| 00:13 | <heycam> | jamesr_, you can consider abarth as "internal affairs" then :) |
| 00:13 | <heycam> | where internal affairs isn't aware of Management's nefarious plot |
| 00:14 | <Hixie> | aw man |
| 00:14 | <Hixie> | how did i end up the bad guy here! |
| 00:14 | <Hixie> | i was just following orders! |
| 00:15 | heycam | thinks perhaps we shouldn't talk of this lest tom's hardware write a scathing expose |
| 00:45 | <gsnedders> | http://dev.ckeditor.com/ticket/6666 — yay! |
| 07:55 | <hsivonen> | hober, AryehGregor, zcorpan: Script execution post fixed. thanks |
| 07:55 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: missing favicon acknowledged. thanks. (not fixed yet) |
| 09:51 | <zcorpan> | so for <img src=404>, in ie .complete is false while in gecko/webkit/opera it's true |
| 09:51 | <zcorpan> | afaict the spec sides with ie for that case |
| 09:52 | <zcorpan> | do we want to change the spec? |
| 09:53 | <annevk> | prolly |
| 09:56 | <zcorpan> | it makes .complete less useful though |
| 09:57 | <Ms2ger> | Even less useful? |
| 09:57 | <zcorpan> | yes |
| 09:58 | <zcorpan> | i was using it in my media testsuite and expected it to be false for 404, but now we had to add a workaround :) |
| 09:59 | <annevk> | should it be false for all error status codes? |
| 10:00 | <annevk> | what about a 301 without a Location header? |
| 10:00 | <zcorpan> | "no data could be obtained" http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/complete/embedded-content-1.html#img-error |
| 10:01 | <annevk> | oh, so in that case it ought to just work |
| 10:01 | <annevk> | if the 404 is an image |
| 10:01 | <zcorpan> | actually the status code is not so relevant for <img>, the relevant part is if the body is a valid image |
| 10:01 | <zcorpan> | yeah |
| 10:01 | <annevk> | I was already wondering when Hixie would have changed his mind on this |
| 10:02 | <annevk> | because "we" decided on this behavior long ago |
| 10:02 | <zcorpan> | so an HTML 404 is the same as a "broken" image |
| 10:03 | <annevk> | it's the same as a HTML 200 |
| 10:41 | <annevk> | there's a typo in the novel |
| 10:42 | <annevk> | "He cackled to himself as his committed" s/his/he/ right? |
| 10:42 | <annevk> | or is using "his" some kind of old English I am not familiar with? |
| 10:45 | <jgraham> | No, it's a typo |
| 10:46 | <jgraham> | Did anyone ever mirror the webapps repo in some sensible format? |
| 10:46 | <jgraham> | i.e. git/mercurial |
| 10:47 | <jgraham> | (and keep it up to date)? |
| 10:47 | <MikeSmith> | jgraham: not that I know of |
| 10:47 | <MikeSmith> | if you think it's useful I could set it up at github |
| 10:49 | <jgraham> | MikeSmith: I would find it useful right about now :) |
| 11:24 | <MikeSmith> | jgraham: importing now |
| 11:24 | <MikeSmith> | it's taking a while |
| 11:25 | <jgraham> | MikeSmith: I actually started doing it myself as well. I guess Hixie loves us… |
| 11:25 | <jgraham> | (not to github though, which indeed seems more useful) |
| 11:31 | <MikeSmith> | jgraham: wiil be at https://github.com/sideshowbarker/html5-spec when it's done |
| 11:31 | <MikeSmith> | git⊙gc:sideshowbarker/html5-spec.git |
| 11:31 | <gsnedders> | A git-svn clone for the spec? |
| 11:31 | gsnedders | has one of those locally :P |
| 11:32 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: If you had said that like an hour ago (and uploaded it somewhere sensible) you coudl have saved everyone lots of heartache |
| 11:33 | gsnedders | was writing a five page essay worth 2% of the course… |
| 11:36 | <MikeSmith> | use really small paper |
| 11:42 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: It is likely worth 0% of your final degree. The point of the excerise is to *learn* |
| 11:42 | <jgraham> | Not to accumulate points |
| 11:43 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: I've learnt I've totally forgotten everything I knew about writing essays from school :) |
| 11:43 | <jgraham> | (although the points are useful) |
| 11:45 | <MikeSmith> | the point it to learn how to parrot your instructors' words in such a way that reinforces their egos so they give you higher marks |
| 11:46 | <MikeSmith> | make them see that you understand well how clever they are |
| 11:47 | <Philip`> | Be sure to get a section on pathetic fallacy in there too |
| 11:47 | <Philip`> | That's the main thing I remember from writing essays |
| 14:12 | <jgraham> | Is it me or does the spec allow literal U+0000 through in the foster parenting case? |
| 14:15 | jgraham | files a bug |
| 14:21 | <gsnedders> | I thought U+0000 was handled within the tokenizer so where it goes within the tree constructor is surely irrelevent? |
| 14:21 | gsnedders | hasn't read the spec closely since it was changed for null-handling |
| 14:25 | <jgraham> | No, now the handling is split over the treebuilder and the tokenizer in a slightly ugly way |
