| 02:49 | <hsivonen> | asmodai: I don't know about 3.6.7 |
| 02:50 | <hsivonen> | AryehGregor: what's your reason to assume a connection between DRM (or lack thereof) and content companies suing Google over YouTube? |
| 02:51 | <hsivonen> | AryehGregor: as far as I've noticed, the suits have been about content being available on YouTube in any form without prior permission |
| 03:08 | <MikeSmith> | James Clark's tweets about his first experiences with Android on newly purchased Galaxy S make for a good read |
| 03:08 | <MikeSmith> | http://twitter.com/james_clark/status/17785955624 |
| 03:08 | <MikeSmith> | "The hardware side of my Galaxy S is not too bad, but the software is a huge disappointment. And I really wanted to like Android" |
| 03:08 | <MikeSmith> | http://twitter.com/james_clark/status/17827323159 |
| 03:08 | <MikeSmith> | "Learning to use this phone is full of "What the f*** were they thinking?" moments." |
| 03:09 | <MikeSmith> | http://twitter.com/james_clark/status/17833894367 |
| 03:09 | <MikeSmith> | "I don't know whether I will be able to tolerate the Galaxy S that long. I am *very* tempted to go and buy a 3GS right now." |
| 03:09 | <MikeSmith> | http://twitter.com/james_clark/status/17787783222 |
| 03:10 | <MikeSmith> | "The basic problem I am having with my Galaxy S is that (out of the box) it syncs incompletely with the cloud and not at all with my Mac." |
| 03:10 | <jwm> | bah |
| 03:10 | <MikeSmith> | jwm: is that a good bah or a bad bah? |
| 03:15 | <jwm> | it's a silly post |
| 03:15 | <jwm> | something just like the EVO post |
| 03:15 | <jwm> | these people aren't use to android |
| 03:16 | <MikeSmith> | EVO post? |
| 03:17 | <jwm> | yeah, some old guy for a big newspaper wrote an article on his first impressions of the EVO |
| 03:18 | <MikeSmith> | ah |
| 03:18 | <jwm> | but it was his first time using android too |
| 03:18 | <jwm> | all the phone reviews seem to come from android newbies |
| 03:18 | <jwm> | in mainstream press |
| 03:18 | <MikeSmith> | well, good, I'm relieved to find out that there are no problems with usability on Android |
| 03:18 | <MikeSmith> | reassured |
| 03:18 | <jwm> | heh |
| 03:19 | <MikeSmith> | :) |
| 03:19 | <jwm> | there are usability problems with every system |
| 03:19 | <MikeSmith> | true |
| 03:19 | <MikeSmith> | especially the early versions |
| 03:19 | <jwm> | android no worse than others imo |
| 03:19 | <jwm> | I don't think android is that pretty of course |
| 03:19 | <jwm> | I like webos better |
| 03:20 | <jwm> | but I like the fact they are all built on open systems |
| 03:20 | <MikeSmith> | I've not tried webos yet |
| 03:20 | <MikeSmith> | yeah |
| 03:20 | <MikeSmith> | I would like for webos to do well |
| 03:20 | <jwm> | I like my pre better than my gf likes her moment (android) |
| 03:20 | <MikeSmith> | cool |
| 03:20 | <jwm> | I just want an open system to win |
| 03:21 | <MikeSmith> | I hope HP helps to seriously improve on it instead of muffing it up |
| 03:21 | <jwm> | I don't have much faith in corporate |
| 03:21 | <jwm> | hehe |
| 03:22 | <MikeSmith> | yeah |
| 03:22 | <jwm> | I think systems like webos are probably the future |
| 03:22 | <MikeSmith> | hope so |
| 03:22 | <jwm> | webos, chrome os, meebo |
| 03:23 | <jwm> | er meego |
| 03:23 | <MikeSmith> | HP could really help .. they make some decent integrated software as part of the printer, etc., appliances they sell |
| 03:23 | <jwm> | yeah |
| 03:24 | <jwm> | I think all these platforms are converging on linux... which is great |
| 03:24 | <MikeSmith> | yeah |
| 03:24 | <jwm> | it'll make it even more likely for an even more open / capable system to replace them all later on |
