| 01:36 | <MikeSmith> | othermaciej: for some reason, on my system, no progress messages seem to get written to the console during the process of updating to a new nightly build |
| 01:36 | <MikeSmith> | or maybe I'm looking in the wrong place |
| 01:37 | <MikeSmith> | but I just updated to the latest nightly and when I go to check All Message in Console.app, I see just one Safari/WebKit-related message there: 10/03/12 10:37:32 Safari[43511] WebKit r55834 initialized. |
| 01:39 | <othermaciej> | MikeSmith: I know nothing about the nightly update mechanism since I always just build my own |
| 01:39 | <MikeSmith> | ah yeah |
| 01:41 | <MikeSmith> | well, I just mentioned it because bdash suggested checking the console messages as a way of troubleshooting any install problems.. I guess I'll ping him on IRC when he's around again and ask him if I need to switch on verbosity somewhere or something |
| 01:42 | <MikeSmith> | othermaciej: anyway, about doing the regular checks/reports on resolution status, etc., of HTML WG bugs, I definitely want to help out with that |
| 01:43 | <MikeSmith> | and with anything else we can think of that would help with getting issues resolved, and help with getting us closer to being ready for LC |
| 01:48 | <MikeSmith> | I'll start doing the 2nd thing you mentioned |
| 01:48 | <MikeSmith> | http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/html-wg/20100311#l-88 |
| 01:48 | <MikeSmith> | "someone should be checking bugs in RESOLVED state to make sure they contain the required info (the Editor's Response, a link to the spec diff if there was actually a spec change, a rationale that is actually some sort of meaningful rationale" |
| 01:50 | <othermaciej> | MikeSmith: great - I'm going to mass-move the bugs that predate the policy info VERIFIED tomorrow, and the rest can be done at any time, no set schedule |
| 01:50 | <MikeSmith> | OK |
| 01:51 | <MikeSmith> | It will help in general if we had some direct SQL query access to the bugzilla DB |
| 01:51 | <MikeSmith> | maybe I can get that |
| 01:52 | <MikeSmith> | but rather than checking it manually, I'm hoping there is maybe a way that I can write a script to generate report" is something that of course needs to be checked by a human |
| 01:53 | <MikeSmith> | but having the Editor's Decision comments in some kind of easy-to-scan report form would make that much easier |
| 01:54 | <othermaciej> | a script would be great |
| 01:54 | <othermaciej> | there's actually a couple of scripts we could use: |
| 01:54 | <othermaciej> | - Script to compile Editor's Resolution and spec diff link for bugs in RESOLVED (for verification) |
| 01:54 | <othermaciej> | (Hixie uses a consistent format so it shouldn't be too hard) |
| 01:56 | <othermaciej> | - Script to count bugs that are still not in a terminal state (anything but CLOSED or VERIFIED+NoReply) |
| 01:57 | <othermaciej> | - Script to generate a Disposition of Comments based on bugs that *are* in a terminal state (we'll need this for getting out of Last Call) |
| 02:01 | <MikeSmith> | the last one we are absolutely going to need eventually, one way or the other |
| 02:02 | <MikeSmith> | the other two I can definitely work on trying to get set up |
| 02:02 | <MikeSmith> | I vaguely remember asking the systems team some time ago about if there were a way I could get SQL access to the bugzilla DB |
| 02:03 | <MikeSmith> | but I can remember if the answer was a definition No, or just a "No, we'd rather you didn't do that, so we're not going to let you" No |
| 02:09 | <MikeSmith> | .me notices new Audits tab in WebKit |
| 02:09 | <MikeSmith> | including "Remove unused CSS rules" |
| 02:09 | <MikeSmith> | this is nice |
| 02:10 | <MikeSmith> | it would also be nice to have as an online checker somewhere |
| 02:10 | <MikeSmith> | or maybe it already is |
| 02:11 | <MikeSmith> | wow, I guess the Audits tab has been in there for a while.. Not sure how I missed it |
| 02:12 | <MikeSmith> | I think the name "Audits" scared me off |
| 02:12 | <MikeSmith> | if is said something more like "Optimize" that would be a lot more attractive |
| 02:18 | <othermaciej> | that's a good idea |
| 02:19 | <othermaciej> | "Audits" sounds like it will poke in your financial records |
| 02:19 | <MikeSmith> | yeah |
| 02:53 | <MikeSmith> | http://googlewebmastercentral.blogspot.com/2010/03/microdata-support-for-rich-snippets.html |
| 02:53 | <MikeSmith> | wow, the news was posted on March 9? |
| 02:54 | <MikeSmith> | anyway, so much for the argument about Microdata not having any implementation support |
