| 04:48 | <boblet> | can anyone speak to the increased rigor Microdata has over Microformats? /cc @foolip |
| 04:49 | <boblet> | I can describe examples, but don’t know if I can adequately summarise it |
| 04:53 | <boblet> | things like using itemscope & itemprop vs class, defining href/datetime to be content and not text inside element, more explicit separation from content than uF (itemprop vs abbr and class-title patterns)… |
| 05:39 | <Hixie> | boblet: the main "increased rigour" is the same as the difference between html and xml -- you can parse microdata, like you can parse xml, without knowing the vocabulary in use. |
| 06:33 | <boblet> | Hixie: ahah. good I checked |
| 06:33 | <boblet> | and welcome back—how was the ski-ing? |
| 06:34 | <JonathanNeal> | So, HTML5 is moving ahead pretty fast in adoption. |
| 06:34 | <JonathanNeal> | What will happen when everyone starts adopting it when it's supposedly years from being ready. |
| 06:36 | <boblet> | JonathanNeal: why use future tense? I’ve already done 3 or 4 HTML5 sites |
| 06:36 | <boblet> | no universe implosion (… at least, so far) |
| 06:37 | <Hixie> | boblet: not bad, not bad |
| 06:37 | <boblet> | ;-) |
| 06:37 | <Hixie> | JonathanNeal: many parts are ready now, what do you mean? |
| 06:37 | <boblet> | Hixie: plenty to do yet |
| 06:41 | <JonathanNeal> | Opp, was having connection issues with IRC. |
| 06:41 | <boblet> | heh |
| 06:41 | <JonathanNeal> | boblet, yea we're releasing our next version of the portal as HTML5. |
| 06:41 | <JonathanNeal> | And our website is HTML5. |
| 06:42 | <boblet> | well, there you go. |
| 06:43 | <boblet> | nothing happened, right? |
| 06:43 | <JonathanNeal> | Well, I was wondering what impact this has on the draft. |
| 06:43 | <JonathanNeal> | Since before I heard it wouldn't be ready for so long, I mean, is it still in a stage where elements can be added and removed? |
| 06:45 | <boblet> | JonathanNeal: figcaption is the newest element I remember, and that was a month or two ago |
| 06:45 | <boblet> | definitely change is still possible, and we may have to change stuff |
| 06:46 | <boblet> | that’s the early adopter price I guess |
| 06:46 | <boblet> | at the same time your experiences can directly help improve the spec, so that’s a pretty good reward |
| 06:47 | <JonathanNeal> | Yea, I wish I was able to contribute more. |
| 06:47 | <boblet> | heh. every bit counts |
| 06:47 | <JonathanNeal> | But talking with you here, getting your input and implementing HTML5 in our stuff I suppose means something, a lil somethin. |
| 06:48 | <boblet> | real world implementation feedback means a lot I think |
| 06:48 | <JonathanNeal> | The guy or girl who puts together HTML5 Doctor does a pretty good job too, generally in my experience. |
| 06:49 | <boblet> | there’s six authors … at the moment ;-) |
| 06:49 | <boblet> | they’ve also had at least one guest author |
| 06:49 | <JonathanNeal> | The most confusing new elements for me to learn about was section and article. |
| 06:49 | <JonathanNeal> | I was so confused about when the context was right for either one, and I wasn't comfortable putting section outside (around) an article. |
| 06:50 | <boblet> | JonathanNeal: http://oli.jp/2009/html5-structure1/ |
| 06:50 | <JonathanNeal> | Well, there wasn't THAT when I started last summer, there was this room. |
| 06:51 | <boblet> | I wrote that June last year ;-) |
| 06:51 | <JonathanNeal> | Yes, I saw. |
| 06:51 | <boblet> | but IRC is better than an article, so you found the best place |
| 06:52 | <JonathanNeal> | I've been continually taking in input for our master portal layout in the product (I've been keeping a demo @ http://sandbox.thewikies.com/html5-layout/ ) |
| 06:54 | <boblet> | maybe you should write some articles too |
| 07:05 | <JonathanNeal> | With those optional theme changes at the bottom, it's kind of like our csszen type layout. |
| 07:06 | <JonathanNeal> | Everybody does it |
| 07:06 | <JonathanNeal> | but it's fun to do with html5 |
| 08:15 | <JonathanNeal> | So, if I have an article and there's an image associated with the article |