| 03:25 | <MikeSmith> | Linux is especially a big improvement over what many device makers were previously using on their devices |
| 03:25 | <jwm> | yeah |
| 03:25 | <MikeSmith> | some of them used to have their own OSes |
| 03:25 | <MikeSmith> | or some still o |
| 03:25 | <MikeSmith> | *do |
| 03:25 | <MikeSmith> | e.g., Kyocera |
| 03:25 | <jwm> | windowsce, symbian, etc |
| 03:25 | <MikeSmith> | those are in a different class than many device-makers OSes |
| 03:25 | <MikeSmith> | those at least are cross-maker |
| 03:26 | <jwm> | ios |
| 03:26 | <jwm> | hehe |
| 03:29 | <jwm> | MikeSmith: you like websockets? |
| 03:30 | <MikeSmith> | jwm: yeah, I expect it's going to prove to be pretty useful |
| 03:31 | <MikeSmith> | the way the websocket feature has evolved from what Hixie originally specced is interesting |
| 03:31 | <MikeSmith> | somebody could write a pretty good article about that |
| 03:32 | <MikeSmith> | "A case study in iterative spec evolution" or whatever |
| 03:38 | <MikeSmith> | jwm: are you a websockets afficiando? |
| 03:41 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: the development of HTML5 and related specs have a number of potential Bachelor's and Master's theses lurking in there |
| 03:42 | <MikeSmith> | true that |
| 03:42 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: also a potential PhD thesis in social sciences or psychology |
| 03:42 | <MikeSmith> | heh |
| 03:43 | <MikeSmith> | I often have felt of the last 3 years that I wish I had studied sociology more in university |
| 03:43 | <MikeSmith> | instead of mocking the people who were studying it |
| 03:44 | <MikeSmith> | because I think it would have helped to give me some insights that I have otherwise had to learn the hard way |
| 03:49 | <jwm> | MikeSmith: yeah I am |
| 03:49 | <jwm> | MikeSmith: I want websocket server support in browsers though |
| 03:49 | <jwm> | MikeSmith: hixie doesn't |
| 03:50 | <MikeSmith> | websocket server support in browsers? |
| 03:50 | <jwm> | yeah |
| 03:50 | <MikeSmith> | why? |
| 03:50 | <jwm> | I want peer to peer in browsers |
| 03:50 | <jwm> | badly |
| 03:50 | <jwm> | true p2p not what hixie is proposing |
| 03:51 | <jwm> | he wants hybrid p2p |
| 03:51 | <MikeSmith> | having websockets servers in browsers doesn't seem like true p2p to me |
| 03:52 | <jwm> | it'd allow for p2p communication from client to client without a central server |
| 03:52 | <jwm> | just a simple directory list that you could get utilizing services or downloads you could find on the web |
| 03:52 | <jwm> | or connecting to a friend |
| 03:54 | <MikeSmith> | I see |
| 03:54 | <jwm> | granted you have to transfer stuff in text using mimetypes for now |
| 03:55 | <jwm> | until 8bit binary safe websockets is in browsers (if it gets there) |
| 04:08 | <MikeSmith> | it would be nice to get an implementation of the contextmenu attribute |
| 04:27 | <kennyluck> | hey, MikeSmith, here's the agenda for COSCUP 2010 |
| 04:27 | <kennyluck> | http://coscup.org/2010/en/program |
| 04:27 | <MikeSmith> | volkmar: any clues on possible contextmenu plans? |
| 04:28 | <MikeSmith> | kennyluck: thanks |
| 04:29 | <MikeSmith> | kennyluck: looks great |
| 04:30 | <kennyluck> | you're on the only track which is exciting, I guess. MikeSmith :) |
| 04:30 | <MikeSmith> | no, the whole event looks pretty good to me, actually |
| 04:31 | <MikeSmith> | kennyluck: but what I'm thinking I might do is take my daughter sightseeing on the 15th |
| 04:31 | <MikeSmith> | for at least part of the day |
| 04:31 | <MikeSmith> | are you planning on attending the whole day on the 15th? |
| 04:35 | <kennyluck> | Hmm.. I see nothing interesting on 8/15. |
