| 07:51 | <MikeSmith> | http://www.w3.org/2011/tracking-protection/drafts/tracking-dnt.html#status-resource looks pretty complicated to implement and deply |
| 07:51 | <MikeSmith> | *deploy |
| 09:19 | <zcorpan> | StoneCypher: <xmp> is not <xml> |
| 09:24 | <jgraham> | But it could be components! |
| 09:24 | <jgraham> | <xmp type="html"></xmp> |
| 09:24 | <jgraham> | I wonder if I should seriously propose that |
| 09:30 | <annevk> | hmm maybe we should update the note in http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/domcore/raw-file/tip/Overview.html#dom-node-ownerdocument |
| 09:30 | <annevk> | even though it is true it is the document itself, you will get back null |
| 09:46 | <annevk> | http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/201x/2012/02/12/Schema-dot-org-markup cares about well-formed, transmits as text/html... |
| 09:46 | <zcorpan> | MikeSmith++ http://platform.html5.org/history/ |
| 09:47 | <MikeSmith> | zcorpan: yeah, got a long way to go on that one though |
| 09:47 | <zcorpan> | wasn't type=tel dropped and later added again? |
| 09:48 | <MikeSmith> | yeah |
| 09:48 | <MikeSmith> | I think so |
| 09:48 | <MikeSmith> | don't know whether it's worth noting that on that page not |
| 09:48 | <annevk> | uri got renamed to url after I realized uri is not what I meant to propose |
| 09:49 | <MikeSmith> | oh that I should definitely note the name changed |
| 09:49 | <annevk> | might not have happened until summer 2005, not sure |
| 09:49 | <MikeSmith> | in other news I wonder if/how I can get IRC clients to not disconnect after 4 minutes |
| 09:50 | <wilhelm_> | screen + irssi |
| 09:50 | <gsnedders> | Heh, amusing how much from WA1.0 was droppd |
| 09:50 | <gsnedders> | *dropped |
| 09:51 | <jgraham> | You can also write perl scripts that will respond "screen + irssi" for all lines matching "/IRC client/ig" |
| 09:51 | <zcorpan> | maybe we should use the longdesc approach for everything that was dropped |
| 09:52 | <zcorpan> | screen + irssi |
| 09:59 | <Mike^Droid> | Anyway, seems better now |
| 11:43 | <annevk> | is using XMLHttpRequest's origin for responseXML actually a good idea? |
| 11:43 | <annevk> | how do you go about testing the implications? |
| 11:47 | <jgraham> | Is there some API I can't think of right now that will allow me to run the resolve a url algorithm with a custom base/url? |
| 11:48 | <annevk> | jgraham: new URL(url, base) is the planned API |
| 11:48 | <jgraham> | That sounds nice. |
| 11:48 | <zcorpan> | for now there's <a href="url" xml:base="base"> |
| 11:48 | <jgraham> | Pity I don't live in the future |
| 11:48 | <jgraham> | Yeah, that was the option I was thinking of |
| 11:49 | <jgraham> | It had the string "xml:" in it though which wasn't making me happy :) |
| 11:50 | <zcorpan> | you can avoid that string if you use setAttributeNS |
| 11:51 | <jgraham> | That's in fact what I have to do |
| 11:51 | <zcorpan> | so why is there no spec for css 'appearance'? |
| 11:51 | <jgraham> | It isn't making me any happier |
| 12:10 | <roc> | 'appearance' is hard to spec |
| 12:11 | <wilhelm_> | Interesting. Android has a concept of a density-independent pixel (corresponding to 1 pixel at 160 dpi). |
| 12:15 | <roc> | so does CSS |
| 12:17 | <annevk> | someone is speccing that? |
| 12:17 | <annevk> | what about form controls in general? |
| 12:20 | <zcorpan> | roc: i thought about only supporting two values, 'auto' and 'none' |
| 12:21 | <roc> | that sounds good in theory but isn't compatible with what -moz-appearance and -webkit-appeareance do |
| 12:22 | <roc> | currently we rely on UA rules like "button { -moz-appearance:button; }" etc |
| 12:22 | <zcorpan> | right |
| 12:22 | <roc> | so we'd have to move all that logic from the UA sheet into engine internals |
| 12:22 | <roc> | possibly breaking extensions etc |
| 12:24 | <zcorpan> | http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/rendering.html#the-button-element-0 |
