| 00:16 | <zewt> | would anyone disagree with defining a "stable specification" as one which will not change in backwards-incompatible ways |
| 00:17 | <zewt> | (compared with other metrics, like "not changing very fast") |
| 00:17 | <gsnedders> | zewt: I don't think so. |
| 00:18 | <gsnedders> | ojan: I'm pretty certain the spec says undefined, quite clearly. |
| 00:18 | <zewt> | the context is when it's reasonable to deprefix implementations--I'd say when the spec is stable (by the above definition), the implementation implements a usable subset of that spec, and doesn't implement anything not in the spec (unless it's prefixed itself) |
| 00:19 | <gsnedders> | But when is it stable by the above definition? That's hard to judge :) |
| 00:19 | <zewt> | the judgement of the editor, i'd say |
| 00:50 | <heycam> | gsnedders, see my mail that I just sent to public-script-coord -- I think "var" without an assignment won't shadow the named property, unfortunately |
| 00:51 | <gsnedders> | heycam: No, it's almost 1am and I have better things to do :P |
| 00:51 | <heycam> | gsnedders, as if! |
| 00:52 | <gsnedders> | I have friends! |
| 00:52 | <gsnedders> | Real ones, too! |
| 00:53 | <zewt> | get out. |
| 03:40 | <MikeSmith> | other than the proposals for an inputmode-like attribute and translate attribute, are there any other proposals for new attributes that have much traction? |
| 06:54 | <zcorpan> | wait, so chrome also detects utf-8? |
| 06:59 | zcorpan | can't reproduce |
| 06:59 | zcorpan | finds from reverse engineering that opera needs 11 valid byte sequences |
| 07:01 | <zcorpan> | oh, i need to choose "auto detect" in chrome |
| 07:11 | <zcorpan> | Hixie: http://lists.whatwg.org/listinfo.cgi doesn't work |
| 08:12 | <MikeSmith> | annevk: can you give me write access to the https://bitbucket.org/ms2ger/specification-data repo? |
| 08:12 | <MikeSmith> | or do I need to bug Ms2ger? |
| 09:05 | <MikeSmith> | despite what the HTML spec claims, it seems to me its current definition of "URL" does not violate anything in RFC 3986 |
| 09:07 | <annevk> | what's your bitbucket account MikeSmith? |
| 09:07 | <annevk> | MikeSmith: oh, it seems Ms2ger has to do it, I'm no admin for that repository |
| 09:08 | <Ms2ger> | Hmm? |
| 09:08 | <annevk> | Ms2ger: add MikeSmith to specification-data or me as admin |
| 09:08 | <MikeSmith> | annevk: sideshowbarker |
| 09:09 | <MikeSmith> | context is that for the URL spec, I added some specs to references.json |
| 09:09 | <MikeSmith> | and some terms to xrefs/network/url.json |
| 09:09 | <Ms2ger> | Should all be admins now |
| 09:09 | <MikeSmith> | thx |
| 09:11 | <annevk> | sweet |
| 09:12 | <annevk> | in other news, Opera will be removing support for windows-sami-2, tcvn, and viettcvn |
| 09:12 | <annevk> | not sure what release |
| 09:12 | <MikeSmith> | what's tcvn? |
| 09:12 | <MikeSmith> | a vietnamese encoding? |
| 09:14 | MikeSmith | attempts a push |
| 09:18 | <annevk> | MikeSmith: yeah |
| 09:20 | <MikeSmith> | OK, just pushed https://bitbucket.org/ms2ger/specification-data/changeset/09fda5dc9e13 |
| 09:21 | <MikeSmith> | I noticed that there is a RFCs.json file, but I assumed that's just there for purposes of being copied from |
| 09:21 | <MikeSmith> | so I copied data for the needed RFCs over from that to references.json |
| 09:22 | <MikeSmith> | needed ones being RFC3987, RFC3986, and RFC2781 |
| 09:22 | <MikeSmith> | for IRIs, URIs, and UTF-16 |
| 09:23 | <MikeSmith> | which are needed for defining what a valid URL is - http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/urls.html#terminology-0 |
| 09:23 | <Ms2ger> | Yes, the RFC files is just the data I used to generate HTML's references |
| 09:24 | <annevk> | MikeSmith: I think we might end up with a slightly more complicated definition |
| 09:24 | <annevk> | MikeSmith: or simpler even, because that definition is quite specific to HTML |
| 09:25 | <annevk> | MikeSmith: e.g. in XMLHttpRequest or CSS usage it does not matter what the resource is encoded as |
| 09:25 | <MikeSmith> | annevk: OK |
| 09:26 | <annevk> | <style>body{background:url(x?è)}</style><a href="x?è">...</a> are two different URLs in a windows-1252 encoded resource... |
| 09:26 | <MikeSmith> | but for now I am really just at the point of copying over what we need from abarth URL-parsing draft and that Terminology part of the URL section of the HTML spec |
| 09:27 | <annevk> | kk |
| 09:27 | <MikeSmith> | I suppose I ought to get this pushed to dvcs.w3.org at some point |
| 09:28 | <MikeSmith> | annevk: maybe you can do a sanity check on what I have at this point? |
| 09:28 | <MikeSmith> | before I push it |
| 09:28 | <annevk> | MikeSmith: nah just go for it |
| 09:29 | <annevk> | MikeSmith: I think we're at least a month and a half away from me having time |
| 09:29 | <annevk> | (for working with you on it) |
| 09:30 | <annevk> | btw, Opera is currently not removing the viscii encoding as there are email clients out there using it, including Gecko |
| 09:30 | <annevk> | also single-octet, Vietnamese |
| 09:32 | <Ms2ger> | \o/ |
