| 01:10 | <Hixie> | content-types for binary formats baffle me |
| 01:10 | <Hixie> | or rather, the way people defend them baffles me |
| 01:10 | <Hixie> | (re: the e-mail i'm about to send out replying to a long thread about video mime types last august) |
| 01:11 | <boogyman> | it's taken you this long to formulate a response, or you wished to see the opinion(s) of others |
| 01:15 | <Hixie> | neither |
| 01:15 | <micheil> | Hixie: hey, did you ever say anything about kaazing and how they supposedly invented websockets as they stand at present? |
| 01:15 | <Hixie> | no idea |
| 01:16 | <Hixie> | not sure how they stand at present, in fact :-) |
| 01:16 | <micheil> | "Kaazing basically invented the protocol as it stands now." - Ian Hickson, Google & HTML5 Author |
| 01:16 | <micheil> | http://www.kaazing.com/about/index.html |
| 01:17 | <Hixie> | micheil: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20100131#l-223 |
| 01:17 | <micheil> | looks like they like their patents too; as they seem to be pushing for one relating to using backwards compat. protocols with websockets |
| 01:17 | <Hixie> | (later, http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20100131#l-241 ) |
| 01:18 | <micheil> | Hixie: right, so, it's a pretty big mis-guided quote |
| 01:18 | <Hixie> | how so? |
| 01:18 | <Hixie> | note that the hybi group has basically totally revamped the protocol, so it's kind of a moot point now |
| 01:18 | <Hixie> | as the protocol is nothing like it was then |
| 01:18 | <micheil> | well, the way it reads on their site it's like they are claiming to have invented the protocol as it is at present |
| 01:19 | <micheil> | but there's really a heap more people who have contributed to it |
| 01:19 | <Hixie> | oh, yeah, their site might be misleading *shrug* |
| 01:19 | <Hixie> | really at this point i don't know what the spec looks like |
| 01:19 | <Hixie> | but there aren't that many people who have contributed |
| 01:19 | <Hixie> | er, who had contributed |
| 01:19 | <Hixie> | at the time |
| 01:20 | <Hixie> | isn't the group basically going to do the design abarth proposed now? |
| 01:20 | <micheil> | Hixie: i think so, there are still some against it |
| 01:20 | <Hixie> | as i understand it there are three realistic handshake designs: tls-only, the one i designed based on mcarter's design, and abarth's design |
| 01:20 | <Hixie> | but i'm not really following the work closely, so don't take my word for it |
| 01:23 | <Hixie> | anyone know if annevk is still worknig on the fullscreen cssom thing? |
| 01:24 | <othermaciej> | Hixie: at this point, I don't think the one you designed is secure |
| 01:24 | <othermaciej> | and therefore not realistic |
| 01:24 | <Hixie> | the one with the eight bytes is still secure according to abarth (i spoke to him just earlier today about it) |
| 01:24 | <Hixie> | what his group tested was the upgrade without the 8 bytes |
| 01:25 | <gsnedders> | What eight bytes? |
| 01:25 | <Hixie> | (which we knew wasn't secure; the 8 bytes were mitigation for that) |
| 01:25 | <Hixie> | gsnedders: key3 |
| 01:25 | <Hixie> | and the server's response |
| 01:26 | <othermaciej> | I wouldn't interpret that as "still secure" |
| 01:26 | <othermaciej> | they didn't test one way or the other whether the 8 bytes help, or whether there is a way to work around whatever they do |
| 01:27 | <othermaciej> | however, I still think it is less robust against a variety of threat models than the adam+eric proposal |
| 01:27 | <othermaciej> | at this point I wouldn't really trust it |