| 12:25 | <annevk> | roc: you'd have to migrate away from the prefix regardless though... |
| 12:25 | <Mike^Droid> | Damn |
| 12:26 | <zcorpan> | i agree we need to figure out how forms should be implemented across browsers, but what i'm interested in right now is allowing authors to opt out of the replaced element rendering and get a normal CSS box for e.g. checkboxes |
| 12:27 | <zcorpan> | whether that is appearance:none or binding:none or something else, i care little |
| 12:33 | <roc> | it's easy to see that appearance:none is the right thing for that |
| 12:33 | <roc> | the problem is defining any other values :-) |
| 12:34 | <roc> | maybe we could just define a reasonable subset that makes sense, and assume vendors will extend it willy-nilly with additional values |
| 12:37 | <annevk> | flight cancelled bah |
| 12:37 | <annevk> | some bomb threat at Schiphol reportedly? (second hand info; "official" reason was weather) |
| 12:38 | <annevk> | brb, gonna find myself a boarding pass for the flight at four |
| 12:38 | zcorpan | hopes annevk survives |
| 12:48 | <Mike^Droid|> | zcorpan: survives what? |
| 12:55 | <Taggnostr> | is http://hg.python.org/cpython/file/e9cf34d56ff1/Lib/test/test_htmlparser.py#l160 valid in html? |
| 12:55 | <Taggnostr> | if I'm reading the standard correctly it shouldn't |
| 13:01 | <Philip`> | Taggnostr: DTD internal subsets aren't allowed - http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/syntax.html#the-doctype defines what is valid |
| 13:02 | <Philip`> | (and the parser will close the doctype after the "EMPTY>") |
| 13:04 | <Taggnostr> | ok, that's what the parser is doing now, so the test was failing |
| 13:08 | <Taggnostr> | should <!> emit an empty (bogus) comment token? |
| 13:10 | <Taggnostr> | it should be http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/tokenization.html#tag-open-state -> markup declaration open state -> bogus comment state |
| 13:14 | <Philip`> | Taggnostr: I believe that is correct |
| 13:14 | <Taggnostr> | ok, thanks again! |
| 13:14 | <Philip`> | and that's what html5lib's testdata/tokenizer/test3.test says |
| 13:17 | <zcorpan> | Mike^Droid: |
| 13:17 | <zcorpan> | http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20120213#l-677 |
| 13:36 | <jgraham> | Taggnostr: Did you see https://gist.github.com/1808356 ? |
| 13:36 | <jgraham> | Seems like you could use that to check your TCs against html5lib |
| 13:46 | <Mike^Droid> | smaug____ I vote for mutation observers work |
| 13:47 | <smaug____> | ? |
| 13:47 | <Mike^Droid> | Bug mail |
| 13:47 | <smaug____> | ah, right |
| 13:47 | <smaug____> | it is really next in my todo list |
| 13:48 | <smaug____> | I was going to implement it long ago, but then something else came up |
| 13:49 | <Mike^Droid> | That's what happened with Jonas and xbox |
| 13:49 | <Mike^Droid> | I'm |
| 13:49 | <Mike^Droid> | Damn |
| 13:49 | <Mike^Droid> | Autocorrect |
| 13:49 | <smaug____> | xbl |
| 13:49 | <Mike^Droid> | Xbl2 |
| 13:49 | <Mike^Droid> | Yeah |
| 13:49 | <jgraham> | Huh? I went to the "revising the W3C process" community group, clicked "join", loggied in, and got a form asking me to accept Charles leaving the group (or something) |
| 13:50 | <jgraham> | Was xbox the thing that stopped Jonas implementing XBL2? |
| 13:52 | <jgraham> | (I'm not really that sure I want to / can join the group, but that was pretty surprising) |
| 14:04 | <annevk> | http://www.nu.nl/binnenland/2739579/bommelder-aangehouden-schiphol.html |
| 14:04 | <annevk> | meh |
| 14:04 | <annevk> | "Bij de KLM waren geen vertragingen." |
| 14:04 | <annevk> | euh |
| 14:09 | <niloy> | how can I check from js if an input box with "pattern" attribute is valid or not? |
| 14:11 | <annevk> | input.validityState.valid ? |
| 14:11 | <annevk> | sorry, input.validity.valid |
| 14:24 | <niloy> | annevk, thank you ^_^ |
| 14:32 | <niloy> | in html5, can I attach a custom error validation function to an input box? |
| 14:32 | <annevk> | yeah |
