| 00:07 | <Dashiva> | hng |
| 00:08 | <Dashiva> | I thought insisting on publishing HTML5 as HTML4 was bad, then I read about HTMLnext.pdf |
| 00:11 | <AryehGregor> | "Silos in the Working Group structure which inhibits alignment" |
| 00:11 | <AryehGregor> | What does that mean? |
| 00:12 | <Dashiva> | It means that SVG reinvents anchors instead of using HTML |
| 00:12 | AryehGregor | does not find any relevant definition of "silo" in the dictionary |
| 00:12 | <AryehGregor> | Is it Microspeak or something? |
| 00:12 | <Dashiva> | No, it's standard |
| 00:13 | <Dashiva> | You have siloing when separate groups/departments/etc don't communicate with each other |
| 00:13 | <AryehGregor> | So it's standard bureaucrat speak, then? |
| 00:14 | <AryehGregor> | Why is HTMLnext.pdf written in bureaucrat jargon instead of technojargon? |
| 00:14 | AryehGregor | grumbles |
| 00:14 | <Dashiva> | Standard anyone-who's-worked-in-an-organization-with-more-than-a-few-hundred-people |
| 00:14 | <AryehGregor> | Right, so bureaucrat-speak. |
| 00:16 | <AryehGregor> | You know, I think I agree with most of HTMLnext.pdf, but I dislike it anyway because of the obnoxious way it's written. |
| 00:16 | <Dashiva> | It could have been the founding document of WHATWG for large parts |
| 00:17 | <Hixie> | it's only 7 years late! |
| 00:17 | <Dashiva> | But it's there, from Microsoft. I'd say that's significant. |
| 00:17 | <Hixie> | http://www.w3.org/2004/04/webapps-cdf-ws/papers/opera.html is the actual founding document |
| 00:17 | <AryehGregor> | Well, it argues in favor of modularization. |
| 00:17 | <Hixie> | (written in html, not pdf) |
| 00:17 | <AryehGregor> | Also emphasizes tests, which the WHATWG . . . has not. |
| 00:18 | <AryehGregor> | "Simply stated, there is evidence of overdesign." +1001 |
| 00:18 | <Dashiva> | Hixie's timeline has, what, 10 years blocked off for writing the test suite? |
| 00:18 | <Hixie> | yeah, what Dashiva said |
| 00:18 | <Hixie> | also, at the time the whatwg was formed, test suites were not controversial -- everyone agreed we needed them |
| 00:18 | <Hixie> | (and still do) |
| 00:18 | <Hixie> | (and work is ongoing) |
| 00:18 | <AryehGregor> | This appears to be arguing that the tests should be written along with the specs, not that we should all agree we want comprehensive test suites and then not write them for seven years and counting. |
| 00:19 | <Hixie> | (the fundamental principles of the WHATWG work however are still not clearly uncontroversial) |
| 00:19 | <Hixie> | AryehGregor: yeah, i don't think anyone disagrees with that position |
| 00:19 | <Hixie> | saying it should happen doesn't make it happen |
| 00:20 | <AryehGregor> | Unless you're a manager at a company who gets to tell your subordinates what to do. :) |
| 00:21 | <AryehGregor> | Or maybe the developers at Microsoft are the ones who decided to write all those tests, I don't know. But they say they'd like to submit them earlier in the process next time, which is nice. |
| 00:21 | <AryehGregor> | Go Microsoft. |
| 00:21 | <webben> | Dashiva: "HTMLnext.pdf"? |
| 00:21 | <Dashiva> | http://twitter.com/html5douche/status/29222926252 |
| 00:21 | <AryehGregor> | (I'm not sure I ever anticipated writing the words "Go Microsoft" without inserting something like like "to hell" in there, but there you have it.) |
| 00:21 | <webben> | ta |
| 00:22 | <Dashiva> | I'm sure there's a more official link somewhere |
| 00:23 | <AryehGregor> | I just used Google. |
| 00:42 | <MikeSmith> | I guess there's no way to try BBEdit for free |
| 00:45 | <Hixie> | AryehGregor: nothing stopping them from submitting them right now, why would they wait until next time? |
| 00:46 | <Hixie> | anyway, i agree that much of what they say is on the ball |
