| 00:25 | <KaOSoFt> | JonathanNeal- Yes, yes, yes! |
| 00:26 | <KaOSoFt> | Well, I used to go to sleep at 1 AM or 2 AM, but since a month ago I started a routine in which I went to sleep early (9 PM, 10 PM) and woke up early as well (5 AM, 6AM). |
| 00:27 | <KaOSoFt> | It's tough in the beginning, but after a while you get used to it. |
| 00:27 | <JonathanNeal> | Well ... there you go. |
| 00:27 | <KaOSoFt> | There is one flaw, though: you get sleepy earlier. I NEVER got sleepier with my old schedule. |
| 00:28 | <KaOSoFt> | Arggh, I don't have IE here. Let me check a server. |
| 00:28 | <KaOSoFt> | >_> |
| 00:30 | <KaOSoFt> | Shim? 0_o |
| 00:31 | <JonathanNeal> | Verified, IE6, 7, 8 |
| 00:33 | <KaOSoFt> | Black borders, white filled, right? |
| 00:34 | <KaOSoFt> | Hmm... let me check on Firefox, because Chrome doesn't have Page preview. |
| 00:36 | <KaOSoFt> | It works on Internet Explorer 7. |
| 00:37 | <KaOSoFt> | Now I'm checking ieHTML5.js |
| 00:38 | <KaOSoFt> | It replaces block elements with <div>, and in-line with <span>, right? |
| 00:39 | <KaOSoFt> | I'm a novice for everything Web related, besides browsing. |
| 00:39 | <KaOSoFt> | ._. |
| 00:39 | <JonathanNeal> | Yes, please do not blog this until it's had a chance |
| 00:40 | <JonathanNeal> | to get bug tested by TabAtkins, ben alman, paul irish, and some of the other guys I trust. |
| 00:40 | <KaOSoFt> | Yeah, I'm going to keep testing it at home anyways. |
| 00:40 | <JonathanNeal> | Okay :) thanks |
| 00:41 | <KaOSoFt> | I haven't fully set up my blogging environment anyways. |
| 00:41 | <KaOSoFt> | I'm still deciding which template to use. |
| 00:42 | <KaOSoFt> | At least until I've fully coded an HTML5 template. |
| 00:45 | <KaOSoFt> | JonathanNeal- You had done research on it before, or you just started when I brought the topic up? |
| 00:46 | <JonathanNeal> | Haha, well actually it was because you were talking about it. |
| 00:47 | <JonathanNeal> | Or whoever brought it up in here or the other room. |
| 00:47 | <KaOSoFt> | Well, I guess (looking at the code) it was simple logic, after all. |
| 00:49 | <KaOSoFt> | I mean, the implementation method was the "hard?" thing. |
| 00:49 | <JonathanNeal> | No, it was just a matter of someone doing it. |
| 00:49 | <KaOSoFt> | Yeah, well, that. :P |
| 00:50 | <JonathanNeal> | Until I heard the fuss today, I didn't think it was a big deal (maybe it isn't) but at least it's fixed now. |
| 00:50 | <KaOSoFt> | By the way, what does "/*@cc_on!@*/" mean? I've seen it on HTML5Shiv as well. |
| 00:50 | <JonathanNeal> | Google it! It's an IE proprietary thing, and I'm using it to keep other browsers from doing anything unnecessary. |
| 00:51 | <KaOSoFt> | Ugh, IE, as always. |
| 00:53 | <KaOSoFt> | So, IE reads JavaScript even for Page previewing, or your code did something to the DOM? |
| 00:53 | <KaOSoFt> | This is me trying to look like I know "something". |
| 00:54 | <KaOSoFt> | Oh, you're improving the example. |
| 00:54 | <KaOSoFt> | You're TEH man. |
| 00:54 | <TabAtkins> | Ok, interesting. Not so much a fix as a workaround, but sure. |
| 00:55 | <Hixie> | ok updated my -88 change proposal and sent a new one |
| 00:56 | <JonathanNeal> | It doesn't fix the bug, but it fixes the problem. |
| 00:56 | <gsnedders> | Damned books that end on lame cliffhangers that make me want to get the next book |
| 00:57 | <gsnedders> | (and are generally shit) |
| 00:57 | <TabAtkins> | Solution: stop reading shit books |
| 00:58 | <gsnedders> | But I want to know what happens! |
| 00:58 | <daedb_> | Which book? |
| 00:58 | <gsnedders> | daedb_: I'm sorry, but I don't want to embarrass myself that much |
| 00:59 | <daedb_> | It can't be that bad :) |
| 00:59 | <gsnedders> | Oh yes it can. |
| 01:00 | <gsnedders> | I mean, I may be willing to admit I think Twilight (at least the first book) is awesome, but to drop this low? |
| 01:01 | <gsnedders> | Also: there aren't enough books remaining to buy to be able to get them for three for two. |
| 01:01 | <gsnedders> | And I don't want to buy them full price. |
| 01:01 | <gsnedders> | They're too shit for that. |
| 01:06 | daedb_ | was not aware that there's something more embarrasing on the internet than Twilight... |
| 01:06 | <gsnedders> | Oh, really, there is. |
| 01:06 | <gsnedders> | Imagine Twilight without the only good bit. |
| 01:07 | <gsnedders> | (I guess the fact I'm implying the very existance of a good bit of Twilight implies I'm a teenage girl) |
| 01:07 | <daedb_> | To be fair, I know just about nothing about Twilight except that it has vampires and everyone (on the internet at least) seems to hate it |
| 01:07 | <gsnedders> | (Oh well. All the teenage girls I hung around with the entire time at school concluded I was a teenage girl.) |
| 01:11 | <gsnedders> | (Those same girls may have something to do with the fact I read Twilight. It may have taken them around three years to bully me into it, though.) |
| 01:13 | gsnedders | heads off, after having embarrassed himself on the intarwebs |
| 01:30 | <estellevw> | "I just fixed the #html5 printing bug in #IE - woohoo!" - yay! |
| 01:31 | <estellevw> | oops, was quoting. I didn't solve it. jonathan neal did |
| 01:31 | <gsnedders> | https://lists.webkit.org/pipermail/webkit-dev/2010-April/012235.html |
| 01:31 | <estellevw> | anyone have an url? |
| 01:33 | <TabAtkins> | gsnedders: Yeah, that causes some grumbling over here. "Hey, we like that multiprocess idea you guys have so much, we decided to do it completely differently!" ^_^ |
| 01:34 | <TabAtkins> | estellevw: JonathanNeal is still doing testing/tweaking, so he's not releasing it publicly quite yet. We'll let you know. ^_^ |
| 01:34 | <estellevw> | i wanted to retweet, but figured it would be more interesting with a link. |
| 01:35 | <gsnedders> | TabAtkins: Having an API designed for it, and to be totally non-blocking, seems better than the current state of Chrom(e|ium) |
| 01:35 | <estellevw> | TabAtkins: congrats on the Google gig by the way. how was your first (second) week? |
| 01:35 | <TabAtkins> | I have no opinion on the technical merits of either approach. Just commenting. |
| 01:36 | <gsnedders> | Yeah, I can't imagine is being brilliant ;P |
| 01:36 | <TabAtkins> | estellevw: Doing good! It's nice to have the freedom to do just spec work without stealing time from my "real" job. |