| 09:34 | <annevk> | sorry not "using", supporting |
| 09:35 | <annevk> | and if it was my call we would remove it, but Peter wants to tread carefully |
| 09:45 | <annevk> | haha, via ojan http://www.astrodigital.org/space/stshorse.html |
| 09:46 | <annevk> | comment along with it: "This accurately describes how many features of the web platform got where they are today." |
| 09:52 | <annevk> | Ms2ger: aah |
| 09:53 | <annevk> | Ms2ger: I guess I can take a stab at updating your branched copy |
| 09:54 | <Ms2ger> | I'm looking |
| 09:54 | <annevk> | ooh, that's in a separate branch? |
| 09:54 | <annevk> | kk |
| 09:58 | <zcorpan> | is anything on the web platform actually derived from a horse's ass? |
| 10:03 | <jgraham> | Little known fact: The glue that holds the platform together is derived from boiled horse arse. |
| 10:37 | <MikeSmith> | Ms2ger: btw, Berjon tells be you were asking about write access on the dvcs testframework repos |
| 10:37 | <MikeSmith> | I will set that up for you as soon as i get back home (I'm on a train now getting close to Shinjuku station and need to drop off in 5 minutes) |
| 10:45 | <annevk> | MikeSmith: I forgot to ask you about the book |
| 10:45 | <MikeSmith> | oh shit |
| 10:46 | <MikeSmith> | yeah |
| 10:46 | <annevk> | MikeSmith: are you in the office tomorrow and can you send it then? |
| 10:46 | <MikeSmith> | probably not going to the office but I will ask somebody there to package it up and send it |
| 10:46 | <MikeSmith> | I think somebody will be there tomorrow |
| 10:47 | <MikeSmith> | today was actually still pretty much a holiday here -- most people won't be back to work til tomorrow |
| 10:48 | <annevk> | more holidays than golden week in Japan? |
| 10:48 | <annevk> | crazy |
| 11:01 | <Ms2ger> | MikeSmith: ta |
| 11:39 | <annevk> | should I file https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=690225#c30 as a new bug? |
| 11:39 | <annevk> | or just be patient? |
| 11:40 | <Ms2ger> | No idea, I can't access it |
| 12:06 | <annevk> | someone online who can explain HTTP auth in combination with XHR to me? sick... |
| 12:06 | <annevk> | euh, meant to autocomplete sicking |
| 12:36 | <annevk> | euhm why did Alexander Pechtold retweet Newt Gingrich? |
| 12:36 | annevk | wonders whether he missed something important |
| 14:11 | <annevk> | Chrome does not support iso-2022-jp? |
| 14:15 | <annevk> | it does in the menu |
| 14:16 | <annevk> | just not listed here: http://src.chromium.org/viewvc/chrome/trunk/deps/third_party/icu46/source/data/mappings/ucmlocal.mk |
| 14:16 | <annevk> | confusing |
| 14:22 | annevk | filed http://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=109120 |
| 14:39 | <hsivonen> | hmm. document.write("foo"); location.href = "something"; document.write("bar"); |
| 14:40 | <Ms2ger> | No, I don't think I want to know :) |
| 14:40 | gsnedders | laughs somewhat evily |
| 14:42 | <gsnedders> | annevk: That doesn't include any purely algorithmic encodings |
| 14:42 | <gsnedders> | annevk: That's just a list of those that have mapping tables |
| 14:44 | <annevk> | sure |
| 14:44 | <annevk> | but all other encodings are mentioned there |
| 14:47 | <gsnedders> | GB18030 is probably supported and not mentioned. |
| 14:48 | <annevk> | it is mentioned |
| 14:48 | <annevk> | just with a space after GB |
| 14:48 | <hsivonen> | whoa. it seems that under some circumstances, where doc.write() should imply doc.open(), it doesn't in chrome |
| 14:48 | <annevk> | but does in Safari? |
| 14:49 | <hsivonen> | I'm on Linux here. let's see |
| 14:49 | <annevk> | willing to run a URL through Safari :) |
| 14:49 | gsnedders | can't read |
| 14:49 | <annevk> | fyi: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-reschke-http-status-308 |
| 14:50 | <annevk> | beverloo: is there an open bug on WebKit being the only browser still using UTS22 alias/label matching? |
| 14:51 | <annevk> | beverloo: everyone else does trim leading/trailing whitespace, ASCII case-insensitive |
| 14:51 | <hsivonen> | huh. safari is even more broken |
| 14:51 | <beverloo> | No results for "UTS22" on either Chromium or WebKit |
| 14:51 | <hsivonen> | http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/1292 works in Chrome but not in Safari |
| 14:51 | <beverloo> | I honestly wouldn't know if that's been reported |
| 14:52 | <annevk> | maybe there's a space |
| 14:52 | <hsivonen> | odd. now the case that failed in Chrome started working |
| 14:55 | <hsivonen> | to its credit, GB18030 is a rough ASCII superset and an UTF |
| 14:55 | <hsivonen> | which makes it suck less than UTF-16 |
| 14:55 | <annevk> | it's GBK plus 4 byte fun |
| 14:55 | <annevk> | iirc |
| 14:56 | <hsivonen> | (suck less for interchange that is; it sucks for in-memory use, of course) |
| 14:56 | <gsnedders> | hsivonen: That's about all that's nice about it, though |
| 14:57 | <gsnedders> | annevk: the 4 byte fun is really fun, though, because it isn't just a continuous algorithmic mapping from 4 byte sequences to codepoints |
| 14:57 | <gsnedders> | annevk: it's continuous, starting from the first 4 byte sequence, but excluding anything in GBK. |
