to danbri for the the l's and k's) |
| 09:14 | <danbri> | careful, don't use 'em all at once |
| 09:20 | <MikeSmith> | heh |
| 09:20 | <MikeSmith> | I have a new appreciation for them |
| 09:20 | <MikeSmith> | the letter 'j' in contrast seems mostly unnecessary |
| 09:57 | zcorpan_ | has now updated http://www.w3.org/XML/Group/2009/09/xml-stylesheet.html (member-only link, sorry) |
| 10:10 | jgraham | discovers that hsivonen already sent an email saying the same things he just wrote |
| 10:37 | gsnedders | despises websites taht require www. |
| 10:39 | <annevk2> | whoa, MathML comments thread is still ongoing |
| 10:39 | <annevk2> | and it is long |
| 10:39 | <annevk2> | geez |
| 10:39 | <zcorpan> | we don't have consensus on whether we need to have consensus on comments |
| 10:41 | gsnedders | think he's going to have fun when he gets around to catching up on email |
| 10:45 | <annevk2> | zcorpan, new laptop? |
| 10:45 | <zcorpan> | annevk2: no |
| 10:46 | <zcorpan> | annevk2: well, at least not the past year or so |
| 10:49 | <annevk2> | there was this message ID ending in macbook.local from you |
| 10:49 | <annevk2> | didn't know you had a MacBook |
| 10:50 | <gsnedders> | It's not as if he had it at the engineering eminar :) |
| 10:50 | <annevk2> | did he? |
| 10:51 | <zcorpan> | i only used it on the last day, probably after anne had left |
| 10:51 | gsnedders | shrugs shoulders |
| 10:51 | <gsnedders> | You left it before we went back to Linkoping |
| 10:52 | <annevk2> | I'm just saying it because the only laptop I can remember zcorpan having is one with a somewhat broken screen |
| 10:52 | <zcorpan> | that one doesn't boot anymore |
| 10:52 | <zcorpan> | or at least not last time i tried |
| 10:52 | gsnedders | stops playing around on Facebook and gets back to trying to do uni application stuff |
| 11:39 | <jgraham> | anyone fancy mentioning html5lib on http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=930717 ? |
| 11:40 | <Philip`> | jgraham: The original poster of that story stole your name :-( |
| 11:42 | <jgraham> | Philip`: I don't have the spare "c" lying around though |
| 11:57 | <jgraham> | BTW I just reran the parsing speed tests that Ian Bicking did and I get html5lib elementtree / lxml = 35 compared to 50 that he got |
| 11:58 | <jgraham> | So either we are faster or the test isn't that reliable or my machine is sufficiently different from his to make the comparison meaningless or my lxml is slower |
| 11:58 | <jgraham> | Or something else |
| 12:01 | <Philip`> | I think there were quite a few speedups of html5lib since those results were originally published, so it seems likely that that's the cause of the relative improvement |
| 12:01 | <jgraham> | Yeah, I was expecting some speedup. But I also made things slower again |
| 12:02 | <jgraham> | So I'm not totally sure what the net change is |
| 12:02 | <Philip`> | I think most of the slowness was in the tokeniser and I couldn't find any easy way to make that faster in pure Python |
| 12:02 | <jgraham> | (in particular all the namespace support makes things slower) |
| 12:03 | <jgraham> | Philip`: I think there are a number of microoptimisations that one could make |
| 12:03 | <jgraham> | But I don't know if any of them would have a significant effect |
| 12:05 | <Philip`> | I experimented a tiny bit with writing loops to just extract tag names from input like "aaaa<foo>test<etc>", and none were significantly faster than the entire html5lib tokeniser |
| 12:05 | <jgraham> | (in fact there was a whole thread on python-discuss about how html5lib was clearly written by a bunch of idiots becuase we didn't make every posssible optimisation and dared to use if statements rather than dictionary lookups + function calls) |
| 12:06 | <jgraham> | (note: iirc we weren't actually ever called a bunch of idiots) |
| 12:06 | <annevk2> | though we clearly are |
| 12:06 | <jgraham> | (also we did get one useful patch out of it which was nice) |