| 01:36 | gsnedders | needs to work out whether he'll have a job in September |
| 01:37 | <gsnedders> | Just, like, minor decision in life |
| 01:37 | <Dashiva> | Are you becoming a redundancy? |
| 01:37 | <TabAtkins> | gsnedders: Come to America and we'll land you a job with one of us stateside browsers. |
| 01:37 | <gsnedders> | No, just a question of whether I go to uni or not. |
| 01:37 | <gsnedders> | TabAtkins: heh |
| 01:38 | <Dashiva> | I'm sure he has a non-compete clause |
| 01:39 | <gsnedders> | Some of my colleagues seem me to want to stay and not go to uni for fear of me doing not returning and going to a competitor |
| 01:39 | <gsnedders> | TabAtkins: Equally, none of them would hire me without a degree |
| 01:40 | Dashiva | might be to blame there |
| 01:40 | <TabAtkins> | gsnedders: You think my degree had a thing to do with me getting my job? |
| 01:40 | <TabAtkins> | Answer: no. |
| 01:41 | <gsnedders> | TabAtkins: In general it seems a requirement, but one that actually is just expected as a baseline and otherwise ignored |
| 01:41 | <TabAtkins> | In general, yes. In specific, once you get past the non-engineers doing recruiting, you're golden. |
| 01:42 | <KaOSoFt> | I wish I'd have your chance. |
| 01:43 | <KaOSoFt> | I've been in the same spot for two years now, and I think I deserve better. |
| 01:43 | <gsnedders> | Like, I'm nowhere near even meeting the requirements for an internship at Google |
| 01:43 | <KaOSoFt> | </hater> |
| 01:44 | <KaOSoFt> | I went back to finish my degree only because I saw engineers earning a whole lot more than I do, and in the end (and by my boss orders), it was me who did the job. :'( |
| 01:45 | <KaOSoFt> | Once I get my degree, I'll start sending curriculums everywhere if I don't get promoted here. |
| 01:50 | <KaOSoFt> | Time to leave (work). Goodnight. |
| 02:05 | <JonathanNeal> | Back home! |
| 03:49 | <boblet> | hey all. anyone know of any spec repos that accept patches as a way of filing bugs? I found http://github.com/html5/spec but looks like Manu isn’t auto-updating it |
| 07:02 | <JonathanNeal> | TabAtkins, TabAtkins_, you around? |
| 07:15 | <JonathanNeal> | Hey all. |
| 07:44 | estellevw | hears crickets chirping |
| 07:45 | <othermaciej> | hi! |
| 07:50 | <JonathanNeal> | haha |
| 07:50 | <JonathanNeal> | Boy, I was hoping we could coordinate testing for this html5 print thing. |
| 08:25 | <estellevw> | i can help you test |
| 08:25 | <estellevw> | i am on XP on VMWare with Real IE8 and faux IE6 |
| 09:16 | <JonathanNeal> | estellevw, you still available? |
| 09:16 | <JonathanNeal> | I was working on a new version. |
| 09:28 | <zcorpan> | http://forums.whatwg.org/viewtopic.php?t=4271 - any cache manifest people here? |
| 09:33 | <annevk> | the reason is for debugging |
| 09:33 | <annevk> | you need to add the online whitelist flag |
| 09:33 | <annevk> | if you want it to work |
| 09:34 | <nessy> | Hixie: around? |
| 09:35 | <Hixie> | nessy: vaguely |
| 09:35 | <nessy> | I just submitted my first bug and wanted to know if that's the right form: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=9452 |
| 09:36 | <nessy> | if you don't have time to look, that's ok, too |
| 09:37 | <Hixie> | looks fine to me |
| 09:37 | <nessy> | ok, thanks |
| 09:37 | <nessy> | I'll do at least one more :) |
| 09:37 | <othermaciej> | hey nessy |
| 09:37 | <nessy> | hey othermaciej :) |
| 09:37 | <Hixie> | nessy: thank _you_! :-) |
| 09:37 | <nessy> | finally getting to it! |
| 09:38 | <nessy> | pleasure :) |
| 09:38 | <othermaciej> | woot, multitrack API |
| 09:38 | <nessy> | the recent a11y TF F2F was most interesting - and actually somewhat productive |
| 09:39 | <othermaciej> | yeah? |
| 09:39 | <othermaciej> | MikeSmith sent me some notes, but I don't know the details |
| 09:39 | <nessy> | need to work over the caption proposal a bit before submitting, but I'm also planning to get that into the bug tracker today |
| 09:40 | <nessy> | well, the biggest issue that held back the two existing proposals were really the SMIL people's objections |
| 09:40 | <nessy> | but we managed to explain that their objections are not really with our proposals, but with the lack of SMIL functionality in HTML5 |
| 09:40 | <othermaciej> | are you going to submit these as change proposals to the WG as well or just as bugs? |
| 09:40 | <othermaciej> | that's good |
| 09:40 | <nessy> | which for the state of media in HTML5 is a fair state IMO |
| 09:41 | <nessy> | well, Mike told me to submit bugs |
| 09:41 | <othermaciej> | Multitrack API seems particularly unrelated to SMIL |
| 09:41 | <nessy> | they are essentially change proposals, so now I don't know if I should also submit change proposals and how to do so |
| 09:41 | <nessy> | indeed! |
| 09:41 | <othermaciej> | to submit a Change Proposal you just need to send mail to public-html with the contents or a link to it |
| 09:42 | <nessy> | I think I will do that, too |
| 09:42 | <nessy> | probably even to WHATWG |
| 09:42 | <nessy> | the more eyes are aware of it and look at it, the better |
| 09:42 | <othermaciej> | definitely |
| 09:43 | <othermaciej> | I'm sure there are potential refinements in both cases |
| 09:43 | <othermaciej> | I am glad it is moving forward |
| 09:44 | <nessy> | so am I - it was really hard to do without stepping on people's toes |
| 09:45 | <boblet> | Validator.nu text field input + validate just reloads homepage. just me or known issue? |
| 09:45 | <nessy> | but I was very surprised about the lack of technical understanding of the HTML5 media elements with some folks - that was really the core learning of the F2F |
| 09:46 | <nessy> | it's probably natural not to be experts across everything |
| 09:46 | <othermaciej> | nessy: what were some of the misunderstandings? |
| 09:46 | <nessy> | still - that lack of understanding held back progress, which is what really surprised me |
| 09:47 | <nessy> | well, one expectation is that just by introducing audio and video into HTML5, HTML5 will magically do everything that DAISY was built for |
| 09:47 | <nessy> | all the table of contents stuff, direct access to content, sequencing of content etc |
| 09:48 | <nessy> | all of this is, of course, possible using javascript with HTML5 now, but the expectation was that it'll just be in the declarative parts |
| 09:48 | <othermaciej> | I don't really understand what DAISY is |
| 09:48 | <nessy> | think of talking books |