| 02:56 | <othermaciej> | hey neat |
| 03:04 | <Hixie> | anyone know if the changes discussed for the File API are going to make it? |
| 03:05 | <Hixie> | in particular, moving .type to Blob and renaming .urn to .URL? |
| 03:11 | <Hixie> | othermaciej: how do you think i should address the use case of allowing a canvas to be uploaded to a server? |
| 03:13 | <othermaciej> | Hixie: you mean other than the possibilities of uploading a data: URL or uploading the ImageData in a way you serialize yourself? |
| 03:14 | <othermaciej> | Hixie: I am going to try to get binary data on the agenda for the TC-39 meeting at Apple later this month, if they can be brought to actually care about the issue, then I'd recommend that |
| 03:15 | <Hixie> | k, i'll delay a bit longer then |
| 03:15 | <Hixie> | failing that i'll just provide a toBlob() to match toDataURL() |
| 03:16 | <othermaciej> | Hixie: I'm not super enthusiastic about the idea of using a File or Blob because it seems broken to me to use an interface that's intended for async-only access to persistently stored data for this use case |
| 03:16 | <othermaciej> | Hixie: but it may be better than nothing |
| 03:16 | <Hixie> | yeah that's more or less my position |
| 05:20 | <paradisaeidae_> | I am attempting to factor in a number of html5 elements to a page. When I have a number of javascripts, gifs, svg and xhtml:body sections, then a page can reach 500k. |
| 05:20 | <paradisaeidae_> | This is the sort of size similar functionality is delivered by flash. |
| 05:20 | <paradisaeidae_> | Though there is a presentation hint possible with flash. |
| 05:20 | <paradisaeidae_> | The '...loading...' message. |
| 05:20 | <paradisaeidae_> | Is there a function in html5 spec which does anything similar? |
| 07:01 | <annevk> | Google supports Microdata per @diveintomark |
| 07:01 | <annevk> | http://googlewebmastercentral.blogspot.com/2010/03/microdata-support-for-rich-snippets.html |
| 07:44 | <annevk> | oh hey, the IETF is having discussion on whether text/plain is still a suitable format on http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ietf/current/maillist.html |
| 07:44 | <annevk> | funny |
| 07:48 | <hsivonen> | hah. framing the discussion as PS/PDF vs. plain text as opposed to HTML vs plain text |
| 07:49 | <annevk> | yeah, I've no idea how you can even start with suggesting PDF |
| 07:49 | <annevk> | something must be seriously wrong in the workflow of that guy |
| 07:51 | <hsivonen> | and then the thread turn to .epub |
| 07:51 | <hsivonen> | wow |
| 07:52 | <annevk> | oh, I didn't get that far |
| 07:52 | annevk | goes back reading |
| 07:52 | <annevk> | oh, that's actually early on, I skipped a few fun emails it seems |
| 07:53 | hsivonen | wonders ow many messages it takes for someone to remind the others that this Web thing happened while they weren't paying attention |
| 07:56 | <hsivonen> | the credit goes to Julian: http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ietf/current/msg60576.html |
| 07:58 | <zcorpan> | i wonder why people refer to plain text as "ASCII" |
| 07:59 | <hsivonen> | RFC plain text is ASCII, but yeah, it's interesting that moving to UTF-8 plain text wasn't proposed |
| 08:00 | <annevk> | Japanese guy freaked out over moving away from ASCII: http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ietf/current/msg60589.html |
| 08:00 | <annevk> | the interwebs is full of fascinating plot twists |
| 08:00 | <hsivonen> | oh, it's mentioned later in the thread |
| 08:01 | <annevk> | as far as I can tell Julian and Tim are the only sane voices in that discussion |
| 08:01 | <annevk> | way to go IETF... |
| 08:04 | <MikeSmith> | they are right that all the fancy graphics just detract from the essentials of the gaming experience |
| 08:05 | <MikeSmith> | the best games are just plain text, like the original Star Trek |
| 08:06 | <annevk> | yeah |
| 08:06 | <annevk> | http://xkcd.com/91/ |
| 08:06 | <MikeSmith> | heh |
| 08:07 | <MikeSmith> | "you don't need any extra junkware to be able to read the RFCs" |
| 08:07 | <MikeSmith> | they should put that the RFC boilerplate |
| 08:08 | <MikeSmith> | in bold type |
| 08:08 | <MikeSmith> | and/or italiced |
| 08:08 | <MikeSmith> | and in red |
| 08:08 | <annevk> | but they can't |
| 08:08 | <annevk> | that's not ASCII o_O |
| 08:08 | <MikeSmith> | oh damn |
| 08:09 | <MikeSmith> | I was going to say that they could make it hyperlink to a detailed explanation |
| 08:09 | <hsivonen> | You can read PDFs using less if you are cool enough. I have. |
