| 00:06 | <Dashiva> | Whoa, this XML thread is such a trainwreck |
| 00:06 | <Dashiva> | "You only have to follow the XML spec if you claim to follow the XML spec" |
| 00:06 | <Dashiva> | I realize I'm 3 days late |
| 00:11 | <roc> | they seem to be giving browsers permission to destroy any value in XML |
| 00:11 | <roc> | maybe we should just go ahead |
| 00:18 | <Dashiva> | Pretty much |
| 00:18 | <Dashiva> | Then again, what else would you expect from the One True Scotsman standard |
| 00:53 | <Dashiva> | So now Twitter parses RT... |
| 06:56 | <MikeSmith> | othermaciej: seems like the iframe sandbox patch will land soon |
| 06:57 | <othermaciej> | MikeSmith: cool |
| 06:58 | <MikeSmith> | cool to see rel=noreferrer got into nightlies recently too |
| 07:00 | <MikeSmith> | which reminds me, I think we need to re-start discussion of publishing an Origin header spec through IETF |
| 07:00 | <MikeSmith> | I guess on the http wg mailing list |
| 08:13 | <zcorpan> | hsivonen: it seems v.nu has two bugs with datalist |
| 08:14 | <zcorpan> | hsivonen: one parser bug where "any other end tag" doesn't imply </option> |
| 08:14 | <zcorpan> | hsivonen: and list=foo doesn't work |
| 08:14 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: is that a spec bug also or is the parser out of sync with the spec here? |
| 08:15 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: thanks |
| 08:15 | <zcorpan> | hsivonen: afaict from the spec </option> should be implied |
| 08:16 | <zcorpan> | there's no entry for "datalist" end tag, so it gets handled by "any other end tag" |
| 08:16 | <zcorpan> | whose steps run through once without doing anything but changing "node" to the next in the stack |
| 08:17 | <zcorpan> | and then returns to step 2 which generates implied end tags |
| 08:17 | <hsivonen> | If things go well, I intend to update the parser to spec next week |
| 08:18 | <zcorpan> | cool |
| 08:20 | <zcorpan> | feel free to curse me for the double escape dash dash stuff :) |
| 08:23 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: I intend to implement that last after the other spec changes... |
| 08:24 | <zcorpan> | ok |
| 08:35 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen: I hope the datatype-warning patch I e-mailed you isn't too buffoonish |
| 08:36 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: I'll try to get to it soonish |
| 08:36 | <hsivonen> | (today) |
| 08:36 | <zcorpan> | bugzilla.validator.nu doesn't load for me |
| 08:37 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: weird. it loads for me |
| 08:37 | <MikeSmith> | wmf too |
| 08:38 | <hsivonen> | web-sniffer reaches it, too |
| 08:38 | <zcorpan> | hmm now it works |
| 08:40 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen: about the patch, no rush.. from testing in the messageEmitterAdapter part, I can already see that the patch isn't making isWarning() available (though I don't know why).. and in the mean time, I'm working my way through the messageEmitterAdapter part |
| 08:41 | <zcorpan> | filed a bug |
| 08:43 | <MikeSmith> | ah wait, yeah, I did at least manage to get isWarning() set correctly |
| 08:44 | <MikeSmith> | baby steps |
| 08:47 | <MikeSmith> | someday I will write a book: How to hack Java code even while having serious lack of cluefulness |
| 08:49 | <MikeSmith> | my strategy is basically to turn a bunch of knobs at random until the picture clears up |
| 08:49 | <othermaciej> | MikeSmith: I raised the idea with the IETF of making a working group for HTTP Extensions for the Browsable Web, which could include Cookies, Origin, Strict Transport Security, sniffing, and other things along those lines |
| 08:49 | <MikeSmith> | ah yeah |
| 08:49 | <othermaciej> | MikeSmith: in lieu of a WG for just HTTP State |
| 08:49 | <othermaciej> | MikeSmith: I think I should pursue that further |
| 08:49 | <MikeSmith> | yeah, please to |
| 08:49 | <MikeSmith> | othermaciej: you talked about this with Lisa? |
| 08:50 | <othermaciej> | a little bit, yes |
| 08:50 | <othermaciej> | or rather, I talked to people who talked to her and she sent me mail |
| 08:50 | <zcorpan> | it seems like liam's first goal is already possible and that he's suggesting a purely editorial change to html5 |
| 08:50 | <hsivonen> | is there yet any indication about how Google intends to proceed with SPDY as far as standardization goes? |
| 08:50 | <othermaciej> | I gave higher priority to the getting the Decision Policy done shortly after suggesting the idea |
| 08:51 | <MikeSmith> | othermaciej: yeah, understood |
| 08:51 | <othermaciej> | hsivonen: I think they are interested in having it be a standard once it is fully baked |
