| 00:28 | <crankharder> | I'm getting effectively the same error in chrome and ffx from this indexedb example |
| 00:28 | <crankharder> | http://html5-demos.appspot.com/static/html5storage/index.html#slide31 |
| 00:28 | <crankharder> | http://pastie.org/pastes/3128254 |
| 03:08 | <MikeSmith> | fyi, I just realized today that I had at some point borked the link-fixup behavior for the dev.w3.org version of the spec |
| 03:08 | <MikeSmith> | such that broken fragment refs didn't get redirected the way they are supposed to |
| 03:09 | <MikeSmith> | but anyway, fwiw, I just fixed it so that they should work again as expected |
| 07:32 | <MikeSmith> | http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2011OctDec/att-1696/speechapi.html |
| 08:08 | <annevk> | http://www.jwz.org/blog/2012/01/jon-mitchell-google-hates-the-internet/ "A far distant 99th priority is the person who actually created the thing in the first place." Isn't that the same with traditional media? |
| 08:30 | <woef> | annevk: if you look at Google's plans for search results, they seem to be going in the same direction |
| 08:31 | <woef> | Google will try to answer any direct question itself, downplaying the source link where it got its information |
| 08:31 | <woef> | https://www.google.com/search?ie=UTF-8&q=who+is+matt+damon+married+to |
| 08:32 | <woef> | You have to click "show sources" to actually see where Google got it from. |
| 08:35 | <patbam> | weirdly, the results if you replace "angelina jolie" for "matt damon" are different |
| 08:35 | <woef> | Even worse I'd say, there are 7 sites they're not even mentioning. |
| 08:38 | <patbam> | indeed |
| 08:39 | <woef> | A kick in the balls for the semantic web if you ask me. |
| 08:39 | <woef> | You go through the trouble of marking everything up with microdata, Google steals your data and doesn't even bother to credit you properly. |
| 08:40 | <hsivonen> | woef: does that feature even use any semweb markup? |
| 08:41 | <hsivonen> | woef: and since when was semantic web about attributing anything? |
| 08:41 | <hsivonen> | woef: AFAICT, the SemWeb folks were never that concerned about provenance |
| 08:41 | <hsivonen> | woef: you stick all facts and lies you find into a triple store, shake and out come conclusions |
| 08:44 | <woef> | hsivonen: Google's microdata effort are certainly behind it. |
| 08:44 | <woef> | The best way to "know" an answer. |
| 08:45 | <hsivonen> | woef: nope. click show sources |
| 08:45 | <hsivonen> | woef: and, among others, you get http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/12/15/matt-damons-wife-luciana-steps-out-first-time-since-giving-birth_n_796981.html |
| 08:46 | <hsivonen> | woef: looks like they are extracting stuff from English phrases without any microdata |
| 08:46 | <woef> | I never said they did. |
| 08:46 | <woef> | *not do that too |
| 08:47 | <woef> | But if you have the chance between marked up content using microdata and English phrases ... what are they going to prefer? |
| 08:47 | <woef> | The data that machines can read 100% accurately, or the stuff where they still need to do some guessing? |
| 08:47 | <hsivonen> | is "Google's microdata effort" involved in any of the sources claimed for figuring out who Matt Damon's wife is? |
| 08:48 | <woef> | You claim they won't use it? |
| 08:48 | <woef> | They'd be dumb not to. |
| 08:49 | <hsivonen> | I wouldn't expect them to use microdata for this particular thing, no |
| 08:49 | <woef> | Is there any reason not to? |
| 08:49 | <tantek> | hsivonen, regarding provenance, there are differences among semweb folks in its importance |
| 08:50 | <woef> | Beyond the fact that hardly any big sites these days are implemting it for relations between people? |
| 08:50 | <hsivonen> | woef: there are lots of people providing user-visible simple English phases about celebrity marriages |
| 08:50 | <woef> | schema.org lists: spouse Person The person's spouse. |
| 08:50 | <tantek> | woef, expressing relations between people is solved by XFN, indexed by Google, and available to anyone thru the Google Social Graph API |