| 12:06 | <Philip`> | If I remember correctly, almost all the time is spent in the data state and attribute value states |
| 12:07 | <annevk2> | jgraham, seems a bit pointless to waste a thread on that indeed |
| 12:07 | <annevk2> | jgraham, if Python had a decent HTML parser we would not have to write one... |
| 12:08 | <Philip`> | annevk2: By "decent" you mean "implements the HTML5 spec precisely"? |
| 12:09 | <Philip`> | Python seems to have a good excuse in that case, since HTML5 didn't exist when its standard library parsers were written |
| 12:10 | <jgraham> | Philip`: If by decent you mean "usable for common tasks" and by "python" you mean "the python standard library" it seems like a fair comment irrespective of HTML5 conformance |
| 12:11 | <jgraham> | (note the fact that the blog post author from the ycombinator article above was complaining that someone used regexps because they were better than the stdlib) |
| 12:11 | <Philip`> | So if Python had a standard usable HTML-parsing library (that didn't follow the HTML5 spec) then nobody would have written html5lib? |
| 12:11 | <annevk2> | Philip`, naturally |
| 12:11 | <jgraham> | I would have written html5lib still |
| 12:11 | <jgraham> | Because the goal for me was to understand that part of the spec not to produce the best possible tool |
| 12:12 | <gsnedders|work> | What difference does processing textarea in the "text" insertion mode make? |
| 12:12 | <jgraham> | The fact that I incidentially produced a tool that I now use all the time is happy coincidence |
| 12:12 | <jgraham> | too many incidences |
| 12:12 | <gsnedders|work> | As the tokenizer is in RCDATA mode, the only end tag that can be outputted is textarea, so it should make none |
| 12:16 | <Philip`> | (By the way, removing parse error support would probably make html5lib measurably faster (like 5% or something), since line-counting in the input stream was a bit slow when I last checked) |
| 12:17 | <gsnedders|work> | I thought we only did line-counting upon throwing an error, now |
| 12:18 | <Philip`> | How could that work? It would have thrown away all the input data by that point, and it'd be too late to count |
| 12:20 | <Philip`> | Oh, it computes the position at the end of every chunk, then adds counts from the current chunk when there's an error |
| 12:21 | <Philip`> | I don't think it did that when I last looked :-p |
| 12:21 | <jgraham> | I think that was one of the results of the python-discuss thread |
| 12:21 | <Philip`> | Was that a recent thread? |
| 12:21 | <jgraham> | Philip`: Sometime over the summer iirc |
| 12:22 | <Philip`> | I thought you meant some thread I vaguely remembered from many years ago |
| 12:22 | <jgraham> | (that issue wasn't discussed on the thread because people were too busy getting upset at the use of if statements) |
| 12:27 | <Philip`> | Maybe html5lib should come with a set of benchmarks, and if somebody suggests an optimisation then tell them to demonstrate it has a real effect first |
| 12:28 | <gsnedders|work> | Philip`, There's an if statement in that sentence. |
| 12:28 | <jgraham> | http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2009-July/187459.html |
| 12:28 | <jgraham> | Philip`: Seems reasonable |
| 12:29 | <jgraham> | Then we could track perf too :) |
| 12:30 | <Philip`> | Hmm, is he suggesting additions to the Python language in order to help performance? |
| 12:30 | <Philip`> | I thought experience with JavaScript indicates you can make dynamic languages zillions of times faster without changing the language itself |
| 12:31 | <jgraham> | It suggests that you can make jsvascript faster without changing the language |
| 12:31 | <gsnedders|work> | It'd be interesting to download a copy of unladen swallow and benchmark using that |
| 12:31 | <jgraham> | I'm not clear how well it generalizes |
| 12:32 | <jgraham> | (like I'm sure you can make it faster but does the lack of __getattr__, for example, make javascript easier to optimize) |