| 14:32 | <annevk> | use oninput="" |
| 14:33 | <annevk> | and whenever it's invalid you invoke setCustomValidity() iirc |
| 14:36 | <niloy> | oh thanks |
| 15:30 | <annevk> | I'm starting to think we should just commit Adam Klein's patches |
| 15:41 | <annevk> | inbox < 300 |
| 15:42 | <annevk> | teehee |
| 15:48 | <infid> | is there a anything that lets you dynamically type in text anywhere you click on a page, and on top of other objects (think photoshop's text tool)? |
| 15:50 | <jgraham> | infid: Well sure, one could trivially write a bookmarklet/extension to allow that |
| 15:50 | <jgraham> | I am not aware of any specific ones tough |
| 15:50 | <jgraham> | *though |
| 16:05 | <infid> | doesn't seem trivial if i can't find one on google, someone would have done it by now |
| 16:05 | <infid> | everything ends up being one of those wysiwhg js editors |
| 16:55 | <crocket> | When will HTML5 be published as a final standard? |
| 16:56 | <ksweeney> | i think it was something like…2018? |
| 16:56 | <ksweeney> | (expected) |
| 16:57 | <gsnedders> | Whenever there are two implementations that pass each test in the mostly-yet-to-be-written testsuite. |
| 16:57 | <jcranmer> | HTML1x :-P |
| 16:57 | <jgraham> | When will we find a good reason to care about it's Process status? |
| 16:57 | <jgraham> | Hint: we won't |
| 16:57 | <jgraham> | argh |
| 16:57 | <jgraham> | *its* |
| 16:57 | <ksweeney> | 2022, my bad |
| 16:57 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: Patent policy is arguably a good reason to care. |
| 16:57 | <Hixie> | crocket: it's already a final standard |
| 16:58 | <Hixie> | crocket: http://whatwg.org/html |
| 16:58 | <jgraham> | Sorry everyone |
| 16:58 | <crocket> | Hixie: w3c.org only introduces 11th draft. |
| 16:58 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: Patent policy is a good reason to press on with the W3C reforms |
| 16:58 | <Hixie> | crocket: w3.org is not the only group publishing HTML |
| 16:58 | <jcranmer> | the W3C is a bunch of n00bs |
| 16:58 | jcranmer | runs |
| 16:59 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: That's a separate point to whether Process status matters. |
| 16:59 | <jgraham> | jcranmer: YOu are right to run. A correct sentence would have been "The W3C *are* a bunch of n00bs" |
| 16:59 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: Not really |
| 16:59 | <ksweeney> | i took his question to mean REC status |
| 17:00 | <Hixie> | w3c is just a venue, there are people of all levels of competence there including us :-P |
| 17:01 | <jgraham> | I should probably have said "syntactical correct" |
| 17:01 | <jgraham> | since I meant to imply nothing about the correctness of the semantics |
| 17:01 | <jgraham> | But then it would have been even less funny |
| 17:01 | <jgraham> | If you can imagine such a thing |
| 17:01 | <jcranmer> | I speak American English, where we treat collective nouns as singular |
| 17:02 | <crocket> | http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/spec.html introduces the standard as Draft 11. |
| 17:02 | <Hixie> | crocket: seriously though, HTML is a standard today. Unless you're worried about the patent policy status, you don't have to wait for it to get to the most mature status it'll reach, it's there already, whatever the w3c claim. |
| 17:03 | <jcranmer> | what matters is what browsers support, not what standards committees say |
| 17:03 | <crocket> | It's the same standard that whatwg advertises as living standard. |
| 17:03 | <Hixie> | crocket: on, that says "11 February 2012", that's the date it was last updated :-) |
| 17:03 | <gsnedders> | crocket: Did you only start caring about CSS 2.1 last year? |
| 17:03 | <gsnedders> | (when it became a REC) |
| 17:03 | <Hixie> | crocket: yes, i publish the spec more or less identically on the dev.w3.org site with the w3c header and on the whatwg.org site with the whatwg.org header |
