| 03:30 | <nessy> | Hixie - are you there? |
| 03:33 | <nessy> | the ruby markup in WebSRT uses <ruby> and <rt> elements, but as I am trying to learn about ruby, I am crossing examples that look like this: <ruby><rb>xxx</rb><rt>yyy</rt></ruby> and also <rp>, <rbc> and <rtc> elements - what's up with all that? |
| 03:47 | <karlcow> | nessy: I had the impression that complex ruby was not supported (yet?) |
| 03:47 | <nessy> | karlcow: I have no idea what complex ruby is and or is not, and even less whether it is implemented or even standardised |
| 03:48 | <nessy> | I am trying to understand why <ruby> is specified the way it is in WebSRT :) |
| 03:48 | <karlcow> | rtc, rbc are elements of "complex ruby" |
| 03:48 | <nessy> | so, are <ruby> and <rt> the common ruby markup in Web pages right now and all implemented and supported? |
| 03:48 | <karlcow> | http://www.w3.org/TR/ruby/#rbc |
| 03:49 | <nessy> | yeah, I saw that, which is why I am asking - so <rbc> and <rtc> are not implemented and I can safely ignore them - good to know |
| 03:49 | <nessy> | what about <rb> ? |
| 03:51 | <karlcow> | http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/text-level-semantics.html#the-ruby-element it seems it has not been added to the spec either (for now) |
| 03:51 | <karlcow> | http://html5doctor.com/ruby-rt-rp-element/ |
| 03:52 | <karlcow> | at this last uri, there is a table for browser support |
| 03:52 | <nessy> | I found <rb> on the relevant wikipedia page, which got me wondering |
| 03:53 | <nessy> | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruby_character |
| 03:53 | <nessy> | and indeed <rp> |
| 03:54 | <nessy> | thanks for helping me understand - seems there are three levels of markup with increasing complexity and the lowest is the only implemented one |
| 03:55 | <nessy> | the html5doctor page is really awesome, thanks! |
| 03:55 | <karlcow> | nessy: another article which is good to understand http://my.opera.com/tagawa/blog/the-html5-ruby-element-in-words-of-one-syllable-or-less |
| 04:05 | <nessy> | thanks |
| 04:51 | <MikeSmith> | so if I were to attempt to draft some implementation requirements for the console object, I'm wondering if there's something spec'ed somewhere already that I can crib from |
| 04:51 | <MikeSmith> | not the IDL I mean |
| 04:51 | <MikeSmith> | that part I have |
| 04:52 | <MikeSmith> | a start on at least |
| 04:52 | <MikeSmith> | but instead the UA requirements around what the UA should actually do with it |
| 05:41 | <infid> | how do you pronounce whatwg? 'what w.g.'? |
| 05:42 | <MikeSmith> | infid: yeah, that works |
| 05:42 | <MikeSmith> | some people say what wee gee |
| 05:42 | <infid> | it makes me wanna say 'whatwig' |
| 05:54 | <boogyman> | If it hasn't already been discussed can we add placeholder color in CSS4 for form controls :) |
| 06:14 | <Hixie> | infid: i say "what wuh jee" |
| 07:51 | <zcorpan> | Web application analysis and debugging - WAAAD |
| 07:51 | <zcorpan> | pretty good acronym |
| 07:59 | annevk | says what-wii-jee |
| 08:15 | zcorpan | says what working group |
| 08:16 | <annevk> | no wonder everyone knows the W3C better ;p |
| 08:16 | <zcorpan> | should have gone with whattf |
| 08:26 | <MikeSmith> | how can I figure out what type of exception a console.assert implementation is throwing? |
| 08:26 | <MikeSmith> | and does the spec need to define what type of exception it's supposed to throw? |
| 08:26 | <Peter`> | console.log in a try/catch block? |
| 08:27 | <MikeSmith> | ok |
| 08:30 | <annevk> | don't we wanna leave the details up to the implementations mostly? |
| 08:30 | <annevk> | but just define that .console needs to exist as well as several methods on it? |
| 08:34 | <MikeSmith> | annevk: would be fine by me but |
| 08:34 | <MikeSmith> | I notice http://getfirebug.com/wiki/index.php/Console_API#console.assert.28expression.5B.2C_object.2C_....5D.29 |
| 08:34 | <MikeSmith> | "Tests that an expression is true. If not, it will write a message to the console and throw an exception." |