| 08:51 | <othermaciej> | hsivonen: some of us from Apple are meeting with the Google folks who worked on it in two weeks |
| 08:51 | <othermaciej> | hsivonen: I sent them some preliminary questions, one was about whether they intended it to be used via https: or a new protocol |
| 08:51 | <othermaciej> | hsivonen: they said https: but I don't think they have worked out how the upgrade would go yet |
| 08:52 | <zcorpan> | as for his second point... it seems like namespace mashups and user-defined namespaces would require writing a namespace definition file, which seems like at least as much overhead as using namespace syntax |
| 08:52 | <hsivonen> | othermaciej: OK. (I expect the IETF WG for it to be "fun".) |
| 08:52 | <othermaciej> | I don't understand what a "namespace mashup" is |
| 08:52 | <othermaciej> | hsivonen: for whatever reason, IETF people seem to respond more positively to SPDY than things like WebSocket protocol... |
| 08:53 | <othermaciej> | hsivonen: I'm a little uncertain about the upgrade story btw because it seems like there's no way to make it work right without losing at least a bit of the performance benefit of using SPDY in the first place... |
| 08:54 | <MikeSmith> | othermaciej: if you follow up with Lisa directly, you maybe also ask/remind her if Alexey Melinkov (the other IETF area director that some of this stuff relates to) should be brought into the loop on the discussion (if he's not been already). and feel free to Cc me too if you want (I talked with Lisa and Alexey both in Hiroshima and have had some e-mail discussion about other stuff after) |
| 08:54 | <othermaciej> | MikeSmith: ok |
| 08:54 | <hsivonen> | othermaciej: odd (about SPDY vs. Web Socket) |
| 09:33 | <krijnh> | MikeSmith: I am now |
| 09:35 | <MikeSmith> | krijnh: can you consider setting up logging for #html-a11y on irc.w3.org? there's no activity there so far, but we will be using it going forward |
| 09:35 | <krijnh> | Sure :) |
| 09:40 | <zcorpan> | Philip`: you forgot about <input type=color value=#c0ee0e> |
| 09:40 | <krijnh> | MikeSmith: logging now, I'll set everything else up later |
| 09:41 | <MikeSmith> | krijnh: cheers -- much appreciated |
| 09:41 | <krijnh> | Np |
| 09:42 | <Philip`> | zcorpan: Oh, I kind of ignored that since it wasn't using colour keywords at all |
| 09:42 | <Philip`> | and also because I forgot :-( |
| 10:25 | <zcorpan> | have microsoft said what from html5 ie9 will support? afaict they didn't mention one thing but still everyone says it'll "support html5" |
| 10:42 | <Philip`> | http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-testsuite/2009Nov/0009.html - hmm, when I first saw that big gap my immediate assumption was that it was an embedded YouTube video and I didn't have Flash enabled |
| 10:42 | <Philip`> | which is probably not a good assumption :-( |
| 10:43 | <zcorpan> | maybe jgraham fell asleep on the enter key |
| 10:49 | <jgraham> | Actually I had something stuck in my spacebar key which is had to hold down space to remove. But thunderbird was "helpfully" in html-compose mode and so collapsed all the spaces into one displayed space |
| 10:49 | <jgraham> | so I didn't realise that all the space characters were there :( |
| 10:51 | <jgraham> | Did the email make any sense apart from the huge gap? |
| 10:53 | <Philip`> | Is the idea to work out which bits of the spec don't have tests yet? Or to work out which tests are made invalid when the spec changes? Or both? |
| 10:54 | <jgraham> | Philip`: Both seem useful |
| 10:56 | <Philip`> | For the latter case, is it not sufficient just to update implementations and see what tests start failing? (and have multiple independent implementations to be more sure neither introduced a bug) |
| 10:56 | <Philip`> | That's basically a way of automating the determination of what tests are affected by spec changes |
| 10:57 | <Philip`> | and seems more practical than automatically determining which tests *might* be affected, and then having a human check every single one of them to see if they really are affected |
| 10:57 | <zcorpan> | if the spec changes and no tests start failing after fixing impl, it's an indication of lack of tests |
| 10:58 | <Philip`> | Indeed |
| 10:59 | <Philip`> | or a bug in the test harness :-) |
| 11:01 | <jgraham> | Right, that is basically what we have done so far |
| 11:02 | <jgraham> | But it is quite hard to be confident that one has updated the implementation correctly if you have a "fix the implementations then fix the test" approach |
| 11:03 | <Philip`> | That's why you have more than one implementation |