| 17:04 | <Hixie> | crocket: they're not quite identical, for political reasons; see the intro of the whatwg.org spec to see what the differences are |
| 17:04 | <Hixie> | crocket: despite what the w3c require me to say in the w3c copy (e.g. that it's a "draft"), it's the most mature HTML specification ever written |
| 17:04 | <jgraham> | jcranmer: The brokenness of your local English derivative is not my concern ;) |
| 17:04 | <Hixie> | crocket: so if you consider HTML4 to have been an acceptable "standard", this is already far beyond that in terms of maturity. |
| 17:05 | <crocket> | ok |
| 17:05 | <crocket> | w3c is an ass. |
| 17:05 | <Hixie> | well again, w3c is just a venue, there are people of all assishnesses there, including us :-) |
| 17:06 | <crocket> | How long would it take to learn HTML5? |
| 17:06 | <crocket> | 16 chapters |
| 17:06 | <jcranmer> | jgraham: you crazy English, thinking you have a monopoly on your language |
| 17:06 | <crocket> | each chapter is very large in volume. |
| 17:06 | <Wilto> | Roughly as long as learning to fix a car. |
| 17:06 | <Hixie> | crocket: if you're an author, try http://developers.whatwg.org/ for a sligthly more accessible version |
| 17:07 | <Hixie> | crocket: learning HTML is a long journey though, I wouldn't worry about learning all of it at once :-) |
| 17:07 | <Hixie> | crocket: you'd want to learn it in conjunction with other technologies like css and javascript |
| 17:07 | <Wilto> | crocket: Learning the document outline scheme is a good start. http://html5doctor.com/outlines/ |
| 17:08 | <crocket> | Perusing HTML5's table of contents makes me puke. |
| 17:08 | <Wilto> | If you’re coming from HTML4, I mean. |
| 17:08 | <crocket> | I don't even know HTML4, well, either. |
| 17:08 | <ksweeney> | just start copying and pasting some code, seeing what happens when you try different orders/attributes etc. |
| 17:08 | <Hixie> | crocket: anything we can do to make it less nauseating? |
| 17:09 | <crocket> | I just know several basic tags. |
| 17:09 | <ksweeney> | THEN start learning to proper way to do things |
| 17:09 | <crocket> | Hixie: A proper learning schedule. |
| 17:09 | <Hixie> | crocket: ah well it's not meant to teach, it's meant to be a standard :-) |
| 17:09 | <Hixie> | crocket: a tutorial would indeed be more useful for you |
| 17:09 | <Hixie> | crocket: not sure if there's a good one to recommend |
| 17:10 | <Hixie> | did lachy's tutorial thing ever get anywhere? |
| 17:10 | <crocket> | There seems to be no authoritative and good tutorial on HTML5. |
| 17:10 | <Hixie> | crocket: well it's not really HTML_5_ you'd want a tutorial on, it's just HTML in general |
| 17:10 | <ksweeney> | *is amazed someone totally new to HTML found this room* |
| 17:10 | <crocket> | Some tutorials may be based on HTML4 mostly. |
| 17:11 | <Hixie> | ksweeney: it's mentioned at the top of teh psec :-) |
| 17:11 | <Hixie> | crocket: HTML"5" is based on HTML4 mostly -) |
| 17:11 | <ferdinandsalis> | By someone new, do you mean me? |
| 17:11 | <crocket> | I don't want to learn HTML4 craps. |
| 17:12 | <Hixie> | crocket: that's like saying you want to start with calculus and not bother with the algebra craps. |
| 17:12 | <Wilto> | Gotta walk before you can run, man. You’re not learning “HTML4,” you’re learning “the basic principles of markup.” |
| 17:12 | <Hixie> | what Wilto said |
| 17:12 | <crocket> | HTML5 differs in many aspects from HTML4 |
| 17:13 | <ksweeney> | but the basics are the same |
| 17:13 | <ksweeney> | as is most of the syntax |
| 17:13 | <crocket> | I just don't want to invest my time twice as much as needed for learning a tutorial. |
| 17:13 | <Wilto> | Think of it as “a new version of markup.” |
| 17:14 | <Wilto> | You need to learn what markup is and how it works before getting into the specifics. |
| 17:14 | <Wilto> | It’s not “Visual Basic” vs. “C++.” You’re not learning two _languages_. |
| 17:14 | <Wilto> | You’re learning one, with variations from version to version. |