| 04:35 | <kennyluck> | Can I join you, MikeSmith? |
| 04:35 | <MikeSmith> | yeah sure man |
| 04:35 | <MikeSmith> | you are going to be our tour guide :) |
| 04:36 | <kennyluck> | Hehe. |
| 04:38 | <MikeSmith> | kennyluck: naoko and I are stepping out for lunch in a bit |
| 04:38 | <MikeSmith> | you on campus yet? |
| 04:39 | <kennyluck> | I am, but I have duty at Hagino-ken |
| 04:39 | <kennyluck> | you at t45 already? |
| 04:39 | <MikeSmith> | yeah |
| 04:40 | <MikeSmith> | anyway, we will be a gakushoko |
| 04:40 | <MikeSmith> | headed out right now |
| 04:40 | <kennyluck> | OK. |
| 04:41 | <kennyluck> | I'm going, too. |
| 05:46 | MikeSmith | wishes there were more status pages like https://wiki.mozilla.org/User:Mounir.lamouri/HTML5_Forms |
| 05:46 | MikeSmith | finds https://wiki.mozilla.org/Tantek-Mozilla-projects |
| 05:47 | MikeSmith | finds context-menu listed in https://wiki.mozilla.org/Tantek-Mozilla-projects#Possible_new_HTML5_UI_elements |
| 06:27 | <MikeSmith> | with Mozilla folk getting together for the Summit this week, might be good to get a spotlight onto what the dev plans are for some as-yet-unimplemented-in-gecko HTML5 features |
| 06:52 | <MikeSmith> | https://bug-41650-attachments.webkit.org/attachment.cgi?id=60587 is interesting |
| 07:10 | <MikeSmith> | some good entertainment value in general in the bug comments for the webkit treebuilder work |
| 07:10 | <MikeSmith> | e.g., https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=41654#c2 |
| 07:11 | <MikeSmith> | I think its a sign of the inevitable madness that ensues among those who implement the parsing algorithm |
| 08:59 | <MikeSmith> | http://trac.webkit.org/changeset/62529 |
| 08:59 | <MikeSmith> | [[ |
| 08:59 | <MikeSmith> | Add WebSocket resource type to Web Inspector. |
| 08:59 | <MikeSmith> | When a new WebSocket connection is established, a line for that connection |
| 08:59 | <MikeSmith> | will appear in Web Inspector's Resources tab. If the resource name is |
| 08:59 | <MikeSmith> | clicked, the details of handshake request and response will be shown. |
| 09:00 | <MikeSmith> | ]] |
| 09:00 | <MikeSmith> | that sounds pretty neat |
| 09:00 | <MikeSmith> | apparently it broke the build, but I'm sure yutak will manage to that fixed pdq |
| 09:17 | <yutak> | Yep, I'm working on a fix |
| 09:20 | <annevk> | don't you want to see the actual bytes being exchanged as well? |
| 09:22 | <yutak> | I'm planning to add the actual messages (not only bytes) into Web Inspector |
| 09:36 | <kennyluck> | Hmm.. does <input type='color'> only allows English color names? Or is this undefined in the spec and browser-specific? |
| 09:37 | <MikeSmith> | kennyluck: defined in the CSS spec |
| 09:37 | <MikeSmith> | not browser-specific |
| 09:38 | <kennyluck> | Anyway, I guess a color panel would be the common UI in the future. |
| 09:39 | <kennyluck> | I am looking at http://slides.html5rocks.com/#slide21 with Safari |
| 09:39 | <kennyluck> | It's just too weird for me to see "red" being valid but "赤い" not. |
| 09:39 | <MikeSmith> | and I don't think the HTML5 spec allows the CSS English color names there |
| 09:40 | <MikeSmith> | not sure but you could check the spec |
| 09:41 | <MikeSmith> | or maybe someebody else here knows |
| 09:41 | <MikeSmith> | if a browser allows the english names there, I think it's not conformant |
| 09:41 | <kennyluck> | "HTML5 - the markup language" disallows <input type='color' value='red'> |
| 09:42 | <kennyluck> | Hmm... Firefox 3.6 does not support :invalid yet. |
| 09:42 | <MikeSmith> | kennyluck: my doc is non-normative |
| 09:43 | <MikeSmith> | it could be there was a change to the spec since after I put that datatype in my spec |