| 08:50 | <hsivonen> | woef: there are few sources motivated to provide correct explicit metadata declarations of celebrity marriages |
| 08:51 | <tantek> | oh, and has nothing to do with microdata |
| 08:51 | <woef> | Microdata (/schema.org) has everything ready to start using microdata for things like this |
| 08:52 | <hsivonen> | woef: so changes are that phrases grepped from text would give better confidence for this kind of thing that explicit metadata |
| 08:52 | <tantek> | woef "ready to start using" == handwaving. whatever. |
| 08:53 | <woef> | lol |
| 08:53 | <hsivonen> | tantek: does the capital Semantic Web stack have a provenance layer these days? |
| 08:53 | <woef> | Okay, so "they're not using it now so there is no problem at all" then. |
| 08:53 | <tantek> | hsivonen - depends on whose version of SemWeb "Trust" you use |
| 08:53 | <hsivonen> | I haven't been looking that carefully, but it seems to me that capital-S stack developed all kinds of machinery before provenance |
| 08:54 | <tantek> | sure, it's a multilayer cake |
| 08:54 | <hsivonen> | and provenance was in the "we'll figure it out later bucket" |
| 08:54 | <tantek> | nah, that's a bit of a mischaracterization |
| 08:54 | <tantek> | for example, a simple answer is to supply provenance as a triple annotation on any existing triple |
| 08:55 | <tantek> | it can complicate queries sure, but it's not an unsolvable problem |
| 08:55 | <hsivonen> | though last time I heard TimBL answer a question of SemWeb provenace was in 2004, so things might have progressed since then |
| 08:55 | <hsivonen> | tantek: it's solv*able* sure |
| 08:56 | <tantek> | to be clear - I'm just passing along bits I've picked up from discussions |
| 08:56 | <tantek> | it's not how I would choose to solve provenance |
| 08:56 | <tantek> | given that I don't choose to use uppercase SemWeb tech either (but it's easy enough to create simple data to interop with it) |
| 08:58 | <hsivonen> | on a completely different topic: in the popup blocker is disengaged, Chrome, IE9 and Opera open a new window/tab and load the Mozilla site into it when loading https://bug98654.bugzilla.mozilla.org/attachment.cgi?id=77369 |
| 08:58 | <hsivonen> | Firefox doesn't |
| 08:58 | <hsivonen> | I don't see any mechanism in the spec that explains the Chrome/IE/Opera behavior |
| 08:58 | <hsivonen> | AFAICT, Firefox complies with the spec |
| 08:59 | <hsivonen> | and Firefox has had the Chrome/IE/Opera behavior before |
| 08:59 | <hsivonen> | What's the mechanism Chrome/IE/Opera apply here? |
| 08:59 | <hsivonen> | s/in the popup/if the popup/ |
| 09:01 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: am I misreading the spec or do Chrome/IE/Opera have an unspecced mechanism at work here? |
| 09:03 | <tantek> | on another completely unrelated topic: apparently kids in schools are now learning how to coordinate in-person group-trolling: http://www.takepart.com/article/2011/12/07/cyberbaiting-teens-find-high-tech-ways-humiliate-teachers |
| 09:06 | <hsivonen> | tantek: that's sad. kids are cruel |
| 09:07 | <Ms2ger> | Well, we knew that, no? |
| 09:08 | <hsivonen> | during my freshman year at the university, I was asked to come back to my old school as a substitute art teacher for a week, but I was too afraid that I couldn't keep order in the class, so I declined |
| 09:08 | <patbam> | i find it a bit |
| 09:09 | <tantek> | I have a feeling politics will get very different in ~10 years when that generation has reached voting / political participation age |
| 09:09 | <annevk> | don't worry |
| 09:09 | <annevk> | the Republicans will make sure they can't vote |
| 09:09 | <Ms2ger> | tantek, kids weren't cruel when you were at school? |
| 09:10 | <tantek> | they weren't that efficiently coordinated about it |
| 09:13 | <tantek> | oh and they focused coordinated/group attacks more on weaker individuals, in lower grades etc. not teachers. |
| 09:15 | <woef> | Parents became "our friends", so authority based on seniority is somewhat gone. |