| 08:35 | <MikeSmith> | which led me to wonder about exactly what kind of exception current implementations actually throw |
| 08:35 | <annevk> | fair enough |
| 08:36 | <MikeSmith> | but yeah, agreed in principle that we want to leave the details up to the implementation |
| 08:36 | <MikeSmith> | that wiki page already goes to far into implementation detail |
| 08:36 | <MikeSmith> | I thinki |
| 08:37 | <annevk> | wow, console.log() is complicated |
| 08:37 | <MikeSmith> | e.g., it says, "Writes a message to the console with the visual "error" icon and color coding and a hyperlink to the line where it was called" |
| 08:37 | <MikeSmith> | which seems not righ |
| 08:37 | <MikeSmith> | seems like it should just say that it writes a message with a flag set to indicate it's an error message |
| 08:38 | <MikeSmith> | and maybe that it also include the line number |
| 08:38 | <MikeSmith> | but then it's up to the implementation to decide what it does with that data |
| 08:38 | <MikeSmith> | whether to display an icon or hyperlink or whatever |
| 08:39 | <annevk> | but this is not a spec |
| 08:39 | <MikeSmith> | what is it? |
| 08:39 | <annevk> | or maybe it is, but at a different level than W3C specs, if you can say such a thing :) |
| 08:39 | <MikeSmith> | yeah sure |
| 08:39 | <annevk> | I mean, for a particular UA you can write a specification that includes UI requirements |
| 08:40 | <MikeSmith> | true |
| 08:40 | <MikeSmith> | but the scope of this is just the api |
| 08:41 | <MikeSmith> | or really the definition of object itself i guess |
| 08:42 | <MikeSmith> | and I would think it should be precise enough and thorough within that scope enough to give whatever level of interoperability |
| 08:42 | <MikeSmith> | anyway |
| 08:42 | <MikeSmith> | my goal is just to have some initial draft that somebody else can pick up on |
| 08:43 | <MikeSmith> | seems like we have enough people interested in this |
| 08:43 | <MikeSmith> | and it will be a relatively small document |
| 08:47 | <sroussey> | I think error, uncaught exceptions, and assertions all log to the console, but also provide backtrace information |
| 08:48 | <sroussey> | That is the reference to the hyperlink. We actually have a twisty thing that opens up a backtrace and then each function is a hyperlink |
| 08:48 | <sroussey> | You could also set breakpoints from the error message in the console |
| 08:49 | <sroussey> | But I don't know how much of that is needed for a spec. You could conceivably have a stack trace for a console.log but that doesn't make too much sense, and the UI can determine that |
| 09:23 | <MikeSmith> | another thing with all the console methods is, they don't actually write messages to the console |
| 09:24 | <MikeSmith> | because the stuff you can have them log is not just strings |
| 09:24 | <MikeSmith> | it can be any kind of object |
| 09:24 | <MikeSmith> | and any number of objects |
| 09:24 | <MikeSmith> | so it's not a "message" |
| 09:24 | <MikeSmith> | except in some abstract sense |
| 09:25 | <MikeSmith> | it's more like just "log content" or even just "content" |
| 09:26 | <MikeSmith> | e.g., instead of "Writes a message to the console" it should be "Outputs some content to the console" |
| 09:35 | <MikeSmith> | annevk: anyway, it would seem that the spec should define at least one conformance class and target itself to that |
| 09:35 | <MikeSmith> | otherwise I can't see any point in having it all |
| 09:35 | <annevk> | which spec? |
| 09:36 | <annevk> | I was talking about the wiki page earlier... |
| 09:36 | <MikeSmith> | console object spec |
| 09:36 | <annevk> | makes sense to me |
| 09:55 | <jgraham> | MikeSmith: The stuff you can log is just strings, no? It's just that you get implicit type conversion |
| 09:55 | <MikeSmith> | no |
| 09:55 | <MikeSmith> | not as far as I can see |
| 09:55 | <MikeSmith> | like console.dir() |
| 09:56 | <MikeSmith> | well, all the methods, really |
| 09:57 | <MikeSmith> | if you pass, say, a node as an argument |
| 09:57 | <MikeSmith> | then the console shows the same kind of tree view of that node as it does in the DOM inspector |