| 11:03 | <jgraham> | (and hence hard to be sure that you updated all the relevant tests) |
| 11:04 | <Philip`> | I don't think it's an ideal solution, though |
| 11:04 | <jgraham> | Philip`: Taking it to an extreme, why bother writing tests at all? Why not just fuzz input to different implementations and panic when they disagree |
| 11:04 | <Philip`> | but I'm not sure how it could be made better, and requiring more human effort per test case doesn't seem better |
| 11:05 | <jgraham> | Philip`: Agreed. |
| 11:05 | <Philip`> | jgraham: That's basically what I did with the automatically-generated tokeniser tests - generate a load of inputs, and if html5lib disagreed then I checked its implementation and my implementation to work out which was wrong |
| 11:08 | <Philip`> | (Random inputs would be unlikely to get good coverage of the spec, but I had a systematic way of doing it which seemed to work okay) |
| 11:08 | <zcorpan> | the problem is making sure the coverage of the fuzzer is good enough |
| 11:09 | <jgraham> | I don't think fuzzing HTML is particularly difficult |
| 11:09 | <jgraham> | At least for the tree construction part |
| 11:10 | <jgraham> | Because there are basically a finite number of possible tokens at each point |
| 11:10 | <jgraham> | (that shopuld have observable differences in behaviour) |
| 11:10 | <jgraham> | The only problem is that some states would be quite rare |
| 11:11 | <jgraham> | Like getting exactly <table><colgroup>x |
| 11:12 | <jgraham> | (You could of course base your fuzzer on the spec somewhat so that it picked things that were "more likely" to be interesting given the previous n tokens |
| 11:12 | <jgraham> | i.e. an order n Markov-chain) |
| 11:14 | <Philip`> | My tokeniser thing was based on looking at the spec's transitions for the current state, and then picking a few representative characters for that transition |
| 11:14 | <Philip`> | and then occasionally pruning inputs that lead to the same state |
| 11:14 | <Philip`> | or something like that |
| 11:14 | <Philip`> | so I guess the same idea could work for tree construction, except with tags instead of characters |
| 11:38 | <roc> | zcorpan: I don't recall anything specific so far |
| 11:39 | <hsivonen> | people developing fuzzers for HTML5 parsing may want to coordinate with Jesse Ruderman |
| 11:41 | <gsnedders> | Philip`: But it didn't check stuff like whether all characters in Unicode class White_Space acted as whitespace in tokensization, for example, which is worth checking |
| 11:44 | <jgraham> | hsivonen: Is he doing that in particular |
| 11:44 | <jgraham> | ? |
| 11:44 | <Philip`> | gsnedders: It could be relatively easily extended to do that, I think |
| 11:45 | <Philip`> | It has a function to return interesting strings given a tokeniser transition condition, so it does stuff like "IsConsumedCharacter c -> [ [c]; [c-1]; [c+1] ]" |
| 11:45 | <Philip`> | and it could say if c=0x20 then try some other whitespacey characters too |
| 11:45 | <Philip`> | but that would require a human to think to test that |
| 11:46 | <Philip`> | so it's going to be far from perfect coverage of all possible bugs |
| 11:46 | <hsivonen> | jgraham: I'm not sure if he is doing it actively right now, but at least he was planning to |
| 11:47 | <gsnedders> | Philip`: Equally attribute values starting with other quote chars, etc. |
| 11:48 | <gsnedders> | Philip`: I think given a model of the tokenizer and some human specified things about interesting stuff we can probably get quite a long way |
| 11:49 | gsnedders | started work on DOCTYPE quirks mode tests, but then I realized doubling the number of parser tests just for that might not be overly loved |
| 11:53 | <zcorpan> | roc: hmm? about what? |
| 11:53 | <zcorpan> | oh he disconnected |
| 11:53 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: about IE9 maybe? |
| 11:56 | <zcorpan> | ah |
| 12:59 | <gsnedders> | heh. apparently W3C is at fault according to one comment on the IE9 blog post for never removing obsolete features. |
| 12:59 | <gsnedders> | HTML 4.01 doesn't contain NEXTID or PLAINTEXT! :P |
| 13:02 | <Lachy> | wow, several commenters there think MS should adopt webkit for IE |
| 13:03 | <jcranmer> | I vote no to that opinion |
| 13:03 | <Lachy> | don't they get that reducing competition in the browser market would suck? |
| 13:03 | <gsnedders> | That's not news |
| 13:03 | <gsnedders> | That's been going on since work on IE resumed |
| 13:03 | <Lachy> | I've heard many comments over the years suggesting that they should adopt Gecko. It's interesting that it's now swung over to WebKi |
| 13:03 | <Lachy> | *WebKit |
| 13:04 | <jcranmer> | they would switch, but they need to port webkit to Visual Basic first :-) |