| 09:38 | jgraham | doesn't think history bears "I have a feeling that politics will be very different when {some subset of today's youth} has reached participation age" |
| 09:42 | <hsivonen> | I occasionally wish WebKit and Chrome had something like MXR |
| 09:43 | hsivonen | wonders why the site map link on the www.chromium.org site is in Cyrillic letters |
| 09:44 | <hsivonen> | is there a useful third-party online cross reference for WebKit's source that I should know about? |
| 09:45 | <jgraham> | Is that "occasionally" that maps 1:1 to the "occasionally" that you want to look up something in their source code? |
| 09:46 | <hsivonen> | jgraham: yes |
| 09:46 | <Ms2ger> | http://codesearch.google.com/#&exact_package=chromium |
| 09:47 | <Ms2ger> | (Also, bug 674657) |
| 09:47 | <hsivonen> | Ms2ger: thanks |
| 09:48 | <hsivonen> | hmm. no non-spec magic in their document.write beyond a recursion limit |
| 09:49 | <hsivonen> | hmm. they do have a non-spec check in thei document.open impl. |
| 09:51 | <hsivonen> | though that check doesn't seem to explain this |
| 10:06 | <MikeSmith> | Ms2ger: you now have perms to the W3C testframework dvcs repo, as well as to add test suites through the Web UI |
| 10:06 | <Ms2ger> | Thanks |
| 11:56 | <annevk> | whoa |
| 11:56 | <annevk> | so I have |
| 11:56 | <annevk> | <meta charset=HZ-GB-2312><span>~ |
| 11:56 | <annevk> | </span><script>document.write(encodeURI(document.body.firstChild.innerHTML))</script> |
| 11:56 | <annevk> | gives � %EF%BF%BD%20 in IE9 |
| 11:57 | <annevk> | there's two 0x0A after the ~ |
| 11:57 | <annevk> | that's kind of insane |
| 11:57 | <annevk> | oh sweet |
| 11:57 | <annevk> | if I add a DOCTYPE |
| 11:57 | <annevk> | I get |
| 11:57 | <annevk> | � %EF%BF%BD%0A%0A |
| 11:58 | <annevk> | not sure I want to know |
| 12:01 | <hsivonen> | annevk: probably an innerHTML difference between modes |
| 12:02 | <annevk> | yeah seems likely |
| 12:03 | <annevk> | the weird thing is mostly the BOM :) |
| 12:42 | <annevk> | kind of funny how these encodings are from 95 and nobody ever bothered to take a proper look at them |
| 12:42 | <annevk> | makes me wonder about the network stack |
| 12:43 | <annevk> | consider also that HTML was from 94 or so (earlier?) and nobody took care of it until 2006 |
| 12:46 | <annevk> | so I have this to Unicode algorithm |
| 12:46 | <annevk> | when it says return failure, it's a fatal error |
| 12:46 | <annevk> | when it says "emit code point" it is run again (unless the code point is the EOF code point) |
| 12:46 | <annevk> | what should I use for running it again without emitting anything? |
| 12:47 | <annevk> | just return? |
| 12:47 | <annevk> | and explain it above? |
| 12:47 | <annevk> | something like this is needed for the encodings that are basically based on state machines |
| 12:48 | <Ms2ger> | continue; |
| 12:58 | <annevk> | yeah I considered that and I'm not sure why I rejected it, so I'll go with that |
| 13:02 | <annevk> | e.g. "Set the <span>hz-gb-2312 flag</span> and continue." Ms2ger? |
| 13:02 | <Ms2ger> | Sure |
| 13:05 | <hsivonen> | annevk: then you probably need to define "continue" |
| 13:05 | <hsivonen> | annevk: Hixie uses goto step # |
| 13:06 | <hsivonen> | annevk: of course, it's nicer if the spec uses continue/break instead of goto :-) |
| 13:13 | <hsivonen> | no answers to my window.location/document.write question yet :-( |
| 13:37 | <annevk> | hsivonen: yeah I have defined it for the to Unicode algorithm |
| 13:37 | <annevk> | hsivonen: I haven't referenced it all over though |
| 13:37 | <annevk> | (not yet checked in, still working on the last details of hz-gb-2312 to Unicode) |
| 13:57 | <annevk> | now committed: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/encoding/raw-file/tip/Overview.html#hz-gb-2312 |
| 14:55 | <annevk> | bitbucket.org offline? |
| 15:00 | <Ms2ger> | Is for me |
| 15:16 | <Ms2ger> | INFO | runtests.py | Running tests: end. |
| 15:16 | <Ms2ger> | mochitest-plain passed |
| 15:16 | <Ms2ger> | \o/ |
| 15:17 | <jgraham> | With the testharness.js tests? |
| 15:18 | <Ms2ger> | With 5 of AryehGregor's tests |
| 15:19 | <Ms2ger> | And after multiplying your timeouts by ten :) |
