| 00:56 | roc | is fascinated that Microsoft is endorsing Acid3 |
| 00:58 | <othermaciej> | kinda crazy... |
| 01:05 | <AryehGregor> | It didn't look to me like they were endorsing it. I heard something like "We're trying to focus on what web developers really want to see, not Acid3". They're mentioning it, but it doesn't look like they're committing to actually passing it. |
| 01:06 | <Philip`> | They give it legitimacy by mentioning it |
| 01:07 | <AryehGregor> | Yes, it's quite interesting exactly how they phrase things. |
| 01:10 | <Philip`> | Be careful not to read too much into exactly how they phrase things :-) |
| 01:15 | <AryehGregor> | Rats, dglazkov just quit. I wanted to talk to him. |
| 01:31 | <MikeSmith> | AryehGregor: dglazkov is back |
| 01:31 | <AryehGregor> | Yeah, thanks. I'm talking to him in #chromium. |
| 01:35 | <roc> | by mentioning their Acid3 score, without trashing Acid3, they're implicitly endorsing it |
| 01:41 | <AryehGregor> | They did trash Acid3. ". . . even with some shortcomings. . . . many still in the “working draft” stage . . . including many edge cases and error conditions. . . . A more meaningful (from the point of view of web developers) example of standards support involves rounded corners. |
| 01:41 | <AryehGregor> | " |
| 01:41 | <AryehGregor> | Also note "the score will continue to go up", not "we ever plan to reach 100". |
| 01:42 | <AryehGregor> | Translation: we don't think Acid3 is a good test and won't pass it. |
| 01:42 | <AryehGregor> | We can't be bothered to implement SVG, but IE9 supports rounded corners! Yay! |
| 01:47 | <roc> | they didn't trash it enough |
| 01:49 | <AryehGregor> | I bet it's because they don't want to be seen as anti-standards. |
| 01:49 | <AryehGregor> | Just being diplomatic. |
| 01:50 | <othermaciej> | AryehGregor: Microsoft folks have been posting on the SVG list - I would guess they have some interest |
| 01:51 | <AryehGregor> | Hmm, that's good to hear. |
| 01:51 | <othermaciej> | also, rounded corners are tasty low-hanging fruit |
| 01:51 | <othermaciej> | I wouldn't criticize them for that sort of thing |
| 01:51 | <othermaciej> | (assuming they did it with border-radius) |
| 01:51 | <TabAtkins> | othermaciej: They did. |
| 01:52 | <AryehGregor> | I can't complain too much, anyway. IE8 has excellent CSS 2.1 support. MediaWiki doesn't have a CSS fixes file for it -- the first IE version ever that actually works with our standard markup. |
| 01:52 | <AryehGregor> | Actually, we have no CSS fixes for the latest version of any browser, last I checked. |
| 01:52 | <othermaciej> | Microsoft is definitely stepping their game up |
| 01:52 | <AryehGregor> | The world is a lovely interoperable place now. |
| 01:52 | <TabAtkins> | AryehGregor: Next time you run into an IE employee, tell them that. They love hearing that IE8 isn't a backwater anymore. |
| 01:52 | <TabAtkins> | s/IE8/IE/ |
| 01:53 | <AryehGregor> | The problem with IE6 and 7 wasn't that they didn't implement enough standards, it's that they got them horribly wrong. |
| 01:53 | <AryehGregor> | IE8 doesn't implement much, but what it does implement, it largely gets right. |
| 01:53 | <AryehGregor> | So you can't use fancy new features, but you can serve the same code to everyone. |
| 01:53 | <AryehGregor> | Which is the most important thing. |
| 01:53 | <AryehGregor> | At least, as far as CSS goes. |
| 01:53 | <TabAtkins> | Yup, that's been my experience. I don't have to throw any special CSS at IE anymore. |
| 01:54 | <AryehGregor> | I've heard the JavaScript situation isn't as cheerful. |
| 01:54 | <jcranmer> | you mean DOM |
| 01:54 | <TabAtkins> | Eh, jQuery makes that a non-issue for me, for the most part. |
| 01:54 | <AryehGregor> | I don't do JS much, I don't really know the difference between it and DOM in practice. |
| 01:54 | <AryehGregor> | And true, JS has libraries, so in-browser support isn't essential. |
| 01:55 | <AryehGregor> | This is a neat site: http://a.deveria.com/caniuse/ |
| 01:55 | <TabAtkins> | *That's* the site I was trying to remember during my developer day talk! |
| 01:55 | TabAtkins | bookmarks it now. |
| 01:56 | <AryehGregor> | "Conclusion: Not ready. Waiting for Firefox 4 to expire" |