| 15:00 | <annevk> | yeah |
| 15:00 | <annevk> | beverloo: cannot find it either |
| 15:03 | <hsivonen> | hmm. I see nothing in the spec saying that document.write() shouldn't imply document.open() when called on an aborted document |
| 15:03 | <annevk> | man |
| 15:04 | <annevk> | that we're still figuring out document.write() |
| 15:04 | <annevk> | such a shame |
| 15:05 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: could you, please, add the HTTP header to disable the IE XSS filter on the live DOM viewer? modifying IE's settings again and again is really annoying |
| 15:12 | <crankharder> | this page mentions there's a flag in the DOM to tell whether the browser is on/offline. http://diveintohtml5.info/offline.html -- what is that flag? |
| 15:13 | <hasather> | crankharder: window.navigator.onLine |
| 15:14 | <crankharder> | ty |
| 15:16 | <crankharder> | hasather: dunno, can't get that to change. disconnecting wifi and making a request still shows true |
| 15:17 | <hasather> | crankharder: it reflects the offline setting in your browser |
| 15:25 | <hsivonen> | looks like Adobe, a font company, is still using bitmaps instead of real fonts for blog titles... |
| 15:26 | <astearns> | link? |
| 15:26 | <hsivonen> | astearns: e.g. http://blogs.adobe.com/accessibility/2012/01/wcag-2-0-techniques-for-pdf.html |
| 15:27 | <astearns> | thanks, I'll raise some hell :) |
| 15:27 | <astearns> | ah, cufon |
| 15:30 | <crankharder> | hasather: k, well there must be a different flag that detects whether to use the cache or not |
| 15:31 | <annevk> | "by AWK" |
| 15:31 | <annevk> | that's pretty close to AvK |
| 15:37 | <crankharder> | my app manifest looks like this: http://pastie.org/3125389 -- /offline contains a single alert, but when viewing / while offline that alert is executed 3 times. why? |
| 16:00 | <AryehGregor> | Ms2ger, what's the status on bug 647323 (translating testharness.js tests to mochitests)? |
| 16:00 | <Ms2ger> | I've started on it again this week |
| 16:00 | <AryehGregor> | I'm supposed to write testharness.js tests and also get them into Gecko, it seems. |
| 16:00 | <AryehGregor> | Excellent. |
| 16:01 | <Ms2ger> | (I hope nobody's going to take a close look at my python code) |
| 16:01 | AryehGregor | does an hg pull on his mozilla-central checkout that was last updated months ago |
| 16:01 | <jgraham> | Ooh, there's a sentence that sounds full of win |
| 16:02 | <Ms2ger> | What, about my python code? :) |
| 16:02 | <jgraham> | I was thinking of AryehGregor's sentence a couple of lines above :) |
| 16:02 | <Ms2ger> | Oh :) |
| 16:03 | <AryehGregor> | Well, I don't expect to do any of the actual work translating from testharness.js to mochitests. |
| 16:03 | <AryehGregor> | Which is why I'm poking Ms2ger. |
| 16:03 | <hsivonen> | AryehGregor: so Mozilla hired you to write specs and tests? |
| 16:04 | <AryehGregor> | hsivonen, yes. |
| 16:04 | <hsivonen> | AryehGregor: congrats |
| 16:04 | <AryehGregor> | Thanks. |
| 16:04 | <hsivonen> | and hooray for whoever decided to hire spec/test writers |
| 16:05 | <Ms2ger> | ^That |
| 16:05 | <annevk> | is Ms2ger getting a job too? |
| 16:05 | <Ms2ger> | I'm too lazy to get a job |
| 16:06 | <Ms2ger> | (Instead doing the same work in my free time) |
| 16:06 | <hober> | AryehGregor: congrats! that's awesome |
| 16:06 | <annevk> | Ms2ger: you don't require money? :) |
| 16:07 | <Ms2ger> | Nah, I live in a hole in the ground |
| 16:07 | <jgraham> | He only needs to be connected to AC power |
| 16:07 | hober | knew Ms2ger was a hobbit |
| 16:08 | <AryehGregor> | Ms2ger, so your testharnessreport.js only registers known failures based on the test name, not the assert name too? |
| 16:08 | <annevk> | hober: nice haha |
| 16:08 | <Ms2ger> | Yes, I think so |
| 16:09 | <AryehGregor> | Ms2ger, wouldn't it be better to check the test name plus the assert name, for the case of tests with many asserts? (Like, um, mine.) |
| 16:10 | <AryehGregor> | Or do we not care if it's a different assert that fails? |
| 16:10 | <Ms2ger> | Don't you have multiple test()s per file? |
| 16:10 | <AryehGregor> | Yes. |
| 16:10 | <AryehGregor> | Sometimes tens of thousands of test()s, but also sometimes tens of asserts per test. |
| 16:11 | <Ms2ger> | I think we can live with it if the failing assert changes |
| 16:11 | <AryehGregor> | If the failing assert changes, that probably indicates that either 1) an earlier assert than before fails (regression that should be flagged), or 2) a later assert than before fails (unexpected pass that should be flagged). |
| 16:12 | <Ms2ger> | Mm |
| 16:12 | AryehGregor | posts on the bug |
| 16:12 | <Ms2ger> | How would you identify the asserts? |
| 16:12 | <AryehGregor> | That's not exposed to the result callback? |
| 16:12 | <AryehGregor> | If not, it should be. |
| 16:12 | AryehGregor | pokes |
| 16:12 | <Ms2ger> | Probably just the message, no? |
| 16:13 | <AryehGregor> | Yeah, the assert can be identified just by message. |
| 16:13 | <AryehGregor> | I mean, by its name. |