| 09:48 | <nessy> | seen any of those? |
| 09:48 | <othermaciej> | like audiobooks? |
| 09:48 | <othermaciej> | I'm familiar with the concept, though not a user myself |
| 09:48 | <nessy> | not just CDs that are read out books |
| 09:49 | <othermaciej> | I'm looking at the DAISY consortium page |
| 09:49 | <nessy> | more books and news etc that has been read in chapters and is directly accessible |
| 09:50 | <nessy> | http://www.readhowyouwant.com/formats/audio-format.aspx <- is quite instructive |
| 09:50 | <Hixie> | like audible.com books? |
| 09:50 | <asmodai> | oh nice - http://www.mozilla.com/en-US/firefox/lorentz/ |
| 09:50 | <othermaciej> | do audible.com book have structure? |
| 09:51 | <Hixie> | well they have chapters and stuff |
| 09:51 | <Hixie> | like a regular MPEG file |
| 09:51 | <Hixie> | not sure what else you would want from an audio book |
| 09:51 | <nessy> | e.g. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bgWOoQ6FgA0 |
| 09:51 | <annevk> | blargh, Tyler's rhetoric is starting to annoy me |
| 09:52 | <othermaciej> | well at least I got him to comment on what "subset" means |
| 09:53 | <annevk> | the continued insistence on there being a problem with CORS while there's not at all agreement on that; saying UMP exists to solve the non-definition of credentials in CORS while I pointed out several months ago that was a fixed issue, etc. |
| 09:54 | <annevk> | he doesn't want to work together, he just wants to push his thing through |
| 09:55 | <othermaciej> | well, I expect Apple at least will ignore it either way |
| 09:55 | <annevk> | in almost similar tactic to the XHTML2 WG; by defining something that cannot be implemented and therefore avoiding all the critical steps in the WD-process |
| 09:55 | <othermaciej> | I wonder if any vendor will announce plan to implement UMP |
| 09:55 | <annevk> | (the XHTML2 WG used modularization as an excuse to say it would not directly be implemented but rather other things would build on top of it and those would be implemented and tested) |
| 09:55 | <Hixie> | if there's no vendor willing to implement, we should reguse to publish it |
| 09:56 | <Hixie> | there's no point working on things without vendor support |
| 09:56 | <othermaciej> | there's the highly dubious "it's already sort of supported if you support CORS" argument |
| 09:57 | <othermaciej> | so far no vendors but Apple have stated their intent on the list |
| 09:57 | <othermaciej> | though privately it seem like Google folks aren't really interested either |
| 09:57 | <annevk> | pretty much the same as when Steven claimed Opera supported XHTML2 |
| 09:57 | <Hixie> | if it's a strict subset of CORS and all the vendors are implementing CORS then UMP doesn't seem to add anything |
| 09:58 | <othermaciej> | it adds purity of essence |
| 09:58 | <nessy> | (man, there are no short videos to explain DAISY! this is one is a bit better http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9gKj2hLFoo ) |
| 09:58 | <othermaciej> | otherwise the Origin header will introduce a foreign substance into our precious bodily fluid |
| 10:00 | <othermaciej> | it sound like DAISY is something you could implement given JavaScript and HTML5, but it's not just built-in HTML5 functionality |
| 10:02 | <nessy> | indeed |
| 10:02 | <nessy> | that's what is hard to explain |
| 10:02 | <nessy> | and many in the a11y TF want to drive HTML5 to support it declaratively |
| 10:03 | <annevk> | more crazy markup languages? |
| 10:04 | <annevk> | o_O |
| 10:04 | <othermaciej> | that would be a pretty complicated and specialized addition |
| 10:05 | <annevk> | yeah that's not going to happen |
| 10:05 | <othermaciej> | maybe worth adding someday, but not as important as critical things like captioning and the like |
| 10:06 | <nessy> | check out this video at about 2min in http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mxI8zhLqs3M |
| 10:07 | <othermaciej> | so is the interesting bit the fact that it syncs with the text? |
| 10:07 | <nessy> | I think over time we might get those features - but right now is too early |
| 10:07 | <nessy> | it has all sorts of interesting features |
| 10:07 | <othermaciej> | IBooks btw will be accessible via audio without the need to make a special version with audio files in it |
| 10:08 | <nessy> | you can search through long audio recordings by jumping from section to section, search by text, also get screenreader functionality in visible stuff like the Web etc |
| 10:08 | <nessy> | what standard to IBooks follow? |
| 10:09 | <othermaciej> | they are basically ePub |
| 10:09 | <othermaciej> | except that we don't restrict them to the epub subset of HTML |
| 10:09 | <othermaciej> | arbitrary XHTML5 can be used |
| 10:10 | <jgraham> | othermaciej: Man, now I feel conflicted. You embraced and extended a standrd, but did it by making it use another open standard and made it better |
| 10:10 | <othermaciej> | or at least, anything that WebKit can support |
| 10:10 | <jgraham> | Does it restrict to XML? |
| 10:11 | <nessy> | ePub is also a DAISY standard |
| 10:12 | <jgraham> | (I think ePub would be a lot better if it were HTML+an optional manifest and some conventions about how to extract data from the HTML) |
| 10:12 | <jgraham> | (and honestly it would be nice if you could avoid the manifest) |
| 10:13 | <nessy> | interesting - maybe Apple has already managed to marry the two worlds ... |
| 10:16 | <othermaciej> | jgraham: it's actually typically multiple XHTML files - one per chapter |
| 10:17 | <othermaciej> | jgraham: I actually don't know offhand if you have to use XML or can use the HTML syntax - most existing epub books are XHTML though |
| 10:17 | <zcorpan> | "though ~5% of another sample were using the pragma incorrectly anyway [2]." |
| 10:18 | <zcorpan> | Hixie: i don't see how to draw that conclusion from [2] http://hsivonen.iki.fi/test/moz/analysis.txt ? |
| 10:19 | <Hixie> | oh i misread it |
| 10:19 | <Hixie> | it's cases of content-language, not cases of bad values of content-language |
| 10:20 | <Hixie> | so i guess it's just repeating the previous datum |
| 10:20 | <zcorpan> | indeed |
| 10:21 | <jgraham> | othermaciej: Yeah, I didn't mean "a single HTML file" so much as "an arbitary number of HTML files" |
| 10:21 | <jgraham> | I believe ePub theoretically requires well formed XML, which would explain most books having that format |