| 13:04 | <Philip`> | Yeah, Microsoft should adopt WebKit and then compete with Apple and Google purely on user interface design |
| 13:04 | <Lachy> | haha |
| 13:04 | <jgraham> | Don't they get that the Microsoft board would sooner eat faeces than let their company adopt ${third party layout engine} |
| 13:05 | <gsnedders> | http://tech.slashdot.org/comments.pl?threshold=2&mode=nested&commentsort=0&op=Change&sid=1450088 |
| 13:05 | <jcranmer> | no, they can beat Chrome on stability |
| 13:44 | <hsivonen> | how many factual errors can you spot in this article? http://www.peachpit.com/articles/article.aspx?p=1409807&seqNum=2 |
| 13:46 | <hsivonen> | "This chapter is from the book |
| 13:46 | <hsivonen> | Designing with Web Standards, 3rd Edition" |
| 13:46 | <hsivonen> | says the page |
| 13:48 | <Dashiva> | "RDF controls, menus, and toolbars" |
| 13:48 | <Dashiva> | What? |
| 13:48 | <jgraham> | wtf is HTML<sub>5</sub> and why did they steal our name? |
| 13:54 | <hsivonen> | jgraham: our name? |
| 13:54 | <Dashiva> | Hixie's name, surely |
| 13:54 | <Philip`> | That could really do with some technical review from someone who actually understands this stuff |
| 13:54 | <gsnedders> | WTF is an RDF control? |
| 13:54 | <gsnedders> | A method of editing triples? |
| 13:55 | <hsivonen> | Philip`: indeed |
| 13:55 | <Dashiva> | Are there any major errors, though? Technicalities aren't so important in a text meant for the uninitiated |
| 13:55 | <Dashiva> | (I didn't read it closely) |
| 13:55 | <jgraham> | hsivonen: Well clearly whatever they are describing there isn't HTML5 |
| 13:55 | <jgraham> | It is this weird HTML<sub>5</sub> thing |
| 13:57 | <jgraham> | Dashiva: Pretty much every verifyable statement in the article seems to be wrong |
| 13:58 | <jgraham> | e.g. Hixie doesn't chair WHATWG or HTMLWG |
| 13:59 | <jgraham> | Some things just make no sense "HTML and XHTML are document languages that contain outline structure but no hint of page structure" |
| 13:59 | <gsnedders> | We have a chair? |
| 14:00 | <Dashiva> | gsnedders: Surely Hixie doesn't sit on the floor when he edits the spec |
| 14:00 | <hsivonen> | Dashiva: my vague recollection is that I've seen Hixie edit the spec sitting on the floor |
| 14:01 | <gsnedders> | Dashiva: I'm of the understanding he normally edits the spec sitting on a sofa |
| 14:01 | <gsnedders> | But yes, I too think I have seen Hixie editing the spec on a floor. |
| 14:02 | <Philip`> | Dashiva: It seems to basically be "Brief history with loads of technical errors. HTML5 has some new structural elements so you don't have to use div. Some comedy based on a technical error. Some more history. IE8's standards mode toggle was controversial but I'm not going to say what the outcome was. Advertisement for WSP and Dreamweaver and Expression. Validation is good." and that's about it |
| 14:03 | <Philip`> | so it doesn't have major errors because it does really make any major points or arguments |
| 14:03 | <Philip`> | s/does/doesn't/ |
| 14:04 | <Philip`> | s/error/misunderstanding/ maybe |
| 14:06 | <Philip`> | I suppose Apple people might be unhappy that it only mentions Mozilla and Opera as the members of WHAT (sic) |
| 14:06 | <Philip`> | and mentions Apple only in the context of being more secretive than Microsoft |
| 14:06 | <gsnedders> | image/svg+xml is never sniffed? |
| 14:07 | <gsnedders> | Yeah, that's true |
| 14:07 | <Philip`> | (So secretive that they hide most of their browser development in plain sight in a public SVN repository) |
| 14:18 | <Philip`> | Also, now that I think about it (which is probably an unwise move), the comedy reference doesn't even make any sense at all |
| 14:18 | <Philip`> | and has no relevance to what it's attempting to have relevance to |
| 14:21 | <Philip`> | http://www.zeldman.com/2009/11/13/mission-of-promo/#comment-49680 - maybe he could get all the other errors fixed too |
| 14:22 | jgraham | wonders if he is the only one who is annoyed by attension-seeking "follow me" links |
| 14:23 | <jgraham> | *attention |
| 14:24 | <TabAtkins> | I sort of hope that's not really an excerpt from Zeldman's book. |
| 14:24 | <hsivonen> | jgraham: formatted for print maybe? |
| 14:24 | <TabAtkins> | But it is. Sigh. |
| 14:24 | <hsivonen> | TabAtkins: me, too, mut the link Philip gave seems to indicate it's genuine |
| 14:26 | <zcorpan> | maybe he should have used mpilgrim's approach and write the book online, so people could point out errors before printing the book |
| 14:26 | Philip` | wonders if anyone is going to bother telling Zeldman |
| 14:26 | <mpilgrim> | i don't think that would have helped |