| 08:15 | <JonathanNeal> | with figure / figcaption be appropriate? |
| 09:31 | <gsnedders> | 10.50 RC out now |
| 09:33 | <annevk> | you're faster than Google Reader |
| 09:33 | <annevk> | suspicious o_O |
| 09:35 | <annevk> | meanwhile I ordered a new hard drive |
| 09:35 | <annevk> | it does not seem too hard to install it |
| 09:35 | <gsnedders> | Well, I am in the office, so it's not so surprising I'm quick ;P |
| 09:35 | <annevk> | now I need to buy a writable-CD |
| 09:36 | <annevk> | gsnedders, dah |
| 09:36 | <annevk> | fortunately the current hard drive is not so broken that everything stops working |
| 09:36 | <gsnedders> | When I had HDD throw up loads of SMART warnings, I tried to dd everything off it |
| 09:37 | <gsnedders> | It failed. It starting making clunking sounds and dd gave I/O error. |
| 09:38 | <asmodai> | Be careful though |
| 09:38 | <asmodai> | Seagate apparently does some weird things with SMART that normal SMART tools cannot fully read properly |
| 09:38 | <annevk> | the only potential issue is that the new hard drive is not compatible I suppose |
| 09:38 | <asmodai> | Causing all kinds of false positives (or negatives) |
| 09:38 | <gsnedders> | So just because it seems like it currently works doesn't mean it'll keep working |
| 09:39 | <annevk> | right, I just noticed the corrupt sector count has increased since yesterday |
| 09:39 | <asmodai> | Which brand? |
| 09:39 | <annevk> | hitachi |
| 09:39 | <annevk> | I bought a new one with faster RPM and more space |
| 09:39 | <asmodai> | Ah. Not sure of those, but do they have a tool as well that you can download? Like SeaTools for Seagate disks? |
| 09:40 | <annevk> | why would I need a tool? |
| 09:40 | <asmodai> | That's always a good test to see how badly it is dying, if it is. |
| 09:40 | <hsivonen> | annevk: do you keep using the broken hard drive? |
| 09:40 | <asmodai> | annevk: See point about SMART being misleading above. ;) |
| 09:40 | <annevk> | hsivonen, it's all I have at the moment |
| 09:40 | <hsivonen> | annevk: dangerous activity |
| 09:41 | <annevk> | the palimpsest disc utility tells me to replace it |
| 09:41 | <annevk> | hsivonen, I see |
| 09:41 | <annevk> | guess I better make a backup nowish then |
| 09:43 | <asmodai> | Aye, you should. :) |
| 09:44 | <asmodai> | At least now while you still seem to be able to read data from it. |
| 09:45 | <annevk> | you guys scare me |
| 09:47 | <gsnedders> | Welcome to the world of failing HDs |
| 09:47 | <hsivonen> | I recommend not shutting down the computer and not using it for anything but sending the files over network to another computer |
| 09:48 | <hsivonen> | or over USB to an external hard drive |
| 09:54 | <annevk> | i hope the new drive arrives soon |
| 09:54 | <annevk> | drives were in short supply everywhere, will prolly take a few days... |
| 09:54 | <annevk> | i'll back up stuff, make an iso tomorrow and I guess after that we'll see when it dies |
| 09:55 | <annevk> | hopefully not before all that... |
| 10:11 | <annevk> | i prolly have warranty on this hard drive too I guess |
| 10:11 | <annevk> | oh well, it's only EUR 80 or so |
| 10:12 | <JonathanNeal> | So, if I have an article and there's an image associated with the article would figure and figcaption be appropriate? |
| 10:23 | <annevk> | JonathanNeal, sure |
| 10:26 | <JonathanNeal> | And <summary> is like the heading of <details>, like - <h1> is to <article> as <summary> is to <details> |
| 11:10 | Dashiva | wonders in which language "e.g." implies an exhaustive listing |
| 12:02 | <annevk> | not dead yet |
| 12:02 | <annevk> | and almost fully backed up |
| 12:16 | <annevk> | computer did crash once |
| 12:16 | <annevk> | presumably related to a disk failure |
| 12:16 | <annevk> | so much fun |
| 12:18 | <annevk> | instead of booting from a CD, can you boot from an iso file on an external HD assuming your internal HD is empty? |
| 12:19 | <jgraham> | Presumably that depends on your bios |
| 12:19 | <jgraham> | I would guess no |