| 12:32 | <Philip`> | Psyco indicates you can make Python a lot faster |
| 12:32 | <Philip`> | without changing the language |
| 12:32 | <jgraham> | s/)/?)/ |
| 12:32 | <jgraham> | Sure. I don't doubt that it can be faster. I'm less clear whether you can get the same factor speedups as for javascript in the general case |
| 12:33 | <jgraham> | (rather than for special cases like code that does a lot of arithmetic operations) |
| 12:33 | <Philip`> | JS engines don't give you the same factor speedup in the general case |
| 12:34 | <Philip`> | They optimise for programs that have lots of static features like classes (objects with the same structure) and don't use crazy JS features (like with and eval) |
| 12:34 | <Philip`> | and presumably you could do the same for Python |
| 12:35 | <jgraham> | Hopefully |
| 12:36 | <Philip`> | Python doesn't even have prototypes to mae property access complex |
| 12:36 | <Philip`> | s//k/ |
| 12:37 | <Philip`> | Maybe someone should profile CPython running html5lib |
| 12:41 | <Philip`> | "There's a comment in the code that it would be useful to run a few billion lines of HTML through an instrumented version of the parser to decide in which order the IF statements should be executed. You shouldn't have to do that." - you don't have to do that, because you could get a representative sample with a few hundred pages, and it because it makes pretty much zero difference in practice |
| 12:43 | jgraham | thought he had removed that comment |
| 12:43 | <zcorpan> | maybe it would also still be useful to do even though python was fast |
| 12:58 | <zcorpan> | what should happen for onclick = 1; per html5? |
| 12:58 | <zcorpan> | should getting onclick return 1 or null? |
| 13:01 | zcorpan | means the IDL attribute |
| 13:03 | <zcorpan> | "Event handler IDL attributes, on setting, must set the corresponding event handler to their new value, and on getting, must return whatever the current value of the corresponding event handler is (possibly null)." |
| 13:03 | <hsivonen> | do the top 5 browsers all use libpng and the IJG's JPEG decoder? |
| 13:08 | zcorpan | can't make sense out of webidl |
| 13:16 | jgraham | thinks it should throw TypeError |
| 13:17 | <jgraham> | Following the rules in http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/WebIDL/#es-interface |
| 13:18 | <zcorpan> | oh ie throws |
| 13:18 | <zcorpan> | opera sets it to null |
| 13:18 | <zcorpan> | firefox sets it to 1 |
| 13:19 | <zcorpan> | and chrome sets it to null |
| 13:20 | <zcorpan> | thanks jgraham |
| 13:41 | <gsnedders|work> | Is there anyway to use grep to search for U+0008? |
| 13:43 | <Philip`> | gsnedders|work: grep -P '\x08' |
| 13:43 | <gsnedders|work> | Philip`, Thx |
| 13:46 | <Philip`> | Why would a third-party power adapter cause my laptop to work fine except that the touchpad is unreliable (the cursor moves stickily) when it's plugged in? |
| 13:46 | <Philip`> | (It works fine with the official adapter, or when it's unplugged) |
| 13:47 | <jgraham> | Philip`: Depends in some odd way on the precise voltage? |
| 13:47 | <jgraham> | Or the stability of the voltage? |
| 13:49 | <Philip`> | I suppose that's possible, but it seems a bit odd |
| 13:50 | <jgraham> | Well it seems a bit odd that there would be a problem at all |
| 13:51 | <Philip`> | Indeed |
| 13:51 | <Philip`> | When it first happened I wondered if my fingers were broken |
| 13:51 | <Philip`> | and had stopped emitting whatever signals the touchpad picks up |
| 13:52 | <Philip`> | but it's definitely a problem that occurs when (and only when) I have this adapter plugged in |
| 13:57 | danbri | finds http://neosmart.net/blog/2009/watch-youtube-videos-in-html5/ |
| 13:57 | <danbri> | oh http://www.youtube.com/html5 :) |
| 14:00 | <TabAtkins> | If I've already installed a webkit nightly, and I'm staring at its folder right now, what do I click to make it run again? |
| 14:00 | TabAtkins | has tried FindSafari and run-nightly-webkit |