| 14:27 | <hsivonen> | which reminds me I should report a minor factual error to mpilgrim |
| 14:27 | <hsivonen> | oh. he is here |
| 14:27 | mpilgrim | is listening |
| 14:27 | <hsivonen> | mpilgrim: IIRC, you stated a number for standards-mode doctypes |
| 14:27 | <TabAtkins> | Your book's out, right, mpilgrim? |
| 14:27 | <hsivonen> | mpilgrim: they are infinite |
| 14:28 | <mpilgrim> | tabatkins: it's still a work-in-progress at http://diveintohtml5.org/ |
| 14:28 | <jgraham> | Philip`: You should |
| 14:28 | <mpilgrim> | brought to you by carls jr. |
| 14:28 | <mpilgrim> | hsivonen: really? why? |
| 14:28 | <TabAtkins> | Darn, I wanted to buy it for my sister for Xmas. |
| 14:28 | <zcorpan> | (quirky and almost-quirky doctypes are also infinite) |
| 14:28 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: true |
| 14:28 | <mpilgrim> | no, won't be out on dead trees until feb. at the earliest |
| 14:28 | <TabAtkins> | ;_; |
| 14:28 | <Philip`> | html5.org is a pretty boring page, why should I bother diving into it? |
| 14:28 | <mpilgrim> | i'm told there will be a kindle edition too |
| 14:29 | <mpilgrim> | for maximum irony |
| 14:29 | <hsivonen> | mpilgrim: if the doctype doesn't match the quirky rule or the almost standards rule, the 'anything else' case is standards |
| 14:29 | <mpilgrim> | hey, at least it's not "Dive Into HTML<sub>5</sub>" |
| 14:29 | <Philip`> | (html5.org has awesome subdomains though) |
| 14:29 | <zcorpan> | mpilgrim: <!doctype html public "a"> is standards mode, and you can append anything and any number of characters after "a" and it'll still be standards mode |
| 14:29 | <hsivonen> | and has been even when the quirky list wasn't infinite |
| 14:29 | <mpilgrim> | i did not know that |
| 14:29 | <zcorpan> | except " |
| 14:30 | <mpilgrim> | i'll try to find a clever way of phrasing that |
| 14:30 | <hsivonen> | mpilgrim: of course, authors shoudn't rely on this knowledge |
| 14:30 | <zcorpan> | for quirks mode it's similar; any doctype with a name other than "html" triggers quirks mode |
| 14:30 | <hsivonen> | so it's better to state it so that it isn't factually incorrect but it might be a good idea not to highlight the state of affairs |
| 14:31 | <zcorpan> | and almost standards doctypes can use trailing garbage or any system identifier |
| 14:31 | <mpilgrim> | looks like the point i was trying to make with the numbers was that quirks mode expanded over time |
| 14:31 | <mpilgrim> | so i'll just remove the bit about how many standards mode doctypes there are |
| 14:31 | <mpilgrim> | and call it a day |
| 14:32 | <hsivonen> | sounds like a good fix |
| 14:32 | <TabAtkins> | Tangent: I love stackoverflow and want to have its babies. |
| 14:32 | <mpilgrim> | we need a random doctype generator |
| 14:33 | <zcorpan> | print "<!doctype" + random() + ">" |
| 14:33 | <jgraham> | TabAtkins: If you do that try to keep the children away from the obnoxius advertising that has been the downfall of their father |
| 14:34 | <TabAtkins> | I will endeavor to this end, jgraham. |
| 14:34 | <TabAtkins> | zcorpan: Your random doctypes are dull and boring. |
| 14:35 | <zcorpan> | TabAtkins: why? |
| 14:35 | <TabAtkins> | Who wants a random number in the doctype? They need adventure and excitement! |
| 14:36 | <zcorpan> | maybe random() doesn't return a number but adventure and excitement? |
| 14:37 | <TabAtkins> | I doubt this, unless you have a truly surprising implementation of random(). |
| 14:37 | <Philip`> | print "<!doctype ", (pack L => rand 2**32), ">" |
| 14:38 | <Philip`> | That'll rarely give you numbers |
| 14:39 | <jgraham> | Personally I implement random() as a call to a webservice that buys me a ticket to vegas, whereon I roll a fair die, fly home and enter the result. It has bto be async to keep the UI responsive though |
| 14:39 | <jgraham> | *wherein |
| 14:39 | <TabAtkins> | I'm glad the webservice does the buying. Could get pricey otherwise. |
| 14:40 | <zcorpan> | it sends the bill to TabAtkins |
| 14:40 | <TabAtkins> | DAMMIT |
| 14:40 | <jgraham> | Sure, I use your account details |
| 14:40 | <Philip`> | It's lucky that the ticket is the only possible expense that could conceivably occur while you're in Vegas, otherwise it could indeed get pricey |
| 14:41 | <TabAtkins> | zcorpan: Do you need the "a" in the standards-mode doctype, or will any starting letter suffice? |
| 14:41 | <jgraham> | Huh? I don't gamble, I just think the dice in vegas are more fair |
| 14:41 | <zcorpan> | TabAtkins: could be anything so long as you don't end up with something that triggers quirks mode |
| 14:42 | mpilgrim | finally finished reading that atrocious zeldman/marcotte article |