| 10:21 | <othermaciej> | jgraham: it basically is XHTML plus a manifest - I'm actually not sure if text/html would work |
| 10:22 | <othermaciej> | once I get an iPad I'll try sticking handmade epub books on it to see |
| 10:22 | zcorpan | wonders whether ePub will go down the legacy mobile path and treat application/xhtml+xml as text/html |
| 10:22 | <jgraham> | othermaciej: As far as I can tell both the manifest and the chapter files are supposed to be well-formed XML |
| 10:23 | <jgraham> | With namespaces and all sorts of crap |
| 10:23 | <jgraham> | It seems altogether unnecessary |
| 10:25 | <othermaciej> | jgraham: definitely "supposed to" according to epub - I don't know if our implementation enforces that restriction |
| 10:54 | <hsivonen> | It's kinda sad that the ePub folks are still tracking the XHTML2 WG's stuff instead of XHTML5 |
| 10:55 | <hsivonen> | is the book reader on iPad using WebKit? |
| 10:55 | <annevk> | othermaciej just said so |
| 10:55 | <hsivonen> | oh |
| 10:55 | <annevk> | it supports whatever WebKit supports |
| 10:55 | hsivonen | reads scrollback |
| 10:56 | <othermaciej> | it's basically epub + xhtml5 |
| 10:56 | <hsivonen> | so what's the deal with reports saying you can't use <video> in ePub on iPad? |
| 10:56 | <othermaciej> | dunno, could be a bug |
| 10:56 | <annevk> | ooh, WebKit is doing <progress> already to some extent |
| 10:56 | <hsivonen> | and is CSS restricted somehow to make all the books look the same? |
| 10:56 | <othermaciej> | maybe there are artificial restrictions I don't know about |
| 10:56 | <othermaciej> | books can include their own CSS |
| 10:59 | <annevk> | ah, Nokia is adding it |
| 11:37 | <hsivonen> | Is there an up-to-date report of PICS support in browsers? |
| 11:37 | <hsivonen> | hmm. PICS in ungooglable |
| 11:38 | hsivonen | guesses that Google treats "PICS" as a synonym for "pictures" |
| 11:38 | hsivonen | files a search quality complaint |
| 11:39 | <Philip`> | Searching for "+pics" finds the right PICS, about a dozen places down |
| 11:41 | <hsivonen> | Philip`: thanks |
| 11:43 | <othermaciej> | Safari has no PICS support |
| 11:43 | <othermaciej> | I believe IE does have it |
| 11:45 | <hsivonen> | so PICS label is basically an IE only feature |
| 11:45 | <hsivonen> | and in the wishful W3C land PICS has been superseded by an RDF vocabulary |
| 11:45 | hsivonen | wonders if IE support the RDF thingy |
| 11:46 | <hsivonen> | did FCC and FTC drop interest shortly after IE implemented PICS? |
| 11:47 | <hsivonen> | or why don't other browsers support PICS? |
| 11:47 | <hsivonen> | if IE dropped PICS support today, would FTC and FCC wake up again? |
| 11:48 | <othermaciej> | was PICS ever driven by legal requirements? |
| 11:49 | <othermaciej> | PICS basically seems like a way for sites to claim they won't do bad things with your personal information, in machine-readable form |
| 11:49 | <othermaciej> | I am not sure what "support" even means really |
| 11:49 | <hsivonen> | othermaciej: I thought the whole point of PICS was that the Web folks could say to the FTC and the FCC that the Web is a self-regulating industry |
| 11:49 | <hsivonen> | othermaciej: PICS is a mechanism for saying "we don't have nudity here" |
| 11:49 | <hsivonen> | othermaciej: it's not about personal info |
| 11:50 | <othermaciej> | oh |
| 11:50 | <hsivonen> | like the MPAA self-rates almost every movie as R and says they are a self-regulating industry so the Congress can stay out |
| 11:50 | <othermaciej> | I guess porn sites are not usually motivated to claim not to be porn sites |
| 11:51 | <othermaciej> | I guess in theory then Parental Controls mode in Safari could do something with PICS, but I am not sure enough sites use it |
| 11:51 | <hsivonen> | www.apple.com claims to have no nudity or sexual material, no violence, no potentially offensive language and no "other topics" |
| 11:51 | <hsivonen> | gotta love the lack of other topics |
| 11:52 | <othermaciej> | I believe "other topics" would be against our developer agreement |
| 11:53 | jgraham | wonders if one should take "other" literally and conclude that there is no material at all on apple.com |
| 11:53 | <hsivonen> | maybe "other topics" means the category labeled "potentially harmful activities" elsewhere |
| 11:54 | <hsivonen> | i.e. tobacco, alcohol, drugs, weapons, gambling, setting bad example to children, horror and distrimination based on gender, sexual orientation, ethnic, religious or national identity |
| 11:56 | <hsivonen> | *discrimination |
| 11:57 | <annevk> | I wonder how often IRI issues have to be explained again |
| 11:58 | <annevk> | So far this IRI WG does not seem very effective... |
| 12:00 | <hsivonen> | othermaciej: P3P was the privacy thing |
| 12:01 | <othermaciej> | hsivonen: ah, I always get those confused apparently |
| 12:01 | <hsivonen> | IIRC that was about telling the FTC and the EU that the Web is a self-regulating industry and doesn't need governmental regulation |
| 12:01 | <annevk> | o_O http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-iri/2010Apr/0015.html email client fail |
| 12:02 | <annevk> | fortunately I wrote the character out too |
| 12:14 | <hsivonen> | hmm. I wonder if I should bother to escalate the <nobr> but to the tracker... |
| 12:17 | <hsivonen> | Microsoft has published documentation about PICS support on 2010-03-25 |
| 12:17 | <othermaciej> | hsivonen: you disagree with Hixie's stance on nobr? |
| 12:17 | <hsivonen> | othermaciej: yes |
| 12:18 | <othermaciej> | I thought about reopening if I could find a case that is as arguably semantic as <pre> |
| 12:18 | <hsivonen> | I think <nobr> isn't used without thinking, so banning it doesn't serve an educational purpose |
| 12:18 | <othermaciej> | it seems that in principle <nobr> is no less semantic than <pre> |
| 12:18 | <hsivonen> | and having to use span + style is less convenient than the interoperable dedicated element |
| 12:18 | <annevk> | Isn't PICS that P3P thing or so? That they use to determine whether third party cookies can be set or something silly like that? |
| 12:19 | <othermaciej> | apparently I made a better case for <wbr> |
| 12:19 | <hsivonen> | annevk: PICS is about declaring "no nudity". P3P is about declaring "we don't do bad things with cookies" |
| 12:20 | <annevk> | ah |