| 00:47 | <Hixie> | and i'm glad they've finally joined the party (?) |
| 00:58 | <MikeSmith> | seems you can download a 30-day trial copy of BBEdit here: http://www.barebones.com/products/bbedit/demo.html |
| 00:59 | <MikeSmith> | appears to have pretty good support for new HTML5 elements |
| 00:59 | <MikeSmith> | can be added through completion and such |
| 01:03 | <nessy> | I'm not sure that document (HTMLnext.pdf) tells me anything new or even proposes a feasible process to fix things |
| 01:03 | <nessy> | I actually think the problem is that something like the WHATWG is missing in the W3C - a collaboration between browser vendors to determine which of the specified stuff will actually go into the browser |
| 01:04 | <nessy> | it's not the individual specs that make a difference - it's the implementation |
| 01:04 | <nessy> | needs a trusted benevolent dictator to some extent ;) |
| 01:04 | <Hixie> | tim is the w3c's benevolent dictator |
| 01:05 | <Hixie> | but he works on the semantic web, not html |
| 01:14 | <MikeSmith> | Tim works on a lot of stuff |
| 01:14 | <MikeSmith> | he's certainly paying a lot of attention to the HTML work |
| 01:15 | <MikeSmith> | the TAG is too |
| 01:16 | <MikeSmith> | nessy: how is that collaboration not happening at the W3C? |
| 01:16 | <MikeSmith> | fully agree the implementation is what matters |
| 01:16 | <MikeSmith> | and that collaboration among the UA implementors is what is needed to make it happen |
| 01:17 | <MikeSmith> | nessy: or to put it in other words, how can the collaboration be made to happen better at the W3C? |
| 01:18 | <MikeSmith> | or what does it seem is preventing from happening the way it should be optimally happening? |
| 01:18 | <nessy> | MikeSmith: the collaboration between UAs is only really now happening again with HTML5 - I was referring to how there wasn't really any concerted progress beforehand, only little bits here and there without a bigger picture for moving HTML5 forward - and Tim seemed like he had lost interest in moving HTML forward and was rather working towards eliminating it |
| 01:18 | <MikeSmith> | ah, OK |
| 01:19 | <MikeSmith> | I can't say I'd agree that Tim is doing anything to work towards eliminating it |
| 01:20 | <nessy> | seeming as Tim is not leading the HTML WG - which to me is the heart of the Web - it just seems that the W3C isn't really the right forum to lead the web - but I don't want to sound unthankful - the W3C has done lots of great stuff ;) |
| 01:20 | <MikeSmith> | I would think Tim's public comments indicate that he doesn't think people should be wedded to the XML syntax |
| 01:20 | <nessy> | s/seeming/seeing/ |
| 01:21 | <MikeSmith> | I don't like that phrase "lead the Web" much |
| 01:21 | <aho> | i like the xml syntax :> |
| 01:21 | <MikeSmith> | personally |
| 01:21 | <MikeSmith> | I think market needs lead the Web |
| 01:21 | <nessy> | I said "leading the HTML WG" |
| 01:21 | <nessy> | ah … hmm... |
| 01:21 | <MikeSmith> | oh, I meant the "the right forum to lead the web" part you said |
| 01:21 | <nessy> | I meant technically |
| 01:22 | <MikeSmith> | I think technically the Web should be led by market needs |
| 01:22 | <nessy> | the market had clearly spoken in 2000 that video on the Web was needed - the only ones listening were Macromedia |
| 01:22 | <MikeSmith> | yep |
| 01:22 | <nessy> | and the same for many other features that did a lot more to the Web than the whole XML craze |
| 01:23 | <nessy> | anyway - I think we're now in a productive phase again and that's great |
| 01:23 | <MikeSmith> | yeah |
| 01:23 | <MikeSmith> | and we have Microsoft increasingly more involved in that productive phase too |
| 01:24 | <MikeSmith> | investing more in the Web platform |
| 01:24 | <MikeSmith> | and Adobe too |