| 14:01 | <Rik|work> | TabAtkins: run-nightly-webkit should work |
| 14:01 | <Rik|work> | (if you have Safari installed) |
| 14:02 | <TabAtkins> | Yeah, I ran this particular nightly already. It keeps erroring out with a generic windows crash message, though. ;_; |
| 14:06 | <Rik|work> | oh, then I won't know |
| 14:06 | <Rik|work> | TabAtkins: is it the latest nightly ? |
| 14:07 | <TabAtkins> | No, from a few days back. Probably Tuesday. |
| 14:07 | <Rik|work> | then I'll suggest trying the latest nightly and if it still doesn't work, file a bug |
| 14:09 | <TabAtkins> | Doing so now. |
| 14:10 | <Dashiva> | How did I miss this for five months: http://technology.todaysbigthing.com/2009/06/25 |
| 14:14 | <hsivonen> | Dashiva: that's rather depressing from the point of view of browser competition |
| 14:16 | <erlehmann_> | can a safari user test this ? data:text/html;,<video src="http://c13014-o.d.core.cdn.streamfarm.net/13014bundestag/ondemand/3777parlamentsfernsehen/archiv/app144277506/145293313/381248/381248_h264_720_576_2000kb_de_2192.mp4">; |
| 14:19 | <Rik|work> | erlehmann_: what do you want to test ? |
| 14:19 | <erlehmann_> | Rik|work, does it work with safari ? i heard there were some weird issues regarding h.264 profiles |
| 14:20 | <Rik|work> | it works in the nightly |
| 14:20 | <hsivonen> | erlehmann_: WFM in Safari 4 on SL if I add the controls attribute |
| 14:20 | <erlehmann_> | nice. |
| 14:20 | <Rik|work> | yeah, I add to add the controls attribute too |
| 14:21 | <Rik|work> | had |
| 14:21 | <hsivonen> | erlehmann_: now if Bundestag provided Theora video... |
| 14:21 | <erlehmann_> | Rik|work, now i'll just add that to something. wait. |
| 14:22 | <erlehmann_> | hsivonen, i'm doing a proof of concept right now and going to send that to the technician. |
| 14:26 | <Philip`> | erlehmann_: Make it work on an iPhone |
| 14:26 | <Philip`> | Then everyone will think it's really cool |
| 14:27 | <erlehmann_> | wait. i'm nearly done |
| 14:28 | <erlehmann_> | Philip`, hsivonen, Rik|work http://daten.dieweltistgarnichtso.net/src/bundestag-html5-demo/od_player.html |
| 14:28 | <erlehmann_> | video with two source elements and flash fallback |
| 14:28 | <erlehmann_> | theora, h.264 |
| 14:28 | <erlehmann_> | does it work everywhere? |
| 14:29 | <Philip`> | Works in Firefox on Linux |
| 14:29 | <gsnedders|work> | Not in IE without Flash installed. |
| 14:29 | <Philip`> | (3.5) |
| 14:30 | <Rik|work> | erlehmann_: I can't really tell, I have the quicktime ogg plugin installed |
| 14:30 | <Philip`> | Works in Chromium on Linux too |
| 14:30 | <erlehmann_> | gsnedders|work, that's intented, you insensitive clod. ;) |
| 14:30 | <hsivonen> | erlehmann_: have you tested your embedding sample code from a different Origin? |
| 14:30 | <Philip`> | (playing the .ogv) |
| 14:30 | hsivonen | predicts it won't work |
| 14:30 | <gsnedders|work> | erlehmann_, You asked if there was anywhere it wouldn't work. |
| 14:30 | <erlehmann_> | hsivonen, there are no origin headers. why are you asking ? |
| 14:31 | <hsivonen> | erlehmann_: your demo page itself works in Minefield and Safari for me |
| 14:31 | <erlehmann_> | i salute all of you then :) |
| 14:31 | <erlehmann_> | lets hope the bundestag tech department also sees the merit of it. |
| 14:31 | <hsivonen> | erlehmann_: unless you use CORS to permit cross-Origin use of the .ogv video, I expect it not to work in Firefox cross-origin |
| 14:32 | <Philip`> | erlehmann_: What merit? |
| 14:32 | <Philip`> | erlehmann_: I assume their Flash version already works, and is easier to set up since there's fewer encodings :-) |
| 14:33 | <erlehmann_> | it does. but it is clunky and cumbersome. we'll see. |
| 14:33 | <hsivonen> | Philip`: video without the plug-in prison! |
| 14:33 | <erlehmann_> | playable with elinks and vlc-nox !! |
| 14:34 | <Philip`> | I don't know many prisons where 98% of the world are voluntary inmates, so that's not a perfect analogy |