| 15:32 | <jgraham> | Heh |
| 15:33 | <jgraham> | Well once I push the changes you can do that from testharnessreport.js. Although that is sort of very problematic. Hmm |
| 15:35 | <Ms2ger> | fwiw, mochitests use an API to multiply the timeout by a factor, rather than passing an absolute value |
| 15:36 | <jgraham> | Yes, maybe that is a better idea |
| 15:36 | <annevk> | bitbucket back |
| 15:38 | <annevk> | A and B are null |
| 15:38 | <annevk> | A or B are/is??? null |
| 15:38 | <Ms2ger> | is |
| 15:39 | <annevk> | either A or B is null |
| 15:39 | <annevk> | k |
| 15:39 | <Ms2ger> | But ask someone with a different language background :) |
| 15:39 | <jgraham> | Is |
| 15:40 | <jgraham> | Because it is read as singular |
| 15:40 | <zewt> | i'd say they're both right; i'd say are |
| 15:41 | <zewt> | since singularity isn't implied (english "or' isn't "xor") |
| 15:41 | <jgraham> | It is commonly read as xor |
| 15:41 | <zewt> | no, definitely not |
| 15:41 | <zewt> | that would mean that if both A and B are null, then the condition is not satisfied |
| 15:41 | <jgraham> | Sure. "Shall we go left or right?" |
| 15:41 | <jgraham> | I mean in common usage |
| 15:41 | <jgraham> | Not in technical contexts |
| 15:41 | <zewt> | that's a choice, not a condition |
| 15:41 | <zcorpan> | left and right are mutually exclusive though |
| 15:42 | <Ms2ger> | What did you set off now, annevk... ;) |
| 15:42 | <zewt> | if you say "are there any cats or dogs?", you don't say "no" if there are both cats and dogs :) |
| 15:42 | <zcorpan> | zewt: that would be "are" even if there are only cats, since cats is plural |
| 15:42 | <zewt> | not relevant |
| 15:43 | <zewt> | the point is simply that "or" isn't "xor" |
| 15:43 | <david_carlisle> | zakim, who is here? |
| 15:43 | <jgraham> | Well it depends on context obviously |
| 15:43 | <david_carlisle> | sorry:-) |
| 15:43 | <annevk> | Ms2ger: dunno I moved on long ago |
| 15:43 | <zewt> | and more fundamentally, "if A or B are null" doesn't sound wrong to me as a native speaker (which is always the final measurement) |
| 15:43 | <Ms2ger> | david_carlisle, I am! :) |
| 15:44 | <jgraham> | zewt: I find it acceptable I guess, but less nice than "is" |
| 15:44 | <jgraham> | Which is also the final measurement :p |
| 15:45 | <zcorpan> | just go with "if A is null, or if B is null" |
| 15:45 | <zewt> | fffff |
| 15:46 | <zewt> | don't do that :P |
| 15:46 | <Ms2ger> | if not A or not B? |
| 15:47 | <zcorpan> | Ms2ger: doesn't it need to be and if you negate them? |
| 15:47 | <Ms2ger> | !a <==> a == nsnull |
| 15:48 | <zcorpan> | touche |
| 15:51 | <jgraham> | if null ∈ {A,B} |
| 15:53 | <Ms2ger> | Bah |
| 15:53 | <Ms2ger> | {A,B} ∋ null |
| 15:56 | <jgraham> | Now you're just showing off |
| 16:19 | <jgraham> | annevk: Did you get your note? |
| 16:25 | <annevk> | jgraham: yeah, but I didn't really work on it :( |
| 16:28 | <Echoes2> | hi guys, curious as to whether or not there is a need for or an element similar to say - <logo></logo> |
| 16:32 | <jgraham> | Echoes2: You tell us. Is there a need? I can't think of any good use cases |
| 16:33 | <Lachy> | Echoes2, <h1><img src="logo" alt="Company Name"></h1> seems good enough. |
| 16:44 | <Ms2ger> | Oh, bah |
| 16:44 | <Ms2ger> | AryehGregor, now I get to figure out something for your patches that fail on debug builds and pass on opt builds :/ |
| 16:45 | <AryehGregor> | Ms2ger, some of my tests fail on debug builds and pass on optimized builds? That sounds like a fairly serious problem. |
| 16:45 | <AryehGregor> | (in Gecko) |
| 16:45 | <AryehGregor> | Also, since Bitbucket is down, I'm pushing a DOM4 change to W3C only, all right? |
| 16:45 | <AryehGregor> | annevk, ^ |
| 16:45 | <Ms2ger> | Stringification differs |
| 16:45 | <AryehGregor> | So be sure to pull from there. |
| 16:45 | <AryehGregor> | Oh, really? That sounds like a bad idea. |
| 16:45 | <Ms2ger> | Debug builds add the pointer |
| 16:45 | <jgraham> | AryehGregor: Doesn't sound that surprising to me :) |
| 16:46 | <AryehGregor> | jgraham, what doesn't? |
| 16:46 | <annevk> | AryehGregor: sure |