| 09:57 | <MikeSmith> | not a string representation |
| 09:57 | <jgraham> | From a spec point of view that seems like an implementation detail |
| 09:58 | <jgraham> | I mean presumably it would be conforming for a UA to represent it as a single string |
| 09:59 | <jgraham> | But yes, I see that some methods could optionally log something more rich |
| 11:11 | <annevk> | hsivonen, fwiw, I do enjoy your "Blogish Notes" |
| 11:12 | <hsivonen> | annevk: thanks. I'm going to post this but I'm still uphappy about the time it has so far taken to write up my Galaxy Tab thoughts as a post |
| 11:12 | <hsivonen> | compared to writing a series of tweet |
| 11:14 | <hsivonen> | s |
| 12:53 | <Philip`> | karlcow: I assume it's because most people aren't sociopaths |
| 12:54 | <karlcow> | Philip`: which is kind of good. The main issue being that when "aggressed" online, there is little way to know that it happened for most people. |
| 12:54 | <karlcow> | *ways |
| 13:53 | <annevk> | http://simonwillison.net/2010/Oct/25/bleach/ html5lib in production use |
| 13:53 | <annevk> | guess nobody cares about speed |
| 13:53 | <asmodai> | Speed is for pussies! |
| 13:54 | <asmodai> | http://coffeeonthekeyboard.com/bleach-html-sanitizer-and-auto-linker-for-django-344/ <-- boxes around the highlighted terms too big for others as well? |
| 13:55 | <jgraham> | annevk: If you are doing sanitization maybe correctness is important. Most blog comments aren't multimegabyte anyway |
| 13:55 | <annevk> | i was not actually being serious |
| 14:07 | <annevk> | oh help |
| 14:07 | <annevk> | someone mentioned xml:dir |
| 14:08 | <annevk> | not sure I'm ready for another lang/xml:lang clusterfuck |
| 14:09 | <asmodai> | http://feedbackroulette.com/info/howitworks XD |
| 14:09 | Philip` | wonders if anyone's going to bother replying to the <h7>..<h9> proposal on public-html to say we already have infinitely many levels of heading elements, all called <h1> |
| 14:11 | <annevk> | If people don't even bother reading the drafts... |
| 14:26 | karlcow | doesn't see the mail on public-html |
| 14:27 | <annevk> | public-html-comments |
| 14:29 | <karlcow> | annevk: thanks. |
| 14:41 | <annevk> | W3C is being DDOS'ed again because of DTD fetching... |
| 14:43 | <miketaylr> | are there uas that actually fetch dtds? |
| 14:56 | <MikeSmith> | annevk: indeed |
| 14:57 | <MikeSmith> | miketaylr: there are |
| 14:57 | <miketaylr> | O_o |
| 14:57 | <MikeSmith> | yeah :( |
| 14:57 | <MikeSmith> | asshats… |
| 14:57 | <miketaylr> | haha |
| 14:59 | Philip` | recently saw http://www.virtualdub.org/blog/pivot/entry.php?id=320 - "If you just enable DTD support and use the validating reader though, the .NET Framework will happily go and download the XHTML DTD from the W3 every single time, without caching." |
| 15:00 | <zcorpan> | i wonder what should happen with <video poster> for a media stream with no video data |
| 15:00 | MikeSmith | keeps quiet about that |
| 15:01 | <zcorpan> | maybe i should file a new bug about that |
| 15:04 | <zcorpan> | Hixie: "An error occured while submitting your comment. Please let ian⊙hc know." |
| 15:09 | <MikeSmith> | zcorpan: that error is because of bugzilla being inaccessible due to the latest DDOS |
| 15:09 | <zcorpan> | oh |
| 15:09 | <zcorpan> | i could access bugzilla though |
| 15:14 | <MikeSmith> | zcorpan: I think it's improving now |
| 15:14 | <MikeSmith> | and I think it depends on which mirror you happen to hit |
| 15:19 | karlcow | has been ddos by MS Outlook a few times to the point where I have denied any requests from this user agent. |
| 15:20 | <karlcow> | http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2006Nov/0011 |
| 15:23 | <jgraham> | karlcow: How does that story end? Presumably that wasn't part of the stock outlook but some extension or so? Otherwise the numbers would presumably be much higher |
| 15:23 | <karlcow> | I never had a reply from Microsoft. never. |
| 15:24 | <karlcow> | I don't know if MS Outlook is still trying. I could check. I never look at the stats of my Web site. |