| 14:42 | <Philip`> | TabAtkins: Make sure you don't put DOCTYPE NETSC inside the aaaaa... string, else IE will go into quirks mode |
| 14:44 | <mpilgrim> | i think zeldman has a different definition of "dead end" than i do |
| 14:44 | <TabAtkins> | http://www.xanthir.com/etc/doctype.php |
| 14:45 | <Philip`> | TabAtkins: Should be "PUBLIC" for XML compatibility, I think |
| 14:45 | <hsivonen> | Philip`: XML compat also requires a system id |
| 14:46 | <Philip`> | Oh, actually it should be "SYSTEM" |
| 14:46 | <TabAtkins> | That'll keep standards? |
| 14:46 | <Philip`> | or what hsivonen said |
| 14:46 | TabAtkins | knows nothing about doctypes. |
| 14:46 | <hsivonen> | TabAtkins: unless your random generator collides with the one magic IBM doctype |
| 14:46 | <hsivonen> | IBM intranet FTW! |
| 14:46 | <TabAtkins> | So <!DOCTYPE html SYSTEM "foo">? |
| 14:46 | <Philip`> | TabAtkins: I think so, since that's what the about:legacy-compat doctype uses |
| 14:47 | <TabAtkins> | kk |
| 14:47 | <TabAtkins> | Done. |
| 14:48 | <zcorpan> | who cares about xml compat |
| 14:48 | <zcorpan> | <!doctype html system "" LOL> |
| 14:48 | <hsivonen> | Philip`, apparently |
| 14:48 | <gsnedders> | zcorpan: That's quirks, no? |
| 14:48 | <zcorpan> | no |
| 14:48 | <gsnedders> | zcorpan: because the correctness flag is false from parser? |
| 14:48 | <TabAtkins> | It's just a good thing I already had a big list of colors and animals. I'm not sure why. |
| 14:49 | <zcorpan> | gsnedders: garbage after system identifier is ignored |
| 14:49 | <gsnedders> | zcorpan: So it seems. Odd. |
| 14:49 | <zcorpan> | firefox compat |
| 14:49 | <Philip`> | zcorpan: Maybe Wikipedia would switch to the PUBLIC "lightgreen-hedgehog" doctype without realising it'll break XML consumers |
| 14:50 | <zcorpan> | (pages have doctypes that end with /> and expect standards mode) |
| 14:50 | <TabAtkins> | I like my "snow-crow" doctype. |
| 14:50 | <zcorpan> | Philip`: indeed, the xhtml 1.0 strict fpi is needed for entities |
| 14:50 | <TabAtkins> | I want to use it from now on. |
| 14:51 | <TabAtkins> | Though, to be consistent, I should probably just grab whatever the doctype of the moment is whenever i create a new page. |
| 14:51 | <zcorpan> | TabAtkins: you might get random 404s from validating xml parsers |
| 14:52 | <TabAtkins> | Good thing I don't care. |
| 14:52 | <TabAtkins> | I already get random 404s from some spider that can't read unicode in urls anyway. |
| 14:52 | <TabAtkins> | And just tosses the characters. |
| 14:52 | <mpilgrim> | also, different definitions of "parent organization," "RDF," "page structure," "tolerance," "clean," "structured," "semantic," "chair," and "comedy" |
| 14:54 | <Philip`> | TabAtkins: You should limit it to combinations that mostly rhyme, like snow-crow and purple-turtle and peru-gnu and, um, salmon-salmon and teal-teal |
| 14:55 | <TabAtkins> | That would be far more work than is worth it. The five minutes I spent assembling it is too much work already. |
| 14:56 | <mpilgrim> | surely there's an RDF-enabled rhyming dictionary somewhere? |
| 14:56 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: /> on doctypes is sad |
| 14:56 | <Philip`> | Finding rhymes is hard :-( |
| 14:56 | <TabAtkins> | mpilgrim: That would also require me to care about RDF. |
| 14:56 | <Philip`> | I'm glad I'm not a poet |
| 14:58 | <Philip`> | magenta-centaur? |
| 14:59 | <TabAtkins> | Are you trying to rhyme, or did you just get that? |
| 15:00 | <TabAtkins> | Because they don't rhyme unless you *really* rhoticize the magenta into magentar. |
| 15:00 | <Philip`> | I'm trying |
| 15:00 | <Philip`> | but it's hard :-( |
| 15:06 | <hsivonen> | it seems a bit sad that there doesn't seem to be all-round agreement that two browsers using sqlite don't constitute two independent interoperable implementations |
| 15:06 | TabAtkins | likes the <small> tag, and is glad it made it in. |
| 15:06 | <TabAtkins> | Are they implementing sqlite interoperably? |
| 15:06 | <hsivonen> | TabAtkins: I don't know. It fails at the "independent" step. |
| 15:06 | <TabAtkins> | … What? |
| 15:07 | <hsivonen> | TabAtkins: If browser S and browser O both use sqlite, the sqlite part is not independently implemented twice. it's implemented only once. |
| 15:07 | <TabAtkins> | That... that doesn't make any sense. |
| 15:08 | <hsivonen> | TabAtkins: how so? |
| 15:08 | <hsivonen> | if the same code is used, it's not independent code |
| 15:08 | <hsivonen> | it's the same code |
| 15:08 | <Philip`> | Presumably two independent browsers running on the same platform would be okay |