| 16:46 | <annevk> | AryehGregor: guess we'll sync it later |
| 16:46 | AryehGregor | now has a desktop with much faster CPU than his server |
| 16:46 | <annevk> | we should maybe consider moving all specs to github for better integration with the web community |
| 16:46 | <jgraham> | AryehGregor: Different behaviour in debug |
| 16:47 | <annevk> | but git vs hg might be too much of a pain |
| 16:47 | <Ms2ger> | Like [object Window @ 0x7fe97b3ef320 (native @ 0x7fe97b112c78)] |
| 16:47 | <AryehGregor> | Almost twice the bogomips! |
| 16:47 | <AryehGregor> | annevk, it's not that bad at all, in fact. hg-git works quite well. |
| 16:47 | <AryehGregor> | The major nuisance is you have different commit id's. |
| 16:47 | <Ms2ger> | annevk, I'm not touching git if I can help it :) |
| 16:47 | AryehGregor | isn't touching hg if he can help it, but apparently can't :( |
| 16:48 | <jgraham> | It would actaully be easier to ahve the server on git and let people that want to use hg as the client do taht |
| 16:48 | <AryehGregor> | annevk, Ms2ger: Running make on DOM4 seems to have changed the output format of Overview.html to HTML5 instead of HTML 4.01. |
| 16:48 | <jgraham> | (I would slightly prefer that, even) |
| 16:48 | <Ms2ger> | Er, wait a second |
| 16:48 | <AryehGregor> | Is that expected? |
| 16:48 | <Ms2ger> | Have you committed already? |
| 16:48 | <AryehGregor> | No. |
| 16:48 | <AryehGregor> | I always look at the diff first. |
| 16:48 | <AryehGregor> | (and also after committing but before pushing, generally) |
| 16:49 | <AryehGregor> | (and by "always" I mean "usually, if I feel like it") |
| 16:49 | <Ms2ger> | hg update 4de5b048478e |
| 16:49 | <Ms2ger> | That'll get you back to the ED version |
| 16:49 | <AryehGregor> | Oh, I was on the WD version? |
| 16:49 | <Ms2ger> | The WD version was on tip |
| 16:50 | <annevk> | bitbucket sort of seems up |
| 16:51 | <annevk> | maybe only the site |
| 16:51 | <annevk> | :/ |
| 16:51 | <AryehGregor> | Yeah, seems up-ish. |
| 16:51 | <AryehGregor> | Push just succeeded. |
| 16:54 | <bga> | http://science.slashdot.org/story/12/01/05/1453244/leap-second-coming-in-june-2012 |
| 17:10 | <dglazkov> | good morning, Whatwg! |
| 17:10 | <Ms2ger> | Happy new year, dglazkov! |
| 17:11 | <dglazkov> | Happy New Year, Ms2ger! |
| 17:21 | Ms2ger | grumbles about webkit |
| 17:22 | <jgraham> | Altogether now for one last pre-ephiphany chorus of "We Wish You an Alright Christmas and an OK New Year" |
| 17:22 | <Ms2ger> | jgraham, yeah, you too |
| 17:22 | <jgraham> | :) |
| 17:26 | <AryehGregor> | http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0D%0A%3Cdiv%20style%3D%22height%3A50px%3Bwidth%3A50px%3Bbackground%3Agreen%3B-o-transform%3Arotate(180deg)%22%3E%3C%2Fdiv%3E%0D%0A%3Cscript%3Ew(document.querySelector(%22div%22).getBoundingClientRect().height)%3C%2Fscript%3E |
| 17:26 | <AryehGregor> | In Opera, that logs "52". |
| 17:27 | <AryehGregor> | That's the height of a 50px square div with -o-transform: rotate(180deg). |
| 17:27 | <AryehGregor> | lul? |
| 17:28 | <AryehGregor> | Note: scale(-1, -1) produces the same computed value of -o-transform, but a height of 50 as expected. |
| 17:28 | <gsnedders> | Um, why isn't that loading anything? |
| 17:28 | <AryehGregor> | What do you mean? |
| 17:29 | <AryehGregor> | Works for me. |
| 17:29 | <jgraham> | Loads for me and logs 51 |
| 17:29 | <AryehGregor> | The HTML is: <!DOCTYPE html> |
| 17:29 | <AryehGregor> | <div style="height:50px;width:50px;background:green;-o-transform:rotate(180deg)"></div> |
| 17:29 | <AryehGregor> | <script>w(document.querySelector("div").getBoundingClientRect().height)</script> |
| 17:29 | <AryehGregor> | I'm testing in Opera Next 12.00 alpha. |
| 17:29 | <jgraham> | Seems like a bug. I wonder if it is fixed internally |
| 17:29 | <AryehGregor> | I'm guessing there's too much rounding going on. |
| 17:30 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: You said you weren't doing anything; try it on mainline :) |
| 17:30 | <AryehGregor> | Like probably 180deg is converted to radians and then something gets rounded excessively and it winds up really rotating by 176deg or something. |
