| 01:07 | <GPHemsley> | hsivonen: Hey, your validator sploded on me |
| 01:08 | <GPHemsley> | "Internal Error: Oops. That was not supposed to happen. A bug manifested itself in the application internals. Unable to continue. Sorry. The admin was notified." |
| 01:34 | <MikeSmith> | well, that's weird |
| 01:34 | <MikeSmith> | the "html5" twitter account quit working around end of September |
| 01:34 | <Hixie> | wohay, someone finally noticed! |
| 01:34 | <MikeSmith> | because I do not have it set up to do Oauth |
| 01:35 | <Hixie> | you are the first person to notice |
| 01:35 | <MikeSmith> | well, I noticed |
| 01:35 | <Hixie> | well, second |
| 01:35 | <Hixie> | i noticed when it broke |
| 01:35 | <Hixie> | (it=the whatwg twitter stuff) |
| 01:35 | <Hixie> | and didn't do anything about it because nobody complained |
| 01:35 | <MikeSmith> | Hixie: yeah I mean the "html5" one -- I guess the whatwg one is the same thing |
| 01:35 | <Hixie> | yup |
| 01:36 | <Hixie> | i took it as a sign that twitter was pointless |
| 01:36 | <MikeSmith> | I think I actually just copied your script when I set up the "html5" one |
| 01:36 | <MikeSmith> | heh |
| 01:36 | <MikeSmith> | amen |
| 01:36 | <MikeSmith> | for this kind of stuff at least |
| 01:36 | <Hixie> | all i've ever seen on twitter is people bitching |
| 01:37 | <MikeSmith> | twitter is now my means for exploring languages I don't speak |
| 01:37 | <MikeSmith> | it's useful for that at least |
| 01:37 | <MikeSmith> | and I've switched to only tweeting in languages that I don't actually speak nor understand well yet |
| 01:37 | <Hixie> | heh |
| 01:38 | Philip` | encountered http://twitlonger.com/ today, which seems quite absurd |
| 01:38 | <MikeSmith> | I figure, if I'm going to tweet, I might as well learn a little about it each tiem |
| 01:38 | <MikeSmith> | Hixie: anyway, what I was saying was weird was that an "html5" tweet did just get posted |
| 01:39 | <MikeSmith> | in spite of me doing nothing to "fix" the no-oauth "problem" |
| 01:39 | <MikeSmith> | http://twitter.com/#!/html5/status/28355466520 |
| 01:39 | <Hixie> | um |
| 01:39 | <Hixie> | odd |
| 01:39 | <MikeSmith> | so, I don't know why that one went through |
| 01:39 | <MikeSmith> | not that I care so much |
| 01:39 | <MikeSmith> | just… odd |
| 01:39 | <Hixie> | o_O |
| 01:39 | <Hixie> | that _is_ odd |
| 01:40 | <MikeSmith> | Philip`: the better way to twit longer is to use Chinese |
| 01:41 | <MikeSmith> | maybe you heard me say this already, but if you tweet in English, it takes 2.5 to 3 times as much characters as when you tweet in Chinese |
| 01:41 | <Hixie> | the better way to tweet longer is to use buzz |
| 01:42 | <MikeSmith> | what's buzz? :) |
| 01:43 | <MikeSmith> | Philip`: what does http://www.twitlonger.com/ actually do? |
| 01:43 | <MikeSmith> | posts multiple tweets in serial? |
| 01:44 | <Philip`> | It posts the first n characters of your message and then a link to a page that has the rest of it |
| 01:46 | <MikeSmith> | ah |
| 01:47 | <MikeSmith> | well, big whoop |
| 01:47 | <MikeSmith> | site should then be called "howtotwitlongerforthetotallyclueless" |
| 01:47 | <MikeSmith> | or something |
| 01:47 | <MikeSmith> | but I guess that was your point |
| 01:48 | <MikeSmith> | absure |
| 01:48 | <MikeSmith> | absurd |
| 01:48 | <MikeSmith> | dammit |
| 01:48 | Philip` | always bears in mind the words of our now Prime Minister, "The trouble with Twitter, the instantness of it - too many twits might make a twat." |
| 01:48 | <MikeSmith> | I almost always type "absure" instead of "absurd" |
| 01:48 | <MikeSmith> | heh |
| 01:48 | <MikeSmith> | did dude really say that?! |
| 01:48 | <MikeSmith> | that is gold |
| 01:49 | <Philip`> | http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8176194.stm |
| 01:51 | <MikeSmith> | absurd is "hurt" in Welsh |
| 01:52 | <MikeSmith> | järjetön |
| 01:52 | <MikeSmith> | in Finnish |
| 01:52 | <MikeSmith> | which doesn't quite meet my "easier to type" requirement |
| 01:53 | <MikeSmith> | there's no really good recognizable cognate for "absurd" |
| 01:53 | <MikeSmith> | except for "absurd" that is i |
| 01:54 | <MikeSmith> | most European languages just seem to have some variation of "absurd" or "absurd" itself |
| 01:54 | <MikeSmith> | I guess because it came from Latin |
| 01:55 | <MikeSmith> | RIDICULARIUS |
| 01:55 | <MikeSmith> | now, that's a great word |
| 01:55 | <MikeSmith> | way better than just plan "ridiculous" |
| 02:00 | <MikeSmith> | "surreal" is "swrrealaidd" in Welsh |
| 02:00 | <MikeSmith> | even _looks_ surreal |
| 02:00 | <MikeSmith> | Welsh is a trip |
| 02:03 | <MikeSmith> | Google Translate gives "epätodellinen" for Finnish translation of "surreal" |
| 02:03 | <MikeSmith> | which actually seems to be more like "unreal" |
| 02:03 | <MikeSmith> | http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ep%C3%A4todellinen |
| 02:03 | <MikeSmith> | epä- + todellinen |
| 02:04 | <MikeSmith> | epä- = "un-" |
| 02:07 | MikeSmith | wonders if gsnedders speaks Scottish Gaelic at all |
| 02:08 | <MikeSmith> | Wiktionary is a great source for examining translations for single words |
| 02:08 | <MikeSmith> | e.g., http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/surreal |