| 14:30 | <annevk> | parser changes seem to confuse everyone and satisfy nobody :/ |
| 14:31 | <annevk> | oh, so Apple will keep Java support on Lion? |
| 14:31 | <hsivonen> | annevk: that's because Hixie didn't spec *exactly* the conceptual model I described :-) |
| 14:31 | <hsivonen> | annevk: URL about Java? |
| 14:33 | <hsivonen> | in other parser news, we got another <foo </bar> bug |
| 14:33 | <hsivonen> | (sent over to evang, so nothing special about it. just noting that those bugs do show up) |
| 14:35 | <annevk> | hsivonen, http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2010/11/12openjdk.html |
| 14:35 | <Philip`> | Is there any way the spec could distinguish between cases where content relies on it closing the foo, and where content relies on it not closing the foo? |
| 14:35 | <Philip`> | (like the exact tokeniser state in which the '<' is encountered) |
| 14:36 | <hsivonen> | annevk: cool. Apple contributing their previously proprietary code to OpenJDK is probably the best outcome for all stake holders |
| 14:37 | <hsivonen> | Philip`: I think it would be even more confusing to vary < by state |
| 14:38 | <Philip`> | hsivonen: Maybe increasing compatibility is more important than decreasing confusion |
| 14:38 | <Philip`> | (I don't know if it's really possible to increase compatibility by complexifying the logic, though) |
| 14:39 | <hsivonen> | It would be awesome if we could just make things more complex to make them more compatible :-) |
| 14:40 | <hsivonen> | (that is, making them more complex in whatever random ways :-) |
| 14:42 | <Philip`> | Hmm, random complexity seems unlikely to work, unless we could develop some automatic measure of compatibility and then use a genetic algorithm to evolve the parser algorithm to optimise compatibility |
| 14:43 | <zcorpan> | we could change the parser every week based on the output of the compat measurement |
| 14:44 | <jgraham> | The problem would be measuring compatibility |
| 14:45 | <hsivonen> | I wonder how common it is that sites respond to beta cycle evang by saying that they'll fix the site once the browser is final (as in no longer beta) |
| 14:46 | <hsivonen> | as opposed to fixing the site right away |
| 14:46 | <Philip`> | Maybe they don't want to make changes they can't test, and don't want to install beta browsers for testing since it may disturb their current browser installations |
| 14:47 | <Philip`> | Or maybe they think that if they hold out long enough then you'll revert the browser changes and they won't have to do anything |
| 14:49 | <jgraham> | I wonder what will happen to foreignContent mode (again) |
| 14:49 | <hsivonen> | jgraham: which bug? |
| 14:49 | <jgraham> | hsivonen: Dunno if there was a bug |
| 14:50 | <Philip`> | Re http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2010/11/12openjdk.html : "Apple [...] has recently introduced its magical iPad" - they actually call it magical? |
| 14:50 | <jgraham> | I should have filed one on the changes to end tag handling in the last updates, but I don't recall if I did |
| 14:53 | <hsivonen> | jgraham: would that one get fixed if Hixie adopted the model I've been proposing? |
| 14:53 | <jgraham> | Yeah, I think so |
| 14:54 | <hsivonen> | Philip`: you should watch one of those Stevenote remixes with only the adjectives |
| 14:54 | <hsivonen> | jgraham: let's just do it then |
| 14:54 | <jgraham> | I was vaugely contemplating making an experimental spec change to the model you proposed |
| 14:55 | <jgraham> | Because it seems like the big barrier at this point is that it is a big change and Hixie only has the bandwidth for bugfixes |
| 15:14 | hsivonen | is a bit surprised that https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=587452 hasn't been fixed at Google's end yet |
| 15:15 | <annevk> | smaug____, I made a small update to the XHR tests |
| 15:15 | <annevk> | smaug____, they now include a reference to testharnessreport.js |
| 15:15 | <annevk> | smaug____, that also made http://tc.labs.opera.com/apis/XMLHttpRequest/testrunner.htm possible |
| 15:15 | <annevk> | smaug____, although the way that works is not entirely how I'd like it |
| 15:16 | <smaug____> | annevk: ok, will look at that soon |
| 16:01 | <annevk> | hsivonen, so this OpenJDK is not so open that Google can use it for Android in a slightly different way? |
| 16:17 | <tabatkins> | hsivonen: Do you know if anyone's bugged us about it yet? |
| 16:37 | <annevk> | Ms2ger, html5.org is updated now |
| 16:37 | <Ms2ger> | Thanks |
| 16:37 | <annevk> | Ms2ger, kind of strange that bitbucket.org does not propagate things directly |
| 16:37 | <Ms2ger> | Yeah |
| 16:39 | <annevk> | so the parsing spec should prolly say when <script> is executed and when it isn't |
| 16:40 | <Ms2ger> | I'm waiting for Hixie to give me a flag |