| 15:08 | <TabAtkins> | Sure, if you're talking about the sqlite spec. But not if you're talking about some spec that happens to use sqlite (which I assume you were). |
| 15:09 | <Philip`> | even though the platform code is shared |
| 15:09 | <Philip`> | so where is the distinction between platform features and browser features? |
| 15:09 | <hsivonen> | TabAtkins: I'm not talking about a spec called sqlite. I'm talking about a piece of software called sqlite. |
| 15:09 | <Philip`> | s/features/code/g |
| 15:09 | <TabAtkins> | Okay, yes. Two browsers both implementing the same sqlite code do not count as independent implements of sqlite. |
| 15:10 | <TabAtkins> | s/implements/implementations/ |
| 15:10 | <Philip`> | If everyone uses libpng, ddoes that mean there aren't two independent implementations of e.g. toDataURL('image/png')? |
| 15:10 | <hsivonen> | Philip`: yes |
| 15:10 | <Philip`> | s/dd/ |
| 15:10 | <Philip`> | s/$/d\// |
| 15:11 | <hsivonen> | Philip`: are all Web-compatible browsers using libpng and the IJG libjpeg? |
| 15:11 | <Philip`> | Don't know, but it doesn't seem unlikely |
| 15:11 | <hsivonen> | Philip`: at least I don't have data showing that either PNG or JPEG decoding has two independent Web-compatible implementations |
| 15:12 | <Philip`> | hsivonen: Do you consider that to be a problem? |
| 15:12 | <hsivonen> | Philip`: not a severe one |
| 15:13 | <Philip`> | It doesn't stop people writing new browsers, because they can just use libpng |
| 15:13 | <hsivonen> | Philip`: as long as they are willing to call into code written in C |
| 15:13 | <hsivonen> | Philip`: it would suck if one day someone wrote a browser in a memory-safe language and found that there's secret sauce to decoding PNG that isn't in the PNG spec |
| 15:14 | <Philip`> | Should that block specs that depend on PNG from fulfilling their two-interoperable-implementation Rec criteria? |
| 15:14 | <hsivonen> | Philip`: probably not |
| 15:15 | <Philip`> | Should a similar situation with SQLite? |
| 15:16 | <hsivonen> | Philip`: yes, given that sqlite is different from libpng in the sense that it doesn't have a Web-compatible maintenance story |
| 15:16 | Philip` | doesn't think the SQLite thing is good, but isn't sure how to clearly define why it's a problem |
| 15:17 | <hsivonen> | Philip`: also, I tend to see PNG and JPEG more as grandfathered parts of the platform than as something that you can use to reason about independent impls. |
| 15:18 | <hsivonen> | (and maybe MS has independent impls or PNG and JPEG and I'm just unaware) |
| 15:18 | <hsivonen> | (and maybe the pure Java impls of PNG are actually truly interoperable) |
| 15:19 | Philip` | notes that the two APNG implementations are not interoperable |
| 15:19 | <hsivonen> | (also, having read the PNG spec, it seems credible that it actually describes the libpng impl) |
| 15:19 | <hsivonen> | I have more doubts about the spec quality of JFIF |
| 15:20 | <mpilgrim> | Philip`: it's OK to raise our standards over time |
| 15:21 | <mpilgrim> | lots of stuff in the first 20 years of the web was hackish and underdocumented |
| 15:21 | <mpilgrim> | doesn't mean we can't demand more from future standards |
| 15:22 | <mpilgrim> | (for the record, i agree with mozilla's concerns about an underspecified SQL language, but i don't think it'll make a difference in the long run) |
| 15:22 | <hsivonen> | mpilgrim: why no difference in the long run? |
| 15:23 | <mpilgrim> | apple isn't just going to remove their implementation |
| 15:23 | <mpilgrim> | google has publicly committed to implementing it in chrome in 2010 |
| 15:23 | <mpilgrim> | i think market pressure will eventually force mozilla to implement it too |
| 15:24 | <mpilgrim> | but that doesn't make it a good standard, that's just the reality of the marketplace |
| 15:24 | <Philip`> | Are the SQLite developers interested in helping web use? |
| 15:25 | <mpilgrim> | dunno |
| 15:25 | <hsivonen> | on the bright side, SQLite doesn't have a more restrictive license than libpng or libjpeg, so in that sense, they are in the same category |
| 15:26 | <webben> | Are the distinct requirements of use by web browsers - as opposed to other uses - written down somewhere? |
| 15:27 | <hsivonen> | webben: the main difference the Web brings are stricter security requirements and stricter backwards compat requirements |
| 15:28 | <hsivonen> | (assuming that we aren't even talking about whether SQL in general is a bad choice for browsers and CouchDBesque solutions would be better) |
| 15:30 | <webben> | i see |
| 15:33 | <Philip`> | By "SQL in general" do you mean the syntax, or the relational model? |