| 14:34 | <Philip`> | (NB: I just made that number up) |
| 14:34 | <hsivonen> | Philip`: is Flash a voluntary inmate? |
| 14:34 | <gsnedders|work> | 99.98% of all statistics are made up on the spot. |
| 14:35 | <workmad3> | Philip`: I think adobe advertises about a 95% install percentage of flash players in general |
| 14:35 | <Philip`> | Oh, it's a prison for technologies rather than for users? |
| 14:35 | <gsnedders|work> | workmad3, I think Adobe have an interest in that number being ficticously high |
| 14:36 | <hsivonen> | Philip`: as I understand it, when Adobe evangelists say "plug-in prison", they mean Chrome's or Safari's on SL out-of-process plug-in host |
| 14:36 | <workmad3> | gsnedders|work: true... they could be monitoring just sites which require flash installed ;) |
| 14:36 | <hsivonen> | Philip`: maybe I've understood their terminology wrong |
| 14:36 | <Philip`> | hsivonen: I assumed you were using the term in the sense of locking users into proprietary plugins |
| 14:37 | <erlehmann_> | Philip`, open standards are a minority right |
| 14:37 | <Philip`> | I do very much like how the browsers have right-click save-video-as commands |
| 14:37 | <Philip`> | which is a compelling advantage over Flash for a user |
| 14:37 | <Rik|work> | Philip`: is it ? |
| 14:37 | <Philip`> | though perhaps a disadvantage for video publishers |
| 14:38 | <Philip`> | Rik|work: Well, for some users at least :-) |
| 14:38 | <Philip`> | Rik|work: particularly the ones who use all these tools and extensions and services for downloading Youtube videos |
| 14:38 | <Rik|work> | Philip`: safari doesn't have that menu and there's a lot of easy to use tools to get the videos |
| 14:38 | <Philip`> | The tools are hard to use, because you have to find them and install them |
| 14:38 | <hsivonen> | Rik|work: I think it's a bug in Safari |
| 14:39 | <Philip`> | which takes a lot more effort than right-clicking |
| 14:39 | <Rik|work> | hsivonen: I think so too |
| 14:40 | <erlehmann_> | Rik|work, safari probably doesnt have a save menu for image either, amirite? |
| 14:40 | <gsnedders|work> | It does |
| 14:40 | <Rik|work> | erlehmann_: no you're wrong :) |
| 14:41 | <erlehmann_> | damn controc freaks |
| 14:41 | gsnedders|work | guesses it's more just nobody-bothered-to-implement-this |
| 14:41 | hsivonen | wonders if there's a law requiring German sites to have an "Impressum" or whether it's just a custom that everyone honors |
| 14:42 | <erlehmann_> | hsivonen, its required, at least for commercial sites |
| 14:42 | <hsivonen> | erlehmann_: ok. |
| 14:42 | <erlehmann_> | people got sued for it |
| 14:42 | <Rik|work> | "Impressum" ? |
| 14:42 | <erlehmann_> | though WHOIS is that function, in a way |
| 14:42 | <erlehmann_> | stupid legislators |
| 14:43 | <crash\> | Rik|work: imprint |
| 14:43 | <Rik|work> | well, I've learned a new word in both English and German |
| 14:43 | <crash\> | erlehmann_: domain whois is one thing |
| 14:44 | <erlehmann_> | crash\, the people who got sued were in almost all cases those who owned the domain. |
| 14:44 | <erlehmann_> | we have weird laws in here, well. |
| 14:45 | <crash\> | why that's wired? |
| 14:45 | <crash\> | only .de domain whoises contain personal data |
| 14:46 | <crash\> | it good for customers to check, which company own a website |
| 14:46 | <crash\> | so I think an imprint is a good thing |
| 17:15 | <Philip`> | The <base> proposal sounds pretty much exactly like xmlns prefixes and CURIEs |
| 17:15 | <Philip`> | (only for resolvable resources, rather than for identifiers) |
| 17:16 | <Philip`> | (and with different syntax) |
| 17:16 | <Philip`> | GPHemsley: People shoot down almost every single proposal because almost every single proposal deserves to be shot down ;-) |
| 17:17 | <GPHemsley> | meh :P |
| 17:17 | <Philip`> | The alternative would be accepting more proposals, thus making HTML far more complex than it already is |
| 17:18 | <GPHemsley> | "more complex" == "more useful", sometimes |