| 08:10 | <hsivonen> | (be sure not the have flate streams in there, though, unless you can run deflate mentally) |
| 08:10 | <zcorpan> | hsivonen is cool |
| 08:11 | <MikeSmith> | you can read a lot of stuff using strings(1) |
| 08:11 | <MikeSmith> | with implied quotes in there somewhere |
| 08:11 | <MikeSmith> | maybe around the word read |
| 08:12 | <zcorpan> | i read PNGs by reading the PNG spec and then opening in a hex editor |
| 08:12 | <MikeSmith> | zcorpan: I think they like the word ASCII because is more l33t |
| 08:13 | <MikeSmith> | welcome to our hackers club. we do everything in ASCII. if you dont like it, get out of the computer room and go eat lunch in the cafeteria or somewhere instead |
| 08:14 | <annevk> | that hackers club must have some kind of millennium bug... |
| 08:16 | <MikeSmith> | they accidentally creating a worm hole with their mad hacking skillz and they are stuck in it |
| 08:16 | <MikeSmith> | and happy to be stuck in it |
| 08:20 | <zcorpan> | is google's impl of microdata conforming? |
| 08:22 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: dunno, but anyone wnting to use Google's impl for Microdata advocacy should find out. |
| 08:39 | <Lachy> | where is Google's implementation of Microdata? Have they released the source, or just incorported it into their search engine somehow? |
| 08:40 | <annevk> | hsivonen, that's not how advocacy for RDFa worked... |
| 08:40 | <annevk> | or works, haven't followed it recently |
| 09:06 | annevk | wonders how long we'll have to wait before the lawyers at Google have sorted out VP8 |
| 09:26 | <hsivonen> | annevk: This is Microdata advocacy's chance to hold the moral high ground compared to RDFa advocacy. |
| 09:27 | <othermaciej> | so I just noticed that it's effectively impossible to google for the phrase, "5 > 2" |
| 09:27 | <othermaciej> | that's kinda sad |
| 09:28 | <annevk> | hopefully it's a high priority bug |
| 09:28 | <othermaciej> | it should be! |
| 09:28 | <othermaciej> | (it's unbingable as well) |
| 09:29 | <annevk> | the other day I saw some people theorizing over what it might mean |
| 09:29 | <annevk> | apparently it was in a Google I/O presentation but not clarified; they thought it had something to do with Web 2.0 |
| 09:30 | <othermaciej> | heh |
| 09:30 | <othermaciej> | was it in there as an inside joke or did they expect people to get the reference? |
| 09:31 | <zcorpan> | http://www.google.com/codesearch?hl=en&lr=&q=%5Cb5%5C+%3E%5C+2%5Cb&sbtn=Search |
| 09:31 | <annevk> | probably an inside joke; it has been an inside joke from the moment you made that t-shirt I think |
| 09:31 | <MikeSmith> | http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/wiki/RDFa-DOM-API |
| 09:31 | <annevk> | we should make some new t-shirts |
| 09:31 | <othermaciej> | it's been an inside joke since before I made the t-shirt |
| 09:31 | <othermaciej> | 5 > 2 is no longer an interesting statement |
| 09:32 | <othermaciej> | sadly 5 > f is not true (at least in hexadecimal) |
| 09:32 | <annevk> | <i> ♥ <html> is one I suggested for #fronteers once |
| 09:32 | Philip` | would hypothesise that Google uses the same 'HTML' parser for Microdata as for RDFa, i.e. one that's more like an error-correcting XML parser, so it'll handle things like "<p whatever>...<p whatever>" as if they were nested |
| 09:32 | <annevk> | or s/<html>/HTML5/ |
| 09:32 | <zcorpan> | 1.0 > 5 |
| 09:33 | <othermaciej> | so here's one thing I don't get about people making RDF APIs |
| 09:33 | <othermaciej> | why is the interface always a flat list of triples? |
| 09:33 | <othermaciej> | I thought the whole point of RDF was that it has a graph structure, and the interesting thing to do is to traverse or make queries against the graph |
| 09:34 | <othermaciej> | if you completely drop the graph structure, what's the point? |
| 09:34 | <othermaciej> | it would be like having a DOM API where the only way to traverse nodes was as a flat list of all the nodes in the document |
| 09:35 | <othermaciej> | that's cute |
| 09:35 | <othermaciej> | too bad HTML5 has no version indicator so you can't do it in the syntax |
| 09:35 | <othermaciej> | finally, a critical use case for a version indicator! |
| 09:35 | <annevk> | <i> ♥ <!doctype html> says enough |
| 09:36 | <annevk> | now we need some designer to make it look pretty :) |
| 09:37 | <othermaciej> | tragically monospace fonts don't seem to have a decent-looking solid heart glyph (at least not the ones on my machine) |
| 09:37 | <othermaciej> | I am amused that Mark Pilgrim still uses 5>2 as his twitter icon |
| 09:38 | <othermaciej> | I wonder how many of his followers get the reference |