| 09:44 | <zcorpan_> | "The value attribute, if specified, must have a value that is a valid simple color." |
| 09:44 | <zcorpan_> | "A string is a valid simple color if it is exactly seven characters long, and the first character is a U+0023 NUMBER SIGN character (#), and the remaining six characters are all in the range U+0030 DIGIT ZERO (0) to U+0039 DIGIT NINE (9), U+0041 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER A to U+0046 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER F, U+0061 LATIN SMALL LETTER A to U+0066 LATIN SMALL LETTER F, with the first two digits representing the red component, the middle two digits |
| 09:44 | <zcorpan_> | representing the green component, and the last two digits representing the blue component, in hexadecimal." |
| 09:45 | <kennyluck> | I am more interest in the case of client side form validation. |
| 09:45 | <MikeSmith> | kennyluck: ↑ |
| 09:45 | <zcorpan_> | "The value sanitization algorithm is as follows: If the value of the element is a valid simple color, then set it to the value of the element converted to ASCII lowercase; otherwise, set it to the string "#000000"." |
| 09:45 | <zcorpan_> | http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/complete/number-state.html#color-state |
| 09:45 | <kennyluck> | As I said Safari considers "red" valid and "赤い" not |
| 09:46 | <kennyluck> | Let me see what "valid simple color" is... |
| 09:46 | <zcorpan_> | i quoted it above :) |
| 09:46 | <kennyluck> | AhAh, OK. I thought "red", "blue", bra... were valid simple color |
| 09:47 | kennyluck | was checking http://slides.html5rocks.com/#slide21 |
| 09:47 | <kennyluck> | oops |
| 09:47 | kennyluck | was checking http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#client-side-form-validation |
| 09:48 | <Smylers> | kennyluck: The interface a browser displays to the user and which values it sends to a server are two different things. |
| 09:48 | <zcorpan_> | kennyluck: that section is non-normative |
| 09:49 | <kennyluck> | Yes, so I guess this is browser-specific? |
| 09:49 | <Smylers> | A browser could let a user type in ‘red’ but then internally translate that to, say, #FF0000. |
| 09:49 | <MikeSmith> | Smylers: good point, yeah |
| 09:49 | <Smylers> | A browser could also provide a colour wheel to click at a colour, or a camera for you to photograph a colour, or ... |
| 09:49 | <zcorpan_> | does safari allow you to set .value = 'red' ? |
| 09:49 | <zcorpan_> | and still be valid? |
| 09:50 | <MikeSmith> | kennyluck: btw, you might enjoy the multipage version of the spec - http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/ |
| 09:50 | <kennyluck> | I am playing with http://slides.html5rocks.com/#slide21 |
| 09:51 | <kennyluck> | If you type "red" into it, it's no longer :invalid |
| 09:51 | <kennyluck> | I guess this might just be some odd browser behavior. |
| 09:52 | <zcorpan_> | http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/534 |
| 09:52 | <zcorpan_> | it's a bug |
| 09:52 | <kennyluck> | Notice that, with Safarai, if you click the "down" button of <input type="number"> when there's a invalid string it, you got weird number. |
| 09:52 | <kennyluck> | I just got 1.7976931348623157e+308 |
| 09:53 | <kennyluck> | (maybe it's not weird but 2^1024, say, maybe I should remember it) |
| 09:54 | <erlehmann> | zcorpan_, no, it's a feature ! |
| 09:54 | <MikeSmith> | zcorpan_: could it be that it's just showing "red" in the UI but actually setting .value to the corresponding hex color value? |
| 09:55 | <annevk> | this is no UI though |
| 09:55 | <zcorpan_> | MikeSmith: no, see the livedom link above |