| 15:34 | <hsivonen> | Philip`: both the relational model and a query language vaguely like the vagueness that is SQL |
| 15:35 | <hsivonen> | at this point, for all practical purposes, the relational model and SQL go hand-in-hand |
| 15:35 | <hsivonen> | doesn't really make sense to have one without the other |
| 15:38 | <hsivonen> | Wow. the P part of DAP is worse than I thought |
| 15:39 | hsivonen | just read http://www.w3.org/mid/7789133a0911191522y510c0e5cubbfa43f7a148943e⊙mgc |
| 15:40 | <Philip`> | hsivonen: Lots of libraries provide the relational model (with selects and joins and columns and keys and indexes and constraints and query optimisers and whatever) without any SQL syntax, hiding it behind things that look like normal programming |
| 15:40 | <Philip`> | e.g. LINQ |
| 15:41 | <hsivonen> | Philip`: good point |
| 15:43 | <Philip`> | A different syntax would likely be more usable and prevent stupid SQL injection bugs and would isolate web content from some of the details of SQL (since every SQL database has quite different syntax for the same concepts) |
| 15:43 | <Philip`> | but would also take effort to design and be harder to learn for people who already know SQL |
| 15:43 | Dashiva | waves to auto_increment |
| 15:44 | <Philip`> | but it seems like it should be part of any discussions about SQLite vs alternatives |
| 15:54 | Philip` | likes streaming HD TV programmes but wishes they didn't turn into awful mush when showing forests or swarms of insects |
| 15:56 | <zcorpan> | http://diveintomark.org/archives/2009/11/18/expense-reports#comments makes me think of http://xkcd.com/386/ |
| 16:17 | <TabAtkins> | Heh. We have amusing quotes so regularly on the whatwg stats page. |
| 16:17 | <gsnedders> | From the wonders of JS in the real world: 'try{ // this is needed for now since the above regexp parsing needs more test verification' |
| 17:02 | <gsnedders> | If there are any masochists who take pleasure from HTML regexps: http://www.mkyong.com/regular-expressions/10-java-regular-expression-examples-you-should-know/ |
| 17:05 | <Dashiva> | Oh joy, yet another broken email regexp |
| 17:06 | <Dashiva> | And a file filter that doesn't support .jpeg files... |
| 20:03 | <incluye> | Which of the new tags are inline by default? |
| 20:03 | <incluye> | Like, <aside> for instancew. |
| 20:03 | <incluye> | *instance. |
| 20:06 | <annevk> | see section 11.2.2 |
| 20:06 | <annevk> | <aside> is block |
| 23:32 | <Philip`> | "Opera [...] keeping the modified testsuite in our local VCS" - I thought your local VCS was CVS, so you couldn't get away from it and save your sanity that easily :-) |
| 23:32 | <jgraham> | Philip`: Not for tests |
| 23:33 | <Philip`> | Oh, okay |
| 23:34 | <jgraham> | Mainly I am just wildly opposed to anything that makes me use CVS ever again |
| 23:34 | <jgraham> | But I think there is also a legitimate reason to prefer hg |
| 23:34 | <Philip`> | I wonder how insane it would be to try to use Hg for dealing with review status |
| 23:35 | <jgraham> | How? |
| 23:35 | jgraham | is much less worried about reviewing tests than merely having tests in the first place |
| 23:36 | <Philip`> | e.g. people submit random tests by publishing a repository, people review and accept tests by pulling them into their own reviewed repository, then someone pulls them into the main official repository at some point |
| 23:36 | <Philip`> | That might be not possible and/or far more effort than is necessary |
| 23:36 | <jgraham> | That sounds quite insane, yes :) |
| 23:37 | <jgraham> | Assuming each tests has a unique id we can have a simple flat file database (or text file or XML document or JSON file or whatever) that adds any metadata to tests |
| 23:37 | <Philip`> | (RDF!) |
| 23:38 | <jgraham> | Sure as long as I don't have to produce or consume it :) |
| 23:39 | <Philip`> | What do you think should be done with tests that are generated (by a possibly complex process) from some source data? Should the source get checked in, or the runnable output, or both, or neither? |
| 23:39 | <jgraham> | Both |
| 23:40 | <jgraham> | like Canvas/testsuite_name/src and Canvas/testsuite_name/tests |
| 23:40 | <Philip`> | I suppose I'm mainly thinking of canvas tests where people should use the YAML/Python to edit tests but don't want to bother if they're just running tests |
| 23:40 | <Philip`> | so that's probably sensible |
| 23:41 | <jgraham> | Yeah I've done similar things |
| 23:41 | <Philip`> | There are bugs in the tests that I haven't fixed for ages because I'm too lazy to run the script and upload the new files again :-( |
| 23:41 | jgraham | should go to sleep now |
| 23:43 | <Philip`> | You should, but will you? |