| 17:18 | <Philip`> | Sometimes, but rarely |
| 17:19 | <Philip`> | Few proposals are for features that can't already be implemented relatively straightforwardly with different syntax or with some scripting |
| 17:20 | <Philip`> | so they're not trying to make HTML more powerful, just trying to make it easier to use for certain cases |
| 17:20 | <GPHemsley> | perhaps, but I don't think every new feature should be off-loaded on a script |
| 17:22 | <jgraham> | They're not. For example no one has suggested using script rather than <video> |
| 17:23 | <Philip`> | GPHemsley: Nor do I, but features that are only useful to a tiny fraction of people will result in less global complexity if they're implemented in script by each of those people rather than being part of the standardised language |
| 17:37 | <TabAtkins> | hsivonen: The rumor is true. At least the MS guy I was around most of the time prints CSS specs. |
| 17:52 | <TabAtkins> | In current browsers, if I have two valid background rules for the same element the first (modulo specificity) will be discarded before it requests the image in it, right? |
| 17:53 | <TabAtkins> | (I'm wondering if I can switch on current gradient support while still falling back to a generated gradient image, without the generated image being requested in browsers that can do native gradients. |
| 17:56 | <JonathanNeal> | TabAtkins, you could use Modernizr |
| 17:56 | <JonathanNeal> | http://www.modernizr.com/ |
| 17:57 | <TabAtkins> | Hmm, good idea. I'd have to ask if they're testing for FF gradients yet, though (probably not). |
| 17:58 | <TabAtkins> | Also: it actually still wouldn't answer my original question, because I'd have do something like "foo{ background:url()} .gradients foo { background:linear-gradient();}" |
| 17:58 | <JonathanNeal> | Tab_Atkins, Paul Irish, the guy who works a lot on it spends a good deal of time in the #jquery channel, you could ask him, but also http://github.com/Modernizr/Modernizr/commit/c36a886b4fec36a7461ba8d96174986bf4dc41be |
| 17:59 | <TabAtkins> | And I'm not certain that the browsers will toss away the former before making the request. |
| 17:59 | <TabAtkins> | JonathanNeal: Ah, thanks for the link. They do indeed test, then. |
| 18:01 | <TabAtkins> | (I'd use :not(.gradients) foo for the former, but that would defeat the purpose of making it useable in downlevel clients.) |
| 18:02 | <TabAtkins> | Alternately, I could just read wtf Modernizr actually does, and notice right on the front page that it would put *either* .gradients or .no-gradients on, so I can actively test for either. |
| 18:02 | <JonathanNeal> | :-) |
| 18:10 | <JonathanNeal> | he's alive! |
| 18:13 | <paul_irish> | TabAtkins: basically you set all the vendor specific css gradent css strings.. you apply them to an element.. and then you read whats in elem.style.backgroundImage .. if it contains the text 'gradient', you assume support |
| 18:13 | <TabAtkins> | paul_irish: Yeah, no confusion there. My question was related to whether or not a rule is discarded (when a more specific rule applies) before any resources requested in the first rule are requested. |
| 18:14 | <TabAtkins> | But Modernizr is set up so that I don't have to explicitly rely on specificity, so the question is moot at the moment. |
| 18:14 | <paul_irish> | i dig. |
| 18:18 | <ment> | hi |
| 18:19 | <TabAtkins> | Hi. |
| 18:50 | <JonathanNeal> | hi |
| 19:11 | TabAtkins | is convinced by a single example that we should be using asymmetric delimiters for our strings. |
| 19:12 | TabAtkins | believes, thusly, that all existing programming languages are badwrong. |
| 19:12 | <TabAtkins> | Except Lisp, and anything else with the equivalent of read-macros. |
| 19:12 | <virtuelv> | TabAtkins: and what is that single example? |
| 19:12 | <TabAtkins> | Something on a mailing list. Basically this code: |
| 19:13 | <TabAtkins> | (print <I'm a string containg <html> code.>) |