| 02:09 | <MikeSmith> | but you need to set the Visibility > Show translations option |
| 02:10 | <MikeSmith> | http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/os-fh%C3%ACreach#Scottish_Gaelic |
| 02:10 | <MikeSmith> | os-fhìreach = surreal |
| 02:11 | MikeSmith | shuts up because he realizes that the odds of anybody else here caring to hear about this here are close to nil |
| 03:07 | <robman> | afternoon all |
| 03:09 | <MikeSmith> | hey robman |
| 03:09 | <MikeSmith> | how's the weather in Australia? |
| 03:09 | MikeSmith | misses it already |
| 03:09 | <robman> | sunny and hot |
| 03:09 | <MikeSmith> | nice |
| 03:09 | <robman> | you back in japan? |
| 03:09 | <MikeSmith> | yup |
| 03:09 | <robman> | noice |
| 03:09 | <MikeSmith> | at home but heading out for lunch soon |
| 03:10 | <MikeSmith> | with a friend here who works for Mozilla |
| 03:10 | <robman> | yum...have fun |
| 03:10 | <MikeSmith> | so I got to schlep off to the other side of town |
| 03:10 | <MikeSmith> | I wish they'd move their office somewhere more convenient for me :) |
| 03:11 | <robman> | schlep is a word that's appearing in my life more and more nowadays |
| 03:11 | <MikeSmith> | heh |
| 03:11 | <MikeSmith> | well, that sounds bad |
| 03:12 | <robman> | i was lugging way too many laptops and a tripod all over Seoul - I feel shorter now |
| 03:12 | <MikeSmith> | ah yeah |
| 03:12 | <MikeSmith> | how did that meeting go, btw? |
| 03:12 | <MikeSmith> | the AR thing, right? |
| 03:12 | <robman> | really productive |
| 03:12 | <robman> | yah |
| 03:12 | <robman> | very intereting bunch of people |
| 03:12 | <MikeSmith> | ETRI people were there? |
| 03:12 | <robman> | yos |
| 03:12 | <robman> | and ogc |
| 03:13 | <MikeSmith> | great |
| 03:13 | <robman> | and khronos |
| 03:13 | <robman> | etc |
| 03:13 | <MikeSmith> | oh |
| 03:13 | <MikeSmith> | Khronos is a big plus for sure |
| 03:13 | <robman> | Neil was awesome...he really listened and engaged |
| 03:13 | <MikeSmith> | great |
| 03:13 | <robman> | wants to evangelise a common time system across all sensor related things to the khronos members |
| 03:13 | <robman> | would be great for sensor fusion/etc |
| 03:14 | <MikeSmith> | interesting |
| 03:14 | <MikeSmith> | did WebGL come up at all? |
| 03:14 | <robman> | aboslutely |
| 03:14 | <MikeSmith> | neat |
| 03:14 | <MikeSmith> | minutes available anywhere yet? |
| 03:14 | <robman> | and he's really keen to work with the w3c folks on improving the composition model |
| 03:14 | <robman> | yeah...holon |
| 03:15 | <MikeSmith> | what would "improving the composition model" mean in practice, I wonder? |
| 03:15 | <robman> | general notes here http://www.perey.com/ARStandardsMeetingOutputs.html and his notes here http://www.perey.com/ARStandards/Khronos_Standards_for_Mobile_AR.pdf |
| 03:15 | MikeSmith | takes a gander |
| 03:17 | <robman> | MikeSmith when you get a chance please checkout this too http://www.slideshare.net/robman/patterns-of-interest-iswar-seoul-2010 |
| 03:17 | <MikeSmith> | will do |
| 03:17 | <robman> | i'd especially like to discuss slides 18-20 with you 8) |
| 03:17 | <MikeSmith> | hai |
| 03:18 | <MikeSmith> | man |
| 03:18 | <MikeSmith> | this whole presentation looks pretty interesting actually |
| 03:18 | <robman> | aw shux |
| 03:19 | <MikeSmith> | I have personally been away from this stuff for a while |
| 03:19 | <MikeSmith> | professionally I mean |
| 03:19 | <MikeSmith> | I don't remember if I told you that before W3C I did work mostly for the mobile market |
| 03:19 | <MikeSmith> | product dev |
| 03:19 | <MikeSmith> | backend stuff |
| 03:19 | <MikeSmith> | and client stuff |
| 03:19 | <MikeSmith> | also |
| 03:19 | <robman> | cool |
| 03:20 | <robman> | i gotta run to a meeting...have a great lunch and lets chat later |
| 03:20 | <robman> | boi |
| 03:20 | <MikeSmith> | in your slides, what are "triggers"? |
| 03:21 | <MikeSmith> | eh? |
| 03:21 | <MikeSmith> | I don't know "boi" either |
| 03:21 | <MikeSmith> | acronym? |
| 03:22 | <robman> | sorry...that was bye |
| 03:22 | <robman> | 8) |
| 03:22 | <robman> | ill bbak later |
| 03:23 | <MikeSmith> | k |
| 03:23 | <MikeSmith> | I gotta go soon too |
| 03:24 | <MikeSmith> | but wanted to say you might want to consider coming to the Internet of Things conference in Tokyo at the end of November |
| 03:24 | <MikeSmith> | I helped out with review of some papers for that |
| 03:25 | karlcow | wishes he could go to this conf, but can't go out of Canada before Jan |
| 03:25 | <MikeSmith> | too bad for you karlcow |
| 03:25 | <MikeSmith> | I hope you learned your lesson |
| 03:25 | <karlcow> | living in Japan too long? :p |
| 03:26 | <MikeSmith> | I meant how you tried to smuggle your crack pipe through customs |
| 03:27 | <karlcow> | hehe. himitsu |
| 04:47 | <wirepair> | i am amazed at how many parsers insecurely handle external xml entities |
| 04:47 | wirepair | just found *another* bug in an RSS reader... |
| 08:46 | <zcorpan> | Hixie: maybe ie's way of dealing with <meta http-equiv=x-ua-compatible> is screwing you over in your navigation tests? |
| 09:05 | <Hixie> | zcorpan: how so? |
| 09:06 | <Hixie> | i mean, i don't have it set |