| 09:55 | <annevk> | WebKit went about this in completely the wrong way :/ |
| 09:55 | <erlehmann> | kennyluck, to use named colors is questionable at best. look up the xkcd color survey. |
| 09:55 | MikeSmith | looks at livedom link |
| 09:55 | <annevk> | implementing only 10% of the feature or so |
| 09:55 | MikeSmith | looks around for tkent |
| 09:56 | <annevk> | but we knew that already |
| 09:57 | <erlehmann> | kennyluck, http://blog.xkcd.com/2010/05/03/color-survey-results/ |
| 09:57 | <kennyluck> | Thanks, erlehmann. |
| 09:58 | <erlehmann> | summary: no one is right. everyone is wrong. |
| 09:58 | <MikeSmith> | kent says, "it should be removed." |
| 09:58 | <MikeSmith> | meaning that it's a known issue, I suppose |
| 09:58 | <MikeSmith> | and it will be changed |
| 09:59 | <kennyluck> | OK, thanks all. |
| 10:17 | <MikeSmith> | kennyluck: anyway, what you really need to keep in mind is that the Internet is pretty much like MTV |
| 10:17 | <MikeSmith> | and remember that MTV was once hip, but that suddenly it became outdated |
| 10:18 | <MikeSmith> | that's a sober warning to all of us |
| 10:19 | <kennyluck> | Hmm... I don't quite understand though. ;) |
| 10:19 | <MikeSmith> | kennyluck: it's something wise |
| 10:19 | <MikeSmith> | something to think about |
| 10:20 | <MikeSmith> | wow, here's an amazing coincidence - |
| 10:20 | <MikeSmith> | http://mashable.com/2010/07/06/prince-the-internet-is-over/ |
| 10:21 | <MikeSmith> | that article quotes Prince as saying pretty much word-for-word the same sentiment that I just expressed here first |
| 10:21 | <Workshiva> | You should definitely sue |
| 10:22 | <MikeSmith> | I just appreciate the fact that he seems to be an insightful guy |
| 10:22 | <MikeSmith> | just like me |
| 10:22 | <kennyluck> | I am afraid that I am too addicted to the Internet. |
| 10:22 | <kennyluck> | lol |
| 10:24 | <zcorpan_> | kennyluck: realising that you're addicted is the first step to cure it |
| 10:24 | <MikeSmith> | kennyluck: you should switch to computer gaming |
| 10:24 | <MikeSmith> | that's a much more productive use of time |
| 10:24 | kennyluck | just finished a game this weekend. |
| 10:25 | <kennyluck> | oh, I meant computer game playing. |
| 10:25 | <workmad3> | zcorpan_: who *wants* to cure internet addiction? :) |
| 10:25 | <kennyluck> | I don't! For sure. |
| 10:26 | MikeSmith | steps out to go buy some 12-inch singles |
| 10:27 | <hendry> | hey guys, is there a good goto to see the level of support of Web Forms 2 features in webkit? |
| 10:28 | <zcorpan_> | hendry: paste this in the address bar: javascript:(function(){alert('It sucks.')})() |
| 10:28 | <hendry> | zcorpan_: right ;) |
| 10:29 | <hendry> | zcorpan_: is there some conspiracy theory as to why? |
| 10:29 | <zcorpan_> | hendry: they half-implement the API and no UI at all |
| 10:29 | <zcorpan_> | hendry: so the user experience is that you can't submit a form and you have no idea what's wrong |
| 10:30 | <zcorpan_> | (opera has a UI that sucks, but at least it tells you what's wrong) |
| 10:31 | <hendry> | zcorpan_: agreed |
| 10:45 | <MikeSmith> | hendry, zcorpan_ : I think some webkit devs are working very actively on the forms implementation but much of the code just has not landed yet |
| 10:46 | <MikeSmith> | and I'd suspect the reason they don't want to land it more incrementally is to avoid repeating the same problem zcorpan_ just described |
| 10:51 | <hendry> | MikeSmith: thanks for the explanation |
| 10:53 | <AryehGregor> | hsivonen, companies try to negotiate to wrangle all sorts of things out of each other. Google wants to cooperate with the media companies so that they'll agree to let it host their content on YouTube without suing it. Refusing on principle to allow any kind of DRM would hurt their bargaining position. |