| 12:20 | <annevk> | all this having faith in the supplier seems kind of misguided |
| 12:22 | <hsivonen> | annevk: they are smokescreens to repel government authorities |
| 12:26 | <annevk> | some people genuinely believe in them |
| 12:26 | <annevk> | did you follow the geolocation mess? |
| 12:26 | <annevk> | they wanted something like PICS/P3P for geolocation |
| 12:26 | <annevk> | I'm somewhat glad that failed to materialize |
| 12:28 | <zcorpan> | PICS for geolocation? to prevent zooming in on nude people on google maps? |
| 12:29 | <othermaciej> | geopriv |
| 12:29 | <othermaciej> | they think that whenever you transmit a piece of geolocation data, you should label it with the user's preferences for what they'd like to allow the receiver to do with it |
| 12:29 | <zcorpan> | or don't give away my location while i'm at the strip club |
| 12:29 | <annevk> | zcorpan, hehe, did you see the Google Maps / Chatroulette mashup? it's scary |
| 12:32 | <zcorpan> | hadn't |
| 14:42 | <remysharp> | Regarding media elements - if I want to visualise the download progress of the playable timerange, should I be listening for the durationChanged event or the progress event? |
| 14:43 | <zcorpan> | remysharp: progress |
| 14:44 | <remysharp> | I was using progress in a test, but (I think Firefox) wasn't firing all the way to the end of the media downloading |
| 14:44 | <zcorpan> | remysharp: durationchange is only fired when the duration changes, which will likely be just once very early |
| 14:44 | <remysharp> | i.e. I'd read the video.seekable.end() when progress fired, and it wouldn't be the completed length |
| 14:45 | <zcorpan> | remysharp: i think that's a bug then |
| 14:45 | <remysharp> | or should I have been using the video.duration prop on the progress event firing? |
| 14:46 | <zcorpan> | duration doesn't say how much has been downloaded |
| 14:46 | <remysharp> | no - sorry I should have been clear - it was to update a playhead scrubber |
| 14:46 | <zcorpan> | remysharp: "Once the entire media resource has been fetched (but potentially before any of it has been decoded) |
| 14:46 | <zcorpan> | Queue a task to fire a simple event named progress at the media element." |
| 14:46 | <remysharp> | i.e. what amount of the video can be played |
| 14:47 | <remysharp> | ah - so the video is decoded after that event |
| 14:47 | <zcorpan> | might be |
| 14:47 | <remysharp> | therefore the duration wouldn't potentially be calculated on the last progress event firing? |
| 14:48 | <remysharp> | but - I guess that said, if the meta data comes down first, I'd have the duration before the video can be played, right? |
| 14:48 | <zcorpan> | the duration can be known before having decoded any video, e.g. mozilla supports an http header to indicate duration |
| 14:48 | <remysharp> | okay |
| 14:48 | <zcorpan> | if you want to know which parts you can seek to, you probably want .seekable |
| 14:49 | <remysharp> | I've just checked my code example, and I'm listening for the durationChange *and* progress, but updating the scrubber based on the seekable.end() value |
| 14:49 | <zcorpan> | (it's durationchange btw with lowercase c) |
| 14:49 | <remysharp> | aye, but I want it to show how much has loaded as it's loading |
| 14:49 | <remysharp> | (lower c - ta) |
| 14:55 | <remysharp> | zcorpan: cheers for your help. |
| 15:11 | <hsivonen> | regarding http://html5doctor.com/your-questions-answered-6/ : the doctor says he doesn't know why Mozilla have taken that stance (re: not using OS MP3 decoder) |
| 15:11 | <hsivonen> | hasn't this been communicated pretty clearly? |
| 15:11 | <asmodai> | mmm, webkit 2? https://lists.webkit.org/pipermail/webkit-dev/2010-April/012235.html |
| 15:20 | <zcorpan> | hsivonen: i recall reading several statements about h.264, but i don't recall anything about mp3 or using os decoders in general |
| 15:25 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: http://shaver.off.net/diary/2010/01/23/html5-video-and-codecs/ and http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/roc/archives/2009/06/directshow_and.html don't limit the discussion to H.264 |
| 15:38 | <zcorpan> | hsivonen: i don't recall having read those two :-) |
| 16:00 | <JonathanNeal> | Hi all |
| 16:04 | <hsivonen> | hi |
| 16:13 | hsivonen | wonders if <option> has been in the "special" category in the past |
| 16:45 | <remysharp> | another media question - |
| 16:45 | <remysharp> | I've been using the canplay event to say "this is the time I should enable my custom controls" |
| 16:45 | <remysharp> | but sometimes the video download will suspend, so canplay doesn't fire |
| 16:46 | <remysharp> | I'm thinking that I should enable my controls at the loadeddata event - would that be a better approach? |
| 16:46 | <remysharp> | the user can then start the playback, which then eventually fires canplay (I'm seeing this in Firefox btw) |
| 16:50 | <TabAtkins> | I think that's the right thing anyway; iirc for some types of video (live streams?) FF will *never* fire canplay, |
| 16:50 | <remysharp> | cheers - exactly what I was after |
| 16:51 | <remysharp> | ta |
| 16:53 | <remysharp> | ooh - one question tho - |
| 16:53 | <remysharp> | the preload="metadata" attribute |
| 16:53 | <remysharp> | do you know (I'm trying to work out from the spec now) whether that will only fire the loadedmeta data |
| 16:53 | <remysharp> | and not the loadeddata |
| 16:54 | <remysharp> | because then I'd be stuck with no ui |
| 16:54 | <remysharp> | so perhaps I could hook at the loadedmetadata instead? |
| 16:54 | <TabAtkins> | Not sure at that point. |
| 16:54 | <remysharp> | Darn :-\ |
| 16:54 | <TabAtkins> | I think roc is working on video in FF. |
| 16:55 | <remysharp> | roc? Is that someone in here? |
| 16:55 | <TabAtkins> | robert o'callahan. Don't know if he's in the room right now. |
| 16:56 | TabAtkins | still hasnt' figured out all of irssi's commands. |
| 16:56 | <remysharp> | okay, cheers for that - I'll keep my eyes peeled :) |
| 17:07 | <Philip`> | TabAtkins: /names to see who's here, or just type their name and press tab and see if it autocompletes |
| 17:08 | <TabAtkins> | Ah, thanks for /names. roc has a short enough name that I thought perhaps robod was blocking him or something. |
| 17:10 | <Philip`> | Type in the whole name and tab-complete and it'll add a ": " if the person is here |
| 17:11 | <TabAtkins> | Yeah, I guess that's true. |