| 16:13 | <AryehGregor> | If it has one. |
| 16:13 | <AryehGregor> | Really, you should be able to identify it by whatever info the default <div id=log> spits out into the rightmost column. |
| 16:14 | <Ms2ger> | Well, most of my asserts, at least, don't have messages |
| 16:14 | <Ms2ger> | And I'd rather not have to write messages for all failing tests that we import |
| 16:14 | <AryehGregor> | test.message? |
| 16:14 | <Velmont> | The full message is supposed to come back. We have it reported at Opera. |
| 16:14 | <AryehGregor> | Well, if the asserts don't have messages, then the failing message will be the same regardless of which assert fails. |
| 16:14 | <AryehGregor> | Which is no worse than the status quo. |
| 16:15 | <AryehGregor> | I do that too if my test has only one or two asserts. |
| 16:15 | <Ms2ger> | It isn't autogenerated? |
| 16:15 | <Ms2ger> | Because I also don't feel like updating all the expectations when the default message's wording changes |
| 16:16 | <Velmont> | Some of my tests have messages, -- some don't. -- At least you get a somewhat usable message when something throws, so you most probably want the message anyway. |
| 16:16 | <AryehGregor> | We could adopt the approach of stabbing anyone who updates the default message's wording. |
| 16:16 | <AryehGregor> | Alternatively, regex. |
| 16:16 | <Ms2ger> | Hmm, the stabbing idea sounds interesting |
| 16:17 | <Velmont> | You're now talking about going from FAIL to FAIL, but identifying different fails? |
| 16:17 | <Velmont> | If it's failing in a different way, -- someone should probably look at it. Either because message changed, test changed, or code changed. Or regression, ofc. :] |
| 16:17 | <Ms2ger> | Changes in which assertion fails within a test() |
| 16:18 | <Ms2ger> | My problem is mostly someone being me :) |
| 16:18 | <AryehGregor> | Should be no different from any test, right? Whoever breaks it has to deal with it? |
| 16:18 | <AryehGregor> | If it turns out testharness.js changes are needed to make things more reliable, we can do those. |
| 16:20 | <Ms2ger> | I'm afraid of the work that needs to be done whenever testharness.js or sets of tests are updates |
| 16:21 | <AryehGregor> | As soon as anyone is relying on the format of test failure messages, testharness.js shouldn't be changing in ways that change those messages. |
| 16:21 | <AryehGregor> | Nor should tests, for that matter. |
| 16:21 | <jgraham> | I would be scared of getting lots of work every time a third party updated a test, if I were you |
| 16:21 | <Ms2ger> | I am |
| 16:22 | <jgraham> | For example if I update 10000 tests to have a different error message when they assert, that sounds bad under your proposal |
| 16:22 | <Velmont> | You have timestamp on the files, -- if they are new (updated), they are not "real" problems any more and should be marked in a special way. |
| 16:22 | <Ms2ger> | Velmont, doesn't work that way over here |
| 16:23 | jgraham | would just go with the sytem as it was designed to work i.e. a Test is the atomic thing |
| 16:23 | <Velmont> | Ms2ger: OK :-) I don't know moz system, -- I just thought it was somewhat similar to Opera's. |
| 16:23 | <AryehGregor> | jgraham, the various WGs should adopt policies that prohibit that kind of change without good reason. It's not in anyone's interest, after all. |
| 16:23 | <jgraham> | AryehGregor: It's in our interest if it gives us better error messages, for example |
| 16:23 | <AryehGregor> | So you think a difference in the failure message shouldn't be flagged? |
| 16:24 | <AryehGregor> | True, but reconfiguring the number of tests is also sometimes in our interest. |
| 16:24 | <AryehGregor> | Like breaking tests up by finer granularity so that they're more useful. |
| 16:24 | <AryehGregor> | Or coarser so that they run faster. |
| 16:24 | <jgraham> | No. I think it offers a small theoretical advantage at the cost of fighting the way the system is supposed to work |
| 16:24 | <jgraham> | It will also encourage Mozilla people to write tests that don't work well for others (many asserts per test) |
| 16:25 | <jgraham> | So it's bad from my point of view :) |
| 16:25 | <Velmont> | ^^ |
| 16:25 | <AryehGregor> | I already write tests like those, partly because it makes the tests run much faster given how long it takes to lay out the results (superlinear in the number of results). |
| 16:25 | <AryehGregor> | But they're also less useful, I gues. |
| 16:25 | <AryehGregor> | guess. |
| 16:25 | <jgraham> | If laying out the results is the bottleneck we should fix that |
| 16:25 | <AryehGregor> | So I can just write them at finer granularity if that's what people prefer. |
| 16:26 | <AryehGregor> | I tried, didn't you notice? :) |
| 16:26 | <jgraham> | Yeah, but there are other ways to try |
| 16:26 | <AryehGregor> | Suggestions? |
| 16:26 | <Ms2ger> | Yeah, and you keep breaking my XML tests :) |
| 16:26 | <jgraham> | Like having id=log-fail that only prints fails |
| 16:26 | <Velmont> | It doesn't *need* to lay out the tests when you're using testharnessreport to do it? |