| 01:28 | <Hixie> | well i am not advocating it one way or the other |
| 01:28 | <Hixie> | so that's fine :-) |
| 01:28 | <Hixie> | i'm not aware of any attack though, even theoretical |
| 01:33 | <othermaciej> | its security against this intercepting proxy attack depends completely on whether the 8 random bytes break the ability to get intercepting proxies to see subsequent data on the connection as new requests |
| 01:34 | <othermaciej> | (something that Adam et al didn't test but probably should have) |
| 01:39 | <Hixie> | othermaciej: yes |
| 01:40 | <Hixie> | othermaciej: note that for there to be any subsequent data, the 8 bytes have to make it to the server and back to the client; note also that there's no way to distinguish the 8 bytes from the subsequent bytes, so if the 8 bytes get to the server, it seems highly unlikely that the remainder don't either. But indeed, we don't know without testing. |
| 01:40 | <Hixie> | It's academic, anyway, since the group isn't going to use this handshake. |
| 01:40 | <othermaciej> | well, it's still the handshake in current drafts |
| 01:41 | <othermaciej> | what's surprisingly hard is convince the group of the merits of the CONNECT handshake |
| 02:57 | <Hixie> | maybe December 156h refers to December 342? |
| 02:57 | <Hixie> | not sure what that means either tohugh |
| 02:58 | <jcranmer> | obviously, it's base 36 |
| 02:59 | <jcranmer> | so it's December 53,369₁₀ |
| 03:01 | <heycam> | 156 hours into december. i.e. 6:30am on decemeber 1. that's at least a valid date. |
| 03:01 | <heycam> | well, december 1 is a valid date. not sure about decemember. |
| 03:02 | <jcranmer> | since a day is 24 hours, last I checked |
| 03:02 | <jcranmer> | how can 156 hours into December be on December 1? |
| 03:07 | <oojacoboo> | jcranmer: it's called crack cocaine |
| 03:09 | <jcranmer> | <insert politically incorrect joke here> |
| 03:25 | <heycam> | wow, i have no idea |
| 03:26 | <heycam> | more like 12noon on the 7th |
| 03:26 | <oojacoboo> | technically, if you had a time machine... |
| 03:26 | <heycam> | must be all these svg tests o_O |
| 03:27 | <jcranmer> | or maybe we finally invented the 240-hour day |
| 04:09 | <jamesr_> | sounds like websockets is in need of an UPGRADE |
| 04:09 | <jamesr_> | *rimshot* |
| 04:33 | <wirepair> | hehe |
| 04:34 | <wirepair> | jamesr_ i'm assuming you're referring to the issues adamb et. all found? :) |
| 04:34 | <jamesr_> | yeah |
| 04:34 | <wirepair> | yeah i just read the paper, interesting attack |
| 06:02 | <TabAtkins> | MikeSmith: Yo, let's work out where dinner is being had tonight. I know basically nothing about tokyo, so I rely on you suggesting a good place. |
| 06:02 | <MikeSmith> | I can come meet out the Mori Tower |
| 06:03 | <MikeSmith> | either meet you in the lobby downstairs |
| 06:03 | <MikeSmith> | or I can come up to the 26th floor reception |
| 06:03 | <TabAtkins> | lobby downstairs is fine. |
| 06:03 | <MikeSmith> | hai |
| 06:03 | <MikeSmith> | any time is OK for me |
| 06:04 | <MikeSmith> | I tend to eat kind of late-ish usually |
| 06:04 | <TabAtkins> | 6:30? |
| 06:04 | <paul_irish> | go back to that Indian place. |
| 06:04 | <MikeSmith> | heh |
| 06:04 | <MikeSmith> | that place was not too bad |
| 06:04 | <paul_irish> | that cheese appetizer was tremendous. |
| 06:04 | <MikeSmith> | yeah, true |
| 06:04 | <MikeSmith> | TabAtkins: you vegetarian? |
| 06:05 | <TabAtkins> | I've got someone I haven't met before coming to dinner, too, so if we can decide beforehand so I can tell him where to go, that would be nice. Alternately, I just tell him to get to Mori Tower. |