| 01:24 | <MikeSmith> | for that matter |
| 01:27 | <nessy> | and Google :) |
| 01:28 | <MikeSmith> | yeah |
| 01:28 | <aho> | i still want jng back, btw :> |
| 01:29 | <jcranmer> | it would help if there were a standard to replace animated GIFs |
| 01:29 | <aho> | it's pretty annoying that there isn't any lossy image format which also supports alpha |
| 01:29 | <aho> | mng |
| 01:29 | <aho> | <: |
| 01:29 | <jcranmer> | apng |
| 01:30 | <aho> | you don't really want to replace a 5mb gif with a 4mb apng, do you? |
| 01:31 | <Philip`> | I don't really want people to use 5MB animated GIFs at all - that's what video is for |
| 01:31 | <jcranmer> | video is even worse |
| 01:31 | <jcranmer> | shall i use H.264 or Ogg Theora? |
| 01:31 | <aho> | webm |
| 01:35 | <aho> | well, jng would cover some area which isn't covered by other formats |
| 01:35 | <aho> | to be honest it is covered by png32, but it's ridiculously big |
| 01:36 | <aho> | on some page i did recently there was a >300kb png32. it was the only choice. a quantized png8 didn't look any good |
| 01:36 | <aho> | a 70-80kb jng would have worked just fine |
| 01:37 | <aho> | maybe a 50kb one would have worked too |
| 01:38 | <aho> | makes their reasoning sorta funny, really. https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=195280 |
| 01:38 | <aho> | <: |
| 02:36 | <nessy> | MikeSmith: I use TextMate for editing anything |
| 02:36 | <nessy> | including HTML |
| 02:57 | <aho> | MikeSmith, try komodo edit. it's ace :) |
| 09:10 | <zcorpan> | cure list bullets in HTMLnext.pdf |
| 09:10 | <zcorpan> | s/cure/cute/ |
| 11:12 | <annevk> | on my way to TPAC |
| 11:13 | <annevk> | curious about the XML vs HTML topic |
| 11:13 | <annevk> | but mostly looking forward to meeting people |
| 11:15 | <MikeSmith> | annevk: see you there |
| 11:15 | <annevk> | MikeSmith, when are you arriving? |
| 11:16 | <MikeSmith> | I get to the airport at 22:30 |
| 11:16 | <annevk> | ah, I should be there shortly |
| 11:16 | <MikeSmith> | staying at the "Hotel Mercure Brotteaux" |
| 11:17 | <annevk> | according to this email, I'm staying at "HOTEL DES CONGRES" |
| 11:18 | <annevk> | no idea how to get there and no idea how to get from there to TPAC |
| 11:18 | <hsivonen> | annevk: I expect to get there by giving th address to a taxi driver and I expect to walk to TPAC |
| 11:21 | <annevk> | the latter sounds great |
| 11:21 | <hsivonen> | aside: I'm shocked, just, shocked, wow, just, wow at JF talking about my "myopic view" as a figure of speech with a negative connotation when I actually have myopia. |
| 11:21 | <annevk> | I guess I end up doing the former too, though I was hoping to take a bus or something |
| 11:21 | <annevk> | already took a taxi this morning as I was way late and it was pretty boring |
| 11:22 | <annevk> | I wonder if JF is around |
| 11:23 | <annevk> | he has an awesome mustache |
| 11:28 | <MikeSmith> | annevk, hsivonen - I have to drop off. See you both some time tomorrow |
| 11:29 | <annevk> | good trip man |
| 11:30 | <MikeSmith> | cheers |
| 13:46 | <espadrine> | Oh god, css gradients follow different syntax in every browser! And *they all suck*! |
| 13:46 | <espadrine> | Is there a hidden standard somewhere in preparation? |
| 13:55 | <TabAtkinsTPAC> | espadrine: The draft standard at http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-images is the official one, and it's what Firefox follows. |
| 13:55 | <TabAtkinsTPAC> | espadrine: Webkit's gradients were created as an experiment before this draft was written, and in fact inspired the current draft due to their suckiness. |
| 13:55 | <TabAtkinsTPAC> | espadrine: IE's gradients are some horrifying filter abomination, and shall not be discussed further. |