| 09:38 | <zcorpan> | http://creatr.cc/creatr/logo/i%20hearts%20doctype%20html.png?1268387003 |
| 09:38 | <hsivonen> | Is http://www.amazon.com/HTML5-Up-Running-Mark-Pilgrim/dp/0596806027/ref=pd_sim_b_1 the same content as Dive into HTML5? |
| 09:38 | <zcorpan> | hsivonen: yes |
| 09:39 | <othermaciej> | whoah there's a surprising number of HTML5 books now |
| 09:40 | <MikeSmith> | othermaciej: really? |
| 09:40 | <othermaciej> | well, maybe I am naiive to be surprised |
| 09:41 | <MikeSmith> | I didn't know any printed HTML5 books had been published yet other than the ones that got published here in Japan |
| 09:41 | <annevk> | if you search on Amazon you can see there's quite a few coming up |
| 09:41 | <MikeSmith> | I see now |
| 09:42 | <annevk> | most by people I don't know, which is encouraging |
| 09:42 | <hsivonen> | http://www.amazon.com/dp/0321719913 by tantek |
| 09:42 | <MikeSmith> | the book equivalent of vaporware, except I guess for Mark's, which is online already |
| 09:42 | <MikeSmith> | *content of which is already online |
| 09:42 | zcorpan | notes that his video article is under BSD so someone could rip it off and use it in a book (assuming i understand the license correctly) |
| 09:42 | <hsivonen> | http://www.amazon.com/Introducing-HTML5-Voices-That-Matter/dp/0321687299/ref=pd_sim_sbs_b_2 brucel&remysharp |
| 09:44 | zcorpan | also notes that he is happy to review books on html5, for anyone writing such books |
| 09:44 | <MikeSmith> | me sees franksalim as co-author on another of those books |
| 09:44 | <hsivonen> | I've volunteered to make some simple cross-browser <video> boilerplate and I can't decide if I should have unscripted Cortado fallback with the user of the cookbook having to put the video size and URL in multiple places or if I should have scripted fallback that copies the URL and size from the video element |
| 09:45 | <MikeSmith> | I want a T-shirt that symbolizes the statement, "Using HTML or PDF for RFCs is about the same as moving from English language RFCs to mandarin language RFCs" |
| 09:45 | <MikeSmith> | I think maybe the symbol of caveman hitting himself in the head with a brick might symbolize that sentiment pretty well |
| 09:45 | <othermaciej> | not sure if it can be expressed as a t-shirt slogan |
| 09:46 | <zcorpan> | hsivonen: i think scripted easy-to-use are more successful |
| 09:48 | <othermaciej> | MikeSmith: the idea that HTML is seen as some mysterious foreign thing is kind of mind-boggling |
| 09:48 | <zcorpan> | hsivonen: does cortado support autoplay and different preload strategies? |
| 09:48 | <othermaciej> | is there really anyone with a computing environment that can't handle HTML at *least* as well as plain text? |
| 09:49 | <vininim> | hm, what's the best of way of inserting a <nav> block into the <body> tree of a page using external html? |
| 09:49 | <Philip`> | My mail clients can't |
| 09:49 | <MikeSmith> | othermaciej: I think the Martin Rex guy must be a sockpuppet attempt to make the RFCs-in-ASCII argument look as absurd as possible |
| 09:50 | <othermaciej> | my favorite part is when people linked the HTML versions of RFCs to demonstrate the awesomeness of plain text |
| 09:50 | <zcorpan> | vininim: external html? |
| 09:50 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: wow. I missed the "mandarin" argument when I first skimmed the thread |
| 09:50 | <Dashiva> | "Stone tablets were good enough for my ancestors, we don't need no stinking HTML specs" |
| 09:51 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: I don't remember what tunable Cortado has |
| 09:51 | <zcorpan> | is there an iPad in stone? |
| 09:52 | Philip` | notes that http://tools.ietf.org/rfc/rfc303.txt is still non-ASCII |
| 09:52 | <hsivonen> | Dashiva: stone tables have a proven archival track record |
| 09:52 | <Dashiva> | iPads are the devil's attempt at stone tablets |
| 09:52 | <vininim> | zcorpan: suppose I have a nav.html, boilerplater html and a nav block, and I want to insert this nav block on other pages. |
| 09:53 | <othermaciej> | Philip`: what is non-ASCII about it? |
| 09:53 | <zcorpan> | vininim: use server-side include |
| 09:53 | <Philip`> | othermaciej: The é |
| 09:54 | <vininim> | was going to use that as last resort, javascripting seems more fun! |
| 09:54 | <webben> | vininim: Less robust. |
| 09:55 | <zcorpan> | vininim: google won't be able to navigate your site if you include the nav with js |
| 09:55 | <zcorpan> | vininim: not to mention users that don't have js enabled |
| 09:56 | <webben> | or anyone in an untested browser where your JS happens to fail. |