| 01:56 | <AryehGregor> | Eh? |
| 01:57 | <TabAtkins> | Heh, automated message obviously. I guess FF4 hasn't yet announced full webforms support? |
| 01:57 | <AryehGregor> | FF4 doesn't exist, the successor to 3.6 is 3.7. |
| 01:57 | <AryehGregor> | At least last I heard. |
| 01:58 | <TabAtkins> | Yeah, I think he's counting anything that's past 3.6 as 4. |
| 01:59 | <AryehGregor> | I haven't seen any Web Forms progress in Gecko, though, no. https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=344614 |
| 02:00 | <AryehGregor> | WebKit has been doing a bunch of stuff lately, and of course Opera has a pretty much complete implementation (of an older spec version). |
| 02:00 | <AryehGregor> | That was one of the things that was supposed to be enabled along with HTML5 on Wikipedia the other day, before it bombed horribly and had to be shut off. |
| 02:00 | <TabAtkins> | What about it bombed?\ |
| 02:01 | <TabAtkins> | The XHR thing? |
| 02:01 | <AryehGregor> | Yeah, XML. |
| 02:02 | <AryehGregor> | I now think that suppressing all named entities might be feasible. |
| 02:02 | <AryehGregor> | We already do it for user input, it's only the interface that's an issue. |
| 02:02 | <TabAtkins> | Yeah, didn't you say they're only in the templates? |
| 02:02 | <TabAtkins> | Cool. |
| 02:02 | <TabAtkins> | Just switch over to unicode characters. |
| 02:02 | <AryehGregor> | Not templates, those are something totally different in MediaWiki. |
| 02:02 | <AryehGregor> | Yeah, that's what we do for outputting wikitext. |
| 02:02 | <TabAtkins> | Eh, your terminology is irrelevant. ^_^ |
| 02:02 | <AryehGregor> | Saves bytes, too. |
| 02:05 | <AryehGregor> | There's a lot of hardcoded stuff, though . . . |
| 02:05 | <AryehGregor> | $ git grep ' ' phase3/ extensions/ | wc -l |
| 02:05 | <AryehGregor> | 1335 |
| 02:05 | <TabAtkins> | That's weird. Why are they using nbsps so much? I hardly ever use them. |
| 02:06 | <AryehGregor> | "they"? |
| 02:06 | <TabAtkins> | People who wrote that code. |
| 02:06 | <AryehGregor> | I don't know, I use them pretty often. |
| 02:06 | <TabAtkins> | For what? |
| 02:06 | <AryehGregor> | For . . . spaces. |
| 02:07 | <AryehGregor> | In MediaWiki you have used all over the place where you want spaces between things. |
| 02:07 | <AryehGregor> | Most of them could probably be replaced with regular spaces. |
| 02:07 | <TabAtkins> | But why nbsp when spaces would do? |
| 02:07 | <TabAtkins> | Yeah. |
| 02:07 | <AryehGregor> | Well, so it doesn't break, I guess. |
| 02:07 | <AryehGregor> | Or because you want more space. |
| 02:07 | <TabAtkins> | Then... using white-space? |
| 02:07 | <TabAtkins> | Or padding/margins? |
| 02:07 | <AryehGregor> | <td> </td> |
| 02:07 | <AryehGregor> | Does that do anything appreciably different from <td> </td>? |
| 02:07 | <TabAtkins> | I've *never* understood that. |
| 02:08 | <TabAtkins> | No. |
| 02:08 | <TabAtkins> | I cargo-culted it when I first started coding for some reason. |
| 02:08 | <TabAtkins> | But I stopped. |
| 02:08 | <AryehGregor> | extensions/Data/SpecialData.php: $s .= " <input type='hidden' name='revision' value='{$revision}' />" ; |
| 02:08 | <AryehGregor> | I guess that creates slightly more space. |
| 02:08 | <TabAtkins> | … |
| 02:08 | <TabAtkins> | Before a hidden input. |
| 02:08 | <AryehGregor> | . . . |
| 02:08 | <AryehGregor> | You're right, it's hidden. |
| 02:08 | <AryehGregor> | Heh. |
| 02:09 | <AryehGregor> | extensions/FlaggedRevs/svggraph/svgGraph.html: Number of decimal places to show for Y axis tags.</TD> |
| 02:09 | <AryehGregor> | That one actually doesn't matter, since it's a .html. |
| 02:09 | <AryehGregor> | .js also doesn't matter, and i18n can be fixed by filtering at message-output time. |
| 02:09 | <AryehGregor> | See, the thing is, I can certainly do some automatic filtering on messages or whatnot to close some of the holes. |
| 02:10 | <AryehGregor> | But I don't know if everyone will be happy with me manually removing all this stuff and telling them they can't use named entities anywhere without breaking user scripts all over the place. |
| 02:10 | <AryehGregor> | I guess I'll post to wikitech-l. |
| 02:12 | <AryehGregor> | We have lots of • too. |