| 13:57 | <TabAtkinsTPAC> | espadrine: Opera doesn't have explicit gradient support, but you can hack it in via SVG backgrounds (which should also work in Webkit and FF, iirc). |
| 14:01 | <TabAtkinsTPAC> | The draft syntax may change somewhat to fix bugs and rough spots that have come up in implementation, particularly regarding transitioning/animating gradients. |
| 15:03 | <annevk> | arrived |
| 15:03 | <annevk> | hsivonen, you around already? |
| 15:07 | <espadrine> | TabAtkinsTPAC: thanks... At least there's one implementation! |
| 15:08 | <espadrine> | TabAtkinsTPAC: for what it's worth, they did quite a good job in removing the cruft from the initial webkit experiment! |
| 15:08 | <TabAtkinsTPAC> | "they" = me |
| 15:08 | <TabAtkinsTPAC> | So thanks! |
| 20:16 | <heycam> | Hixie, yes looks like (re FlieAPI use of sequence) |
| 22:04 | <smaug____> | annevk: Is http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/domcore/raw-file/tip/Overview.html#clone trying to say that cloning documents wouldn't be supported? |
| 22:04 | <smaug____> | Though, when cloning a document "new ownerDocument" would be null |
| 22:20 | <annevk> | smaug____, I think we should support cloning documents |
| 22:20 | <annevk> | smaug____, there's some kind of hairy thing with DocumentType nodes there |
| 22:22 | <annevk> | smaug____, I think the silly thing is that adoptNode() would not work while importNode would |
| 22:23 | <hsivonen> | annevk: have you figured out, by any chance, if there's a way to get food near the hotel at this hour? |
| 22:23 | <annevk> | you have to walk quite a bit unfortunately |
| 22:23 | <annevk> | it's about fifteen minutes walk to the nearest district of kinds and I'm not sure what is open |
| 22:24 | <annevk> | but maybe the reception knows some kind of snack place closer by |
| 22:24 | <annevk> | too bad you just came in |
| 22:24 | annevk | just came back from dinner with the CSS guys |
| 22:24 | <hsivonen> | annevk: thanks. I'll resort to my snack reserve |
| 22:25 | <annevk> | whoa, Maciej is here |
| 22:25 | <annevk> | I guess it makes sense, but still unexpected |
| 22:27 | <hsivonen> | the hotel network is sad. :-( |
| 22:28 | <annevk> | something doesn't work? or the speed? |
| 22:28 | <hsivonen> | drops OpenVPN and ssh over OpenVPN all the time |
| 22:28 | <annevk> | or the weird customized username/password setup? |
| 22:28 | <hsivonen> | that, too |
| 22:28 | <annevk> | ooh, I have not tried VPN yet |
| 22:29 | <annevk> | hopefully VPN works at TPAC |
| 22:29 | <hsivonen> | and the ethernet cable is dead |
| 22:30 | <romeo_> | Pure guys. Where in the world are you? |
| 22:30 | <hsivonen> | romeo_: Lyon, France |
| 22:31 | romeo_ | has never been to France |
| 22:33 | <romeo_> | s/pure/poor/ |
| 22:33 | <romeo_> | English is hard |
| 22:34 | <annevk> | romeo_: |
| 22:34 | <annevk> | euh, sorry about that |
| 22:35 | <annevk> | there's also lots of rain here, but sun is coming Tuesday I'm told |
| 22:43 | <annevk> | g'night all |
| 22:44 | annevk | is gonna try to get eight hours |
| 23:37 | <david_carlisle> | per spec is innerHTML supposed to work in an html5 math element? |
| 23:42 | <Philip`> | david_carlisle: innerHTML seems to be defined on HTMLElement and HTMLDocument, and I assume MathML elements aren't those interfaces, so I'd guess it shouldn't work |
| 23:43 | <Philip`> | (I'm not entirely confident on this though) |
| 23:43 | <Philip`> | (but I can't find anything that indicates it should work) |
| 23:44 | <david_carlisle> | Philip`: doesn't appear to work in FF4 or webkit nightlies, but i was sort of hoping it would |
| 23:49 | <gsnedders> | And then having it on Element just vary it depending upon the HTMLness flag on the owner document? |
| 23:52 | <david_carlisle> | something like that yes |