| 12:19 | <jgraham> | But only based on pessimism |
| 12:19 | <annevk> | ok, i'll buy some cds |
| 12:19 | <annevk> | and hopefully my hd survives long enough |
| 12:20 | <annevk> | i'm not going to do nothing until i get that cd and new hd though, that'd way boring |
| 12:28 | <Philip`> | annevk: http://www.neowin.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=305843&view=findpost&p=585740612 suggests a way to copy the contents of an ISO onto a hard disk and boot it |
| 12:29 | <Philip`> | though presumably you'd want to set up the boot partition on the external disk too |
| 12:29 | <Philip`> | and getting it to boot from that disk instead of from the first one seems likely to be BIOS-dependant |
| 12:30 | <Philip`> | s/ant/ent/ |
| 12:31 | <Philip`> | (If you have a USB memory stick then it ought to be possible to boot from that, instead of a CD) |
| 12:34 | <annevk> | oh i do |
| 12:34 | <annevk> | that sounds interesting |
| 12:34 | annevk | starts reading https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Installation/FromUSBStick |
| 12:39 | <annevk> | oh lol, you can even run the entire OS from a CD |
| 12:39 | <annevk> | euh, USB |
| 15:37 | <Dashiva> | Hard to understand how Larry can complain about a lack of "transprency in standards" with a straight face |
| 15:37 | <Dashiva> | Context: http://masinter.blogspot.com/2010/02/masinter-and-web-standards-oh-my.html |
| 15:39 | <annevk> | can't find "trans" on that page |
| 15:39 | <annevk> | oh euh |
| 15:39 | <annevk> | nm |
| 15:39 | <Dashiva> | Ignore my typo |
| 15:39 | <Dashiva> | Apparently I can't spell anymore |
| 18:58 | <Bolkonskij> | hi |
| 19:02 | <annevk> | bah, creating an bootable usb stick is failing and also very slow |
| 19:03 | <Bolkonskij> | failing? |
| 19:05 | <annevk> | apparently some checksum is not matching after it wasted about 10 minutes copying some files |
| 19:05 | <annevk> | also formatting the usb drive fails about half of the time |
| 19:05 | annevk | wonders if it's the usb drive |
| 19:32 | <annevk> | it seems I finally succeeded |
| 19:33 | <annevk> | that only took 45min |
| 19:33 | <annevk> | o_O |
| 19:33 | <annevk> | now I need my new HD and it should be all good |
| 20:06 | <AryehGregor> | Is there some official source from Google that says what codecs Chrome supports by default? |
| 20:06 | <AryehGregor> | Or, rather, at all? |
| 20:09 | <AryehGregor> | Chromium too. I think that's "whatever ffmpeg supports, if you compile it right", but I don't have a reliable source. |
| 20:11 | AryehGregor | is editing <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_layout_engines_(HTML5)>;, needless to say |
| 20:28 | <annevk> | afaik it's h.264/theora for chrome and just theora for default chromium |
| 20:28 | <annevk> | not sure where this is documented |
| 20:28 | <AryehGregor> | Yes, but what about other stuff like WAV PCM and AAC? Also, I need an actual source. |
| 20:28 | <AryehGregor> | Some dude already reverted some of my changes, so I need to actually substantiate them. |
| 20:54 | <othermaciej> | AryehGregor: I bet if you ask on #chromium someone can help you |
| 21:15 | <AryehGregor> | othermaciej, I did, but didn't get a reliable source. I went with a link to source code, but not sure if the other guy will think that's acceptable . . . it doesn't really meet Wikipedia guidelines. |
| 21:16 | <AryehGregor> | Of course, the rest of the article is largely unsourced, so big deal. |
| 21:16 | <othermaciej> | what could be more reliable than the source code? |
| 21:16 | <othermaciej> | are you looking for an official policy statement from Google? |
| 21:17 | <AryehGregor> | Source code is reliable, but it can't reasonably be interpreted without programming knowledge *and* quite a bit of tinkering. |
| 21:18 | <othermaciej> | AryehGregor: I think Chrome also supports MPEG AAC audio, from looking at that source code |
| 21:18 | <Philip`> | You could write a blog post summarising the source, and then link to that |