| 15:31 | <karlcow> | jgraham: a lot better… only 16 requests (403) on October 24 for Outlook |
| 16:48 | <TabAtkin1_> | gsnedders: I'm here *now*. You still need anything? |
| 16:53 | jgraham | decides it would be cruel to list all the things that gsnedders needs ;) |
| 17:16 | gsnedders | wonders what mean things jgraham is thinking of now… |
| 17:28 | <infid> | is OSMF a competitor to html5 or a separate thing |
| 17:28 | <infid> | as far as media |
| 17:28 | TabAtkin1_ | doesn't even know what OSMF is. Googling... |
| 17:29 | <TabAtkin1_> | It's just a flash framework for developing media players. Irrelevant to HTML. |
| 17:37 | <infid> | adobe led, open-source actionscript 3 framework for playing and displaying media |
| 17:38 | <infid> | supports any type of media that can be loaded by Flash, including (streaming audio) mp3, AAC, Speex, and Nellymoser; (streaming video) FLV, F4V, MP4, MPEG-4: MP4, M4V, F4V, 3GPP; (audio) mp3; (video) FLV, F4V, MP4, MP4V-ES, M4V, 3GPP, 3GPP2, QuickTime; (images) PNG, GIF, or JPG; and SWF files. |
| 17:41 | <infid> | it's completely code based, doesn't require flash or flex is why i ask if it's a competitor, seems like it'd just be an alternative way to create video but should be usable inside of your html5. just saw some code and it just looks like javascript |
| 17:50 | <TabAtkins_> | Yeah, but it's for messing with Flash-based components. |
| 17:50 | <TabAtkins_> | I guess theoretically it could be used with <video> as well. In any case, it's a library at a higher level than HTML5. |
| 17:53 | <TabAtkins_> | Hmm, showing a poster for <audio> seems like a common use-case. |
| 17:53 | <TabAtkins_> | That should probably be done by putting the audio in a <video>, I guess. |
| 19:12 | <karlcow> | since I removed flash from my computer, I spent a lot less time watching videos :) |
| 19:13 | <gsnedders> | This worked fine for me. Then YouTube started with their WebM encoding of videos. Then it went downhill again. |
| 19:15 | <karlcow> | I haven't downloaded Opera 11 yet. Not sure I want to cope right away with the crashes |
| 19:15 | <gsnedders> | It shouldn't be any more unstable than 10.6x. |
| 19:16 | <gsnedders> | (Stability shouldn't really differ, what really differs is the amount of pre-release testing.) |
| 19:17 | <karlcow> | ok let's give it a try and curse gsnedders for centuries ;) |
| 19:18 | <gsnedders> | Bah, you'll find some other excuse to do it anyway :) |
| 19:18 | <karlcow> | heh |
| 19:18 | <gsnedders> | *you'd |
| 19:21 | <karlcow> | ok 1st bad karma, all my tabs are gone |
| 19:21 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: I woudln't expect 11 alpha to be as stable as 10.63 |
| 19:22 | <gsnedders> | karlcow: Oh, yeah, it'll use a different profile folder |
| 19:23 | <karlcow> | renaming old opera as opera10.63 and the new one as opera11 |
| 19:23 | <Workshiva> | operall |
| 19:24 | <kamathln> | Hi.. how offtopic a discussion is tolerable on this channel? |
| 19:24 | <TabAtkins_> | We tend to like keeping things about web technologies, but there's isn't any real topic. |
| 19:24 | <jgraham> | kamathln: Generally quite |
| 19:24 | <Workshiva> | Depends on how much people like you |
| 19:24 | <TabAtkins_> | So technically nothing is off-topic, by definition. |
| 19:24 | <Workshiva> | Also, how much you're willing to stand for when other people find the logs |
| 19:24 | <jgraham> | But I guess people won't be too happy if you start trying to sell penis enhancement products |
| 19:25 | <Workshiva> | Yeah, that's MikeSmith's racket |
| 19:25 | <Workshiva> | He doesn't like competition |
| 19:25 | <kamathln> | lol |
| 19:25 | <kamathln> | just wanted input on http://creator.zoho.com/kamathln/browserbenchmarks |
| 19:26 | <kamathln> | its a zoho app I mashed up this evening so please be gentle on the looks |
| 19:26 | <kamathln> | that would be zoho's dept |
| 19:26 | <TabAtkins_> | I'm getting no data. |
| 19:26 | <kamathln> | there is no data |
| 19:26 | <kamathln> | but you can add |
| 19:26 | <TabAtkins_> | Ah, kk. |