| 10:53 | <AryehGregor> | The media companies don't actually object to the content being on YouTube, they just want more control from and profit over it. |
| 10:54 | <AryehGregor> | So they might be a lot happier if there's some kind of DRM, since it reduces the risk of the videos being copied to a site where they don't get a cut of the profits. |
| 10:55 | <AryehGregor> | The point is that overall, Google is not in a position where it wants to antagonize the big media companies more than necessary. |
| 10:55 | <AryehGregor> | Plus, if there's content the media companies are willing to put on YouTube only if there's DRM there, Google directly profits from that. |
| 10:55 | <AryehGregor> | So it's kind of like Steve Jobs' open letter on DRM: "Yeah, it's retarded and anti-user, but we can't really do anything about it, so go complain to the media companies for forcing us to use it." |
| 11:26 | AryehGregor | finally figures out that all of these Buzz posts he's seeing from TabAtkins are actually Twitter posts copied to Buzz |
| 11:26 | <AryehGregor> | Now it makes sense, kind of. |
| 11:27 | <AryehGregor> | Also reassures me that I don't want to be on Twitter. |
| 11:42 | <hendry> | damn, I swear this used to work in Opera http://dabase.com/wf2/ |
| 11:48 | <hendry> | i take it <button type="add" template="row">Add Row</button> functionality has been removed? having trouble finding it in the spec. |
| 11:49 | <AryehGregor> | Yes, that was killed at some point. |
| 11:49 | <AryehGregor> | Before I was following HTML5, I think. |
| 11:49 | <gsnedders> | We removed a bunch of things from WF2 that were dropped, so entirely possible |
| 11:54 | <hendry> | ok, thanks AryehGregor & gsnedders |
| 13:15 | <Slaanesh> | This is probably not the site you are looking for! |
| 13:15 | <Slaanesh> | You attempted to reach www.twitter.com, but instead you actually reached a server identifying itself as twitter.com. |
| 13:15 | <Slaanesh> | How useful |
| 17:53 | <zcorpan_> | "We need also to contact browser vendors and see if they are willing |
| 17:53 | <zcorpan_> | to sit round a table & get conformance/semantics pinned down in a |
| 17:53 | <zcorpan_> | future edition." http://www.w3.org/mid/9B2DE9094C827E44988F5ADAA6A2C5DA50C56E⊙Hppc |
| 17:53 | <zcorpan_> | sigh |
| 17:54 | <zcorpan_> | one and half a year ago, i joined the xml core wg hoping to get conformance/semantics pinned down |
| 17:55 | <zcorpan_> | the wg consensus was that there should be no conformance requirements at all |
| 18:14 | <annevk> | wow |
| 18:14 | <annevk> | various unkind words come to mind |
| 18:18 | <hsivonen> | wll, that xml core email isn't nice |
| 18:18 | <hsivonen> | *well |
| 18:35 | zcorpan_ | replied |
| 19:18 | <JonathanNeal> | wtf guys, http://sandbox.thewikies.com/wtf/clear-after.html |
| 19:18 | <JonathanNeal> | :) |
| 19:18 | <JonathanNeal> | Anyone else seeing this in FF? |
| 19:54 | <AryehGregor> | Seeing what? |
| 19:56 | <AryehGregor> | Unexpected space at the top? |
| 19:56 | <AryehGregor> | Hmm, pretty sure I've seen that bug before. |
| 19:58 | <AryehGregor> | https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=451791 |
| 20:12 | <JonathanNeal> | AryehGregor, yea seems familiar. The whole way content flows is wack. |
| 22:08 | zcorpan_ | finds that firefox stringifies null to '' in websocket.send(null) |
| 22:14 | llrcombs | hates that [X] button placement |
| 23:42 | <zcorpan_> | hmm, if the opening handshake has content-length, do the 8 bytes still fulfill their intended purpose? |
| 23:42 | <zcorpan_> | or should we just drop key3 altogether |