| 16:40 | <Ms2ger> | Currently, it's conditional on being a fragment parser |
| 19:10 | <AryehGregor> | hsivonen, "cross-broser-compatible" http://hsivonen.iki.fi/script-execution/ |
| 19:11 | <Ms2ger> | hsivonen, did all this land for b7? |
| 20:13 | <cying> | CSS nerdy question: |
| 20:13 | <cying> | how do i style the first child of a container's first line in all caps? |
| 20:13 | <tabatkins> | Lines don't have children. |
| 20:14 | <tabatkins> | (At least, not in the element tree, which is where Selectors operate.) |
| 20:14 | <tabatkins> | Or... wait. I think I misparsed your sentence. |
| 20:14 | <tabatkins> | #container > :first-child::first-line should work |
| 20:15 | <tabatkins> | That'll select the ((first child of a container)'s first line), but not the (first child of (a container's first line)). |
| 20:16 | <tabatkins> | And then, of course, text-transform: uppercase;. |
| 20:17 | <tabatkins> | cying: ^^^ |
| 20:17 | <tabatkins> | cying: Also, your request is a heisen-sentence. It can be read either way, and swapping the order of the "first *" clauses is equally ambiguous. |
| 20:18 | <cying> | hehe |
| 20:18 | <cying> | tabatkins: i mean the former not the latter |
| 20:18 | <cying> | ((first child of a container)'s first line) |
| 20:18 | <tabatkins> | K, then my selector will work. |
| 20:18 | <cying> | sadly not working in mobile safari |
| 20:18 | <tabatkins> | That'll be a bug, then. |
| 20:20 | <tabatkins> | What's the failure? It doesn't work at all? It selects more than you think? Less than you think? |
| 20:33 | <cying> | tabatkins: it doesn't work at all |
| 20:33 | <cying> | tabatkins: it selects nothing |
| 20:34 | <annevk> | is the child a block? |
| 20:36 | <cpojer> | hey guys |
| 20:36 | <cpojer> | I have a question about window.onpopstate |
| 20:37 | <cpojer> | I am not clear about what the expected behavior is |
| 20:37 | <cpojer> | in chrome/firefox4 popstates fires for the initial page load |
| 20:37 | <cpojer> | in safari it doesn't |
| 20:37 | <cpojer> | I read this: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Nov/0078.html |
| 20:38 | <cpojer> | but I am not sure I understand it :D |
| 20:38 | <cpojer> | if anyone cares to enlighten me that would be great |
| 20:38 | <Ms2ger> | cpojer, so |
| 20:40 | <cpojer> | so. |
| 20:40 | <Ms2ger> | Say, you click a link |
| 20:40 | <Ms2ger> | http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/text-level-semantics.html#the-a-element |
| 20:40 | <Ms2ger> | Finally, the user agent must follow the hyperlink |
| 20:40 | <Ms2ger> | http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/links.html#following-hyperlinks |
| 20:41 | <cpojer> | wait what? |
| 20:41 | <Ms2ger> | ... must navigate a browsing context to the resulting absolute URL. |
| 20:41 | <Ms2ger> | http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/history.html#navigate |
| 20:42 | <cpojer> | wait sorry, I don't really want to read through all the specs if thats ok |
| 20:42 | <cpojer> | just want to know what the expected behavior for popstate is |
| 20:42 | <cpojer> | should it fire on the initial page load or not |
| 20:42 | <cpojer> | that is, if I navigate to example.com from an empty tab |
| 20:42 | <cpojer> | should it fire popstate or not? |
| 20:42 | <cpojer> | chrome/ff4 do, safari does not |
| 20:42 | <cpojer> | any maybe because its friday night I am not fully able to understand that response in the bug tracker |
| 20:48 | <Ms2ger> | Yes, should fire |
| 20:48 | <cpojer> | ok thanks |
| 21:52 | <zcorpan> | http://www.d.umn.edu/~lcarlson/html5bugchart/20101002/ld/chart1.html is indeed a pretty long description |
| 22:08 | <Hixie> | zcorpan: i wonder why she didn't just put that on the main page, it's more useful than the pie charts! |
| 22:08 | <tabatkins> | Dammit, Hixie, I was just about to say that. |
| 22:09 | <tabatkins> | The information about trends and such is not obvious from the infographic. It's much easier to understand from the description. |
| 22:14 | <annevk> | I can't follow those tables, why is there no summary? |
| 22:17 | <Philip`> | The first table seems to have a typo - INVALID is 6% for 1, LATER is 2% for 5 |
| 22:17 | <zcorpan> | does the typo in the table propagate to the graph? |
| 22:18 | <Philip`> | No |
| 22:18 | <karlcow> | http://okfn.org/projects/annotator/ - Open-Source Annotation Toolkit for Inline, Online Web Annotation |
| 22:26 | <cying> | annevk: it sure is |
| 22:26 | <cying> | annevk: (re: :first-child::first-line) |
| 22:26 | <tabatkins> | data:text/html,<style>#container > :first-child::first-line { color: red; }</style><div id=container>foo foo<p>foo bar<br>bar baz</p> |
| 22:27 | <tabatkins> | cying: Given ^^^, which works on desktop, it's clear that if Mobile Safari isn't doing it, it has a bug. |
| 22:27 | <cying> | ahhhh |
| 22:27 | <cying> | tabatkins: thanks |