| 09:07 | <Hixie> | and i don't see why what i'm testing would be relevant to that |
| 09:07 | <Hixie> | surely it'll be the same in all the modes... |
| 09:09 | <zcorpan> | Hixie: i don't know how it works, but maybe ie is first parsing looking for the meta, and then reparsing if it didn't find one |
| 09:10 | <Hixie> | i doubt it, that'd be a perf nightmare |
| 09:10 | <Hixie> | also the timings don't fit that hypothesis (some of the tests have timestamps) |
| 09:11 | <zcorpan> | ok |
| 09:12 | <zcorpan> | (iirc ie reparses when turning on designMode, which is also perf nightmare but doesn't happen as often) |
| 09:26 | <zcorpan> | https://developer.mozilla.org/en/JavaScript_typed_arrays - does gecko support binary messages in websockets? |
| 09:29 | <annevk> | I don't think so |
| 09:36 | <zcorpan> | http://yfrog.com/f/2fejgrj/ |
| 09:37 | <annevk> | old news |
| 09:37 | <annevk> | but still funny |
| 09:47 | <annevk> | jgraham, btw, I meant "WHATTF" last night |
| 09:47 | <annevk> | not sure about action man and bureaucracy man, but that sounds fun too :) |
| 09:48 | <annevk> | also, another day, still not published |
| 09:49 | <annevk> | Mike is still flying around? |
| 09:49 | <jgraham> | That's superman |
| 09:50 | <jgraham> | Although I guess Mike might hve an alter-ego |
| 09:50 | <jgraham> | Would explain a lot |
| 09:51 | <zcorpan> | xml-stylesheet will be published 28th |
| 09:52 | <annevk> | as REC? |
| 09:52 | <zcorpan> | yeah |
| 09:52 | <zcorpan> | my first REC :) |
| 09:52 | <annevk> | with how many conforming implementations? |
| 09:53 | <zcorpan> | dunno |
| 09:53 | <annevk> | congrats anyway |
| 09:53 | <annevk> | I don't have any RECs |
| 09:56 | <zcorpan> | hmm validator.nu still doesn't validate xml-stylesheet |
| 09:59 | <zcorpan> | hsivonen: ^ |
| 10:07 | <zcorpan> | seems like all tests in http://simon.html5.org/test/xml/xml-stylesheet/parsing/ give bogus errors in validator.nu |
| 10:14 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: hmm. I wonder if MikeSmith landed the code... |
| 10:14 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: the code is there |
| 10:17 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: looks like the XML parser is doing something very bogus |
| 10:19 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: I'm sorry. this XML parser is very, very sad |
| 10:20 | <hsivonen> | some day, I should write my own XML parser, with enough 5 |
| 10:21 | <zcorpan> | did you switch xml parser at some point? it worked when mike was implementing xml-stylesheet |
| 10:21 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: no, I think I haven't changed anything about the XML parser |
| 10:22 | <zcorpan> | ok. weird |
| 10:24 | <hsivonen> | whoa. "unless you cannot accept LGPL in your environment" |
| 10:25 | <hsivonen> | why on earth do the subclipse developers bother to maintain installation options for people who aren't OK with LGPL? |
| 10:28 | <hsivonen> | whoa! I just saw a signed Eclipse plug-in for the first time. Seemed to be a self-signed cert, though. |
| 10:30 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: I haven't touched the XML parser since April 2009 |
| 10:38 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: are you sure you've tested without the XML declaration before? |
| 10:38 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: the parser seems to be bogus |
| 10:39 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: if the first four bytes are <?xm, it expects it to be the start of an XML declaration and it expect the XML declaration to be within the first 64 bytes |
| 10:39 | <hsivonen> | both expectations are thoroughly bogus, of course |
| 10:41 | <zcorpan> | hsivonen: i'm pretty sure i tested without xml decl. but maybe mike's setup injected an xml decl or something |
| 11:02 | <annevk> | http://arewefastyet.com/ interesting |
| 11:02 | <annevk> | I wonder how Opera compares |
| 11:03 | <jgraham> | annevk: That seems quite simple to find out :) |
| 11:04 | jgraham | wonders how numbers inside the browser compare to standalone shell numbers |
| 11:18 | <annevk> | Hixie, http://tantek.com/2010/294/t7/html5-whatwg-stopped-twitter-required-oauth |
| 11:20 | <benschwarz> | Hixie: P.Irish asked me to log here. Hello :) |
| 11:33 | <zcorpan> | hsivonen: if i add an xml decl, i still don't get the xml-stylesheet pi validated (no errors for a bogus pi) |
| 11:34 | <zcorpan> | http://validator.nu/?doc=data%3Aapplication%2Fxml%2C%253C%253Fxml%2520version%253D%271.0%27%253F%253E%250D%250A%253C%253Fxml-stylesheet%2520xyz%253F%253E%250D%250A%253Chtml%2520xmlns%253D%27http%253A%252F%252Fwww.w3.org%252F1999%252Fxhtml%27%253E%250D%250A%253Chead%253E%250D%250A%253Ctitle%253E%253C%252Ftitle%253E%250D%250A%253C%252Fhead%253E%250D%250A%253Cbody%253E%250D%250A%253Cp%253E%253C%252Fp%253E%250D%250A%253C%252 |
| 11:34 | <zcorpan> | 252Fhtml%253E |
| 11:41 | <hsivonen> | wiki.whatwg.org times out for me |
| 11:41 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: I think the data: URL you pasted isn't complete |
| 11:42 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: (Can't contact the database server: Lost connection to MySQL server at 'reading initial communication packet', system error: 110 (database.wiki.whatwg.org)) |