| 17:11 | <Philip`> | or just the first few letters and tab will cycle through all the options |
| 17:11 | <TabAtkins> | Ah, didn't know about the cycling. |
| 17:11 | <TabAtkins> | I just delete and type more if it doesn't hit the right person first time. |
| 17:12 | gsnedders | just learnt to use irssi by hitting random keys |
| 17:19 | <hsivonen> | hmm. WebKit closes stuff more aggressively on </form> than old Gecko or IE do |
| 17:19 | <hsivonen> | I wonder if the spec should change to be like WebKit on <form><foo>bar</form>baz |
| 17:19 | <hsivonen> | anyway, I believe <button> shouldn't be scoping |
| 17:20 | <JonathanNeal> | Hi everybody! |
| 17:20 | <hsivonen> | bug that made me look at <button> and </form>: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=558302 |
| 17:21 | <TabAtkins> | hsivonen: Damn you XML! |
| 17:24 | <ROBOd> | TabAtkins: me? blocking? who? :) |
| 17:25 | <TabAtkins> | If roc was in the room, your name would probably come directly before him. So I wasn't sure if he was actually not here or what. ^_^ |
| 17:30 | <JonathanNeal> | How would you describe the HTML5 ie problem? |
| 17:30 | <TabAtkins> | The specific treats-unknown-element-start-and-end-tags-as-void-elements problem? |
| 17:31 | <JonathanNeal> | Yea. |
| 17:32 | <JonathanNeal> | Hmm, looking to summarize what my script will do. |
| 17:32 | <TabAtkins> | I would describe it as "IE treats unknown element start and end tags as void elements". |
| 17:33 | <JonathanNeal> | Yea, yea. |
| 17:33 | <JonathanNeal> | Hmm, so I'm describing it as "IE Print Protector is a script that allows you to print HTML5 pages in Internet Explorer" and I'll use what you wrote to describe the issue. |
| 17:33 | <paul_irish> | Thus making them impossible to style and they instantly collapse, spewing their contents into the DOM |
| 17:33 | <TabAtkins> | Probably describe wtf that actually means to the page author, which is "the unknown elements no longer wrap their contents". |
| 17:35 | <miketaylr> | Print Protector™ |
| 17:43 | <annevk> | oh, looks like I hit a nerve |
| 17:49 | <JonathanNeal> | No TM, miketaylr :-P I don't want anyone to think I somehow am a genius. It will only give them reason to prove I am not. :) |
| 17:49 | <JonathanNeal> | "Oh, I packaged this whole thing up for you, I wrote this script, look at me, I'm so cool" |
| 17:50 | <miketaylr> | hahaha |
| 17:50 | <JonathanNeal> | We test it, make it look sexy so those who need it find it easily and merrily. |
| 17:51 | <JonathanNeal> | Like charitable prostitution |
| 18:24 | <JonathanNeal> | TabAtkins, wanna help me switch to microdata for the ie print page I'll be building? I need a link to your tutorial again :) |
| 18:31 | <TabAtkins> | Sure! |
| 18:31 | <TabAtkins> | www.xanthir.com/:gg5 |
| 18:47 | <KaOSoFt> | Good afternoon. |
| 18:48 | <JonathanNeal> | Thanks! |
| 18:51 | <KaOSoFt> | ? |
| 18:52 | <KaOSoFt> | JonathanNeal- I tested it at home (IE8), and it worked marvelously. |
| 18:58 | <JonathanNeal> | KaOSoFt, awesome. |
| 18:59 | <KaOSoFt> | JonathanNeal- Whenever you fell it's ready, let me know. My blog site is not quite ready yet, but I'll publish whenever is possible/viable. |
| 19:09 | <JonathanNeal> | Cool. |
| 19:55 | <KaOSoFt> | feel* |
| 20:00 | <AryehGregor> | It annoys me when page speed analyzers complain that you aren't using a CDN. |
| 20:01 | <AryehGregor> | . . . Maybe it shouldn't. Are there cheap/easy-to-use CDNs around? |
| 20:01 | AryehGregor | gets the impression that at least the high-profile ones are "call for a quote"-type things |
| 20:07 | <TabAtkins> | AryehGregor: afaik, you're right. |
| 20:07 | <Dashiva> | Coral is free :) |
| 20:07 | <Dashiva> | But I have trouble imagining coral would be faster than not using a CDN |
| 20:08 | <AryehGregor> | Yeah, I'm also wondering about whether you'd get real performance improvements from using some smaller CDNs. |
| 20:08 | <AryehGregor> | In principle, a CDN with a lot of connectivity might be able to charge *less* for the same bandwidth than the data center where your site is hosted. |
| 20:09 | <AryehGregor> | Although the storage probably costs them more, due to the duplication. |
| 20:09 | <TabAtkins> | I just ignore that recommendation when I'm using YSlow, but it does annoy me that I can't get a perfect report card. ;_; |
| 20:09 | AryehGregor | notes that Akamai's website appears to be written entirely in Flash |
| 20:09 | <AryehGregor> | I was just using webpagetest.org. |
| 20:10 | AryehGregor | didn't realize his images were so badly compressed |
| 20:10 | <KaOSoFt> | AryehGregor- Just make a subdomain of the like: media.yoursite.com |
| 20:10 | <TabAtkins> | YSlow has a "profile" you can set, though - the "small site" setting doesn't complain about CDNs. |
| 20:10 | <AryehGregor> | KaOSoFt, what's the point in that? |
| 20:10 | <KaOSoFt> | That'll trick the web browser into making another thread for downloading those other files. |
| 20:10 | <AryehGregor> | Other than a few more parallel requests, I guess. |
| 20:10 | <KaOSoFt> | That. |
| 20:10 | <AryehGregor> | Well, there's not much point in putting *all* included content there. |
| 20:10 | <AryehGregor> | If you want to use that hack, you have to split them among several subdomains. |
| 20:10 | <TabAtkins> | AryehGregor: Doing subdomains also lets you more easily tweak compressions/caching/etc. |
| 20:11 | <AryehGregor> | Compression/caching works fine for me right now. |
| 20:11 | <TabAtkins> | Kk. |
| 20:11 | <AryehGregor> | After I fixed some JS not being compressed because of application/x-javascript vs. application/javascript vs. text/javascript . . . |
| 20:11 | <KaOSoFt> | If your site needs more than, let's say, 8 simultaneous requests (images, styles, scripts, content, etc.), tricking it that way should work. |
| 20:12 | <Philip`> | AryehGregor: The Amazon CDN sounds pretty easy to use |
| 20:12 | <AryehGregor> | KaOSoFt, but if all the simultaneous requests are on the same domain, it doesn't help you if it's separate from your main site. |
| 20:12 | <AryehGregor> | Philip`, yeah, I'd heard about that. |
| 20:12 | <AryehGregor> | I tried SimpleCDN, but it didn't work. |
| 20:12 | <TabAtkins> | Amazon is sorta expensive. |
| 20:12 | <AryehGregor> | Amazon sounds plausible, but I'm wondering about cost. |
| 20:12 | <Philip`> | http://aws.amazon.com/cloudfront/ |