| 19:26 | <kamathln> | i am asking about the concept |
| 19:26 | <karlcow> | kamathln: people here have poor taste in visual layouts. So no risk of bad comments |
| 19:27 | <jgraham> | I would be scared of getting into the benchmarks business |
| 19:27 | <kamathln> | lemme throw some data in there |
| 19:27 | <TabAtkins_> | I'm of the opinion that there are only two useful colors on the web - #fff and #222. |
| 19:27 | <kamathln> | jgraham: but why? |
| 19:27 | <TabAtkins_> | (#000 is so gauche) |
| 19:27 | <jgraham> | Unless you have a *really* strong grip on what you are doing |
| 19:27 | <kamathln> | Well, I am not designing the benchmarks themselves |
| 19:28 | <Workshiva> | TabAtkins_: How will you write test cases without red, green and blue? |
| 19:28 | <kamathln> | I am jsut providing a place to share benchmarks |
| 19:28 | <jgraham> | kamathln: Because most benchmarks, even popular ones, are not that well thought out. And yet people try to read lots into them |
| 19:28 | <jgraham> | Encouraging people to read lots into poorly thought out things doesn't strike me as a great idea |
| 19:28 | <kamathln> | thats up to people to decide |
| 19:28 | <gsnedders> | And statistically quite a few of them really aren't very good. |
| 19:28 | <TabAtkins_> | Workshiva: I'll write out "red". |
| 19:28 | <jgraham> | kamathln: People are very bad at deciding though |
| 19:29 | <gsnedders> | kamathln: People don't decide. They look, see x > y, and conclude product b is better than a as a result. |
| 19:29 | <Workshiva> | But why would you use a color that isn't useful? :P |
| 19:29 | <jgraham> | Most benchmarks that are quoted in reviews and so on are not that meaningful |
| 19:29 | <kamathln> | good for them |
| 19:30 | <jgraham> | To turn this on its head: why do you thing this is a useful thing to do? |
| 19:30 | <kamathln> | browser wars |
| 19:30 | <gsnedders> | Spreading information that is not meaningful is not productive. |
| 19:30 | <kamathln> | I love them |
| 19:30 | <kamathln> | :D |
| 19:30 | <gsnedders> | kamathln: Hint: browsers aren't going to fight over more than a very small number of benchmarks, and those are ones people have heard of already. |
| 19:32 | <jgraham> | If you end up making a benchmark from a combination of prewritten benchmarks then you fall foul of my first point; you need to be an expert to determine what the things that are worth including are |
| 19:32 | <jgraham> | If you are an expert or are willing to become one, that is fine |
| 19:32 | <gsnedders> | Yet alone to balance them fairly |
| 19:32 | <jgraham> | Most people, even people who write benchmarks, are not |
| 19:33 | <jgraham> | (FWIW I think chosing a browser because it does sunspider in n ms whereas some other browser does it in n+10 is silly) |
| 19:33 | <kamathln> | did you know about http://dromaeo.com/ |
| 19:33 | <gsnedders> | e.g., there are things on sunspider where a 50% speed increase doesn't matter that much, but other things 50% is very significant, because some tests take 3ms and other tests take 300ms. |
| 19:33 | <jgraham> | Yes |
| 19:33 | <gsnedders> | kamathln: It's not particuarly good. |
| 19:34 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: (that is just bad design in sunspider though) |
| 19:34 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: (because they didn't update it fast enough when some parts were optimised in new engines) |
| 19:35 | <MikeSmith> | unless there's a way to add data to the page by using some talking teddy bears, I'll probably just spent the time lighting up and making more xtranormal movies instead |
| 19:35 | <jgraham> | (which is the only reasonable thing to do because there is no good way to weight things that differ by orders of magnitude, especially when some of them are below your timer resolution) |
| 21:11 | <othermaciej> | Hixie: ayt? |
| 21:11 | <Hixie> | here |
| 21:12 | <othermaciej> | can you either remove the comment form in the w3c draft or add some better spam protection? (preferably just the former unless the latter can be done quickly) |