| 17:31 | <AryehGregor> | skewX and skewY with small values have similar problems: http://aryeh.name/tmp/css-test/contributors/aryehgregor/incoming/2d-transforms.html |
| 17:31 | <gsnedders> | Throws URIError here |
| 17:32 | <gsnedders> | Because I missed the final E of the URL |
| 17:32 | <gsnedders> | AryehGregor: Probably an effect of AA |
| 17:33 | <AryehGregor> | Rotation by 180 degrees of a pixel-aligned square that's an integer number of pixels wide has what exactly to do with AA? |
| 17:37 | <gsnedders> | AryehGregor: I don't know the details of our implementation, but I suspect it may be related to the fact that pi radians can't be expressed as a double |
| 17:37 | <AryehGregor> | I suspect so too. It looks like an egregious rounding error. |
| 17:37 | <AryehGregor> | My tests tolerate up to 1.5px; this is 2px. |
| 17:38 | <jgraham> | (depending on platform) |
| 17:38 | <jgraham> | (1px for me) |
| 17:38 | <gsnedders> | 1px for me too |
| 17:39 | <AryehGregor> | Bah. |
| 17:39 | <AryehGregor> | I wish I could make the tolerances lower. |
| 17:39 | <AryehGregor> | You'd think we could at least require some precision for getClientBoundingRect(). |
| 17:39 | <AryehGregor> | Even if we don't for actual layout. |
| 17:40 | <AryehGregor> | Although I guess the two should match up. |
| 17:40 | <gsnedders> | It makes no sense if it doesn't much the actual layout box |
| 17:41 | <AryehGregor> | I guess. |
| 17:41 | <AryehGregor> | Can't we just require precision in layout too? |
| 17:41 | <AryehGregor> | Bah on CSS. |
| 17:42 | <annevk> | it's kind of funny how CSS once led the effort to more precision and is now the one that is behind |
| 17:42 | <annevk> | kind of similar to the industrial revolution in England |
| 18:55 | <AryehGregor> | Yay, Gecko nightly crash. |
| 18:55 | AryehGregor | isolates |
| 19:33 | <dglazkov> | forums thread on www-style is now up to 21 messages. "Do you know who also used forums? Nazis." |
| 19:33 | <TabAtkins> | True fact! |
| 19:38 | <astearns> | from mattwilcox.net: "To argue effectively, don’t talk too much." |
| 19:38 | <TabAtkins> | Hahaha, that would be a totally jerk move to bring up. ^_^ |
| 19:38 | <hober> | dglazkov: :) |
| 19:46 | <AryehGregor> | TabAtkins, what format do CSS people like spec bug reports in? |
| 19:47 | <AryehGregor> | I've found a few in CSS 2D Transforms. |
| 19:47 | <TabAtkins> | Email? |
| 19:47 | <AryehGregor> | Should I make it one issue per e-mail, or does it not matter? |
| 19:48 | <TabAtkins> | Personally, I prefer large issues that might require discussion to be separate emails, and small issues (typos, small changes) to be collected together. |
| 19:48 | <AryehGregor> | I'll send one big e-mail and see what happens. |
| 19:49 | <TabAtkins> | That works too. When discussion starts happening with an email like that, I just split a new thread off myself. |
| 19:49 | <hober> | AryehGregor: we're using bugzilla to track issues in the transforms/transitions/animations specs |
| 19:49 | <AryehGregor> | hober, okay. |
| 19:49 | <hober> | AryehGregor: but emailing www-style is fine too |
| 19:50 | <AryehGregor> | Ah, you're one of the editors, good. |
| 19:50 | <hober> | AryehGregor: nice tests btw |
| 19:50 | <AryehGregor> | I'll file bugs. |
| 19:50 | <hober> | thanks |
| 20:00 | <annevk> | AryehGregor: I'm out of CSS |
| 20:01 | <AryehGregor> | annevk, oh, you are? Maybe you should remove your name as editor from CSSOM stuff, then. |
| 20:01 | <annevk> | I was kind of hoping the new editors would have done that by now :/ |
| 20:01 | <gsnedders> | Most specs list former editors, with dates. |
| 20:15 | <annevk> | hsivonen: do you think Gecko is willing to standardize it's "universal charset detector"? |
| 20:15 | <annevk> | hsivonen: as another step towards deterministic encoding detection |
| 20:20 | <Ms2ger> | Hey, we've hired tantek and AryehGregor, we might be able to standardize stuff now :) |
| 20:21 | <tantek> | :) |
| 20:21 | <Ms2ger> | annevk, looking for a job, btw? ^^ |