| 20:12 | <TabAtkins> | My old company used it to serve our actual software, but that's it. |
| 20:12 | <Philip`> | "$0.150 per GB – first 10 TB / month data transfer out" |
| 20:13 | <TabAtkins> | Oh, that's something different. I was using s3. |
| 20:13 | <KaOSoFt> | Philip`- That's cheap. |
| 20:13 | <KaOSoFt> | ._. |
| 20:14 | <Philip`> | CloudFront is basically a faster geographically-distributed frontend to S3 |
| 20:15 | <Philip`> | for approximately the same cost per GB |
| 20:15 | AryehGregor | tries to work out if $0.150 per GB is more or less expensive than $50/Mbps at the 95th percentile |
| 20:15 | AryehGregor | gives up, needs a traffic distribution |
| 20:15 | <KaOSoFt> | Haha. |
| 20:15 | <AryehGregor> | I think this stuff is actually a pretty small part of my bandwidth, though. |
| 20:15 | <Philip`> | That seems impossible to calculate, since you might go 0Mbps for 95% of the time and then ~infinity Mbps for 5% of the time |
| 20:16 | AryehGregor | discovers that some site admin or another stuck zillions of ImageShack-hosted images on his front page, sigh |
| 20:16 | <TabAtkins> | AryehGregor: link? |
| 20:16 | <AryehGregor> | TabAtkins, twcenter.net |
| 20:17 | <KaOSoFt> | Are you... are you the webmaster of that site? |
| 20:17 | <TabAtkins> | The same site admin doesn't realize that jpegs don't play nicely with text in image. |
| 20:17 | <AryehGregor> | KaOSoFt, yes. |
| 20:17 | <KaOSoFt> | AryehGregor- I got Empire - Total War because of the mods there. |
| 20:17 | <AryehGregor> | I didn't make the front page, though, don't blame me. |
| 20:17 | <KaOSoFt> | :D |
| 20:17 | <AryehGregor> | KaOSoFt, :) |
| 20:17 | <AryehGregor> | I'm the primary webmaster, anyway. |
| 20:18 | <AryehGregor> | There are like eight admins, but I do most of the techy stuff. |
| 20:18 | <AryehGregor> | Our primary bandwidth drain is, in fact, downloads. |
| 20:19 | <KaOSoFt> | TabAtkins- Why are there like, two more nicknames like yours? |
| 20:19 | <KaOSoFt> | I mean, here, in the channel. |
| 20:19 | <TabAtkins> | KaOSoFt: The one I'm talking as right now is my work desktop. The other one or two are my laptops. |
| 20:19 | <KaOSoFt> | Oh, I see. |
| 20:20 | <TabAtkins> | Much easier to just keep irc up at all times than manually launch it whenever I use a laptop. |
| 20:20 | <gsnedders> | You should just log in to one server over ssh and run irssi on it |
| 20:20 | <TabAtkins> | gsnedders: My current solution requires less work than that. |
| 20:21 | <TabAtkins> | And all the nicks are set to hilight for me, so shrug. |
| 20:23 | <AryehGregor> | . . . @ http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/2130/50633715.png being a PNG |
| 20:27 | <TabAtkins> | What's the closest thing to public domain that has a good chance of being recognized internationally? BSD? MIT? |
| 20:28 | <AryehGregor> | In some jurisdictions, no open-source license will be recognized internationally. |
| 20:28 | <KaOSoFt> | MIT is as free as it could be. |
| 20:28 | <AryehGregor> | You can use the CC public domain dedication. |
| 20:32 | <TabAtkins> | How about the cc0 license? |
| 20:32 | <TabAtkins> | http://creativecommons.org/publicdomain/zero/1.0/ |
| 20:33 | <AryehGregor> | Ugh, my front page is a complete trainwreck. 4.4 MB of content. |
| 20:33 | AryehGregor | gives up on it |
| 20:33 | <TabAtkins> | Ooh, http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4024/4499455073_a729acd621_o.png |
| 20:34 | <TabAtkins> | ^^^ This is why a fast, simple auto-update is ideal. |
| 20:34 | <AryehGregor> | You bet. |
| 20:35 | <AryehGregor> | Chrome is by far the best at auto-updating. Firefox is a pain. |
| 20:35 | <AryehGregor> | I don't know why people are so paranoid about silent auto-update. |
| 20:35 | <Dashiva> | Because when stuff breaks, users get mad |
| 20:36 | AryehGregor | regularly gets nagged on his Linux machine at school to update Firefox . . . although probably can't, since you know, he's not root? |
| 20:36 | <AryehGregor> | Dashiva, easy solution: don't break stuff on upgrade. |
| 20:36 | <AryehGregor> | (Chrome breaks too often for me, but that's probably because I'm on the dev channel and too lazy to switch to beta) |
| 20:36 | <Dashiva> | Firefox in particular has that entire forest of extensions |
| 20:37 | <AryehGregor> | Yes, and then it prompts you *synchronously* every time you start whether you want to check for updates. |
| 20:38 | <AryehGregor> | STFU, I don't care. |
| 20:38 | <AryehGregor> | Oh, but you're saying they might be broken by upgrade. |
| 20:38 | <TabAtkins> | That synchronous checking is really quite annoying. |
| 20:38 | <AryehGregor> | Well, that's because Firefox extensions are much more powerful than Chrome extensions. |
| 20:38 | <AryehGregor> | Comes at a cost. |
| 20:38 | <AryehGregor> | I guess. |
| 20:38 | <TabAtkins> | I've often started FF, gone to do something else (because with all my extensions, starting FF takes 3 or 4 minutes), only to come back to it saying an extension has been updated. |
| 20:39 | <AryehGregor> | My impression is that Firefox gives too much power to extensions, so they wind up being must-haves, but slowing the browser down, breaking on upgrade . . . |
| 20:39 | <AryehGregor> | Chrome extensions seem to be just web pages, which have a few magic powers that use narrow and well-defined APIs that aren't likely to break across upgrade. |
| 20:39 | <AryehGregor> | I think Firefox is going that way with Jetpacks or whatever they're called? Dunno, I don't actually have any idea what I'm talking about. :D |
| 20:40 | <AryehGregor> | But I found that installing lots of extensions on Firefox is a bad idea, in the end. |
| 20:40 | <AryehGregor> | Too much pain. |
| 20:41 | <TabAtkins> | That's approximately right. |
| 20:43 | <Dashiva> | In particular ones that update frequently... |
| 20:44 | <AryehGregor> | I'm also suspicious of the performance impact. |
| 20:47 | <KaOSoFt> | Chrome is quite fast, and it's got this eerie smoothness that I like. |
| 20:47 | <KaOSoFt> | But I think it lacks some functionality. |
| 20:47 | <AryehGregor> | Works well enough for me. |
| 20:47 | <KaOSoFt> | I'm using it right now. |
| 20:47 | <KaOSoFt> | This extra functionality doesn't do me any good at work. |
| 20:48 | <KaOSoFt> | So I don't need it. |
| 20:49 | <AryehGregor> | Doesn't do me any good at home either. |
| 20:50 | <AryehGregor> | Sadly, work (i.e., school) runs RHEL5, so it's hard to install Chrome. |