| 06:05 | <TabAtkins> | MikeSmith: Jeezus no. |
| 06:05 | <MikeSmith> | heh |
| 06:05 | <MikeSmith> | TabAtkins: tell him to come to Mori Tower |
| 06:05 | <MikeSmith> | then we can go wherever from there |
| 06:06 | <MikeSmith> | there is a place only two stops away which is great for self-barbecue meat |
| 06:06 | <MikeSmith> | yaki-niku |
| 06:06 | <MikeSmith> | that would be my recommendation |
| 06:06 | <MikeSmith> | it's in Nakameguro |
| 06:06 | <TabAtkins> | Heh, had yaki-niku last night. |
| 06:06 | <MikeSmith> | ah |
| 06:07 | <MikeSmith> | well, this place is better than wherever you went :) |
| 06:07 | <TabAtkins> | What sort of price? |
| 06:08 | <MikeSmith> | around 2200 yen |
| 06:08 | <MikeSmith> | iirc |
| 06:08 | <MikeSmith> | for a course thing |
| 06:08 | <MikeSmith> | deer meat |
| 06:08 | <MikeSmith> | boar meat |
| 06:08 | <MikeSmith> | pheasant |
| 06:08 | <MikeSmith> | other stuff |
| 06:09 | <MikeSmith> | and the manager knows me so she always gives me extra stuff |
| 06:09 | <MikeSmith> | plus they have Ebisu draft |
| 06:09 | <MikeSmith> | plus it's right next to the Meguro river |
| 06:10 | <MikeSmith> | and there's another place nearby that serves the best craft beer in Tokyo by a wide margin |
| 06:10 | <MikeSmith> | Baird's Taphouse |
| 06:10 | <TabAtkins> | Ooh, sounds great. |
| 06:11 | <TabAtkins> | Alex Russell is saying he doesn't want yaki-niku tonight, so if we hit that he won't join us. |
| 06:11 | <MikeSmith> | well, we can find another place |
| 06:12 | <TabAtkins> | Know any good sushi places? |
| 06:12 | <MikeSmith> | sure |
| 06:12 | <MikeSmith> | will cost us a lot more though |
| 06:12 | <TabAtkins> | Eh, dinners are expensed. |
| 06:12 | <TabAtkins> | For us, at least. |
| 06:12 | <MikeSmith> | OK |
| 06:13 | <TabAtkins> | So whatever you're comfortable with. |
| 06:13 | <MikeSmith> | OK |
| 06:24 | <hober> | MikeSmith: had much Hitachino Nest beers? |
| 06:24 | <MikeSmith> | hober: have not heard of that one |
| 06:24 | <hober> | some of the best .jp microbrew I've managed to find in .us |
| 06:24 | <hober> | keep an eye out |
| 06:25 | <MikeSmith> | cool |
| 06:25 | <MikeSmith> | I'll have to figure out where I can find some |
| 06:25 | <MikeSmith> | http://bairdbeer.com/en/taproom/nakameguro-taproom |
| 06:26 | <hober> | oooh |
| 06:26 | <annevk> | Hixie, working on fullscreen got delayed a bit |
| 06:33 | <annevk> | Hixie, at least for another month or so most likely as I have some vacation time I need to use |
| 06:33 | <annevk> | heycam, so if you got time meanwhile... ^^ |
| 06:35 | <annevk> | oh lol, there's an issue on the acknowledgment section of the spec |
| 06:39 | <Hixie> | annevk: k, sounds good |
| 07:07 | <annevk> | http://www.reddit.com/r/WTF/comments/eia6l/us_takes_break_from_attacking_wikileaks_to/ hahaha |
| 07:08 | <annevk> | "There certainly is an irony here." |
| 07:27 | <annevk> | hmm, did Bjoern Hoehrmann just state he's going to fix CSS' grammar problem? |
| 07:27 | <annevk> | where "just" is about six hours ago |
| 07:42 | <heycam> | annevk, I'll see if I get time... |
| 07:45 | <heycam> | TabAtkins, when my Linux machine used to shut down due to overheating, there was usually about 2 seconds between it walling "system is going down now" and my processes starting to get killed. :) |
| 07:45 | <hsivonen> | http://hacks.mozilla.org/2010/12/websockets-disabled-in-firefox-4/comment-page-1/#comment-295447 |
