| 00:24 | <webben> | hsivonen: Of course - by nature, any usage of DE is theoretical until actually implemented, no? |
| 01:18 | <vbulant> | caues |
| 08:32 | <hsivonen_> | webben: well, maybe we shouldn't cater for theoretical extension ahead of time in abstract architectures and should instead cross bridges as we get to them |
| 08:33 | <annevk> | I don't think that is still a maybe |
| 08:52 | <hsivonen> | looks like bluegriffon tries to be polyglot |
| 08:52 | <hsivonen> | a bit too much, even: there's an XML decl |
| 08:59 | <annevk> | jgraham_, the DOMImplementation-createDocument.html test gives very weird results |
| 08:59 | <hsivonen> | I wonder if the Super Friends have opinions on http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10589 |
| 08:59 | <annevk> | jgraham_, "assert_throws: |
| 08:59 | <annevk> | function() { document.implementation.createDocument(namespaceURI, qualifiedName, doctype) } threw with code INVALID_CHARACTER_ERR (5) expected INVALID_CHARACTER_ERR (5)" |
| 09:14 | <annevk> | does the end of an SRT timestamp really look like "SS:,FFF"? |
| 09:14 | <annevk> | or "SS:.FFF" |
| 09:16 | <annevk> | looks like a bug in the spec |
| 09:17 | <annevk> | http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10607 |
| 09:26 | <annevk> | jgraham_, more interesting is that in Chrome this problem does not occur |
| 09:34 | <annevk> | oh yeah, the WebKit way of omitting DOM arguments is not very great |
| 09:35 | <annevk> | e.g. by createDocument it will give you a root element of "undefined" |
| 10:04 | <annevk> | does IE have isSupported on Node? |
| 10:04 | <annevk> | http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%3Cscript%3E%20w(%22isSupported%22%20in%20document)%20%3C%2Fscript%3E |
| 10:04 | <annevk> | true / false? |
| 10:05 | <hsivonen> | annevk: true in IE9 PP4 |
| 10:06 | <hsivonen> | or at least I think I have PP4 |
| 10:06 | hsivonen | wishes the PPs had nicer version numbers |
| 10:06 | <annevk> | bah |
| 10:06 | <annevk> | but thanks |
| 10:06 | <hsivonen> | annevk: were you hoping to zap that feature? |
| 10:06 | <annevk> | yes |
| 10:07 | <annevk> | it's no different from document.implementation.hasFeature as far as I can tell |
| 10:07 | <annevk> | which makes it a fairly stupid addition of DOM3Core |
| 10:09 | <annevk> | there's lots of features I'd really like to zap |
| 10:10 | <annevk> | the draft has a whole list at the end already of features marked historical that have not been implemented everywhere and are fairly close to useless |
| 10:10 | <othermaciej> | you should still zap it if it is unused |
| 10:11 | <annevk> | agreed, but that is hard to determine |
| 10:11 | <annevk> | but it seems somewhat unlikely that people use this one |
| 10:12 | <hsivonen> | kinda sad that XOM that's supposed to be a DOM replacement that doesn't suck has indexed child access instead of firstChild/nextSibling links |
| 10:12 | <hsivonen> | now that we've learned on the browser side that indexed children are worse |
| 10:13 | hsivonen | keeps a cache of table index in the XOM tree builder to make foster parenting have better performance characteristics |
| 10:14 | <annevk> | codesearch yields one somewhat relevant result, but that script adding support for the method via prototyping, and it doesn't actually use it... |
| 10:15 | <hsivonen> | didn't the IE team say they prioritized DOM additions based on use in the wild? |
| 10:15 | <annevk> | maybe they also implemented additions that were easy? |
| 10:16 | <annevk> | no idea really |