| 20:21 | tantek | is in the depths of specing/fixing text-overflow details |
| 20:22 | <annevk> | Ms2ger: if you're hiring, maybe |
| 20:23 | <Ms2ger> | Well, I don't know who'd actually have to decide that, but perhaps |
| 20:23 | <annevk> | and I just learned iso-2022-jp-2 was added to Gecko for fun times https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=72468 |
| 20:24 | <annevk> | Ms2ger: you mean you're actually a team? |
| 20:24 | <Ms2ger> | I'm a volunteer |
| 20:24 | <Ms2ger> | I have no idea what MoCo people do |
| 20:25 | <annevk> | with "you" I meant you, not MoCo ;) |
| 20:25 | <Ms2ger> | I wish I was a team |
| 20:27 | <Ms2ger> | annevk, you seem to be leaving messages for other annevks, so I should make it clear you'd only get one paycheck ;) |
| 20:27 | <annevk> | the more I read about iso-2022-jp-2 the more I wish I didn't |
| 20:27 | <annevk> | Ms2ger: hehe |
| 20:28 | <Ms2ger> | And yeah, if people threw patches at us, we tended to take them rather easily |
| 20:29 | <annevk> | in this case the module owner actually agreed it would be nice to have |
| 20:29 | <annevk> | but yeah, a couple of years later there was the XForms stuff |
| 20:30 | <Ms2ger> | :/ |
| 20:32 | <annevk> | after that we got more organized as browsers I think, with SVG sort of in between |
| 20:32 | <annevk> | though I suppose now you could argue about multimedia standards |
| 20:32 | <annevk> | which are prolly some new kind of mess |
| 20:37 | <annevk> | also |
| 20:37 | <annevk> | the character encoding fatal stuff |
| 20:37 | <annevk> | is not nearly implemented everywhere |
| 20:37 | <annevk> | for all encodings that is |
| 20:37 | <annevk> | and it's basically only for XML |
| 20:38 | <Ms2ger> | Go, XML! |
| 20:38 | <annevk> | "XML tax" |
| 20:38 | <annevk> | (which in turn somewhat compliantly implemented by browsers because of Acid3, which in turn had the test donated by annevk... o_O) |
| 20:39 | <annevk> | was somewhat* |
| 20:42 | <Ms2ger> | Well, if you're going to blame yourself... |
| 20:42 | <Ms2ger> | Then I don't have to do it :) |
| 20:45 | <annevk> | http://czyborra.com/utf/#UTF-9 (UTF-7,5) |
| 20:46 | <annevk> | Ms2ger: I conveniently forgot if I did it to point out how silly XML was or because I actually believed it was a good idea |
| 20:47 | <annevk> | http://czyborra.com/utf/#UTF-1 is that the same Glenn Adams mentioned in the footnote? |
| 20:48 | <annevk> | not sure why I'm reading this, back to iso-2022-jp... |
| 20:51 | <annevk> | http://unicode.org/mail-arch/unicode-ml/Archives-Old/UML009/0011.html hehe |
| 20:51 | <annevk> | about UTF-8: "It shall be succeeded by UCS-2/4 in the long run." |
| 20:51 | <annevk> | if I was John Gruber, I could have a field day |
| 20:53 | <dglazkov> | John Gruber lives in Philly and is a giant d*ck. annevk, you're 0 for 2 on that. |
| 20:54 | <annevk> | oh hello Android :p |
| 20:55 | dglazkov | regrets calling anyone a d*ck. |
| 20:55 | <dglazkov> | apologies, Internets. |
| 20:56 | <annevk> | to be clear, I don't always agree with him either, I was just referring to his practice of calling people on silly things they've said in the past |
| 20:59 | <TabAtkins> | I finally understand why we have 17 planes in unicode. |
| 20:59 | <Ms2ger> | Oh? |
| 21:00 | <Dashiva> | To be forward-compatible with string theory? |
| 21:00 | <divya> | lolol |
| 21:00 | <TabAtkins> | Becasue the surrogate range can encode 16 planes. |
| 21:00 | <TabAtkins> | And you obviously don't need surrogates to refer to the bmp, so 16+1=17 |
| 21:20 | <jgraham> | Man I missed dglazkov being grumpy |
| 21:20 | <dglazkov> | :D |
| 21:20 | <jgraham> | That was like a once-in-a-lifetime oppertunity |
| 21:27 | <jamesr_> | what's the easy way to parse out query parameters on a page? |
| 21:27 | <jamesr_> | do we have a web platform API for that yet? |
| 21:33 | <Peter`> | abarth was working on a spec about a year ago: https://docs.google.com/a/lvp-media.com/document/edit?id=1r_VTFKApVOaNIkocrg0z-t7lZgzisTuGTXkdzAk4gLU&hl=en |
| 21:34 | <Peter`> | that's now here: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/url/raw-file/tip/Overview.html |