| 21:12 | <annevk> | lhttp://www.marketwatch.com/story/wary-of-google-street-view-move-ceo-says-2010-10-22 o_O |
| 21:12 | <annevk> | http://www.marketwatch.com/story/wary-of-google-street-view-move-ceo-says-2010-10-22 |
| 21:13 | <annevk> | '“Street View, we drive exactly once,” Schmidt said, referring to the vehicles mounted with cameras sent out to take photos for the service. “So, you can just move, right?”' |
| 21:13 | <annevk> | that guy is a tool when it comes to statements about privacy |
| 21:13 | <annevk> | joking or not |
| 21:15 | <Hixie> | othermaciej: we added better spam protection last week |
| 21:16 | <Hixie> | is it still a problem? |
| 21:16 | <annevk> | Peter`, "actual rendering" ;p |
| 21:17 | <annevk> | Peter-, might actually add that rule now |
| 21:17 | <Peter-> | works for me! |
| 21:18 | <Peter-> | changed it to "vertical" :) |
| 21:26 | <othermaciej> | Hixie: when was the better protection added? |
| 21:26 | <Hixie> | i don't recall exactly. We were talking about it on IRC though. Friday maybe? |
| 21:26 | <othermaciej> | Hixie: last spammy bug I see is 10/20 |
| 21:27 | <Hixie> | pretty sure it was after the 20th |
| 21:27 | <othermaciej> | if you let the WG list know that there is better protection I think that will cover it, right now the public-html thread is dangling |
| 21:27 | <Hixie> | *shrug* |
| 21:27 | <Hixie> | they'll figure it out |
| 21:27 | <TabAtkins_> | Hixie: You seem to be contradicting yourself in the css testsuite thread. |
| 21:27 | <annevk> | http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2010/10/france_on_strike.html o_O |
| 21:27 | <Hixie> | TabAtkins_: how so? |
| 21:27 | <annevk> | gonna be fun next week |
| 21:28 | <TabAtkins_> | Hixie: Wait, never mind, I was *completely* misreading what you wrote. I flipped a "not". |
| 21:28 | <Hixie> | hehe |
| 21:28 | <Hixie> | ok good :-) |
| 21:28 | <Hixie> | annevk: wow, that first picture is gold |
| 21:28 | <jgraham> | /me wishes he remembered to look at The Big Picture more often |
| 21:29 | <annevk> | The Big Picture is one of the best things on the internet |
| 21:29 | <annevk> | right up there with reddit.com :) |
| 21:29 | <Hixie> | i wish there was a better way to experience the big picture photos |
| 21:29 | <Hixie> | scrolling with a browser doesn't work well |
| 21:29 | <Hixie> | it's a perfect candidate for media=projection |
| 21:30 | <annevk> | yeah, you need to have some crazy ass timing skills for scrolling to work |
| 21:30 | <Hixie> | othermaciej: (most if not all the thread actually happened after it was fixed, iirc) |
| 21:31 | <volkmar> | AryehGregor: ping |
| 21:31 | <AryehGregor> | volkmar, pong |
| 21:31 | <AryehGregor> | I've been meaning to look at your patch . . . bogged down in schoolwork right now. |
| 21:31 | <volkmar> | will you have time for the feedback on bug 601061 (mozilla) ? |
| 21:32 | <AryehGregor> | Okay, I should be able to get to that in a few minutes. |
| 21:32 | <volkmar> | AryehGregor: great :) |
| 21:36 | <jgraham> | annevk: reddit? I can't tell if that is sarcasm or not |
| 21:38 | <jgraham> | Also, France is awesome |
| 21:38 | <AryehGregor> | volkmar, what's the range of a PRUint32? 0 to 2^31 - 1? |
| 21:39 | <jgraham> | Particularly the people who protest in high heels |
| 21:40 | <othermaciej> | Hixie: there does seem to be some slightly less blatant spam getting through |
| 21:40 | <othermaciej> | e.g. 5 instances of http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Oct/0353.html |
| 21:40 | <othermaciej> | 2 instances of http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Oct/0370.html |
| 21:40 | <Hixie> | othermaciej: those are from the whatwg spec's one |
| 21:40 | AryehGregor | guesses he'll comment on the bug |
| 21:40 | <othermaciej> | I see |
| 21:40 | <Hixie> | you can tell because their URL isn't #top |
| 21:40 | <Hixie> | (the w3c version always uses #top for the URL's fragid) |
| 21:41 | <volkmar> | AryehGregor: 0 -> 2^32-1, 0 -> 2^31-1 is the positive part of a PRInt32 |
| 21:42 | <AryehGregor> | volkmar, so what prevents GetUnsignedIntAttr() from returning something greater than 2^31-1? |