| 10:16 | <annevk> | hopefully they come to TPAC |
| 10:16 | <annevk> | cause mailing list communication... |
| 10:16 | <hsivonen> | fwiw, your test doesn't work in IE8 |
| 10:17 | <hsivonen> | fails before logging anything |
| 10:17 | <hsivonen> | s/anything/true or false/ |
| 10:18 | <annevk> | weird |
| 10:18 | <annevk> | oh, maybe that is their "security feature" |
| 10:18 | <hsivonen> | annevk: two errors: |
| 10:18 | <hsivonen> | Function expected |
| 10:19 | <hsivonen> | Object doesn't support this property or method |
| 10:19 | <annevk> | MSDN doesn't list it |
| 10:20 | <annevk> | I guess that is sufficient |
| 10:20 | <othermaciej> | hsivonen: what is worst of all is supporting both indexed and previous/next |
| 10:21 | <othermaciej> | (though I suppose indexed is almost inevitably poor in the face of remove/insert) |
| 10:21 | <hsivonen> | XOM: http://pastebin.mozilla.org/788007 |
| 10:22 | <hsivonen> | DOM: http://pastebin.mozilla.org/788008 |
| 10:22 | <othermaciej> | you have to reverse-engineer previous/next, eh? |
| 10:23 | <hsivonen> | well, I have to emulate them by first searching the node's index in the parent |
| 10:23 | <othermaciej> | I kinda wish the DOM didn't have indexed access at all (which it does via childNodes) |
| 10:23 | <othermaciej> | then the fundamental accessors and mutators could all be O(1) in all cases |
| 10:24 | <hsivonen> | also, JavaScript FTW for not having to do all this casting |
| 10:29 | <annevk> | that code looks terrible |
| 10:48 | <hsivonen> | well. this isn't nice. I've updated GWT at some point and now the GWT Single Script Linker refuses to link the JS version of the parser |
| 10:50 | <hsivonen> | boo. and the GWT development mode plug-in would require downgrading to Firefox 3.5 |
| 10:57 | <hsivonen> | I don't like it at all that GWT wants to default to generating browser-specific alternative scripts instead of generating a single-script with built-in feature sniffing |
| 10:59 | hsivonen | leaves the GWT build broken and code untested and moves on with making Firefox better |
| 11:37 | <annevk> | I wonder why Google News thinks that Koran burning has anything to do with either Science or Technology |
| 11:37 | <annevk> | is that a US thing? |
| 11:39 | <othermaciej> | no, Google News is confused |
| 11:39 | <annevk> | j/k ;) |
| 11:40 | <hsivonen> | jgraham_: have you figured out if the Ubuntu jumpiness since August is a reported and known problem? |
| 12:28 | <webben> | hsivonen: Maybe. I wasn't arguing for DE. I was providing hober with examples of how it might be used. |
| 13:49 | <annevk> | so per http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-3-Core/core.html DOMTimeStamp should have been Date in ECMAScript bindings |
| 13:49 | <annevk> | but that never got implemented that way :/ |
| 13:50 | <annevk> | in any event, it seems that should move to Web IDL just like DOMString |
| 13:50 | <annevk> | should just name those string and timestamp really, but I guess people do not want a largescale s&r |
| 13:55 | <MikeSmith> | about http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-text/#white-space-rules |
| 13:56 | <MikeSmith> | "A tab (U+0009) is rendered as a horizontal shift that lines up the start edge of the next glyph with the next tab stop. Tab stops occur at points that are multiples of 8 times the width of a space (U+0020) rendered in the block's font from the block's starting content edge." |
| 13:56 | <annevk> | hey mike |
| 13:56 | <MikeSmith> | do any browsers actually do that |