| 02:12 | <TabAtkins> | You can just replace all of those with unicode characters. |
| 02:13 | <TabAtkins> | Especially •, since it's at least obvious. |
| 02:13 | <AryehGregor> | Yes, except 1) those are harder to edit, 2) what if someone adds some more? |
| 02:13 | <TabAtkins> | • |
| 02:13 | <AryehGregor> | How is it obvious? |
| 02:13 | <TabAtkins> | It's obvious that it's not a normal ascii character? |
| 02:13 | <TabAtkins> | I mean, it's a bullet -->• |
| 02:13 | <TabAtkins> | Unlike nbsp, which looks like a normal space. |
| 02:13 | <AryehGregor> | Oh, I see, yes. |
| 02:14 | <AryehGregor> | nbsp is a pain. |
| 02:14 | <TabAtkins> | Replace nbsp with its unicode escape |
| 02:14 | <TabAtkins> | Then it's still visibly different, but won't fuck with xml. |
| 02:15 | <AryehGregor> | So, other than nbsp, and leaving aside messages that can be automatically fixed (I hope), we don't seem to have *too* many issues. |
| 02:15 | <TabAtkins> | Cool. |
| 02:15 | <AryehGregor> | The problem is mainly that this would add evil and hard-to-notice bugs. |
| 02:15 | <TabAtkins> | Yeah, that'll be a problem until XHR2 gets adopted. |
| 02:15 | <AryehGregor> | For not much perceptible gain, compared to switching to an XHTML1 Strict doctype. |
| 02:16 | <AryehGregor> | Bleh, it's 9:23 already. |
| 02:17 | <miketaylr> | fwiw, here's a more fine grained support page for html5 forms, AryehGregor: http://www.miketaylr.com/code/input-type-attr.html |
| 02:17 | <miketaylr> | (saw the above conversation) |
| 02:17 | <AryehGregor> | Neat, range is supported in currentish WebKit. But it claims it also supports number and color, but those have no actual interface. |
| 02:18 | <miketaylr> | yeah, no native UIs yet |
| 02:18 | <TabAtkins> | iirc, their range support is also a bit iffy |
| 02:18 | <AryehGregor> | Well, it has a UI, anyway. |
| 02:19 | <TabAtkins> | Yeah, it works normally. I believe it just doesn't handle defaults and invalid values correctly. |
| 02:19 | <TabAtkins> | If I'm recalling my testing correctly. |
| 02:19 | <TabAtkins> | I filed a bug on them, at any rate. |
| 02:33 | <AryehGregor> | It looks like Python's xml.sax also hardcodes magical DTDs. |
| 02:34 | <AryehGregor> | Oh, dear, no. |
| 02:34 | <AryehGregor> | It actually retrieves the DTD? |
| 02:35 | <AryehGregor> | Yeah, it does. |
| 02:35 | <AryehGregor> | Lovely. |
| 02:35 | <TabAtkins> | Hope it likes blacklisting. |
| 02:35 | <AryehGregor> | So, I don't know how to justify changing everyone's to  . |
| 02:36 | <AryehGregor> | It's a real pain and is only needed because of the lack of a DTD. Theoretically named entities are unreliable even with an XHTML doctype, but in practice it seems they aren't. |
| 02:36 | <AryehGregor> | So I guess it's an XHTML 1.0 Strict doctype for us. |
| 02:37 | <TabAtkins> | Hex is inherently more beautiful. |
| 02:40 | <AryehGregor> | "Great! Cannot wait to use 96 point Gabriola on all my sites and rest assured that there won't be jaggies! That was on the top of my list of wants for IE9!" lol. |
| 02:40 | <TabAtkins> | Heh. For serious, though, prettier font rendering is a necessity in pretty much everywhere. |
| 02:40 | <AryehGregor> | But the avoiding jaggies thing is only really relevant at very large font sizes, surely. |
| 02:41 | <TabAtkins> | No, gods no. |
| 02:41 | <TabAtkins> | It's very important at small sizes. |
| 02:41 | <TabAtkins> | Perhaps *more* important. |
| 02:41 | <AryehGregor> | Really? |
| 02:41 | <AryehGregor> | The font has to be one pixel thick at normal sizes anyway, right? |
| 02:41 | <AryehGregor> | How can that be jagged? |
| 02:41 | <TabAtkins> | Yeah. Rendering fancy fonts at small sizes using whole pixels is ugly. |
| 02:42 | <TabAtkins> | Subpixel rendering is a requirement. |
| 02:43 | <TabAtkins> | It's the whole reason fonts can look better in an image than rendered directly - the image software can use subpixel information to shade better, even if it's still coloring entire pixels. |
| 02:43 | <TabAtkins> | s/rendered directly/rendered directly by most modern browsers/ |
| 02:47 | <AryehGregor> | I'm interested by how many people in the IEBlog comments emphasize HTML5 as well as CSS3. |