| 20:50 | <AryehGregor> | I haven't bothered trying. |
| 20:50 | <AryehGregor> | Libraries too outdated . . . |
| 20:50 | <TabAtkins> | Only two things I've found that I miss in Chrome: the ability to actually view the source that a page came in with ("View Source" makes a new request, which screws up some things) and the ability to get at image information. |
| 20:51 | TabAtkins | supposes he should file bugs about those. |
| 20:51 | <AryehGregor> | Yeah, those two are mildly annoying. |
| 20:51 | <gsnedders> | How does that work with POST? |
| 20:51 | <TabAtkins> | Badly. |
| 20:51 | <AryehGregor> | gsnedders, it doesn't, that's the problem. |
| 20:51 | <miketaylr> | it doesn't |
| 20:51 | <gsnedders> | Does it still make another request? |
| 20:51 | <gsnedders> | Or does it just not give you view sourcE? |
| 20:51 | <TabAtkins> | Yes, but as GET, I think. |
| 20:51 | <AryehGregor> | You can at least get image resolution if you open it in a new tab, I noticed. |
| 20:51 | <gsnedders> | Oh dear |
| 20:51 | <AryehGregor> | It displays in the title. |
| 20:51 | <AryehGregor> | If you hover over the tab title. |
| 20:51 | <TabAtkins> | I know that it screws up the CSS module post-processor, so I have to use FF when I'm editting a spec. |
| 20:51 | <AryehGregor> | Discoverability FTW. |
| 21:17 | <KaOSoFt> | Today I leave early, though there is a storm out there... Oh, well, goodbye anyways. |
| 21:45 | <JonathanNeal> | All I need is a style for the page. |
| 22:23 | <JonathanNeal> | Anyone care to review http://www.iecss.com/print-protector/ let me know if I missed anything? |
| 22:25 | <Philip`> | JonathanNeal: The ri kerning in the title image is ugly :-( |
| 22:26 | <JonathanNeal> | Noted, what font should I use? |
| 22:27 | <Philip`> | Comic Sans? |
| 22:27 | <Philip`> | Can you stop calling it a shiv, and call it something like a shim instead, since that would make much more sense? |
| 22:30 | <JonathanNeal> | Philip`, is it really that important? http://ejohn.org/blog/html5-shiv/ http://remysharp.com/2009/01/07/html5-enabling-script/ |
| 22:30 | <Hixie> | a shiv is a weapon |
| 22:30 | <Hixie> | a shim is a thin strip of material to make things align |
| 22:31 | <JonathanNeal> | The term shiv originates from John Resig, the creator of jQuery, who used the word as a metaphor to describe shiving support for HTML5 elements into Internet Explorer via javascript, where shiving is a slang term for a sharp object used as a knife-like weapon. There's also a chance that John had a moment of false etymology and meant to use the word shim, which in computing means an application compatibility workaround. |
| 22:31 | <TabAtkins> | I'm going with the second possibility, which makes much more sense. |
| 22:32 | <Hixie> | you could use the word ship, claiming that you are "providing a way to get there from here" |
| 22:32 | <JonathanNeal> | Well, I don't think I'll be offending any SHIV people by changing the wording to SHIM --- done! |
| 22:32 | <jgraham> | You could use the word "hack" instead and then spend lots of time explaining to your grandparents that NSA aren't after you |
| 22:33 | <Hixie> | or or "shin", and say that you are giving IE legs to stand on |
| 22:33 | <Philip`> | Replacing things like <video> and <canvas> with a <div> on printing seems like a terrible idea, because it won't do anything useful in IE8 and it'll completely break printing of the elements in IE9 |
| 22:33 | <Hixie> | or "shia" and claim it to be a metaphor for forking standards... |
| 22:34 | <Philip`> | (Same for all the other elements that have special not-purely-CSS renderings, too) |
| 22:34 | <TabAtkins> | Ooh, good point. You need a cc targeting IE8 and earlier only. |
| 22:36 | <Philip`> | I think IE9 parses unknown elements in an XMLish way so you don't actually need to do anything there |
| 22:36 | <JonathanNeal> | TabAtkins, I will do that. |
| 22:56 | <JonathanNeal> | Okay, it's all updated. |
| 23:26 | <JonathanNeal> | s'all good? |
| 23:31 | <othermaciej> | MikeSmith: I'm around if you want to chat at all |
| 23:32 | <TabAtkins> | Very interesting with the newer updates, JonathanNeal. |
| 23:35 | <TabAtkins> | JonathanNeal: Does IE ignore media=print on stylesheets or something? |
| 23:36 | <JonathanNeal> | What do you mean? |
| 23:37 | <nessy> | othermaciej: now sent the change proposals email for media a11y - let's see what happens |
| 23:37 | <TabAtkins> | You have the _exposePrint and _concealPrint functions, which just turn <style media=print> into <style media=screen old_media=print>, etc. |
| 23:44 | <JonathanNeal> | Well, that's because I replace html5 elements with div/span |
| 23:44 | <JonathanNeal> | so exposePrint and consealPrint temporarily change the stylesheets so I can grab the correct styling. |
| 23:44 | <JonathanNeal> | Then it creates a custom stylesheet that styles the new div / span elements. |
| 23:45 | <TabAtkins> | Oh, now I get it. You're switching them to screen just so you can analyze the styles *while* it's in screen mode. |
| 23:45 | <JonathanNeal> | Yes. |
| 23:45 | <TabAtkins> | Can you use CSSOM to do that more cleanly? (Dunno what the level of support is in IE6+. |
| 23:45 | <JonathanNeal> | I've never heard of that. |
| 23:46 | <TabAtkins> | Search for CSS Object Model. |
| 23:46 | <JonathanNeal> | Yea, I pulled up some spec from the w3 but I don't ... know how I would use it. |
| 23:47 | <TabAtkins> | Grab the appropriate stylesheet, iterate through and read out the styles, producing a new stylesheet as you go along with your substitutions. |
| 23:47 | <TabAtkins> | Rather than reading off the styles of individual elements, you'd change selectors that reference the current element names to use, I dunno, a unique class or something. |
| 23:48 | <JonathanNeal> | Ah! That's a good idea. |
| 23:48 | <JonathanNeal> | http://www.quirksmode.org/dom/w3c_cssom.html will this page tell you whether IE6 supports it? |
| 23:48 | <JonathanNeal> | While I understand what you're saying ... I haven't seen the syntax yet to do what you described. |
| 23:49 | <TabAtkins> | No, that's just for CSSOM View. |
| 23:52 | <JonathanNeal> | I am just failing at the right google result to see how to do this. |
| 23:53 | <JonathanNeal> | http://www.quirksmode.org/dom/w3c_css.html#access ? |
| 23:54 | <TabAtkins> | Yes, that's it. |