| 13:56 | <MikeSmith> | annevk: hey |
| 13:56 | <annevk> | filing some Web IDL bugs I wonder if they should maybe be emailed to public-script-coord as well |
| 13:56 | <MikeSmith> | yes |
| 13:56 | <MikeSmith> | would be a good idea |
| 13:57 | <annevk> | i think for white-space:pre tabs might be rendered, yes |
| 13:57 | <annevk> | that is why some browsers have this proprietary (prefixed) tab-size property |
| 13:57 | <annevk> | e.g. -o-tab-size |
| 13:57 | <MikeSmith> | oh yeah |
| 13:57 | <MikeSmith> | that works |
| 13:58 | <MikeSmith> | but white-space-collapse does not |
| 13:58 | <MikeSmith> | that's what I get for reading specs |
| 13:59 | <annevk> | oh, white-space-collapse is some new stuff that nobody does |
| 13:59 | <MikeSmith> | I see |
| 13:59 | <annevk> | kind of wondering why that is being added now |
| 14:01 | <MikeSmith> | heh, ES5 spec has the typo "hyphon" |
| 14:01 | <MikeSmith> | cute |
| 14:02 | <MikeSmith> | jacobolus: hey, I used some page of yours the other day that I seem to remember finding extremely useful |
| 14:02 | <MikeSmith> | but at the moment I cant remember what page it was |
| 14:03 | <MikeSmith> | ah |
| 14:03 | <MikeSmith> | jacobolus: ah, the pages you have about customizing Cocoa config |
| 14:03 | <jacobolus> | MikeSmith: hey, what's up? |
| 14:04 | <jacobolus> | MikeSmith: this one? http://www.hcs.harvard.edu/~jrus/site/cocoa-text.html |
| 14:04 | <MikeSmith> | yeah, and this: http://www.hcs.harvard.edu/~jrus/Site/Cocoa%20Text%20System.html |
| 14:04 | <jacobolus> | MikeSmith: that's a hard link to the same file :) |
| 14:04 | <MikeSmith> | ah |
| 14:05 | <MikeSmith> | anyway, very useful info |
| 14:06 | <jacobolus> | thx |
| 14:06 | <jacobolus> | let me know if anything is confusing, &c. |
| 14:07 | <MikeSmith> | I think I got everything figured out from that now |
| 14:07 | <MikeSmith> | re-bound my ^y key to cycle through kill ring |
| 14:07 | <jacobolus> | MikeSmith: btw, these might be useful too http://www.hcs.harvard.edu/~jrus/site/selectors.html and http://www.hcs.harvard.edu/~jrus/site/system-bindings.html |
| 14:08 | <MikeSmith> | thanks! |
| 14:08 | <MikeSmith> | handn't seen those yet |
| 14:09 | <MikeSmith> | I did also add a ^W binding to deleteWordBackward already |
| 14:10 | <MikeSmith> | <manusporny> Ha! The vim editor gets HTML5+RDFa and Microdata support: http://ht.ly/2CXH5 /via @cwaring #rdfa #microdata |
| 14:10 | <MikeSmith> | that's pretty cool |
| 14:11 | <MikeSmith> | adds autocomplete of attribute names |
| 14:11 | <henrikbjorn> | when i launch vim it shows some errors that is removed but the editor finishing loading, is there some place where does get logged ? |
| 14:11 | <jacobolus> | I set it up so that move up down left right is ⌃i ⌃k ⌃l ⌃j and forward/backward by a word is ⌃o ⌃u and to beginning/end of line is ⌃h ⌃; |
| 14:11 | <MikeSmith> | oh, http://github.com/othree/html5.vim says it has ARIA support also |
| 14:12 | <hsivonen> | how odd. a tree builder bugfix I made and that works in Java seems to have regressed a tokenizer behavior on the C++ side |
| 14:12 | <MikeSmith> | jacobolus: oh, those sound good.. Ive been using the default control-option combos, which are a PITA to hit, especially on my Japanese laptop keyboard |
| 14:13 | <jacobolus> | yeah. I don't like moving my hand down to the arrow keys |
| 14:13 | <jacobolus> | and the "emacsish" ⌃a ⌃e &c. are not intuitive |
| 14:14 | <MikeSmith> | I guess I'm used to those from shell |
| 14:15 | <MikeSmith> | but in shell I use esc combos for word movements |