| 16:27 | <jgraham> | Or having id=log-delayed that requires human interaction to actually generate the tests |
| 16:27 | <Velmont> | Are you speaking about slow as in a testrunner system, -- or when people run them themselves? |
| 16:27 | <jgraham> | *test results |
| 16:27 | <Ms2ger> | The latter |
| 16:27 | <AryehGregor> | Velmont, the latter. |
| 16:27 | <jgraham> | I guess it is both? |
| 16:27 | <AryehGregor> | jgraham, or automatically print only fails if there are a lot of passes. |
| 16:27 | <jgraham> | Right, there are a number of things that we could do to make it more efficient |
| 16:28 | <AryehGregor> | Another question: should testharnessreport.js as used by browser vendors remove <div id=log>? As noted, for my tests it can sometimes take a really long time to lay out the results. Like 30+ seconds. |
| 16:28 | <AryehGregor> | Or should we just fix that? |
| 16:28 | <Ms2ger> | Oh, I had another issue with test descriptions that included characters XML didn't like |
| 16:28 | <AryehGregor> | Silly XML. |
| 16:28 | <Ms2ger> | Well, that's an open door |
| 16:28 | <jgraham> | AryehGregor: That seems like a reasonable hack, although I would expect it to break some tests |
| 16:29 | <AryehGregor> | Maybe better to just have those tests use delayed logging or whatever. |
| 16:29 | <jgraham> | Yup. Although it shouldn't start layout until after the results have been sent so it might be interupted by the next test loading (or something) |
| 16:30 | <Ms2ger> | jgraham, hmm, could you add a function to testharness that just disables logging? |
| 16:30 | <AryehGregor> | I was about to say that. |
| 16:30 | <Ms2ger> | I'd want the log to be filled in when tests are run outside the harness, though |
| 16:31 | <AryehGregor> | It should disable only the logging at finish, though, since the logging after each result might affect a later test's outcome. |
| 16:31 | <AryehGregor> | (the logging after each result shouldn't be a big deal since I updated it to happen only every 1000th test if there are lots) |
| 16:31 | <jgraham> | Right, the question is how one tells when it should be enabled or not |
| 16:31 | <AryehGregor> | I'm not sure I want the log filled in by default when tests are run outside the harness, because that's really slow in some cases. |
| 16:31 | <Ms2ger> | I can tell you that in testharnessreport :) |
| 16:31 | <jgraham> | AryehGregor: What logging after each result? |
| 16:32 | <AryehGregor> | jgraham, updating the number of tests run so far. |
| 16:32 | <jgraham> | Oh, Ok |
| 16:32 | <jgraham> | Ms2ger: That seems reasonable |
| 16:32 | <jgraham> | (a manually set off switch) |
| 16:33 | <Ms2ger> | I'm probably already going to get shouted at for making our test runs longer :) |
| 16:33 | <AryehGregor> | For tests not using testharnessreport.js, I also want a way to default some or all of the show/hide checkboxes to hide. |
| 16:33 | <AryehGregor> | So that to display the tests you need to check one of the boxes. |
| 16:33 | <Ms2ger> | Class names? |
| 16:33 | <AryehGregor> | Hmm? |
| 16:34 | <Ms2ger> | <div id=log class=shutup> |
| 16:34 | <annevk> | Gecko has by far the most complicated Encoding UI, followed by Opera :/ |
| 16:34 | <annevk> | oh, maybe IE is worse |
| 16:34 | <Ms2ger> | (I want a way to shut it up without touching the test's DOM, though) |
| 16:35 | <annevk> | IE does not expose an encoding menu? |
| 16:35 | <annevk> | that's kind of novel |
| 16:36 | <AryehGregor> | Ms2ger, a function to be called by the tests makes more sense to me. Like a parameter to pass to setup(), maybe. |
| 16:36 | <Ms2ger> | That would work too |
| 16:36 | <jgraham> | annevk: If only people listened to mpt in 2004 (or whenever) |
| 16:36 | <annevk> | jgraham: pointer? |
| 16:36 | <AryehGregor> | For testharnessreport.js, we want a way to stop stuff from even being added to the DOM. |
| 16:37 | <AryehGregor> | It's just a waste of resources. |
| 16:37 | <Ms2ger> | Yeah |
| 16:37 | <mpt> | annevk, Epiphany if you have it installed, otherwise it's on Google Groups somewhere |
| 16:37 | <AryehGregor> | For manual runs, it's probably fine to always add stuff to the DOM. IIRC, that's not a big deal even for really big result sets, given that you use my innerHTML optimization. |
| 16:37 | <jgraham> | annevk: http://groups.google.com/group/netscape.public.mozilla.ui/msg/60e186a20d5d69d0 |
| 16:37 | <jgraham> | (2000) |
| 16:38 | <Ms2ger> | Until recently, we had a bug open to expose encoding in the context menu :) |
| 16:39 | <jgraham> | Wow |
| 16:40 | <annevk> | Safari calls it "Text Encoding", Chrome/Opera just call it "Encoding" |
| 16:40 | <annevk> | Gecko still calls it "Character Encoding" |
| 16:40 | <annevk> | pretty bad |
| 16:46 | <AryehGregor> | Does my W3C login work for hg.csswg.org, or do I need yet another login? |
| 16:47 | AryehGregor | wants somewhere to check in his work as he writes it |
| 16:47 | <Ms2ger> | Another one |
| 16:48 | <Ms2ger> | Ask plinss |
| 16:48 | <AryehGregor> | Via e-mail? |