| 11:42 | <zcorpan> | yeah, it got split to two messages |
| 11:58 | <annevk> | I wonder if there exists more of this stuff: http://www.aminutewithbrendan.com/pages/20101018 |
| 12:02 | <jgraham> | What stuff? |
| 12:03 | <annevk> | relatively short podcasts on browser stuff |
| 12:03 | <espadrine> | aminutewithbrendan is full of it |
| 12:03 | <espadrine> | (although it is javascript-oriented) |
| 12:03 | <annevk> | sure, I'm subscribed to that one and listen to most of it |
| 12:05 | <espadrine> | crockford has a series of talks going on, but we can't call them short |
| 12:25 | <jgraham> | So listening to those has given me an appreciation for one thing; if you set the volume on one <audio> element all other unplayed elements should start at the same volume by default. Or something |
| 12:26 | <jgraham> | A UI issue of course |
| 12:34 | <annevk> | and not necessarily true |
| 12:34 | <annevk> | as it depends on the stream |
| 12:36 | Philip` | would appreciate his browser not automaticall downloading many megabytes of data when loading the front page of that site, and instead waiting until he clicked 'play' on each <audio> |
| 12:37 | <Philip`> | s//y/ |
| 12:38 | <espadrine> | The volume of one stream should not modify that of other streams on the same page, but it would be quite useful to have the browser remember the volumes of each stream |
| 12:38 | <espadrine> | when we go back to that page later on. |
| 12:39 | <espadrine> | I mean, it could be localStorage-ed, but that's something we inherently want for all media elements. |
| 12:49 | <hsivonen> | this XML parser is full of sadness |
| 12:50 | <jgraham> | The problem is I start one, listen to it (at reduced volume) start another and have to reduce the volume again |
| 12:50 | <jgraham> | Changing my system volume affects other applications |
| 12:50 | <jgraham> | I could probably futz about with per-application volume controls but its a lot of complexity |
| 12:51 | <jgraham> | and, on the web, the intrinsic loudness of different sound clips seems highly likely to change between pages |
| 12:52 | <jgraham> | due to different recording and so on |
| 12:52 | <jgraham> | But might be more constant on a single page |
| 12:54 | <hsivonen> | this total bogosity of the XML parser with <?xml-stylesheet hasn't come to my attention before |
| 12:54 | <hsivonen> | I guess most people use the XML declaration |
| 13:00 | <Philip`> | jgraham: Seems like the OS's job to make per-application volume controls simple |
| 13:00 | <Philip`> | (I think Vista does that already) |
| 13:01 | <jgraham> | Philip`: In the case of the web it's not clear that will work, as I said |
| 13:01 | <jgraham> | In any case I probably want per-tab volume controls |
| 13:01 | <jgraham> | if we are doing it that way |
| 13:13 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: http://html5.validator.nu/?doc=http%3A%2F%2Fsimon.html5.org%2Ftest%2Fxml%2Fxml-stylesheet%2Fparsing%2F001.xml |
| 13:13 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: I hope the parser sucks less now when viewed as a black box. The source code got uglier. |
| 13:13 | <hsivonen> | It seems to me that when a piece of software is bad enough, patching it makes the code look even worse |
| 13:14 | <hsivonen> | Ælfred2 is so, so sad. Too bad it's not easy to notice on surface before it's too late. |
| 13:34 | <zcorpan> | hsivonen: cool, thanks |
| 13:36 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: thanks for reporting |
| 13:37 | <zcorpan> | hsivonen: now the Show Source feature is broken instead :) |
| 13:37 | <hsivonen> | aargh |
| 13:42 | <jgraham> | Dear lazyirc. I have a file with some lines in it. I want to provide each line of the file as the command line argument to a program. Is there some clever way to do that in the (bash) shell? |
| 13:42 | <jgraham> | So if the file looks like |
| 13:42 | <jgraham> | A |
| 13:42 | <jgraham> | B |
| 13:42 | <jgraham> | C |
| 13:42 | <jgraham> | I want to run |
| 13:42 | <jgraham> | foo A B C |
| 13:43 | <jgraham> | where foo is the executable |
| 13:46 | <jgraham> | Oh, maybe cat and backticks is enough if there are no special characters |
| 13:47 | <jgraham> | And xargs is needed otherwise |
| 13:52 | <Workshiva> | Backticks make me sad |
| 13:52 | <Workshiva> | $() all the way |
| 14:03 | <jgraham> | The shell makes me sad |
| 14:05 | <annevk> | Python |
| 14:29 | <annevk> | Pro tip: when disabling Bluetooth, do not disable wireless instead |
| 14:29 | <Philip`> | perl -ne'`program "$_"`' lines.txt |
| 14:32 | <Philip`> | Oh, I misread the question |
| 14:34 | <Philip`> | In that case I suppose it's more like perl -e'chomp(@_=<>); system("program", @_)' lines.txt which will incidentally handle special characters in the lines |
| 14:35 | <Philip`> | but that code doesn't use enough quote characters :-( |
| 14:35 | <Philip`> | (Not enough to be pleasantly confusing, at least) |
| 16:49 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen: about the issue that Simon mentioned, I am not injecting an xml declaration or anything like that |
| 16:50 | <MikeSmith> | but I can take a look later and see if i might be able to figure out what's wrong |