| 09:56 | <MikeSmith> | Henrik Levkowetz deserves some serious props for setting up and maintaining the tools.ietf.org HTML stuff |
| 09:57 | <annevk> | why CSSImportRule has .media and .href is beyond me |
| 09:57 | <annevk> | grmbl |
| 09:57 | <othermaciej> | annevk: maybe the next t-shirt should be like a che guevara t-shirt but with Hixie instead |
| 09:57 | <othermaciej> | or would that bee too much out of MLW's playbook? |
| 09:57 | <annevk> | heh |
| 09:57 | <hsivonen> | do I need to turn of JavaScript to read the page Roy linked to without registering with Day Software? |
| 09:58 | <annevk> | what link? |
| 09:58 | <hsivonen> | http://dev.day.com/docs/en/cq/current/administering/multi_site_manager.html |
| 09:59 | <othermaciej> | hsivonen: that seems to show up ok for me without registering |
| 09:59 | <hsivonen> | hmm. appartly, the box can be dismissed by logging in with empty credentials |
| 09:59 | <hsivonen> | *apparently |
| 09:59 | <zcorpan> | Philip`: was my suggested grep completely broken? |
| 10:00 | <othermaciej> | hsivonen: oh interesting - I only got the annoyance box the second time I visited the page |
| 10:00 | <Philip`> | zcorpan: Don't know - I haven't got around to looking at it |
| 10:00 | <Philip`> | though I haven't completely forgotten it yet |
| 10:00 | <zcorpan> | ok |
| 10:02 | <MikeSmith> | othermaciej: MLW is way ahead of you, as usual |
| 10:02 | <hsivonen> | (I would recommend avoiding putting people engaged in violent activities on t-shirts that are supposed to convey a positive marketing message) |
| 10:02 | <MikeSmith> | he's already got a great T-shirt design - http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_27WEu4KHCYU/S5oK11NyJQI/AAAAAAAAAT0/nxCrMZB8sjw/s1600-h/microdata.gif |
| 10:03 | <othermaciej> | MikeSmith: not as iconic as Che, but sure, Microdata is Communism, I think that's obvious to anyone |
| 10:03 | <annevk> | I get a register overlay on that day.com site |
| 10:03 | <MikeSmith> | maybe MLW is Dick Cheney's daughter Liz |
| 10:04 | <annevk> | ctrl+w |
| 10:04 | <othermaciej> | in that case we should remake the Obama "Hope" poster |
| 10:04 | <zcorpan> | othermaciej: Che? |
| 10:04 | <othermaciej> | to signal our solidarity with the worker |
| 10:05 | <othermaciej> | zcorpan: this gentleman, who is a popular staple of hipster t-shirts: http://www.radiofuturamusic.com/v2/images/categories/TshirtCheRed.jpg |
| 10:05 | <othermaciej> | (probably most people wearing him on a shirt have no idea that he killed huge numbers of people) |
| 10:06 | <zcorpan> | ah |
| 10:06 | <annevk> | the onion variant is sort of funny, though not as good as their other t-shirts: http://hideyourarms.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/437.jpg |
| 10:07 | <othermaciej> | heh, yeah |
| 10:07 | <Dashiva> | othermaciej: They were probably bad people anyway |
| 10:10 | <MikeSmith> | I think what we really need is some kind of image that is iconic but that won't offend anybody; for example, an image of Jesus on the cross, with text underneath saying, "Jesus died for your XHTML sins." |
| 10:12 | <MikeSmith> | http://www.flickr.com/photos/mrlastweek/3730602918/ would make a great actual T-shirt |
| 10:12 | <MikeSmith> | I say we just go with that |
| 10:12 | <othermaciej> | how about a picture of Muhammad with HTML tags in his turban? |
| 10:12 | <MikeSmith> | now you're thinking |
| 10:12 | <MikeSmith> | some excellent brainstorming we go going here |
| 10:12 | Philip` | likes the http://myserendipityblog.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/in-the-loop-0051.jpg version of the Hope poster |
| 10:13 | <Dashiva> | MikeSmith: Replace his face with someone else? |
| 10:13 | <MikeSmith> | Dashiva: <img hidden> |
| 10:13 | <MikeSmith> | Hixie looks like Sabretooth in that flickr T-shirt |
| 10:14 | <MikeSmith> | the brothers Wolverine, Sabretooth, Hixie |
| 10:14 | <Dashiva> | "XHTML2 died for your well-formedness errors" |
| 10:14 | <MikeSmith> | Dashiva: sublime |
| 10:15 | <MikeSmith> | hey maybe #whatwg should be the "non-X-Men" |
| 10:15 | <MikeSmith> | put a Magneto helmet on Hixie |
| 10:16 | <Dashiva> | Fighting Professor XHTML? :P |
| 10:16 | <othermaciej> | the Brotherhood of Markup Mutants? |
| 10:17 | <Dashiva> | Mutant Markup is sort of appropriate |
| 10:17 | <Dashiva> | All kinds of random errors, but some thrive and others fail to parse properly |
| 10:17 | <Dashiva> | Together, they drive the browser conformance criteria forward |
| 10:21 | <zcorpan> | Markup Mutant Ninja Microdata |