| 16:49 | <AryehGregor> | Has anyone ever remarked that having most tests named things like test_bug382027.html is not very convenient for figuring out what they do? |
| 16:49 | <jcranmer> | yep |
| 16:51 | <Ms2ger> | Well, the usual response is that those tests test one particular piece of code, and it isn't much use to call it test_getattribute-style-for-border-style |
| 16:52 | <jgraham> | It's not very useful for sharing them to name them based on internal bug ids :) |
| 16:52 | <Ms2ger> | Sharing? What's that? |
| 16:52 | <AryehGregor> | I don't actually see any explicit transform tests anywhere. |
| 16:53 | <AryehGregor> | (in Gecko) |
| 16:53 | <AryehGregor> | (based on where dbaron told me to look) |
| 16:53 | <AryehGregor> | (grepping for -moz-transform\|mozTransform) |
| 16:54 | <Ms2ger> | /layout/reftests/transform-3d/? |
| 16:54 | <Ms2ger> | And /layout/reftests/transform/ |
| 16:55 | <Ms2ger> | (http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/search?string=moz-transform&find=%2F&findi=&filter=^[^\0]*%24&hitlimit=&tree=mozilla-central) |
| 16:55 | <dglazkov> | good morning, Whatwg! |
| 16:56 | <AryehGregor> | Ms2ger, oh, I was looking for mochitests. |
| 16:56 | <AryehGregor> | Wasn't thinking about reftests just yet. |
| 16:56 | <AryehGregor> | (and I'm only doing 2d for now) |
| 16:56 | <Ms2ger> | There don't tend to be many mochitests for CSS stuff |
| 16:57 | <AryehGregor> | Why not? Obviously you need some reftests, but those must be a lot slower per assertion. |
| 17:01 | AryehGregor | expects to write a handful of reftests, and lots and lots of JS tests |
| 17:03 | <AryehGregor> | Ms2ger, I should just send an e-mail to plinss? |
| 17:04 | <Ms2ger> | Yeah |
| 17:13 | <AryehGregor> | Done. |
| 17:16 | <Ms2ger> | jgraham, want me to file a bug for disabling the logging or would you remember it without one? :) |
| 17:16 | <AryehGregor> | CC me if you file it. |
| 17:17 | <jgraham> | File it |
| 17:18 | <jgraham> | Alternate theory: turn logging off by default and then only turn it on in testharnessreport.js |
| 17:18 | <jgraham> | Advantage: encourages people to include testharnessreport.js |
| 17:18 | <AryehGregor> | Wait, what am I supposed to do when writing tests if there are vendor prefixes? Just write tests that will fail in all browsers? |
| 17:18 | <AryehGregor> | Really? |
| 17:18 | <AryehGregor> | jgraham, you mean make the default testharnessreport.js non-empty? |
| 17:19 | <Ms2ger> | I want testharnessreport.js to be empty, ta :) |
| 17:19 | <jgraham> | OK, well just a thought :) |
| 17:19 | <jgraham> | (it occurs to me that due to the peculiar way that Opera runs tests this solution isn't going to work well for us :( ) |
| 17:19 | <AryehGregor> | Which solution? |
| 17:20 | <jgraham> | Using a flag in testharnessreport.js to disable output |
| 17:24 | <AryehGregor> | . . . Okay, so is there actually any programmatic way to detect where a transformed element wound up? |
| 17:24 | <AryehGregor> | .offsetLeft and friends seem to report the untransformed position. |
| 17:25 | <AryehGregor> | If there's no way to check it programmatically, that sort of implies I can only do reftests. |
| 17:26 | <jgraham> | Hmm, so I doubt that I can rely on the relative order of testharness.js and testharnessreport.js loading |
| 17:26 | <jgraham> | Without retrospectively editing all existing tests |
| 17:27 | <AryehGregor> | It would be kind of bad if you can't rely on the order. |
| 17:27 | <jgraham> | Well it's kind of bad then |
| 17:28 | <Ms2ger> | Because of Opera's legacy tests, or? |
| 17:29 | <AryehGregor> | Okay, so getBoundingClientRect() works, although frankly I have no idea whether that's actually required by spec. |
| 17:29 | <AryehGregor> | Or if it works in IE. |
| 17:29 | AryehGregor | tests in IE |
| 17:29 | <jgraham> | For example in submissions/AryehGregor interfaces.html has testharnessreport.js first but reflection/reflection-embedded/html has testharness.js first |
| 17:30 | <AryehGregor> | Add a check to testharness.js to figure out somehow and complain. |
| 17:30 | AryehGregor | votes for setting a global variable in testharnessreport.js |
| 17:30 | <AryehGregor> | Ms2ger, why don't you want that? |
| 17:30 | <jgraham> | You know plh lives close enough that he could quite easilly track me down and kill me if I break all the legacy tests |
| 17:31 | <AryehGregor> | Which legacy tests? |
| 17:31 | <jgraham> | All the ones written up till now |
| 17:31 | <jgraham> | Setting a global works of course |
| 17:31 | <jgraham> | But it is really ugly |
| 17:31 | <Ms2ger> | testharness.js should be first |
| 17:32 | <jgraham> | It would be nice if in testharnessreport.js one could do setupHarness(options) |
| 17:32 | <jgraham> | or something |
| 17:32 | <Ms2ger> | And I'll probably have to fix up the tests I care about |
| 17:32 | <jgraham> | Ms2ger: And the tests you don't care about too, if you want it to work :) |
| 17:32 | <AryehGregor> | jgraham, if the goal is to get the legacy tests working with browsers, and browsers' use of testharnessreport.js requires a specific order, the legacy tests are already broken. |