| 16:50 | <MikeSmith> | maybe I am otherwise just doing something stupid in that code |
| 16:50 | <MikeSmith> | wrong assumption or something |
| 16:50 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: your code isn't wrong |
| 16:50 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: the XML parser is wrong |
| 16:51 | <MikeSmith> | ok |
| 16:51 | <MikeSmith> | oh |
| 16:51 | <MikeSmith> | well, that's not good |
| 16:51 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: are you sure you and Simon didn't test a W3C instance that runs the perl preprocessor on the input? |
| 16:51 | <MikeSmith> | no |
| 16:51 | <MikeSmith> | definitely not |
| 16:52 | <hsivonen> | well, I don't have an explanation why you haven't seen this before |
| 16:52 | <MikeSmith> | whatever code I had running, it should still be running at http://www.w3.org/html/check |
| 16:52 | <hsivonen> | but the XML parser is definitely broken and has been unmodified for over a year |
| 16:52 | <MikeSmith> | I see |
| 16:52 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: your instance shows the same bug |
| 16:53 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: http://www.w3.org/html/check?doc=http%3A%2F%2Fsimon.html5.org%2Ftest%2Fxml%2Fxml-stylesheet%2Fparsing%2F002.xml |
| 16:53 | <MikeSmith> | well, that's weird |
| 16:53 | <hsivonen> | I'll have dinner and then I'll try to fix the XML parser again. more correctly this time hopefully |
| 16:53 | <MikeSmith> | actually I was not running Simon's test from that side |
| 16:53 | <MikeSmith> | I was using direct input |
| 16:53 | <hsivonen> | though I'm not planning on fixing it totally correctly |
| 16:53 | <MikeSmith> | ok |
| 16:53 | <hsivonen> | it's too broken for that |
| 16:54 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: direct input doesn't sniff the bytes for encoding, so a different code path applies |
| 16:54 | <MikeSmith> | ah |
| 17:11 | <annevk> | complained about lack of response http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg-comments/2010OctDec/0007.html |
| 17:11 | <annevk> | apparently my last email was end of August |
| 17:25 | <cryzed> | http://code.google.com/p/html5lib/issues/detail?id=141 -> Could you guys take care of this? Or are you planning on dropping BeautifulSoup support altogether? |
| 17:33 | hsivonen | removes UTF-32 support from the XML side of Validator.nu |
| 17:33 | <annevk> | yay |
| 17:34 | <annevk> | the fight encoding proliferation front salutes you |
| 17:35 | <hsivonen> | annevk: did you notice the Gecko UTF-32 removal bug? |
| 17:37 | <annevk> | yup |
| 17:48 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: http://html5.validator.nu/?doc=http%3A%2F%2Fsimon.html5.org%2Ftest%2Fxml%2Fxml-stylesheet%2Fparsing%2F002.xml&showsource=yes |
| 17:48 | <hsivonen> | now fixed for real, I hope |
| 17:52 | <annevk> | geez |
| 17:52 | <annevk> | gmail is getting so slow |
| 17:52 | <annevk> | it's annoying |
| 17:52 | <annevk> | maybe webapps are not it after all |
| 17:53 | <annevk> | constantly "still working" when I try to get through my labeled email |
| 18:18 | <MikeSmith> | annevk: hsivonen using Zimbra |
| 18:20 | <MikeSmith> | saucy is sähäkkä http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/s%C3%A4h%C3%A4kk%C3%A4#Finnish |
| 18:20 | <MikeSmith> | comparative sähäkämpi, superlative sähäkin or sähäköin |
| 18:47 | <hsivonen> | abarth: b.m.o got another duplicate of http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10427 |
| 18:48 | <hsivonen> | abarth: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=605373 |
| 18:48 | <hsivonen> | has WebKit gotten duplicates of this bug? |
| 18:48 | <hsivonen> | abarth: it might be worthwhile to check what exactly the old WebKit tree builder did |
| 18:49 | <abarth> | i don't think we've gotten reports of this |
| 18:49 | <abarth> | but the page is obviously broken in webkit now too |
| 18:56 | <annevk> | http://twitter.com/devongovett/status/28426814227 -- isn't it layout that's slow? |
| 18:57 | <abarth> | dromeo tests dom speed |
| 19:00 | <hsivonen> | testing layout speed is *hard* |
| 19:00 | <hsivonen> | it's probably a bad idea to publish a layout speed benchmark if bz hasn't reviewed it |
| 19:10 | <AryehGregor> | So as of yesterday, looks like Firefox beats Chrome on Sunspider: http://arewefastyet.com/ |
| 19:10 | <AryehGregor> | Very slightly. |
| 19:12 | <AryehGregor> | Awesome. I just wish we had some more benchmarks up there, and Opera and IE9 were on them too. |
| 20:21 | <jgraham> | People who say that javascript isn't slow are just making the wrong type of application. For a javascript game or audio analysis or image progessing or something, javascript speed is still a limiting factor |
| 20:21 | <jgraham> | Of course for other types of application DOM is the limiting factor |
| 20:22 | <jgraham> | But it is often pure scripting performance that limits the kind of applications that people are only just starting to write in javascript |
| 20:22 | <AryehGregor> | How does JS compare to something like Java these days on standard useless programming benchmarks? |
| 20:24 | <aho> | http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/u64/benchmark.php?test=all&lang=v8&lang2=java |