| 21:42 | <AryehGregor> | It's not allowed to per spec (since no browser currently does). |
| 21:42 | <AryehGregor> | Unfortunately, I don't understand exactly what a lot of the code is doing, so it's hard to comment . . . |
| 21:42 | <volkmar> | AryehGregor: because the value is stored as a PRInt32 so we can't have something greater than 2^31-1 |
| 21:43 | <AryehGregor> | Okay. |
| 21:44 | <AryehGregor> | What does the PR_MIN(aValue, PR_INT32_MAX) do? Clamp it to 2^31 - 1? If so, does that mean if I set it to 3000000000 then it will return 2^31 - 1 on getting? The spec says it should return the default value in that case. |
| 21:45 | AryehGregor | puts his comments on the bug instead |
| 21:45 | <volkmar> | AryehGregor: i think what you say applies for setAttribute('size') but not for .size |
| 21:46 | <AryehGregor> | They should work identically here, no? |
| 21:47 | <volkmar> | "On setting, the given value must be converted to the shortest possible string representing the number as a valid non-negative integer and then that string must be used as the new content attribute value." |
| 21:47 | <AryehGregor> | Right, so value.size = 3000000000; is the same as value.setAttribute("3000000000"), right? |
| 21:47 | <AryehGregor> | Er. |
| 21:48 | <AryehGregor> | Or whatever. |
| 21:48 | <AryehGregor> | input.size. |
| 21:48 | <AryehGregor> | But then we should have input.size == 20 or such. |
| 21:48 | <Hixie> | well don't forget WebIDL might fiddle with the new value before it gets there |
| 21:48 | <Hixie> | but yes, in principle |
| 21:48 | <AryehGregor> | Not if it's in the range of an unsigned int, like 3000000000 is. |
| 21:48 | <volkmar> | AryehGregor: when you call input.size = <foo>, a valid value will be saved in the content attribute |
| 21:48 | <volkmar> | or i'm missing something :/ |
| 21:49 | <Hixie> | right, i didn't know if you meant 3000000000 specifically or if that was a generic poorly-named variable :-) |
| 21:49 | <volkmar> | AryehGregor: a valid non-negative integer is < 2^31, right? |
| 21:49 | <AryehGregor> | No. |
| 21:49 | <AryehGregor> | "A string is a valid non-negative integer if it consists of one or more characters in the range U+0030 DIGIT ZERO (0) to U+0039 DIGIT NINE (9)." |
| 21:50 | <volkmar> | hmm |
| 21:51 | <volkmar> | i should have click on that link |
| 21:51 | <volkmar> | i was assuming it was 0 to 2^31 |
| 21:51 | <volkmar> | AryehGregor: thanks :) |
| 21:55 | <TabAtkins_> | gsnedders: Oh geez, the <code> backgrounds on the bleach site are horribly large! |
| 22:18 | <gsnedders> | TabAtkins_: Yeah. :( |
| 22:28 | <annevk> | MikeSmith, you might need to step in as new co-host for Standards Suck next week |
| 22:29 | <annevk> | if there is enough time and space to record a few |
| 22:29 | <MikeSmith> | annevk: excellent |
| 22:29 | <annevk> | I was hoping you would say that :) |
| 22:30 | <MikeSmith> | we can add new segment where people have to show viewers their dance moves |
| 22:30 | <MikeSmith> | and viewers rate them |
| 22:30 | <heycam> | TabAtkins_, othermaciej, do you know about http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/adobe_html5_for_digital_publishing_collaborates_with_jquery_webkit.php and whether this text-in-arbitrary-shapes work is going to result in some standards (and if so -- CSS and/or SVG)? |
| 22:31 | <gsnedders> | MikeSmith: You have to add some random segment to each episode. |
| 22:33 | <MikeSmith> | the possibilities are endless |
| 22:33 | <TabAtkins_> | heycam: Hadn't heard about it, but yeah, we always propose anything that we think is half-worthwhile to the appropriate standards groups. |
| 22:40 | <heycam> | TabAtkins_, cool. yeah first i'd heard of this too. |
| 22:43 | <jgraham> | MikeSmith: I thought you would be using your shot at internet fame to pimp your "male enhancement" line |
| 22:52 | <othermaciej> | heycam: I have heard nothing about it |
| 22:52 | <othermaciej> | heycam: Adobe has done a lot of "working with" WebKit which I only ever became aware of through their press releases |