| 02:48 | <TabAtkins> | Yeah, html5 is a big buzzword these days. |
| 02:48 | <TabAtkins> | Viral marketing ftw. |
| 02:49 | AryehGregor | wtfs at someone giving a long list of predictions for IE9 and adding "no SPDY support" |
| 02:50 | <AryehGregor> | Really, who'd have thought? |
| 02:50 | <TabAtkins> | I need to go look up just wtf spdy is. |
| 02:50 | <AryehGregor> | It's a Google proposal to replace a large chunk of HTTP in a reasonably practical way. |
| 02:50 | <AryehGregor> | To attain better performance, obviously. |
| 02:51 | <AryehGregor> | The idea is that it could be deployed transparently as long as both browser and web server support it, with no detectable change to applications elsewhere in the stack. |
| 02:51 | <AryehGregor> | They've got an experimental implementation based on Chrome, but it's all extremely experimental at this point. |
| 02:51 | AryehGregor | goes to bed |
| 02:53 | <TabAtkins> | Yup, just googled it. Cool. |
| 09:03 | <gsnedders> | zcorpan: I dunno what version of IE I was looking at, ask bratell :P |
| 10:06 | <hsivonen> | Intranet exploring: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1624433/intranet-and-ie8-render-mode |
| 10:10 | <roc> | IE9 will bring a whole new level of excitement to mode-setting |
| 10:12 | jgraham | wonders how the number of states in hsivonen's flowchart will scale with the number of IE releases |
| 10:13 | <Philip`> | It seems like they could reasonably drop the IE8 mode |
| 10:13 | <roc> | I think the IE team must be asking themselves the same question right about now |
| 10:14 | <roc> | I got a pretty strong impression that they were promising to have an IE8 mode in all future releases |
| 10:14 | <roc> | but maybe they'll drop it if they think they can get away with it |
| 10:15 | <Philip`> | They added the modes for real compatibility concerns, not just for fun, and it seems unlikely there'd be significant IE8->IE9 compatibility issues, since they're not redesigning the whole CSS implementation or anything |
| 10:15 | <Philip`> | and since there hasn't been so many years for legacy content to rely on the old behaviour |
| 10:16 | <hsivonen> | Philip`: I wouldn't be too surprised if IE9 had substantial compat-sensitive DOM changes |
| 10:16 | <roc> | I commented somewhere, perhaps on my own blog, that conditionalizing all your bug-fixes on modes would be nasty, but someone from Microsoft (Chris Wilson?) said "eh, it won't be that bad" |
| 10:16 | <roc> | my memory is crap |
| 10:17 | <gsnedders> | hsivonen: From where it had improved on Acid3, DOM bucket itself wasn't much improved, HTML DOM was |
| 10:18 | <hsivonen> | gsnedders: ah. |
| 10:18 | <hsivonen> | gsnedders: my guesswork is based on rumors about SVG |
| 10:18 | <hsivonen> | which suggests they'd have some more Level 2 stuff in there |
| 10:18 | <gsnedders> | Yeah, I was hearing rumours about that back at TPAC last year for IE9 or IE10 |
| 10:20 | <Rik`> | in one of the video, they're talking about DOM2 and that Acid3 testcases are not a good fit for unit testing |
| 10:20 | <gsnedders> | I guess DOM will happen in IE9, though |
| 10:20 | <gsnedders> | I expect IE9 will probably more lay the groundwork for stuff like SVG in IE10 |
| 10:20 | <gsnedders> | But that's pure blind guesses |
| 10:21 | <Rik`> | Direct2D seems a step in canvas and SVG |
| 10:21 | <gsnedders> | Indeed. A step, not nessisarily all the way in one release. |
| 10:21 | <hsivonen> | I expect Acid3 to become a problem for XML5 eventually |
| 10:22 | <Philip`> | If it's a problem, just release an Acid3.1 |
| 10:23 | <hsivonen> | Philip`: let's hope it works out that way |
| 10:23 | <hsivonen> | Acid2 causes a permanent parsing quirk where otherwise the list of parsing quirks could have been given to zarro |
| 10:27 | <Philip`> | Why doesn't someone fix Acid2, or release Acid2.1? |
| 10:30 | <zcorpan> | the quirk was already interoperably implemented |
| 10:31 | <zcorpan> | i suggested relatively early on to change acid2 and the spec |
| 10:48 | <MikeSmith> | zcorpan: obsolete-attribute error messages now include "Use Foo instead" suggestions |
| 10:49 | <MikeSmith> | can test at qa-dev |