| 20:24 | <aho> | regex is awesome with v8 :> |
| 20:24 | <aho> | other than that java is typically 3-8 times faster |
| 20:24 | <aho> | or even over 50 times faster if you do something js is very bad at :> |
| 20:25 | <AryehGregor> | Hmm, so probably still room for improvement. |
| 20:25 | <AryehGregor> | pidigits is horrible for v8. |
| 20:25 | <aho> | garbage collection is probably one of those areas with some room for improvements |
| 20:26 | <aho> | java's gc is very advanced |
| 20:26 | <AryehGregor> | Interesting that memory is about the some. |
| 20:26 | <AryehGregor> | same. |
| 20:26 | <jgraham> | Possibly the implementation of pidigits for the v8 case is very bad |
| 20:26 | <jgraham> | (possibly not of course) |
| 20:26 | <aho> | http://arewefastyet.com/ <- seen that? |
| 20:27 | <aho> | jm is now faster than v8 in sunspider |
| 20:27 | <jgraham> | Needless to say these are not a good way to judge anything |
| 20:27 | <AryehGregor> | jgraham, they're a decent heuristic. |
| 20:28 | <AryehGregor> | Interesting. It looks like Java doesn't perform much worse than C in time taken, at least for these programs -- median 2x slower -- but it's murdered on memory use. |
| 20:28 | <jgraham> | AryehGregor: Well they probably have the advantage that language authors are unlikely to optimise for these benchmarks specifically |
| 20:28 | <AryehGregor> | Yes. |
| 20:29 | <jgraham> | But I think they are all very small problems compared to typical real applications |
| 20:30 | <Philip`> | Performance in real applications is typically limited by bottlenecks, which are very small problems |
| 20:30 | <AryehGregor> | Why don't they include PHP? The site is even written in PHP. |
| 20:30 | <AryehGregor> | Also would be cool to see different compilers compared. ICC really murders GCC. |
| 20:30 | <aho> | there is php on another machine |
| 20:30 | <aho> | http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/u32/benchmark.php?test=all&lang=php&lang2=v8 |
| 20:31 | <jgraham> | Philip`: I don't know if that is really true. Sometimes you get quite flat performance profiles where you spend an equal amount of time everywhere |
| 20:32 | <jgraham> | I mean if you are doing n-body simulations or something then sure it is all inner-loop dominated |
| 20:32 | <aho> | the php version of reverse-complement is sorta silly... it does everything in native functions. there are like 4 functions chained together with do everything :> |
| 20:32 | <aho> | *which |
| 20:33 | <AryehGregor> | aho, well, that's sensible, isn't it? |
| 20:34 | <aho> | well, it's sorta like having solveThisSpecificProblem function |
| 20:34 | <aho> | you could say the same about the regex stuff though |
| 20:34 | <aho> | .> |
| 20:35 | <AryehGregor> | It's fair to give languages credit for having good general-purpose tools like strtr and strrev and chunk_split. |
| 20:35 | <aho> | just wanted to point out why php does surprisingly well in that particular benchmark .) |
| 20:35 | <AryehGregor> | PHP has a mediocre standard library, but it's written entirely in C, so it deserves benchmark credit for that. |
| 20:36 | <jgraham> | Hmm, I wonder if the problem with pidigits is the lack of a sensible long integer type in javascript |
| 20:37 | <aho> | yea, emulating bigint stuff with doubles is sorta clumsy |
| 20:37 | <aho> | but there is no way around that currently |
| 20:38 | <aho> | well, there are ints in most js engines under the hood but there is some drag involved |
| 20:38 | <aho> | bitops for example are always sorta slow |
| 20:39 | <aho> | (i still use xorshift as prng though) :> |
| 20:39 | <jgraham> | I think that is not true anymore since I think they are tested in sunspider :) |
| 20:40 | <jgraham> | I would expect a loop containing bitops to be JITed to native instructions |
| 20:40 | <aho> | jm was always pretty good at doing brainless math in a loop |
| 20:41 | <aho> | it's pretty much the best case for tracing |
| 20:42 | <aho> | eg 6 months ago mandelbrot stuff was about 3 times faster in jm than v8 |
| 20:44 | <aho> | either way, i love the js engine wars :) |
| 20:44 | <aho> | (thanks google) :> |
| 20:50 | <AryehGregor> | Thanks Mozilla too. |
| 20:50 | <AryehGregor> | arewefastyet is great. |
| 21:07 | AryehGregor | sees this in an EULA: "You may not, in whole or in part: copy, photocopy, reproduce, translate, reverse engineer (with the exception of specific circumstances where such act is permitted by law), derive source code, modify, disassemble, decompile, or create derivative works based on the Program; . . ." |
| 21:07 | <AryehGregor> | Does that mean that the EULA is admitting that it's not prohibiting reverse-engineering except where it's already illegal anyway? |
| 21:08 | <AryehGregor> | Hmm, maybe it only means "except in cases where the law doesn't let you sign away your right to reverse-engineer". Or maybe it just means "we can sue you for breach of contract too if you do it". |
| 21:08 | <AryehGregor> | Meh, who cares. |
| 21:13 | <espadrine> | Arguably, it means that you are allowed to do so in any country that doesn't specify that reverse engineering is illegal. |
| 21:13 | <espadrine> | What EULA is it? |