| 10:33 | <asmodai> | Mmm, interesting post by Roland Steiner on the ruby subject @wwwint |
| 10:34 | <jgraham> | zcorpan: I now have the theme tune fron Teenage Mutant Hero Turtles in my head, damn you |
| 10:34 | <workmad3> | 'heros in a half-shell, TURTLE POWER!' |
| 10:34 | <workmad3> | or was it hard shell? |
| 10:34 | <workmad3> | been too long :) |
| 10:35 | <workmad3> | 'Thundercats are on the move, Thundercats are loose' |
| 10:35 | <zcorpan> | jgraham: now i know what to use as my ring tone |
| 10:35 | <annevk> | Lord of Markup |
| 10:35 | <asmodai> | workmad3: half shell I think |
| 10:35 | <asmodai> | jgraham: You must be British btw |
| 10:35 | <asmodai> | jgraham: Since only the UK did the Ninja -> Hero conversion for what I remember :) |
| 10:35 | <annevk> | http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-international/2010JanMar/0143.html |
| 10:36 | <jgraham> | zcorpan: Only if you want your phone brutally bludgeoned |
| 10:36 | <jgraham> | asmodai: Indeed |
| 10:36 | <workmad3> | asmodai: I think it was actually the cartoon / film difference |
| 10:36 | <asmodai> | annevk: Ah yes, apologies for not providing a link. |
| 10:36 | <workmad3> | cartoon = hero turtles, films = ninja turtles |
| 10:36 | <jgraham> | workmad3: I'm pretty sure the cartoon was Ninja in the US and Hero in the UK |
| 10:36 | <jgraham> | (I have no idea why) |
| 10:36 | <workmad3> | ah :) |
| 10:37 | <workmad3> | spotty recollections of my youth :) |
| 10:37 | <asmodai> | The Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles (or simply Ninja Turtles, and previously known in the United Kingdom, Germany, Austria, Ireland and Scandinavia as Teenage Mutant Hero Turtles) |
| 10:37 | <asmodai> | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teenage_Mutant_Ninja_Turtles#Teenage_Mutant_Hero_Turtles |
| 10:37 | <asmodai> | Anyway |
| 10:37 | <workmad3> | (and besides, I didn't care what it was called in the states when I was 10 :P ) |
| 10:37 | <asmodai> | annevk: how far off is that vertical text implementation for most UAs? |
| 10:37 | <othermaciej> | apparently the word "Ninja" was too violent for the UK (which strikes me as hella weird) |
| 10:38 | <asmodai> | annevk: I am not even sure if the HTML5 spec touches that, does it? |
| 10:39 | <workmad3> | all this discussion leads to one important question though... who was your favourite hero/ninja turtle? :) |
| 10:39 | <annevk> | asmodai, far and not it doesn't (it shouldn't either) |
| 10:39 | <annevk> | s/not/no/ |
| 10:39 | <annevk> | well, IE has support |
| 10:40 | <annevk> | it's clear to me people are actually waiting for vertical text support |
| 10:40 | <asmodai> | annevk: It would make some things easier, yes. :) |
| 10:40 | <jgraham> | workmad3: No it doesn't, it leads to the question if WHATWG/HTMLWG members were turtles, who would be April O'Neill |
| 10:40 | <annevk> | if we ever do it there would be a large amount of bugs and it would be vastly undertested :/ |
| 10:40 | <annevk> | it's not clear to me, damn it |
| 10:40 | <workmad3> | jgraham: that's also an important one, along with who would be shredder? :) |
| 10:40 | <asmodai> | Especially if you consider the case of Mongolian and traditional writing of Japanese and/or Chinese and such languages. |
| 10:40 | annevk | blames the keyboard |
| 10:41 | <annevk> | asmodai, but Japanese Web designers have not really been asking for it |
| 10:41 | <annevk> | so far it's just the print industry |
| 10:41 | <asmodai> | annevk: True. |
| 10:41 | <annevk> | and I don't really care about print |
| 10:41 | <asmodai> | annevk: Awww, why not? |
| 10:42 | <annevk> | because printing of the Web is dying |
| 10:42 | asmodai | is a dying breed. :( |
| 10:43 | <annevk> | it's also wasteful imo |
| 10:43 | <annevk> | mind you, howcome strongly disagrees with me |
| 10:43 | <workmad3> | well, when you need a couple dozen rainforests to print out the entire thing, it's not hard to see why :P |
| 10:43 | <asmodai> | I hate reading on-screen. |
| 10:43 | <asmodai> | Especially since the DPI is still lagging far behind printed materials. |
| 10:43 | <othermaciej> | printing is obsolete |
| 10:44 | <daedb> | http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2002/7/1/ |
| 11:25 | <Lachy> | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=saqO_ZqX6uY |
| 11:53 | <zcorpan> | wonder why http://www.whatwg.org/issues/data.html doesn't work in opera |
| 11:53 | <zcorpan> | only shows the yellow bars and the text for me |
| 11:57 | <Philip`> | zcorpan: Looks like just the averages lines are missing for me |