| 10:49 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen: http://whattf.browse.cvsdude.com/syntax/trunk/non-schema/java/src/org/whattf/checker/schematronequiv/Assertions.java?r1=493: |
| 10:49 | <MikeSmith> | oops |
| 10:50 | <MikeSmith> | http://whattf.browse.cvsdude.com/syntax/trunk/non-schema/java/src/org/whattf/checker/schematronequiv/Assertions.java?r1=493&r2=494 |
| 10:51 | <zcorpan> | MikeSmith: cool |
| 10:54 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen: about http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20091118#l-487 |
| 10:54 | <MikeSmith> | <zcorpan_> "Use CSS instead" could be a link to http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Presentational_elements_and_attributes |
| 10:56 | <MikeSmith> | ..I don't see how I could make the current err() do that |
| 10:56 | <MikeSmith> | (that is, include hyperlinks or markup in the message text) |
| 10:58 | jgraham | wonders why public-html-testsuite needs conference calls |
| 11:00 | <zcorpan> | MikeSmith: quotes are replaced with <code> markup at some point |
| 11:02 | <MikeSmith> | huh? |
| 11:02 | <MikeSmith> | which quotes? |
| 11:03 | <zcorpan> | MikeSmith: the parser does something like err("stray tag \u2021foo\u2022.") which is later replaced with "stray tag <code>foo</code>" |
| 11:03 | <MikeSmith> | ah |
| 11:04 | <MikeSmith> | in the text output they remain as quotes |
| 11:05 | <MikeSmith> | but I guess we could add something similar to generate actual hyperlinks |
| 11:05 | <MikeSmith> | anyway, train just arrived at Shinjuku station and I got to drop off |
| 11:05 | <MikeSmith> | back later |
| 11:07 | <zcorpan> | "The archive attribute on the object element is obsolete. Use the data and type attributes to invoke plugins. To set parameters with these names in particular, the param element can be used." - should be rephrased to use singular, since the message is talking about one attribute |
| 11:07 | <Philip`> | jgraham: There have not been conference calls in the past, and there has been no progress in an official HTML WG testsuite |
| 11:07 | <Philip`> | Therefore conference calls might help |
| 11:08 | <jgraham> | Philip`: s/conference calls/email discussion/ and you get the same conclusion |
| 11:09 | <zcorpan> | MikeSmith: 2 messages for <object code> :) |
| 11:09 | <Philip`> | Email discussion might help too |
| 11:09 | <jgraham> | It is hard to imagine that a conference call will encourage people to sink time into writing a testsuite when they can't even be bothered to write an email |
| 11:10 | <gsnedders> | But telecons are just that much more awesome! |
| 11:10 | <zcorpan> | eating ice cream might help too |
| 11:11 | <gsnedders> | Well, that's inevitable. We all know that ice cream is the solution to everything. |
| 11:12 | <gsnedders> | zcorpan: Happy berfday! |
| 11:13 | <zcorpan> | gsnedders: thanks! |
| 11:13 | <zcorpan> | i mean, fanks! |
| 11:13 | <gsnedders> | Ah cannae spill |
| 11:14 | jgraham | tries to resist the temptation to reply proposing monthly ice-cream meetings |
| 11:15 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: Don't resist. Accept the inevitable. |
| 12:37 | <gsnedders> | Anyone able to find the thread from a while ago about treatment of form in table? |
| 12:43 | <hsivonen> | gsnedders: it's in bugzilla |
| 12:43 | <hsivonen> | the W3C bugzilla |
| 12:52 | <Lachy> | hsivonen, wouldn't you expect XML5 parsers to at least set the "bozo bit", and at least let the application know about the error? |
| 12:53 | <hsivonen> | Lachy: In practice I would, but that's not part of the thought experiment here. |
| 12:53 | <Lachy> | ok |
| 13:02 | <hsivonen> | Does HTML5 say which script global object applies if a script has been moved to anther document before the parser runs it? |
| 13:02 | <Philip`> | On the subject of draconian parsing, a lot of RDFa implementations seem to try to parse their input with an XML parser (regardless of content-type etc) and if it fails then they re-parse with a tag-soup parser (html5lib etc) |
| 13:04 | <Philip`> | so they combine the features of: a single error can trigger huge changes in the parsing of the whole document; users are never aware of errors and can't report them to producers; they have all the implementation complexity of both XML and HTML; they conform to neither XML nor HTML; etc |