| 21:15 | <AryehGregor> | Empire: Total War, a computer game. |
| 21:16 | <espadrine> | Well, they do unusual EULA then. |
| 21:16 | <AryehGregor> | Do they? How so? |
| 21:17 | <AryehGregor> | http://www.google.com/intl/en/jobs/joininggoogle/resume/index.html <-- HTML not an acceptable format? Lame. |
| 21:17 | <espadrine> | Although, iirc, Sun had a clause that forbid nuclear facilities from using their stuff. |
| 21:18 | <Ms2ger> | Opera does |
| 21:18 | <Ms2ger> | Also, flight control, IIRC |
| 21:18 | <AryehGregor> | Fascinating. |
| 21:18 | <jgraham> | Opera also accepts resumes in HTML form |
| 21:18 | <jgraham> | just sayin' |
| 21:19 | <AryehGregor> | I'd just have to move to Scandinavia, is that all? |
| 21:19 | <Ms2ger> | It would be pretty sad if they didn't |
| 21:19 | <AryehGregor> | Probably Google would too, but no sense in not following instructions. |
| 21:20 | <jgraham> | Well I say "accepts" though for most technical jobs I mean "requires" |
| 21:20 | <AryehGregor> | See, now that makes sense. |
| 21:20 | <jgraham> | AryehGregor: Well not necessarily. But most jobs are in Scandinavia |
| 21:20 | <AryehGregor> | And have someone manually inspect the source code and reject the application if they use <FONT COLOR="RED">. |
| 21:20 | <AryehGregor> | None in, say, New York or Israel? |
| 21:21 | <jgraham> | AryehGregor: http://www.opera.com/company/jobs/ |
| 21:21 | <AryehGregor> | So that's a no, then. |
| 21:22 | <jgraham> | And you can infer what you like about the <font color> stuff from http://www.opera.com/company/jobs/opening/67/ |
| 21:22 | <AryehGregor> | "Your CV and covering letter should be in HTML5/CSS. That is your first test." |
| 21:22 | <jgraham> | "Your CV and covering letter should be in HTML5/CSS. That is your first test." |
| 21:22 | <AryehGregor> | Haha. |
| 21:22 | <AryehGregor> | Awesome. |
| 21:23 | <AryehGregor> | I also bet you get points off if you do -webkit-border-radius: 1em; -moz-border-radius: 1em |
| 21:23 | <jgraham> | Well I'm not involved with recruitment |
| 21:24 | <jgraham> | But I guess one would think twice before sending in something "Best Viewed with Google Chrome" |
| 21:37 | <AryehGregor> | I just realized I have no idea how to write a decent resume. |
| 21:40 | <jgraham> | You start with an indecent one and add clothes |
| 21:45 | <aho> | :> |
| 21:48 | <Philip`> | AryehGregor: At least in the UK, there are certain cases where copyright law explicitly allows you to reverse-engineer programs (e.g. for interoperability) regardless of any other agreements that attempt to prohibit you from doing that |
| 21:49 | <Philip`> | so I guess the agreements want to be clear that their terms should not be completely ignored, since they're still prohibiting all the other cases that aren't those certain cases |
| 21:50 | <Philip`> | Oh, actually that's about "decompilation" rather than reverse-engineering |
| 21:50 | <Philip`> | but close enough |
| 21:51 | <gsnedders> | MikeSmith: I have some vague idea about pronounciation, but that's the extent of my knowledge of Gaelic |
| 21:52 | <MikeSmith> | ok |
| 21:53 | gsnedders | has some vague suspicion his CV was HTML 4.01 Strict |
| 21:53 | <gsnedders> | (But I can't remember) |
| 21:55 | <jgraham> | AryehGregor: (If you wanted more useful CV advice possibly 'nobody cares about what you did at high school' and 'imagine you have to read 100 of them and want to find all the interesting stuff quickly' would be better) |
| 21:55 | <AryehGregor> | Noted. |
| 21:57 | <AryehGregor> | I guess my CV should clearly say "Okay, I'm just out of college, but I actually have lots of experience at this stuff as a volunteer." |
| 21:57 | <MikeSmith> | AryehGregor: I think you should submit your CV as an animated movie created using xtranormal |
| 21:57 | AryehGregor | makes sure to use goo.gl for his URL shortening, and makes a mental note to change that if he submits to anyone other than Google |
| 21:58 | <gsnedders> | AryehGregor: I'd say more, look at this experience, and hey, I went to college! |
| 21:58 | <AryehGregor> | MikeSmith, I think that kind of resume is probably better suited to people applying for jobs as designers. |
| 21:58 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: More like "hey I actually finished college" :p |
| 21:58 | <gsnedders> | AryehGregor: Having gone to college is unlikely to get you a job. Having experience is probably more important. |
| 21:59 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: Hey, I'm still at university, and went to all my lectures today! |
| 21:59 | <gsnedders> | (Turns out programming lectures are still ungodly boring) |
| 21:59 | <jgraham> | (that isn't true I think) |
| 21:59 | <jgraham> | (not about gsnedders lectures) |
| 21:59 | <jgraham> | (but lots of people get jobs with degrees and little experience) |
| 21:59 | <AryehGregor> | gsnedders, well, I don't think anyone is going to be fooled into thinking I have lots of professional experience at this point. |
| 22:00 | <jgraham> | (having a degree *and* experience is obviously better) |
| 22:00 | <AryehGregor> | I mean, I should come off as being much better than some average dude just out of college. |