| 17:32 | <AryehGregor> | Nothing wrong with making them more obviously broken. |
| 17:32 | <Ms2ger> | jgraham, I'm not going to import all tests :) |
| 17:33 | <Ms2ger> | Certainly not the widget ones |
| 17:33 | <AryehGregor> | Okay, so getBoundingClientRect() interoperably reflects transforms. |
| 17:34 | <AryehGregor> | I have no idea why, since AFAICT the spec doesn't say anything meaningful about what exactly the rectangle is supposed to be, unless I don't understand the secrets of CSS terminology. |
| 17:35 | <AryehGregor> | But it will do for now. |
| 17:51 | <annevk> | AryehGregor: it does? meh |
| 17:51 | <annevk> | oh well, not my spec anymore |
| 17:51 | <AryehGregor> | annevk, meh that it reflects transforms? |
| 17:52 | <AryehGregor> | Can anyone explain to me why IE and WebKit prefix with ms and webkit, but Gecko and Opera prefix with Moz and O? |
| 17:52 | <AryehGregor> | Uppercase vs. lowercase? |
| 17:52 | <AryehGregor> | It's confusing. |
| 17:53 | <jgraham> | In the DOM? |
| 17:54 | <AryehGregor> | Yes. |
| 17:54 | <Ms2ger> | I think Moz is a tanktekism |
| 17:54 | <Ms2ger> | We also have mozRequestAnimationFrame, mozMatchesSelector |
| 17:54 | <jgraham> | Also, I think the simplest solution for the testharness.js thing is to allow setup to take another parameter output that controls whether output is enabled. This has the effect that one could override it on a per-test basis which seems bad but not too bad |
| 17:55 | <annevk> | AryehGregor: yeah, I thought we were going to have another API for transforms |
| 17:55 | <Ms2ger> | jgraham, can I call setup multiple times? |
| 17:55 | <annevk> | AryehGregor: -o-x -> OX; dash -> next character uppercase |
| 17:56 | <annevk> | AryehGregor: for non-CSS, I think we did it so the DOM could introduce methods that started with a lowercase o |
| 17:56 | <annevk> | dunno how consistent we've been |
| 17:56 | <jgraham> | All I know is http://my.opera.com/emoller/blog/2011/12/20/requestanimationframe-for-smart-er-animating?cid=78181842#comment78181842 |
| 17:57 | <jgraham> | Ms2ger: Yes |
| 17:57 | <Ms2ger> | That works, then |
| 17:57 | <Ms2ger> | I think allowing tests to override it is fine |
| 18:05 | <AryehGregor> | Okay, so Gecko serializes matrices with px units for the last two values. |
| 18:05 | <AryehGregor> | Is that supposed to be defined somewhere? |
| 18:05 | AryehGregor | hates CSS specs with a passion |
| 18:06 | <Ms2ger> | dbaron would know about that |
| 18:06 | <dbaron> | about what? |
| 18:06 | <Ms2ger> | <AryehGregor> Okay, so Gecko serializes matrices with px units for the last two values. |
| 18:06 | <Ms2ger> | <AryehGregor> Is that supposed to be defined somewhere? |
| 18:07 | <AryehGregor> | dbaron, I started writing JS-based tests for CSS Transforms, as discussed. The first non-interoperable thing I found is Gecko serializes (e.g.) translate(10px) as matrix(1, 0, 0, 1, 10px, 0) in getComputedStyle(), and all other browsers serialize as matrix(1, 0, 0, 1, 10, 0). |
| 18:08 | <dbaron> | I think the group hasn't really resolved on it |
| 18:08 | <dbaron> | but I'm inclined to give in |
| 18:08 | <zewt> | should i be entertained that the stupid nonsense I see on the web never slows; that people always find new, stupid things to do badly |
| 18:09 | <zewt> | such as this address form, where I entered my zip code; tabbed; started entering my city; and halfway through entering the city, apparently some json request finished and autocompleted the city, leaving me with "onsONSET" entered in the field |
| 18:12 | <zewt> | it's also discomfiting to be asked my mother's maiden name in 2012 |
| 18:19 | <michel_v> | it could be worse. you could be a woman, and wonder endlessly why all the damn forms ask you if you're "Miss" or "Mrs" |
| 18:19 | <michel_v> | as if your marital status mattered when you registered a domain name, for example |
| 18:58 | <AryehGregor> | assert_equals: getComputedStyle expected "matrix(1, -1, 0, 1, 0, 0)" but got "matrix(1, -0.9999999999999999, 0, 1, 0, 0)" |
| 18:58 | <AryehGregor> | Sigh. |
| 18:58 | <AryehGregor> | Why does CSS have to be so poorly defined? |
| 18:58 | <AryehGregor> | Is defining rounding for serialization too much to ask? |
| 18:58 | <Ms2ger> | Yes |
| 18:58 | <Ms2ger> | The WG doesn't want that kind of thing |
| 18:59 | AryehGregor | notes that Gecko doesn't have any such issues that he's discovered |
| 19:00 | <Ms2ger> | Go us! |
| 19:08 | <jamesr_> | most test frameworks have fuzzy matchers for floating point values |
| 19:08 | <AryehGregor> | jamesr_, yes, I just switched to using that. |
| 19:08 | <AryehGregor> | I had to make up an epsilon (I picked 1.0e-5). |
| 19:08 | <AryehGregor> | At first I tried 1.0e-10, but IE was deviating from expected values by the order of 1.0e-8 sometimes. |
| 19:08 | <AryehGregor> | So I made up a number that happened to work. |
| 19:09 | <AryehGregor> | How in heaven's name does the CSSWG expect anyone to write any correct tests under these conditions? |
| 19:09 | <Ms2ger> | For API stuff? Not, I guess |