| 11:58 | <Philip`> | which is probably http://philip.html5.org/tests/canvas/suite/tests/results.html#2d.path.lineTo.ensuresubpath.2 |
| 11:59 | <zcorpan> | all lines are missing for me, but my build might be a bit old |
| 12:00 | <zcorpan> | Hixie: the graph looks a lot better if the months are abbreviated to three-letter labels |
| 12:00 | <Philip`> | or maybe it's not |
| 12:01 | <Philip`> | Oh, yes, it is that |
| 12:01 | <Philip`> | Opera foolishly implemented what the spec said, then the spec changed so now Opera is broken |
| 12:02 | <Philip`> | (Adding some moveTo()s at the beginning of the line-drawing functions fixes it in Opera) |
| 12:03 | <Philip`> | When I said "averages lines" I actually meant "averages lines and also the lines which they are averages of" |
| 13:44 | <zcorpan> | <[a-zA-Z][^>]*=\s*(("[^"]*)|('[^']*)|([^"']*))&(AElig|AMP|Aacute|Acirc|Agrave|Aring|Atilde|Auml|COPY|Ccedil|ETH|Eacute|Ecirc|Egrave|Euml|GT|Iacute|Icirc|Igrave|Iuml|LT|Ntilde|Oacute|Ocirc|Ograve|Oslash|Otilde|Ouml|QUOT|REG|THORN|Uacute|Ucirc|Ugrave|Uuml|Yacute|aacute|acirc|acute|aelig|agrave|amp|aring|atilde|auml|brvbar|ccedil|cedil|cent|copy|curren|deg|divide|eacute|ecirc|egrave|eth|euml|frac12|frac14|frac34|gt|iacute|i |
| 13:44 | <zcorpan> | uml|laquo|lt|macr|micro|middot|nbsp|not|ntilde|oacute|ocirc|ograve|ordf|ordm|oslash|otilde|ouml|para|plusmn|pound|quot|raquo|reg|sect|shy|sup1|sup2|sup3|szlig|thorn|times|uacute|ucirc|ugrave|uml|uuml|yacute|yen|yuml)[^;a-zA-Z0-9] |
| 13:45 | <zcorpan> | Philip`: the above should find no-semicolon entities in attribute value that's not followed by a-zA-Z0-9 |
| 13:45 | <zcorpan> | Philip`: could you run a grep for that? :) |
| 14:57 | <Philip`> | zcorpan: Remind me in several hours :-) |
| 15:05 | <zcorpan> | Philip`: i might not be around then |
| 15:06 | Philip` | will try to remember it himself |
| 15:23 | <hsivonen> | has Hixie's Live Dom Viewer changed recently to push the content to the parser differently and less often? |
| 15:50 | <Dashiva> | ASCII not what the spec can do for you, ask what you can do for the spec |
| 15:57 | <annevk> | the Live DOM Viewer is buggy in Chrome |
| 15:57 | <annevk> | especially the w() function does not seem to execute instantly like I expect and like it does in other browsers |
| 15:57 | <annevk> | Hixie, ^^ |
| 16:00 | <Dashiva> | So the main arguments for the RFC format seems to be "works for my 30-year old printer" and "it's eco-friendly" |
| 16:00 | <Dashiva> | Surely this is the perfect organization to lead us into the future |
| 16:12 | <jgraham> | Dashiva: You seem to be concentrating on the logical arguments. The _main_ argument seems to be "get off my lawn" |
| 16:14 | <Dashiva> | Good thing there's nobody around to blow up the ascii for names thing as racism and western imperialism |
| 16:16 | <jgraham> | I feel I should insert some sort of qualifier before "logical". Like "almost, but not" |
| 16:19 | <ment> | from my programmer POV, ASCII manuals and references are much more convenient than PDFs |
| 16:20 | <Dashiva> | That's a false dilemma |
| 16:21 | <Dashiva> | (ASCII is a charset, not a file format) |
| 16:21 | <ment> | erm, plain text |
| 16:22 | <ment> | i thought you were arguing about format rather than charset |
| 16:22 | <Dashiva> | Both, really |
| 16:23 | <ment> | well, with utf-8 i can get my cp437 box characters back |
| 16:23 | <jgraham> | And with HTML I can have hyperlinks |
| 16:24 | <jgraham> | Seriously I don't know why PDF is even being discussed |
| 16:24 | <jgraham> | The question should be phrased as "why aren't RFCs being published as (utf-8) HTML" |
| 16:25 | <Dashiva> | Because that won't print on my 30-years old printer using tools made before HTML came into being |
| 16:26 | <jgraham> | To which the correct response is "so?" |
| 16:27 | <Dashiva> | "Take your technical arguments elsewhere, whippersnapper" |
| 16:29 | <jgraham> | Anyway plain text RFCs are inconvenient too transcribe by hand-of-monk with illuminated letters since the number of characters per line is highly variable in that case, and the hardcoded headers and page breaks confuse the monks no end |
| 16:29 | <jgraham> | s/too/to/ |
| 16:30 | <Dashiva> | hand-of-monk is obsolete since RFC 1217 |
| 16:31 | <ment> | (replaced by hand-of-monkey) |
| 16:50 | <Philip`> | If you allow people to write specs in HTML, soon they'll be using SVG graphics and embedding JavaScript in every page |
| 16:51 | <Philip`> | and there would be no end to the madness |
| 16:54 | <Philip`> | Also, you can bet a lot of people would write their HTML-formatted specs in Microsoft Word |