| 07:47 | <othermaciej> | Flash and Java do in fact have the cache poisoning vulnerability (at least as far as I can tell from the paper) |
| 07:48 | <othermaciej> | I believe the vendors are not interested in fixing |
| 07:48 | <othermaciej> | annevk: what grammar problem does CSS have? |
| 07:49 | <annevk> | it being split between prose and productions and not being very clear over all |
| 07:49 | <TabAtkins> | heycam: Heh, kk. Still an invalid bug, of course. |
| 07:50 | <TabAtkins> | heycam: Still seems unlikely that the dude was able to type as much as he did and submit it if they have a similar 2-second warning. |
| 07:50 | <heycam> | TabAtkins, yeah |
| 07:50 | <heycam> | TabAtkins, it's like when you're in primary school doing creative writing, and you write a letter / diary entry where at the end you die and the pen ink trails off the page |
| 07:52 | <TabAtkins> | Hopefully when you do that you don't actually write out "Oh god I'm dying AAAAAaaaaaaaa........." |
| 07:52 | <othermaciej> | ah, now I see |
| 07:53 | <heycam> | TabAtkins, something like that :p |
| 07:56 | <TabAtkins> | annevk: That's what he implied, yeah. |
| 08:45 | <MikeSmith> | TabAtkins: on my way over to the tower |
| 08:45 | <MikeSmith> | see you in the lobby at 6;30 |
| 08:46 | <MikeSmith> | if we fail to find each other somehow, my mobile number is 080-5009-8161 |
| 08:50 | <TabAtkins> | kk |
| 09:16 | <phrearch> | hi |
| 09:16 | <annevk> | hoi |
| 09:17 | <phrearch> | hoi :) |
| 09:17 | <boogyman> | what up doc |
| 09:17 | <phrearch> | i just read about the websocket insecurity problem. any idea how long it will take to fix it? |
| 09:17 | <annevk> | well, the plan always has been to change the handshake |
| 09:18 | <annevk> | it's just that the IETF is slow making up its mind |
| 09:18 | <phrearch> | aha, so the ietf has to approve it first? |
| 09:19 | <annevk> | I think the idea at this point is to wait for rough consensus on the IETF hybi list, yes |
| 09:19 | <annevk> | not sure about approving |
| 09:20 | <phrearch> | how serious is this bug really? all i understood of it was its possible to serve an attacker's version of a js file, instead of the one expected |
| 09:20 | <annevk> | you don't think that's serious? |
| 09:20 | <phrearch> | trying to think of worse-case-scenarios :) |
| 09:20 | <phrearch> | yea, thats serious enough |
| 09:23 | <phrearch> | i guess it makes it possible to send form data to an arbitrary site, without the user noticing it |
| 09:24 | <annevk> | e.g. stealing all your online email |
| 09:29 | <jgraham> | Yeah, the deal is that it's a hugely serious hole if you happen to be behind an affected proxy |
| 09:29 | <jgraham> | The bad news is that there is nothing you can do to protext yourself apart from not being behind such a proxy |
| 09:29 | <jgraham> | *protect |
| 09:31 | <jgraham> | Disabling websockets is good because it reduces the number of attack vectors, but it doesn't close the hole entirely, since flash and java are both vectors and you can be affected if another user behind the same proxy is used as the vector |
| 09:31 | <jgraham> | s/as/to provide/ |
| 09:39 | <phrearch> | what kind of proxys are vulnerable? |
| 09:42 | <phrearch> | i read that its about proxys that dont interpret the update handshake correctly, but doesnt that append on the implementation? |
| 09:42 | <phrearch> | just trying to understand it. im a bit of a noob to networking tech |
| 09:44 | <jgraham> | Yeah, aiui it is a bug in the proxies that makes them vunerable |
| 09:45 | <phrearch> | so suppose i have a server at some provider, then all the proxies in between can introduce this security risk? |