| 13:06 | <Philip`> | Also fun: Boost now ships with the http://rapidxml.sourceforge.net/ XML parser, which aims for "reasonable W3C compatibility" |
| 13:08 | <hsivonen> | am I just bad at reading the spec or is the spec vague on which script global object to use when the owner document of the script and the document of the creator parser of the script differ? |
| 13:13 | <Philip`> | (Hmm, it doesn't seem to say what "reasonable" exactly means, other than ignoring doctypes (and internal subsets) and "a number of other, minor incompatibilities") |
| 13:13 | <Philip`> | (But it's fast, which is all that matters) |
| 13:14 | <hsivonen> | ignoring the internal subset sure seems reasonable :-) |
| 13:14 | <hsivonen> | ignoring the external subset especially :-) |
| 13:17 | <Philip`> | As far as I can see, it doesn't even check for invalid codepoints |
| 13:38 | <zcorpan> | hsivonen: doesn't the spec have an example of that case in the parser error intro section? |
| 13:39 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: about script global object? I can't locate the example. |
| 13:40 | <hsivonen> | It's unclear to me who Liam is (humorously) implying to be an asshole or a moron |
| 13:41 | <hsivonen> | XML advocates who try to read around the intent of the writers of the spec? |
| 13:42 | <Lachy> | my understanding was that your reading of the spec, or in this case, in what XML advocates have said, with a fine tooth comb, trying to find a loophole that supports XML5, makes you fit into the Asshole category |
| 13:42 | <zcorpan> | hsivonen: "Scripts that modify the page as it is being parsed" |
| 13:43 | <Lachy> | but, regardless of what he meant, it wasn't a productive answer and not worth responding to |
| 13:44 | <hsivonen> | Lachy: well, I was trying to point out that *their* reading, if elaborated on, was of the kind of reading the spec in a way that subverts the intent of the spec |
| 13:45 | <hsivonen> | whoa. that was a bogus sentence |
| 13:45 | <hsivonen> | let's try that again |
| 13:45 | <Lachy> | I understand what you mean |
| 13:45 | <hsivonen> | Lachy: well, I was trying to point out that *their* reading twists the letter of the spec to subvert the intent of the spec |
| 13:48 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: thanks. |
| 13:48 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: that example defies my intuition of script global object |
| 13:50 | <Philip`> | "This proposal would require an XML-conformant application, when confronted with a WF error, to refuse to proceed until a human user had been notified of the error and explicitly authorized error recovery. [...] this proposal did get serious consideration" |
| 13:51 | <Philip`> | Usability engineers would have loved that |
| 13:52 | <Philip`> | I suppose you could make it more user-friendly by popping up a dialog box that just says: "Do you want this web page to work? [Yes] [No]" |
| 13:56 | <hsivonen> | Do you want this browser to work (Don't Work) ((Work)) [x] Remember my decision |
| 13:56 | <Philip`> | That'd be a terrible violation of the spec |
| 13:56 | <Dashiva> | This page requires your permission to work. [Make it work] [Uninstall this impudent browser for daring to accomodate bad markup] |
| 13:58 | <hsivonen> | whee! down the multilingualism rathole we go |
| 13:58 | <hsivonen> | (or rather, the rathole is dealing with it automatically) |
| 13:59 | <Dashiva> | Make sure the dialog box asking "Do you want to display this in <foreign language>" is in that same foreign language |
| 13:59 | <MikeSmith> | krijnh: you around? wanted to ask about logging a new channel |
| 14:02 | <Philip`> | Dashiva: Make the dialog box ask loudly and slowly, like "Do. You. Want. To. ...", and then foreigners will understand it more easily |
| 14:03 | <ttepasse> | hsivonen, would you know why the W3C HTML 5 validator checks differently between validation by uri and by direct input? |
| 14:06 | <MikeSmith> | ttepasse: because there's a bug in it |
| 14:06 | <MikeSmith> | it's a known issue |
| 14:06 | <ttepasse> | Ah, thanks. |
| 14:06 | Philip` | wonders what the difference is |