| 14:16 | <MikeSmith> | e.g, esc than b, esc than f |
| 14:17 | <MikeSmith> | henrikbjorn: :messages maybe? |
| 14:17 | <MikeSmith> | hmm, no |
| 14:18 | <henrikbjorn> | nope nothing is happening |
| 14:18 | <MikeSmith> | yeah, that was just guess |
| 14:18 | <henrikbjorn> | okay :) |
| 14:19 | <MikeSmith> | hmm, docs says that should work |
| 14:19 | <MikeSmith> | that and :echo errmsg |
| 14:19 | <henrikbjorn> | nope nothing :S |
| 14:20 | <MikeSmith> | darn |
| 14:25 | <MikeSmith> | kennyluck: do you know who this is? http://blog.othree.net/ |
| 14:25 | <kennyluck> | MikeSmith: A Taiwanese folk I know. Why? |
| 14:30 | <MikeSmith> | kennyluck: dude has developed some HTML5-related software |
| 14:31 | <MikeSmith> | http://github.com/othree/html5.vim |
| 14:32 | <kennyluck> | MikeSmith: Oh, he's a Web Developer. :) |
| 14:33 | <MikeSmith> | kennyluck: hey, btw, about wu wei, you use 無為 in Taiwanese, right? (just like the Japanese word) |
| 14:33 | <kennyluck> | This is something I don't know why. But most of Taiwanese programmers prefer vim over emacs. |
| 14:33 | <kennyluck> | Yes. (I actullay don't know this term appears in Japan) |
| 14:33 | <annevk> | MikeSmith, othree is on this channel |
| 14:33 | <MikeSmith> | instead of 无为 I mean |
| 14:33 | <MikeSmith> | oh |
| 14:34 | <MikeSmith> | othree: thanks for vim stuff |
| 14:34 | <kennyluck> | Do we have a emacs html5 already BTW? :) |
| 14:35 | <kennyluck> | mode, I mean. |
| 14:35 | <kennyluck> | http://github.com/hober/html5-el |
| 14:35 | <kennyluck> | found it. Cool. |
| 14:36 | <hsivonen> | isn't that for XHTML5, though? |
| 14:36 | <MikeSmith> | yeah |
| 14:36 | <MikeSmith> | uses an XML parser |
| 14:36 | <MikeSmith> | but it still is great |
| 14:36 | <kennyluck> | Huh. I see. It does have nxml-mode dependency. |
| 14:37 | <MikeSmith> | we should make an nxml-mode for vim |
| 14:37 | <hsivonen> | we should make an incremental HTML5 parser for emacs |
| 14:37 | <MikeSmith> | yeah |
| 14:38 | <MikeSmith> | could maybe use James's nxml code as a starting point |
| 14:38 | <MikeSmith> | his parser code |
| 14:38 | <MikeSmith> | just have to learn emacs lisp |
| 14:39 | <MikeSmith> | your IQ will skyrocket if you learn lisp, I heard |
| 15:06 | <hsivonen> | Has Chrome 6 gone out of beta yet? |
| 15:06 | <hsivonen> | and Chrome 7 has already branched? |
| 15:08 | <annevk> | didn't they want to release every six weeks? |
| 15:08 | <annevk> | actually, I think Chrome 6 might be out |
| 15:08 | <hsivonen> | oh |
| 15:08 | <annevk> | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Chrome#Release_history |
| 15:08 | <hsivonen> | I was wondering if they have two releases that have branched but haven't gone final |
| 15:10 | <hsivonen> | *sigh* at the "Standards" section of the wikipedia article |
| 15:11 | <annevk> | i was just reading that |
| 15:11 | <evanchooly> | 1 |
| 15:12 | <hsivonen> | the "Standards" section for Firefox has this wonderful bit: "Firefox also implements[74] a proprietary protocol[92] from Google called "safebrowsing" (used to exchange data related with "phishing and malware protection"), which is not an open standard." |
| 15:13 | <annevk> | so they call out safebrowsing but not XUL, XBL, XPCOM, etc? |
| 15:22 | <Rik`_> | annevk: btw, @list is now filtering the propositions based on input |
| 15:23 | <annevk> | Ms2ger, hey, welcome back |
| 15:23 | <Ms2ger> | Thanks :) |
| 15:24 | <annevk> | I made a bunch of changes while you were gone, maybe you can review them |