| 09:46 | <phrearch> | is it possible to know how many proxies are in between, and what kind? |
| 09:46 | <othermaciej> | regular proxies that are actually configured in your browser don't have this issue |
| 09:47 | <othermaciej> | only certain intercepting/transparent proxies, which catch http traffic without clients knowing about it |
| 09:47 | <phrearch> | aha |
| 09:47 | <othermaciej> | typically they exist only in "enterprise" setups with a firewall |
| 09:49 | <phrearch> | ah well, by the time this websocket app is finished, it'll be fixed already a long time :) |
| 09:50 | <phrearch> | i read that ff4 still can have ws enabled by switching it on manually |
| 09:50 | <phrearch> | im trying to come up with a sane routing system for my websocket calls. |
| 09:50 | <phrearch> | like applying the same kind of urls as for regular http calls |
| 09:51 | <jgraham> | Yes, it will also be pref-enabled (default:off) in Opera |
| 09:51 | <phrearch> | well, glad it can be re-enabled for devving |
| 09:58 | <annevk> | do browsers have javascript array limits of some kind? |
| 09:58 | <annevk> | I noticed there are some problems with the encoding data I'm getting back |
| 09:59 | <annevk> | it seems the array of objects is losing members along the way or something like that |
| 09:59 | <jgraham> | What kind of limits did you have in mind? |
| 10:00 | <jgraham> | You can only have 2**32 - 1 items in the array |
| 10:01 | <jgraham> | But I guess that is not the limit you are hitting |
| 10:05 | <annevk> | not at all :/ |
| 10:05 | <annevk> | I guess there is a bug in the code somewhere |
| 10:14 | <annevk> | oops lol, found it |
| 10:14 | <annevk> | data is correct, made an error with printing |
| 10:45 | <Workshiva> | I'm trying to think of an example of a required attribute, but I can't think of any |
| 10:45 | <annevk> | <meta> requires at least one right? |
| 10:45 | <Workshiva> | Yeah, but not a specific one in all cases |
| 10:45 | <annevk> | maybe <map> requires ID? |
| 10:46 | <moo_> | not related, but does <script> allow class="" ? |
| 10:46 | <annevk> | would make sense to me |
| 10:46 | <annevk> | moo_, it does |
| 10:46 | <Workshiva> | Everything allows class, doesn't it? |
| 10:46 | <moo_> | annevk: thx |
| 10:46 | <annevk> | Workshiva, right |
| 10:46 | <Workshiva> | annevk: You were right about map, thanks |
| 11:04 | <hsivonen> | kudos to david_carlisle for being the first to mention CORS on xml-dev |
| 11:09 | <hsivonen> | annevk: is there some kind of Cross-Site Requests for Dummies publication that explain the threat model, related issues and solutions related to cross-origin loads? |
| 11:09 | <annevk> | no, but there should be |
| 11:10 | <hsivonen> | If there was one, I'd drop the link on xml-dev, but I don't have the time to write one right now |
| 11:10 | <annevk> | didn't realize until yesterday that list was still active |
| 11:16 | <david_carlisle> | hsivonen: well only 'cause i was hanging around here and thought you lot would would be too scared to stick your head above the xml-dev parapet |
| 11:17 | <david_carlisle> | I think it was annevk who mentioned it here? |
| 11:17 | <hsivonen> | david_carlisle: I'm not scared. I'm just usually too busy to delurk or even read what's going on there. |
| 11:18 | <david_carlisle> | :-) |
| 11:21 | <david_carlisle> | By the way is the cors aware xmlhttpwhatever implemented in the current round of browsers, ie could someone put up a demo of xml being loaded cross site and have it work? |