| 14:07 | <MikeSmith> | the difference is that it runs the input through a perl script before actually passing it on to the v.nu instance |
| 14:08 | <ttepasse> | And validation by uri is the ?correct? variation? |
| 14:11 | <MikeSmith> | ttepasse: dunno.. I guess the way to confirm is to check against the behavior you get with using validator.nu directly |
| 14:12 | <MikeSmith> | or if against http://qa-dev.w3.org:8888 if you want |
| 14:13 | <MikeSmith> | that's an unstable instance that gets updated whenever a change is checked in |
| 14:13 | <ttepasse> | Ok, thanks, I just won an argument. ;) |
| 14:13 | <MikeSmith> | excellent |
| 14:13 | <MikeSmith> | I hope you got a beer or something out of it |
| 14:14 | <ttepasse> | Geographical distance is in the way as usual. |
| 14:14 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: ah. you are back. I had a look at your commit diffs and they looked good. |
| 14:15 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen: OK, thanks |
| 14:16 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen: someday I should actually learn how to program in Java |
| 14:17 | <Dashiva> | I need to learn how to catch jvm crashes |
| 14:17 | Philip` | writes Java primarily using ctrl+space |
| 14:17 | <Dashiva> | I can't seem to find any web tutorials on it |
| 14:17 | <Philip`> | Dashiva: Build a debug version of the JVM then run it in gdb? |
| 14:18 | <Dashiva> | Oh, I don't care about the crash itself |
| 14:18 | <hsivonen> | Philip`: ctrl/command+space is awesome |
| 14:18 | <Dashiva> | But I want to detect that a crash happened and relaunch the app with a compat setting |
| 14:20 | <Philip`> | Oh |
| 14:20 | <Philip`> | Check the exit code? |
| 14:21 | <Dashiva> | That's the concept I'm working on. But then I have to launch a java program from inside another java program, and I don't know if the user running this has the java binary in path or anything... |
| 14:23 | <Philip`> | You could run it always with the compat setting |
| 14:23 | <Philip`> | Or fix the crash bug |
| 14:23 | <Dashiva> | It's a driver bug, so I can't fix it |
| 14:23 | <Philip`> | Can't you work around it? |
| 14:24 | <Dashiva> | That's the compat setting. Makes the app suck, but work at least |
| 14:24 | <MikeSmith> | me wants to find time to try again to make a gcj build of jing plus whattf datatype lib plus whatever other needed v.nu dependencies |
| 14:24 | Philip` | wonders if Java supports fork() |
| 14:24 | <Dashiva> | I don't want the majority of users with good drivers to get a sucky app |
| 14:24 | <Dashiva> | And I can't reliably detect whether the driver is sucky or not |
| 14:25 | <Philip`> | You could get the user to manually restart the application, and if it sees a file indicating it didn't shut down successfully last time then it can give them choice of trying again or running in safe mode |
| 14:25 | <Philip`> | s//a / |
| 14:26 | <Dashiva> | Yeah, that's the current mode of operation. "If the program suddenly disappears, check if there's a HS_ERR_PID file and we'll tell you what to do" |
| 14:26 | <Dashiva> | But if it could be done automatically, I think we'd lose fewer users :) |
| 14:26 | <Philip`> | Do the checking automatically when they start it the next time |
| 14:27 | <Dashiva> | It's actually more complicated, since there are several different driver bugs, each with their own compat setting |
| 14:27 | <Philip`> | Oh, fun |
| 14:27 | <Dashiva> | But yes, I guess some of them could be done auto |
| 14:28 | <Dashiva> | Like setting a flag on startup and clearing it on successful shutdown |
| 14:28 | <hsivonen> | Philip`: as I understand it, pure Java doesn't support true fork on the JVM. You can run other programs, though, which I guess has to be implemented as fork on some level on Unix. |
| 14:28 | <Philip`> | Dashiva: Do you need to be portable across OSes? |
| 14:29 | <Dashiva> | Windows, mac and linux |
| 14:29 | <Dashiva> | We ditched solaris >_> |
| 14:29 | <hsivonen> | yay for Run Anywhere .sh and .bat files for bootstrapping Java |
| 14:30 | <Philip`> | If it was just Windows I guess you could do something like set an unhandled exception filter inside JNI to detect the driver crash and log/report/etc the problem |