| 19:13 | <TabAtkins> | As long as you balance your delimiters within the string, no escaping is required. |
| 19:16 | <roc> | intriguing |
| 19:18 | Hixie | notes perl supports that |
| 19:19 | <TabAtkins> | You can't claim support for a syntax feature when every possible sequence of bytes is a valid program. ^_^ |
| 19:19 | <Hixie> | print qq<I'm a string containg <html> code.\n>; |
| 19:19 | <Hixie> | ...works as you want it to |
| 19:19 | <Hixie> | "qq" is an operator meaning "the next character is the start of a double-quoted string" |
| 19:20 | <Hixie> | so qq<...> is a stirng |
| 19:20 | <Hixie> | string |
| 19:20 | <TabAtkins> | Yeah, got that. |
| 19:20 | <Hixie> | if the first character is one of <, [, (, or {, then the close character is the matching one, and nested quotes are allowed |
| 19:21 | <TabAtkins> | I just used (make-string-reader #\< #\>) (the code for the function is trivial if you understand read-macros) and it was done. |
| 19:21 | <TabAtkins> | Erm, ignore the alien face if you see it. Should be a > followed by a ). |
| 19:23 | <TabAtkins> | But I suppose Perl slips in with "the equivalent of read-macros" for this case, since it *is* a language construct changing the parsing of subsequent code. |
| 19:23 | <Hixie> | qq< is just the same as " |
| 19:23 | <Hixie> | one uses this a lot with regexps |
| 19:24 | <Hixie> | s/.../.../ is the same as s"..."..." or s<...><...> or s&...&...& |
| 19:24 | <TabAtkins> | I do very much enjoy the ability to change the regexp delimiter. |
| 19:25 | <Hixie> | (you have to have spaces around there if the character you want to quote is a letter, so it doesn't get confused for an identifier, but going there is just silly.) |
| 19:25 | <TabAtkins> | I didn't know about the details of the third one, though (s<…><…>). |
| 19:25 | <TabAtkins> | I've used s|…|…| before, when working with paths. |
| 19:26 | <Hixie> | yeah i use | a lot |
| 19:30 | <virtuelv> | I'll grant you the "intriguing" |
| 19:31 | <virtuelv> | incidentally, this ambiguity, together with the hard-to-type proper English quotation marks is why I'm trying to abandon said quotation marks in text |
| 19:31 | <virtuelv> | and stick to guillemets for all languages |
| 19:31 | <virtuelv> | lack of ambiguity, even |
| 19:32 | <Hixie> | i think mjs and i just fell for the same trick |
| 19:32 | <TabAtkins> | I'm actually about to go assign the curly quotes to my keyboard. AltGr is useful. |
| 19:32 | <Hixie> | mikesmith's e-mail has reply-to: public-html, but he asks for replies to him |
| 19:32 | <TabAtkins> | So what's the trick? |
| 19:34 | <Hixie> | the reply-to |
| 19:35 | <TabAtkins> | I may be parsing your sentence differently than you intend me to. Was it a trick, or just a mistake? |
| 19:35 | <Hixie> | mike tricked us into making am istake |
| 19:37 | <TabAtkins> | Do you presume it to be an intentional trick? |
| 19:37 | <gsnedders|work> | Yes, MikeSmith is pure evil. |
| 19:37 | <TabAtkins> | kk, will keep that in mind. |
| 19:38 | TabAtkins | thought that anybody with a cowboy hat can't be *all* evil… |
| 19:40 | TabAtkins | is also annoyed that javascript isn't a true functional language, so he can't easily pass operators as arguments to functions. |
| 19:42 | <TabAtkins> | Oh! Also, anyone who interacted with me on Friday should be aware that I was coming down with a head-cold at the time. It's nothing serious, but also not very comfortable. |
| 19:42 | <roc> | oh please |
| 19:42 | <roc> | very few functional languages support passing operators as arguments to functions |
| 19:43 | <TabAtkins> | Yes, which is what annoys me. I've gotten used to it. |
| 19:43 | <roc> | because in statically typed languages, overloading issues get in the way |
| 19:43 | <TabAtkins> | Haskell is statically typed and is fine with it. |
| 19:44 | <roc> | good for them |
| 19:44 | <TabAtkins> | The issue is probably languages with insufficiently advanced static typing. I don't use those languages. |