| 22:52 | <MikeSmith> | jgraham: I'm multitasking |
| 22:52 | <heycam> | othermaciej, i see |
| 22:53 | <volkmar> | AryehGregor: still there ? |
| 22:58 | <TabAtkins_> | heycam: Also, I have the "flow text in arbitrary shapes" thing on my list of CSS things to work on, so if no one else gets to it I'll address it in the medium future. |
| 22:58 | <heycam> | TabAtkins_, ok |
| 23:00 | <Hixie> | othermaciej: i have the same problem with them and contributing to / supporting html |
| 23:13 | <AryehGregor> | volkmar, still here. |
| 23:15 | <volkmar> | AryehGregor: if you have time, i've updated the patch |
| 23:15 | <volkmar> | in addition, i was looking more carefuly to your reflection test and it seems to have some mistakes |
| 23:16 | <volkmar> | do you have a repository so i can provide patches ? |
| 23:16 | <AryehGregor> | volkmar, I gave the link to the repository. :) |
| 23:17 | <AryehGregor> | It's in the W3C HTMLWG's hg test repo. |
| 23:17 | <AryehGregor> | I haven't looked over the failures in various browsers carefully for a while, but last I did, I'm pretty sure they were all correct per spec. |
| 23:17 | <AryehGregor> | Happy to hear feedback. |
| 23:17 | <volkmar> | AryehGregor: input.autocomplete seems wrong |
| 23:18 | <volkmar> | and you are looking for attribute that do not exist on output |
| 23:20 | <AryehGregor> | volkmar, what's wrong about input.autocomplete? |
| 23:21 | <volkmar> | AryehGregor: it looks like you are assuming it's working like form.autocomplete |
| 23:21 | <volkmar> | which is not the case |
| 23:21 | <AryehGregor> | In what way? |
| 23:21 | <volkmar> | AFAIUI, if i do input.autocomplete = "foo"; input.autocomplete should return "", not "on" |
| 23:23 | <AryehGregor> | Okay, you're right, they're different. |
| 23:23 | <AryehGregor> | Yay consistency. |
| 23:23 | <volkmar> | yep :( |
| 23:40 | <TabAtkins_> | Hixie: What's the meaning of @-rules specified in a <style scoped>? Does @scoped only have an effect on selector matching, so @-rules (like @keyframes) still apply globally? |
| 23:42 | <Hixie> | @rules are scoped to the current sheet, aren't they? |
| 23:42 | <Hixie> | or at most the current sheet and anyone that imported the sheet? |
| 23:42 | <TabAtkins_> | Um... dunno? |
| 23:42 | <Hixie> | making them polute a global scope would be pretty bad |
| 23:42 | <Hixie> | so we should definitely not make that mistake again :-) |
| 23:43 | TabAtkins_ | isn't sure where in 2.1 he'd find anything about that, since the at-rules section doesn't say anything. |
| 23:43 | <Hixie> | assuming any declarations in a sheet X are scoped to the sheet that @imported the sheet X and the sheet X itself, the answer to your question is "it doesn't matter" |
| 23:43 | <TabAtkins_> | Right. |
| 23:44 | <Hixie> | however if that assumption is wrong then i need to fix something |
| 23:44 | <Hixie> | css2.1 doesn't have nany declaration @rules |
| 23:44 | <Hixie> | any |
| 23:44 | <Hixie> | so it's not an issue there |
| 23:44 | <Hixie> | i'm only aware of two types of declaration @-rules, the variable stuff and the animation stuff |
| 23:44 | <Hixie> | so i guess that should be fixed there |
| 23:45 | <TabAtkins_> | Yeah. I have @counter-style in my unpublished Lists rev, too. |
| 23:45 | <TabAtkins_> | I can't find anything that talks about it. I'll ask on the list. |
| 23:49 | <AryehGregor> | volkmar, both bugs should be fixed. (I only commented out input.autocomplete entirely for now, since my test framework can't yet handle what the spec demands.) |
| 23:53 | <volkmar> | AryehGregor: great :) |
| 23:55 | <volkmar> | AryehGregor: and your button.formAction / form.action test seems wrong |
| 23:56 | <volkmar> | you seems to duplicate the wrong behavior from Gecko 1.9.* |
| 23:58 | <AryehGregor> | volkmar, how so? |
| 23:58 | <AryehGregor> | It's supposed to reflect as a URL per spec AFAICT. |
| 23:59 | <volkmar> | AryehGregor: i think it should reflect the content attribute |
| 23:59 | <AryehGregor> | volkmar, it does, as a URL. |
| 23:59 | <volkmar> | which is a DOMString |