| 14:33 | <Dashiva> | I don't suppose there's a simple way to launch apps that are already installed with javaws |
| 14:35 | <Philip`> | You could always rewrite your application in a proper language, like C++ |
| 14:37 | <jgraham> | lisp! |
| 15:04 | <Philip`> | Collada is fun |
| 15:05 | Philip` | wrote a Collada importer which had to explicitly check whether the file came from 3ds Max or XSI, and do slightly different computations and apply slightly different hacks in each case |
| 15:51 | <Philip`> | http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/magazinemonitor/2009/11/your_letters_795.shtml - "I don't get the Monitor either, it's to do with Internet Explorer 8. You have to run it in compatibility view to see everything properly." - hooray for compat view |
| 22:49 | <TabAtkins> | Heck, that's the same reason I started participating in CSSWG, and now I'm an invited expert actively steering things to benefit my group. |
| 22:52 | <foolip> | Sleep for me |
| 23:01 | <Dashiva> | Angry Young Men |
| 23:02 | <Dashiva> | And something about white and not having any american representatives |
| 23:04 | <TabAtkins> | What are you *talking* about, Dashiva |
| 23:05 | <Dashiva> | I was thinking about nicknames for whatwg |
| 23:05 | <TabAtkins> | It still has to have WHAT as an acronym. |
| 23:06 | <Dashiva> | Nickname, not backronym |
| 23:06 | <TabAtkins> | Obviously, you should start it with White. Then presumably Hateful American Terrorists |
| 23:06 | <TabAtkins> | Nicknames aren't fun if they're not backronyms. |
| 23:07 | <Dashiva> | White Hateful Arrogant Terrible Web Guys |
| 23:07 | <Dashiva> | Happy now? |
| 23:07 | <TabAtkins> | Actually, no. Hateful sounds weird. Hate-filled is better. |
| 23:07 | <Dashiva> | How about haughty? |
| 23:07 | <TabAtkins> | And mlw called us American. |
| 23:08 | <Dashiva> | White Haughty Angry Treasonous Web Guys |
| 23:09 | <ttepass-> | s/Angry/Arrogant |
| 23:09 | <TabAtkins> | Haughty *and* Arrogant. Damn. |
| 23:09 | <Dashiva> | H could be Hitler |
| 23:09 | <ttepass-> | Heteronormative. |
| 23:10 | <JonathanNeal> | WhatWG Hates Acronyms, Tropologically With Glee |
| 23:10 | <TabAtkins> | White Hitler-Adulating Terrorist Working Group. |
| 23:10 | <Dashiva> | I'm not budging on Web Guys |
| 23:11 | <TabAtkins> | I like how sad Mat_t always looks when I see his quit message. |
| 23:11 | <Dashiva> | I suppose it's missing something about hating accessibility |
| 23:12 | <TabAtkins> | Whites Hating Accessibility Tools |
| 23:12 | <Dashiva> | No, we hate accessibility itself, not the tools |
| 23:13 | <TabAtkins> | We Hate Accessibility Too |
| 23:14 | <TabAtkins> | I don't understand why this superpreview thing is taking so long to load my website. |
| 23:14 | <Dashiva> | Something like this then (We Hate Accessibility Too) Haughty American Terrible Web Guys |
| 23:15 | <TabAtkins> | (WHAT)HATWG |
| 23:15 | <Dashiva> | The W is a subcronym |
| 23:15 | <TabAtkins> | That's not even a word. |
| 23:16 | <Dashiva> | It is now |
| 23:16 | <TabAtkins> | Okay, granted. |
| 23:23 | <TabAtkins> | Wow, man I was dumb when I wrote this app. Look at all these plaintext passwords. |
| 23:26 | <TabAtkins> | Also: I probably shouldn't offer dates going back to 1950 if I'm storing them a timestamp in an unsigned integer. |
| 23:26 | TabAtkins | boggles that he had enough skill to actually do this project, given the shameful practices on display. |
| 23:26 | <Dashiva> | Standard epoch is for sissies |
| 23:29 | <Philip`> | Wear Hats At The Weekends, Guys |
| 23:31 | <TabAtkins> | That's a backronym I can get behind. |
| 23:32 | <Dashiva> | Wear Hats At The W3C Gatherings |
| 23:32 | <TabAtkins> | I can only hope this spawns a hat craze in the WHATWG. |
| 23:32 | TabAtkins | crosses fingers. |
| 23:52 | <Philip`> | http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2009/11/releasing-chromium-os-open-source.html - wow, it's an Ubuntu with a web browser :-o |
| 23:53 | <JonathanNeal> | sans the Ubuntu |
| 23:54 | <Philip`> | It looks like it still has the Ubuntu |
| 23:55 | <Philip`> | give how e.g. http://sites.google.com/a/chromium.org/dev/chromium-os/building-chromium-os/build-instructions talks about Ubuntu a lot |