| 16:55 | <annevk> | yeah, because that is exactly what happened at the W3C |
| 16:56 | <jgraham> | Gosh, if only technology had advanced to the level where we could automatically check a file against a set of rules before publication. Then one could enforce whatever rules one pleased and avoid that whole issue |
| 16:57 | <jgraham> | It's sad that no one has managed to develop such a system |
| 16:59 | <annevk> | governments would pay millions |
| 17:29 | <AryehGregor> | Ah, so Google spiders finally support microdata. |
| 17:33 | <Philip`> | Presumably with bugs, though |
| 17:33 | <boblet> | Philip`: maybe Microdata is so simple they don’t have any bugs? |
| 17:34 | <boblet> | ;) |
| 17:39 | <Dashiva> | Philip`: I thought you would have a test case showing the bugs by now |
| 17:48 | <Philip`> | Dashiva: I didn't really care enough |
| 17:48 | <Philip`> | but things like http://www.google.com/webmasters/tools/richsnippets?url=http%3A%2F%2Fphilip.html5.org%2Fdemos%2Fmicrodata%2Fsibling-p.html are obvious bugs |
| 17:48 | <Dashiva> | So your bias is coming through :P |
| 17:48 | <Philip`> | (The same bugs affect the RDFa parsing) |
| 17:48 | <Philip`> | (because it's not using anything like an HTML parser when parsing the HTML) |
| 17:49 | <AryehGregor> | Interesting. |
| 17:49 | <Dashiva> | Well, that's equal opportunity at least |
| 17:49 | <AryehGregor> | Hixie had sort of vaguely hinted at some point that Google might possibly be using an HTML5 parser for some things internally. |
| 17:49 | <Philip`> | Clearly this isn't one of those things |
| 17:50 | <Dashiva> | This isn't a HTMLx parser for any value of x |
| 17:50 | <Philip`> | It seemed kind of like XML5 minus the complex bits (doctypes etc) when I last looked |
| 17:50 | <AryehGregor> | There's no such thing as an HTMLx parser for x < 5, at least if we're confining our discussion to real life. |
| 17:51 | <Dashiva> | Philip`: And minus the well-formedness? |
| 17:51 | <annevk> | I thought Ian once said they use some kind of graph representation |
| 17:51 | <Philip`> | AryehGregor: There are parsers which attempt to be compatible with the syntax defined by HTMLx for x < 5, and they'll all handle <p>foo<p>bar correctly since that's a basic part of HTML syntax |
| 17:52 | <Philip`> | Dashiva: I thought XML5 didn't do well-formedness |
| 17:52 | <Dashiva> | I thought it did, but with relaxed constraints |
| 17:52 | <AryehGregor> | Google doesn't handle <p>foo<p>bar properly? o_O |
| 17:52 | <Dashiva> | Not in their snippets tool |
| 17:52 | <Philip`> | I assume they use a different parser for serious things like search indexing |
| 17:53 | <Philip`> | annevk: I vaguely remember him just saying they parse into some kind of internal representation that isn't RDF |
| 17:54 | <Philip`> | (Presumably they use the same one for RDFa and microdata and microformats, so just the parser is changed) |
| 17:55 | <annevk> | Philip`, I meant for HTML in general |
| 17:55 | <annevk> | Philip`, not this stuff |
| 17:55 | <annevk> | Philip`, because they want streaming and do not want to modify a tree |
| 17:56 | <annevk> | Philip`, but do want to recognize the effects of <i><b>test</i>test</b> |
| 17:58 | <Philip`> | Oh |
| 17:58 | Philip` | is unaware of that |
| 19:02 | <annevk> | MikeSmithXX, I forwarded someone in your direction regarding HTML5; she wanted to chat to some other people involved |
| 19:22 | <franksalim> | MikeSmithXX, I see that book, too :-) |
| 20:09 | <zcorpan> | Philip`: reminder :) |
| 20:39 | hsivonen | notes that Google's link to "Official microdata specification" points to whatwg.org--not w3.org |
| 20:49 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: why doesn't http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#current-document-readiness have the uninitialized and interactive states? |
| 22:03 | <asmodai> | heh, sweet http://desandro.com/articles/opera-logo-css/ |
| 22:34 | <annevk> | now all that's left between me and baked cookies is the HTTP WG |
| 22:36 | <jgraham> | annevk: Presumably he might poison the cookies to reduce dissent |
| 23:13 | zcorpan | finds http://www.robodesign.ro/mihai/blog/html5-demo-video-and-canvas |
| 23:16 | <annevk> | "I could move only a really small part of the code into a worker, and the performance penalty of sending the pixels in a message from the main thread to the worker thread is too significant. In the end, it runs quite slower than the script which does not use any web worker." seems relevant |
| 23:17 | <ap> | annevk: worked better for http://nerget.com/rayjs-mt/rayjs.html |