| 11:24 | <Philip`> | http://www.w3.org/Security/wiki/Comparison_of_CORS_and_UMP#Implementation_Data may be relevant |
| 11:25 | <david_carlisle> | thanks |
| 12:12 | <hsivonen> | was this pasted here already: http://markmail.org/message/taujq5vzj7ttlrh2 ? |
| 12:14 | <jgraham> | hsivonen: Don't feed the troll? |
| 12:16 | <jgraham> | Although maybe if he tried using a web browser rather than just bitching about how they are holding back all that is good and holy and XML, he would be able to get a correct definition for "script kiddie" |
| 12:16 | <beowulf> | that's a nice thing to say, who is this chap? |
| 12:23 | <annevk> | Kurt Cagle -- XForms fanboy |
| 12:23 | <annevk> | or something like that |
| 12:27 | <annevk> | hober, http://www.mysociety.org/2010/12/08/job-advert-developers/ via berjon on twitter |
| 13:01 | <karlcow> | http://www.guardian.co.uk/info/developer-blog/2010/nov/25/six-development-lessons |
| 13:23 | <annevk> | "And would solution A or B require the least changes?" |
| 13:23 | <annevk> | or... there's no problem, no changes required! |
| 13:55 | <annevk> | omg JSON requires double quotes?! |
| 13:55 | <annevk> | lolz |
| 13:55 | <zcorpan> | what? |
| 13:55 | <zcorpan> | oh |
| 13:56 | <zcorpan> | yes |
| 13:57 | <annevk> | trailing space was also too much |
| 14:03 | <annevk> | gotta love JSON |
| 14:05 | <Philip`> | Getting interoperability on the current format is hard enough, so it's good they didn't add additional redundant syntax like different quotes |
| 16:31 | <karlcow> | http://www.xtranormal.com/watch/7991991/ |
| 16:31 | <karlcow> | We are the first to implement the WebSockets |
| 16:39 | <hober> | annevk: that sounds cool, but requires UK residency |
| 17:02 | <jgraham> | hober: Nothing wrong with being a UK resident. |
| 17:02 | <jgraham> | Well apart from the government of course |
| 17:05 | <Philip`> | And the weather |
| 17:05 | <Philip`> | And the people who continually talk about the weather |
| 17:06 | <david_carlisle> | http://xkcd.com/831/ |
| 17:38 | <annevk> | encodings are terrible |
| 17:38 | <annevk> | terrible |
| 17:38 | <annevk> | terrible oh so terrible |
| 17:38 | <annevk> | and this only covers 8bit |
| 17:38 | <annevk> | 5 browsers, 300 labels, 155 distinct mappings from bytes to characters |
| 17:39 | <annevk> | 187 groups of label aliases |
| 17:39 | <annevk> | 107 if I ignore labels that a browser would normally not recognize |
| 17:40 | <annevk> | I guess the other word here is insane |
| 17:40 | <annevk> | and a visualization problem |
| 17:48 | <AryehGregor> | "Your suggestion is founded on aesthetical reasoning. HTML is ugly." |
| 17:48 | <AryehGregor> | I vote that we adopt that as a WHATWG motto. |
| 17:49 | <annevk> | krijnh, ^^ |
| 18:04 | <annevk> | http://www.nrc.nl/economie/article2647862.ece/Wikipedia_pionnen_Shell_op_alle_niveaus_politiek_Nigeria -- Wikileaks is now known as Wikipedia... |
| 18:05 | <annevk> | only in headlines, for now ;p |
| 18:06 | <annevk> | from the feed it seems they got it right originally and then someone "fixed" it |
| 18:08 | <othermaciej> | I think I would be creeped out by a "Personal Appeal from Julian Assange" |
| 18:08 | <annevk> | he lacks the stare for that to work |
| 18:08 | <annevk> | though the new site included a picture of him |
| 18:09 | <Rik`> | it's really silly that when you give to wikipedia, they don't close the banner |
| 18:10 | <AryehGregor> | It's really silly that when you close it every single time, it still pops up again. |
| 18:10 | <Rik`> | it doesn't for me |