| 19:47 | TabAtkins | doesn't use languages with sufficiently advanced static typing either, fwiw. Strong dynamic typing rox my sox. |
| 19:50 | <Dashiva> | TabAtkins: Is it that different from passing a function pointer instead? |
| 19:51 | <TabAtkins> | Dashiva: Not materially. |
| 19:51 | <TabAtkins> | But you have to create a function that mimics the operator first. |
| 19:51 | <Dashiva> | Isn't that a 10-character lambda? |
| 19:51 | <TabAtkins> | Slightly longer, generally, in js, but yes. |
| 19:52 | <TabAtkins> | It just annoys me to have to throw wrapper lambdas around when I've got the function right in front of me, but the language's syntax doesn't allow me to use it. |
| 20:06 | Philip` | likes it when language syntaxes are optimised for the common case, rather than being equally average for writing all imaginable code |
| 20:07 | <TabAtkins> | Oh, agreed, certainly. My common case is passing around everything as a function. |
| 20:08 | <TabAtkins> | Which is why I was annoyed. Not saying it's wrong to do otherwise. |
| 20:09 | <Philip`> | Sounds like you need to spend more time calling functions and less time just passing them around everywhere ;-) |
| 20:10 | <TabAtkins> | Bah. Nothing wrong with wanting to do [1,2,3].reduce(+);. ^_^ |
| 20:11 | <Philip`> | I prefer 1+2+3 |
| 20:11 | <Philip`> | Actually I'd just write 6 |
| 20:12 | <TabAtkins> | Nice when you can do so. |
| 20:12 | <Philip`> | Or I'd write sum(numbers) |
| 20:12 | <TabAtkins> | Not so much when you have an array you need to sum. (Or in the more general case, when you have an array you need to do something arbitrary to.) |
| 20:14 | <TabAtkins> | I'd probably write a sum function as well. But I'd prefer to implement it with fast functional forms, because they're so easy. |
| 20:14 | <TabAtkins> | But anyway, I was just whinging about preferences. Not making technical points. |
| 21:00 | virtuelv | reads hixie's mail to public-device-apis |
| 21:00 | <virtuelv> | and notes that Opera's long-standing strawman proposal meets every requirement |
| 21:00 | <virtuelv> | and that also is able to treat archives transparently as if they were folders |
| 21:01 | <virtuelv> | (useful for reading (open-)office documents |
| 21:24 | <TabAtkins> | Where's the note that devices without sufficient resources to, frex, play videos can just *not* play the video? |
| 21:24 | <TabAtkins> | I'm certain there's a generic note to that effect, but I'm having trouble finding it. |
| 21:25 | <TabAtkins> | (can do so without being nonconformant, that is) |
| 21:25 | <Philip`> | The one about arbitrary resource limitations which basically means you can disregard the entire spec and still be conforming? |
| 21:28 | <TabAtkins> | Yes. |
| 21:30 | <Philip`> | http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/infrastructure.html#conformance-requirements |
| 21:31 | <Philip`> | "User agents may impose implementation-specific limits on otherwise unconstrained inputs, e.g. to prevent denial of service attacks, to guard against running out of memory, or to work around platform-specific limitations." ? |
| 21:32 | <TabAtkins> | Okay, that was the line I thought it might be, but I wasn't entirely clear on it. |
| 21:32 | <TabAtkins> | I'm guessing that sort of thing falls under "platform-specific limitations". |
| 22:51 | <Hixie> | my package has been "out for delivery" for 10 hours now |
| 22:51 | <Hixie> | exactly how long can it take to deliver packages from one truck to places around the town? |
| 22:52 | <JonathanNeal> | You'll find out. |
| 22:53 | <Hixie> | i'm skeptical the package exists |
| 22:53 | <Hixie> | it's the third one i've ordered, the previous two being canceled for being "out of stock" after 4 weeks each |
| 23:07 | <JonathanNeal> | Moon People 2 ? |
| 23:07 | <Philip`> | You should parallelise by ordering three at once, then getting a refund if more than one arrives |
| 23:21 | <Hixie> | Philip`: sending stuff back is a huge pain |