| 19:10 | AryehGregor | also notes that he didn't test getBoundingClientRect() results when the box he was using was transformed by a singular matrix, because again, IE happened to produce different results in that case and getBoundingClientRect() isn't actually defined in any precise way |
| 19:10 | <AryehGregor> | What's the border box of something transformed by (-1, 1, 1, -1, 0, 0)? |
| 19:12 | <Ms2ger> | Is there an easy way in python to merge two dicts? |
| 19:14 | <AryehGregor> | dbaron, thanks. |
| 19:15 | <zewt> | dict.update? |
| 19:15 | <Ms2ger> | Thanks |
| 19:46 | <crankharder> | is there a way to determine whether or not the app cache has network connectivity? |
| 20:07 | <crankharder> | i'm having a real hard time with the order of events firing as it relates to the app cache |
| 20:07 | <crankharder> | the docs on the app cache say that the browser will request the manifest file as soon as it encounters the directive in the <html> tag |
| 20:07 | <crankharder> | but that doesn't seem to be the case |
| 20:07 | <crankharder> | http://pastie.org/3126878 |
| 20:08 | <crankharder> | instead, it looks like the browser processes the whole document, runs all javascript, and only then requests the manifest file |
| 20:31 | <Ms2ger> | Public opinion as requested: We should kill DAP and if they do anything relevant to the web, webapps should take it on |
| 20:33 | Ms2ger | runs AryehGregor's Range tests in Mozilla's mochitest framework |
| 20:33 | <AryehGregor> | Yay. |
| 20:33 | <AryehGregor> | Does it work? |
| 20:33 | Ms2ger | waits patiently |
| 20:38 | <Ms2ger> | Hmm, test_interfaces probably needs some external file |
| 20:46 | <AryehGregor> | ? |
| 20:47 | <Ms2ger> | The IDL parser and stuff |
| 20:47 | <annevk> | hmm |
| 20:47 | <annevk> | even when not hungry |
| 20:47 | <annevk> | you need more than 8 nigiri |
| 20:48 | <annevk> | fortunately there's always yoghurt :) |
| 20:57 | <jgraham> | And bacon cheeseburgers :p |
| 20:58 | <AryehGregor> | Ms2ger, you just need the stuff in /resources. |
| 20:58 | <Ms2ger> | Yeah |
| 20:58 | <Ms2ger> | \o/ |
| 20:59 | <Ms2ger> | First finished mochitest run :) |
| 20:59 | <AryehGregor> | :) |
| 21:00 | <Ms2ger> | OTOH, so many test failures the actual count scrolled off my console |
| 21:00 | <Ms2ger> | 1231 INFO Passed: 676 |
| 21:00 | <Ms2ger> | 1232 INFO Failed: 551 |
| 21:01 | <annevk> | jgraham: indeed, I need to get myself back to Oslo :) |
| 21:01 | <Ms2ger> | (That's interfaces.html) |
| 21:03 | Ms2ger | may assemble patches tomorrow |
| 21:04 | <AryehGregor> | There should be lots of low-hanging fruit to fix for interfaces.html. |
| 21:36 | <annevk> | Does Mozilla Bugzilla have a clone bug feature? |
| 21:36 | <smaug____> | yes |
| 21:36 | <smaug____> | on bottom right corner |
| 21:37 | <annevk> | thanks |
| 22:23 | <annevk> | so far only indication that Gecko/Opera support iso-2022-cn and euc-tw |
| 22:23 | <annevk> | the latter with incompatible labels |
| 22:25 | <annevk> | Opera only recognizes euc-tw |
| 22:25 | <annevk> | Gecko only x-euc-tw and some others |
| 22:26 | <annevk> | Chrome does recognize iso-2022-cn, but to explicitly not support it |
| 22:26 | <annevk> | prolly to avoid the issue Philip` pointed out earlier |
| 23:00 | <dglazkov> | what's a good spec that defines terms like "directional navigation", "sequential navigation", "document navigation order", etc.? |
| 23:01 | <dglazkov> | www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/editing.html#editing has some bits, but definitely not complete |
| 23:02 | <dglazkov> | www.w3.org/TR/css3-ui/#keyboard has some other bits, but also not fully fleshed out |
| 23:02 | <annevk> | what kind of navigation are we talking about? |
| 23:03 | <dglazkov> | keyboard control/focus |
| 23:03 | <dglazkov> | tabbing and spatial nav |
| 23:03 | <annevk> | that's not really well defined anywhere |
| 23:04 | <dglazkov> | ok, no problem. I'll stitch something together for shadow DOM. |
| 23:15 | <annevk> | note for tomorrow's annevk: XML5 |
| 23:15 | <dglazkov> | that sounds delicious |
| 23:15 | <gsnedders> | Is tomorrow's annevk a different annevk from today's? |
| 23:15 | <gsnedders> | Is there an army of annevk clones or something? |
| 23:16 | <gsnedders> | Because that sounds kinda scary, but I guess it could improve productivity when it comes to writing specs. |
| 23:17 | <dglazkov> | perhaps it's more of a larvae->pupa->butterfly situation |
| 23:27 | <jamesr_> | dglazkov: tabindex defined here: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/editing.html#focus |
| 23:28 | <jamesr_> | not in a ton of detail |
| 23:28 | <dglazkov> | yep |
| 23:28 | <dglazkov> | I was just looking for a grand unified theory of keyboard navigation |
| 23:29 | <gsnedders> | For anyone who fails to understand me: http://gothsuptrees.tumblr.com/ |
| 23:43 | <crankharder> | why would window.webkitIndexedDB be undefined in safari 5.1.2 ? |
| 23:45 | <hober> | crankharder: I believe you'll find that each webkit browser {en,dis}ables different features |
| 23:47 | <crankharder> | hober: indesedDB is enabled - a demo site is working |