| 18:10 | <AryehGregor> | I must have donated thousands of dollars' worth of volunteer programming time to Wikipedia, stop bothering me. |
| 18:10 | <Rik`> | I had to close it on en.w.o and fr.w.o but only once |
| 18:10 | <AryehGregor> | Maybe I'm seeing it on multiple sites, or browsers, but I've sure closed it an awful lot more than once. |
| 18:10 | <annevk> | now I get "Please read: A personal appeal from Wikipedia author Lilaroja" |
| 18:10 | <annevk> | she looks more friendly |
| 18:11 | <annevk> | I usually just scroll down... |
| 18:11 | <AryehGregor> | The Jimmy Wales ones were better, I think. |
| 18:11 | <hsivonen> | Rik`: it they closed it, you'd miss Jimbo's next photo or the new non-Jimbo person |
| 18:11 | <Philip`> | Lilaroja wrote Wikipedia? |
| 18:11 | <Philip`> | Must have taken him/her a long time |
| 18:11 | <jgraham> | AryehGregor: You could donate a few more dollars of time to fix it :) |
| 18:12 | <annevk> | Philip`, couple of monkeys and infinite time |
| 18:12 | <AryehGregor> | I'm getting Sue Gardner. They could have used a better picture. |
| 18:12 | <AryehGregor> | The Jimbo pictures are great. He's really photogenic. |
| 18:12 | <jamesr_> | i use https://chrome.google.com/extensions/detail/idkjdjficifbfjjkdkiimioljbloddpl |
| 18:12 | <AryehGregor> | Plus he's famous and rich. |
| 20:20 | <zcorpan> | gsnedders: i got an error from your outliner, <type 'exceptions.TypeError'>: argument to reversed() must be a sequence |
| 20:20 | <gsnedders> | zcorpan: known bug… |
| 20:21 | <gsnedders> | zcorpan: I am frequently reminded of this, and frequently forget and do something more interesting than fix it :P |
| 20:21 | <zcorpan> | does the bug manifest itself also with the other input method? |
| 20:23 | <gsnedders> | no |
| 20:23 | <gsnedders> | This is why I didn't panic and fix it straight away :P |
| 20:24 | <zcorpan> | not convinced you would have fixed it anyway :P |
| 20:24 | <gsnedders> | Yeah, true. |
| 20:26 | <gsnedders> | zcorpan: You know me too well. |
| 20:26 | <gsnedders> | It's kinda sad. :P |
| 20:28 | <alohci> | Hi. If the formOwner of a label doesn't match the formOwner of the a submit button that it labels, and the user clicks on the label on a platform that would cause the submit button to fire, which form would be submitted, the owner of the label or the owner of the submit button |
| 20:56 | <zcorpan> | alohci: clicking a label activates the label's associated control |
| 20:57 | <zcorpan> | though buttons shouldn't have <label>s since the button text is the label |
| 20:58 | <alohci> | that's not invalid though, is it? |
| 20:59 | <alohci> | I'm trying to establish what use the form content attribute is on the label element. It doesn't seem to do anything. |
| 21:02 | <zcorpan> | yeah it might not be useful for anything |
| 21:07 | <zcorpan> | http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/hybi/current/msg05083.html - what do y'all think, should we kill cookies in websockets? (opera supports cookies for websockets, haven't checked other browsers) |
| 21:08 | zcorpan | goes to eat a cookie |
| 21:08 | <Hixie> | i'm fine with killing cookies in websockets, but then i basically never use cookies anyway :-) |
| 21:08 | <Hixie> | localStorage + custom channel is fine imho |
| 21:10 | <zcorpan> | seems likely that cookies will just bloat the handshake 99% of the time |
| 21:12 | <zcorpan> | (and you don't need to use cookies yourself for cookies to bloat everything, you just need to use some ads or statistics service or a number of other things) |