| 22:00 | <AryehGregor> | But probably not as good as someone with five years' of actual job experience. |
| 22:00 | <jgraham> | (having just experience depends a lot on who you are applying to) |
| 22:00 | <AryehGregor> | (except that if I'm applying specifically for web specs, probably like twelve people have at least five years' of job experience with that, so) |
| 22:01 | <AryehGregor> | (half of them are probably in this room) |
| 22:01 | <gsnedders> | Yeah, sure. And my point about mentioning the experience first is more that you want to set yourself apart. Whoever is looking at it probably has 100 others to look at, all starting with, "I went to the university and got put in a box". |
| 22:01 | <gsnedders> | AryehGregor: To actually edit specs full time, or? |
| 22:01 | jgraham | didn't get put into a box at university |
| 22:01 | <jgraham> | although there was probably a societry for that if it's your thing |
| 22:02 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: Yes you did, you're the same as everyone else! |
| 22:02 | <gsnedders> | (There again, you'll probably claim I can't reference songs without girls around.) |
| 22:02 | <gsnedders> | (Again.) |
| 22:02 | <MikeSmith> | AryehGregor: under the Entrepreneurial Experience heading, I recommend not listing any marijuana grow operations you might be running |
| 22:03 | <AryehGregor> | MikeSmith, but if I'm doing something more unusual and enterprising, like smuggling cocaine, you think that would be a good thing to say? |
| 22:03 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: (the irony of the song is that it is almost entirely the wrong way roungd, I think) |
| 22:03 | <MikeSmith> | also, experience with making money trading smuggled contraband in country jail is often to valued quite a highly as you might think it would be |
| 22:03 | <jgraham> | (I suspect people who go to university end up leading way more diverse lifestyles than people who don't) |
| 22:03 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: (Then there's the irony of who keeps singing it :P) |
| 22:03 | <MikeSmith> | AryehGregor: just use code words |
| 22:04 | <AryehGregor> | jgraham, it probably depends on how you measure diversity. |
| 22:04 | <jgraham> | MikeSmith: Like when you say "Man mangement skills" and you mean "I'm a sociopath that will make CEO one day" |
| 22:04 | <MikeSmith> | heh |
| 22:05 | <AryehGregor> | MikeSmith, so do you think I should be aiming to make it into thedailywtf.com's next round-up of resume submissions, or what? |
| 22:06 | <jgraham> | AryehGregor: Sure, it's all about getting your name known in the right circles |
| 22:07 | AryehGregor | realizes that goo.gl provides public click profile data, so if he includes a goo.gl URL in a resume that he only submits to Google, he'll have a good idea of how many people read it and where they are. |
| 22:07 | <AryehGregor> | The irony is delicious. |
| 22:07 | <AryehGregor> | jgraham, sadly, TDWTF tends not to include names. |
| 22:08 | <gsnedders> | AryehGregor: Seriously though, what specifically are you trying to get a job doing? |
| 22:08 | <MikeSmith> | AryehGregor: there's no such thing as bad publicity |
| 22:08 | <Ms2ger> | You could just have your resume on your website and send yourself an email for every hit |
| 22:08 | <Ms2ger> | (Like Hixie) |
| 22:08 | <AryehGregor> | gsnedders, my general goal at this point is to get a job where people will pay me money. Possibly this will involve me performing some activity they desire in exchange, preferably one that I find at least moderately enjoyable. |
| 22:09 | <AryehGregor> | This seems like a fairly conventional course of action. |
| 22:09 | <Philip`> | Ms2ger: If you do that, you should be very careful not to mention it in the presence of people who might then find it amusing to set up a script that downloads the page and loops several times a second |
| 22:10 | <AryehGregor> | Realistically, something in web standards seems like a good bet, because there's hardly a lot of competition. Failing that, programming is fine too. |
| 22:10 | <jgraham> | So far it is not clear that you have excluded, say "high class male escort" from your list of possibilities |
| 22:10 | <AryehGregor> | Well, I doubt that would be very competitive pay, given my skill set. |
| 22:10 | <AryehGregor> | Also given my incredibly nerdy appearance. |
| 22:12 | <gsnedders> | Hey, I'm sure some are into that. |
| 22:13 | <jgraham> | Maybe not enough for a regular income |
| 22:16 | <Hixie> | hm, did anyone write a counter-proposal for the rel registry? |
| 22:16 | <Hixie> | we're a few days past the deadline |
| 22:18 | <othermaciej> | TabAtkins said he was going to, but I don't know if he did anything yet |
| 22:19 | <hober> | at the same time, the wg doesn't seem enthusiastic about the IETF registry |
| 22:28 | <Hixie> | well, i sent a null CP |
| 23:56 | <annevk> | AryehGregor, we hired someone who works from New York |
| 23:57 | <annevk> | AryehGregor, it depends on the position really, but we have several people working from home, including people working on the Core engine |
| 23:57 | annevk | works from home too |
| 23:57 | <annevk> | mostly |
| 23:59 | gsnedders | works from home |