| 21:34 | <Peter`> | With a WebKit bug here: https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=71968 |
| 21:34 | <Peter`> | jamesr_ ^ |
| 21:34 | <Peter`> | proper link for the docs.google.com page: https://docs.google.com/document/edit?id=1r_VTFKApVOaNIkocrg0z-t7lZgzisTuGTXkdzAk4gLU&hl=en |
| 21:36 | <jamesr_> | looks like it's mostly ongoing |
| 21:44 | <annevk> | it's not really being worked on at the moment |
| 21:44 | <annevk> | hopefully later this year |
| 21:48 | <dglazkov> | I must say, I really like G+'s concept of Pages. I guess Facebook has something similar, too. But man, it's so easy to build a blog-like status updatery thing that's also looped into all your social network: https://plus.sandbox.google.com/103330502635338602217/posts |
| 21:51 | <annevk> | "Not Found" |
| 21:52 | <dglazkov> | https://plus.google.com/103330502635338602217/posts |
| 21:52 | <dglazkov> | jeez, what a doofus i am. |
| 21:55 | <jamesr_> | dglazkov, can you control who has write access to a page? |
| 21:55 | <dglazkov> | jamesr_: yep. you can define managers and an owner. |
| 21:55 | <dglazkov> | I would really like for G+ to support embedded images though |
| 22:01 | <annevk> | hmm http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/intl/uconv/ucvja/nsJapaneseToUnicode.cpp#645 is the same as ASCII |
| 22:02 | <abarth> | dglazkov: you need a logo |
| 22:02 | <abarth> | dglazkov: maybe a shadowy figure hiding in the DOM |
| 22:02 | <dglazkov> | :) |
| 22:02 | <TabAtkins> | Like the incognito mode guy! |
| 22:06 | <annevk> | oh another one is secretly a duplicate too |
| 22:06 | <annevk> | Ms2ger can remove some code again if he wants to |
| 22:06 | <jamesr_> | a shadowy figure with well-documented output ports |
| 22:07 | <TabAtkins> | jamesr_: That sounds dirty. |
| 22:31 | <dglazkov> | which spec defines dom ranges and selections nowadays? |
| 22:35 | <smaug____> | dglazkov: dom range is in DOM4 |
| 22:35 | <smaug____> | selection is ... somewhere else |
| 22:36 | <dglazkov> | found it, editing APIs |
| 22:36 | <dglazkov> | smaug____, thanks! |
| 22:37 | <smaug____> | I would assume selection handling is very much non-reviewed |
| 23:15 | <smaug____> | what on earth is beforeload event? |
| 23:16 | <smaug____> | dglazkov: rniwa: do you or someone else familiar with webkit know? |
| 23:16 | <rniwa> | smaug____: beforeload event? |
| 23:16 | <rniwa> | smaug____: do we support that? |
| 23:16 | <smaug____> | apparently yes |
| 23:16 | <jamesr> | safari does |
| 23:16 | <smaug____> | I have no idea what it is |
| 23:16 | <smaug____> | ah, is it safari only |
| 23:16 | <jamesr> | well |
| 23:16 | <jamesr> | they implemented it, i'm not sure if it's on in chromium or not |
| 23:17 | <smaug____> | when does it fire |
| 23:17 | <smaug____> | and why |
| 23:17 | <jamesr> | iirc it's used for safari extensions to do resource blocking stuff |
| 23:17 | <jamesr> | http://developer.apple.com/library/safari/#documentation/Tools/Conceptual/SafariExtensionGuide/MessagesandProxies/MessagesandProxies.html |
| 23:17 | <jamesr> | search for 'beforeload' |
| 23:17 | <smaug____> | ah, you can do preventDefault() |
| 23:20 | <smaug____> | terrible name for the event |
| 23:20 | <smaug____> | and without prefixes or anything |
| 23:21 | <jamesr> | *thumbsup* |
| 23:21 | <jamesr> | the safari extensions message-passing model special-cases that event, i believe |
| 23:22 | <jamesr> | all kinds of weird |
| 23:23 | <smaug____> | I wonder whether beforeload handles things like style="background-image" |
| 23:24 | <jamesr> | test it! |
| 23:27 | <dglazkov> | smaug____: I don't think so |
| 23:27 | <smaug____> | so, I don't understand then the use case |
| 23:27 | <smaug____> | it is like for ad-block stuff... |
| 23:28 | <smaug____> | but doesn't quite work |
| 23:28 | <jamesr> | i think that's correct |
| 23:29 | <dglazkov> | codesearch.google.com/codesearch#search/&exact_package=chromium&q=dispatchBeforeloadEvent%20file:WebCore&type=cs |
| 23:32 | <smaug____> | beforeload is like badly implemented contentpolicy (in gecko) |