| 21:18 | <AryehGregor> | I wouldn't mind if it were a blog post by a Chrome developer, or even a blog comment, just something that has a clear statement and is at least vaguely authoritative. |
| 21:18 | <othermaciej> | AryehGregor: (as does Safari) |
| 21:18 | <othermaciej> | AryehGregor: there was a post about their plans on the WHATWG list, but it might not have enough detail |
| 21:18 | <AryehGregor> | Philip`, I'm certainly not reliable as a source here, I don't have any actual knowledge. |
| 21:18 | <AryehGregor> | Hmm, do you remember when that was or what it was called or whatever? Or have a link? |
| 21:19 | <othermaciej> | this article says Chrome will support H.264 video, AAC audio, and Ogg Theora and Vorbis: http://news.cnet.com/8301-17939_109-10250958-2.html |
| 21:19 | <AryehGregor> | Thanks. |
| 21:19 | <othermaciej> | quoting a Google speaker |
| 21:20 | <othermaciej> | it does not cite MP3, but from the source that does appear to be supported as well |
| 21:20 | <AryehGregor> | Chromium is actually more important to me, because he put "Yes" for H.264/MP3 for WebKit, and I changed it to "Depends" because Chromium doesn't support those by default. |
| 21:20 | <AryehGregor> | (although in practice it usually will if it's a distro Linux package using system libraries, and non-Linux users are unlikely to use Chromium) |
| 21:21 | <othermaciej> | AryehGregor: besides Chromium there are also the Gtk and Qt ports of WebKit which also depend on how the relevant media framework is configured |
| 21:21 | <othermaciej> | the Gtk port supports whatever GStreamer supports |
| 21:22 | <roc> | AryehGregor: do Linux distros generally package H.264? Fedora 11, at least, did not |
| 21:22 | <AryehGregor> | Do you have a quotable source for that? I could give a link to the IRC logs, but that would probably be considered unreliable. :) |
| 21:22 | <othermaciej> | AryehGregor: I don't know if I have a source other than source code, but I can try googling |
| 21:23 | <othermaciej> | http://www.linux.org/news/2007/12/17/0001.html |
| 21:23 | <AryehGregor> | roc, the Ubuntu Chromium package lets you install it either with or without non-free codecs. I suspect that typically the non-free codecs would be installed, since they're needed to play lots of content users would be likely to have. |
| 21:23 | <othermaciej> | I guess this would be the better reference: http://arstechnica.com/open-source/news/2007/12/html5-video-support-in-gtkwebkit.ars |
| 21:23 | <AryehGregor> | othermaciej, thanks. I'll see what the guy says. |
| 21:25 | <roc> | AryehGregor: I don't know how that works, since AFAIK Canonical doesn't have a license to distribute H.264 |
| 21:26 | <roc> | codec |
| 21:26 | <AryehGregor> | roc, I think it's some dodgy thing where it's not installed by default, and you have to click through some dialog saying you have the right to use the codec -- e.g., live in a country where it's not patented. (I'm sure it's not patented in, say, Iran.) |
| 21:27 | <AryehGregor> | I don't know how they get away with it. |
| 21:27 | <AryehGregor> | Maybe they do have some kind of license for some of the key codecs. IIRC, Dell licenses them for its Ubuntu computers. |
| 21:28 | <roc> | now I get to rant about how MPEG-LA selective enforcement conspires with well-meaning free software advocates promoting "legal workarounds" to hopelessly confuse the situation and reduce the chance we'll get a truly free solution |
| 21:29 | <AryehGregor> | Chromium is only in PPAs in current versions, and this page makes it seem like the chromium-codecs-ffmpeg* packages aren't yet available in Lucid: http://packages.ubuntu.com/lucid/chromium-browser |
| 21:30 | <AryehGregor> | So as far as Chromium specifically goes, Canonical might not officially know about what codecs are available. |
| 21:30 | <AryehGregor> | I do know that I can play patented formats in Totem and so on, and I don't think I ever did anything except maybe click through some dialog very early on. |
| 21:31 | <AryehGregor> | Fabien Tassin is the Chromium PPA maintainer, you could ask him. He's on freenode right now with the nick fta. |