| 21:34 | <annevk> | Discovery Channel is using the slogan "Ignorance is bliss" |
| 21:34 | <annevk> | color me surprised |
| 21:49 | <oojacoboo> | are there any plans to introduce things like min-top: for positioning |
| 21:50 | <oojacoboo> | this would be an awesome style for fixed positioned elements! |
| 21:52 | <oojacoboo> | or even something like... margin: min(10%, 2em); padding: max(5%, 20px); width: calc(80% - 2em); |
| 21:52 | <oojacoboo> | that's suffice for most all uses |
| 21:58 | <Ms2ger> | oojacoboo, http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-values/#the-calc-min-and-max-functions |
| 21:59 | <oojacoboo> | doooooood |
| 21:59 | <oojacoboo> | any support yet? |
| 22:03 | <oojacoboo> | Ms2ger? |
| 22:03 | <Ms2ger> | I doubt it |
| 22:03 | <oojacoboo> | :/ |
| 22:04 | <oojacoboo> | it's always the good stuff that lacks support |
| 22:13 | <annevk> | hmm, no more encoding stuff after all I guess |
| 22:13 | <annevk> | my brain is fried |
| 22:13 | <annevk> | I wonder if that was the reason I stopped looking into it a year ago |
| 22:18 | <karlcow> | annevk: Accept your mime type. |
| 22:20 | <annevk> | this stuff is deeper than mime man |
| 22:21 | <annevk> | hmm, I fail at completing this pun |
| 22:21 | <annevk> | but encodings are distinct |
| 22:51 | <jgraham> | zcorpan: Die cookies, die! |
| 22:51 | <jgraham> | Or "yes I am happy to kill them with WS", if you prefer |
| 22:51 | <karlcow> | https://blogs.apache.org/foundation/entry/the_asf_resigns_from_the |
| 22:52 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: I was going to own that outliner code bu you never gave it to me. Not that I have a great track record of long term maintainance of side projects |
| 23:12 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: it's a side-project of a side-project |
| 23:12 | <gsnedders> | Just the most successful part of the projects collectively |
| 23:13 | <mgdm> | gsnedders: outliner? /me is interested if it means what he thinks it means |
| 23:13 | <gsnedders> | mgdm: http://gsnedders.html5.org/outliner/ |
| 23:13 | <mgdm> | ah, not quite what I had in mind, but cool |
| 23:14 | mgdm | is apparently the lead dev on http://gnome-outliner.sf.net, but that's by virtue of being the last to commit |
| 23:14 | <mgdm> | s/-// |
| 23:30 | <zcorpan> | http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-web-perf/2010Dec/0015.html |
| 23:45 | <saba> | when would you guys say that HTML5 is supported by all major browsers' latest versions? |
| 23:45 | <Rik`> | one day |
| 23:46 | <saba> | Rik`: probably, let's hope. Any date? :-) |
| 23:46 | <saba> | or rather month. |
| 23:46 | <Dashiva> | It's more interesting to ask that question for each feature |
| 23:46 | <Rik`> | who cares? |
| 23:46 | <Rik`> | like Dashiva said |
| 23:47 | <saba> | Dashiva: yes, why I ask here is because I believe (or want to find out) that there would be some knowledgeable speculations in this channel |
| 23:48 | <zcorpan> | an extended subset of html5 is already supported by all major browsers' latest versions |
| 23:48 | <saba> | zcorpan: interesting, do you know if that includes web storage features? |
| 23:48 | <Rik`> | saba: http://caniuse.com might help you |
| 23:49 | <zcorpan> | saba: it includes localStorage |
| 23:49 | <saba> | Rik`: wonderful, thanks :-) |
| 23:50 | <saba> | zcorpan: ok, I'll read more about that. Thanks! |
| 23:51 | <zcorpan> | saba: 'extended subset' is a subtle magic phrase which can mean anything since the subset can be the empty set ;) |
| 23:51 | <zcorpan> | saba: so it was true in 2004 as well |