| 15:25 | <annevk> | I was also wondering if we should file bugs on browser vendors to implement some of the changes to see if such a thing gains any traction |
| 15:25 | <hsivonen> | Ms2ger: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2010JulSep/0703.html |
| 15:25 | <Ms2ger> | I'll look at them and reply to your email after I skimmed through the rest of my inbox |
| 15:26 | <annevk> | e.g. removing xmlVersion, isSupported, etc. |
| 15:26 | <annevk> | Ms2ger, great |
| 15:26 | <annevk> | Ms2ger, hsivonen, regarding DOM Range, Hixie also suggested moving Selection there |
| 15:26 | annevk | goes off to do some shopping |
| 15:26 | <Ms2ger> | annevk, I saw that too :) |
| 15:27 | <Ms2ger> | And hsivonen, I was watching that bug |
| 15:37 | <hsivonen> | Ms2ger: cool |
| 15:44 | <Ms2ger> | Oh, fun, Shelby Moore in my bugmail |
| 15:45 | <erlehmann> | HTTP needs a status code for "not here yet" |
| 15:45 | <erlehmann> | (I am on a slow connection and have 333MB of PDFs to upload.) |
| 15:49 | <hsivonen> | Ms2ger: which bug tracker? |
| 15:49 | <Ms2ger> | Mozilla |
| 15:50 | <Ms2ger> | https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=156388 |
| 18:44 | <AryehGregor> | http://www.aregooglesbouncingballshtml5.com/ |
| 18:46 | <aho> | balls! |
| 18:54 | <erlehmann> | balls are touching! |
| 18:55 | <aho> | :v |
| 19:22 | <AryehGregor> | Why does this display with no shadow in a Firefox nightly? data:image/svg+xml,<!DOCTYPE svg PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD SVG 1.1//EN" "http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/1.1/DTD/svg11.dtd"><svg xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg"><defs><filter id="Gaussian_Blur"><feGaussianBlur in="SourceGraphic" stdDeviation="5"/></filter></defs><rect x="20" y="20" width="100" height="100" style="fill:black;filter:url(#Gaussian_Blur)"/></svg> |
| 19:25 | Ms2ger | was wondering the same thing |
| 19:26 | <AryehGregor> | Same in 3.6. |
| 19:29 | <aho> | saving this as svg, however, works: <svg xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg"><defs><filter id="Gaussian_Blur"><feGaussianBlur in="SourceGraphic" stdDeviation="5"/></filter></defs><rect x="20" y="20" width="100" height="100" style="fill:black;filter:url(#Gaussian_Blur)"/></svg> |
| 19:30 | <aho> | same thing prefixed with "data:image/svg+xml," does not work |
| 19:30 | <aho> | odd |
| 19:31 | <aho> | also doesnt work with ff4b6 |
| 19:32 | <aho> | works with chrome, parsing error with opera *shrug* |
| 19:35 | <annevk> | Ms2ger, not sure the File API exceptions will stay |
| 19:35 | <annevk> | Ms2ger, that's why I did not add them |
| 19:36 | <Ms2ger> | Sure, but I'd like the list to stay in sync with HTML5 |
| 19:37 | <annevk> | hmm, the dependency really should be the other way around, but ok, it'll be fixed eventually |
| 19:39 | <Ms2ger> | Yes, but until then we shouldn't have conflicting requirements |
| 19:43 | <hsivonen> | aho: no fragment id in data URLs |
| 19:44 | <aho> | ah |
| 23:19 | <hober> | hsivonen: re: emacs comment earlier, I've started work on one |
| 23:19 | <hober> | (an html parser in elisp that impls the html5 algorithm) |
| 23:20 | <hober> | it's nowhere near usable; I'll let you know when it gets to the point where it's worth looking at |
| 23:39 | <jgraham> | hober: Awesome |
| 23:39 | <jgraham> | hsivonen: No |
| 23:40 | <jgraham> | anne: (for the logs) the test cndition is just wrong. I will check in a fix at some point |
| 23:40 | <jgraham> | (i.e. the way that assert_throws determines pass/failiure in that case) |