| 17:14 | <ferdinandsalis> | @crocket, so what do you mean by html5? |
| 17:14 | <crocket> | What about video tag? |
| 17:15 | <ksweeney> | what about it? |
| 17:15 | <crocket> | Does it now have a volume attribute? |
| 17:15 | <ksweeney> | video tag didn't exist in html4 |
| 17:15 | <crocket> | ferdinandsalis: I mean a proper HTML5 tutorial. |
| 17:15 | <ksweeney> | it's an addition in html5 |
| 17:15 | <jcranmer> | crocket: >80% of HTML5 is HTML4 |
| 17:15 | <jcranmer> | and HTML4, as long as you write it correctly, is proper HTML5 |
| 17:16 | <jcranmer> | where "write it correctly" means "follow what most tutorials will tell you" |
| 17:16 | <crocket> | Last time I checked, <video> tag didn't have the volume attribute. The volume had to be controlled via javascript. |
| 17:16 | <Wilto> | crocket: It sounds to me like you’re looking for a way to claim you “know HTML5” as quickly as possible, and that… is a worrysome philosophy. That’s not the case, yeah? |
| 17:17 | <Hixie> | crocket: it's worth noting that we dropped the "5", in part because it doesn't make sense to think of certain features as "html5" |
| 17:18 | <Hixie> | crocket: we've been adding stuff to HTML for years, at what point is that stuff "HTML5" and at what point is it something else? |
| 17:18 | <crocket> | Hixie: HTML4 was finalized in 1999. |
| 17:18 | <Hixie> | crocket: if you're worried that HTML4 is too old, you'd have to also worry about the things we first added to HTML since then as being too old :-) |
| 17:18 | <crocket> | Anything added since then is HTML5 probably. |
| 17:19 | <Wilto> | …I’m not sure where we’re going with this. |
| 17:19 | <dglazkov> | good morning, Whatwg! |
| 17:19 | <Hixie> | crocket: so HTML4, developed in 2 years or so, is one level, but everything added in the 13 years since is the next level? :-) |
| 17:19 | <crocket> | What a disappointment, video tag doesn't have a volume attribute in HTML5. |
| 17:19 | <crocket> | Hixie: I get the point. |
| 17:20 | <Hixie> | crocket: if you have use cases for which you need a new feature, i recommend filing a bug or e-mailing the list |
| 17:20 | <crocket> | Hixie: I proposed the volume attribute months ago to the mailing list. |
| 17:20 | <crocket> | Nobody seemed to take it seriously. |
| 17:20 | <Wilto> | …but you don’t know HTML? |
| 17:20 | <crocket> | I know just several tags. |
| 17:20 | <Hixie> | crocket: if i haven't replied to it yet then it's still on the list of things for me to process |
| 17:21 | <Hixie> | crocket: and if it has a good use case, it will be considered when i get to it |
| 17:21 | <crocket> | Hixie: Do you sweep the old archives? |
| 17:21 | <Hixie> | crocket: every e-mail that is sent to th ewhatwg list ends up in my imap folders until i reply to it (or decide it didn't have any feedback relating to the specs i edit) |
| 17:22 | <crocket> | Hixie : many internet boards prohibit the use of javascript, and users need a way to control initial volumes of <audio> and <video> tags. |
| 17:22 | <crocket> | That was the point. |
| 17:22 | <ferdinandsalis> | just a random question. what irc clients are you using. any favorites? |
| 17:22 | <crocket> | KVIrc |
| 17:22 | <Hixie> | crocket: k, i'll have to study that when i get to your e-mail |
| 17:23 | <gsnedders> | 200% is a valid volume, right? |
| 17:23 | <gsnedders> | It seems like something that will still need to be filtered… |
| 17:27 | <crocket> | Hixie: http://lists.whatwg.org/htdig.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org/2011-November/033828.html |
| 17:28 | <Ms2ger> | November? He might get to it over the summer, then :) |
| 17:28 | <crocket> | There is no hope. |
| 17:29 | <Ms2ger> | Rather the opposite, hope is all we have :) |
| 17:30 | <Wilto> | “Hope springs eternal in the WHATWG.” |
| 17:31 | <Hixie> | crocket: yeah definitely haven't gotten to that yet, i'm still dealing with feedback from july last year |
| 17:31 | <crocket> | Hixie: You're very diligent. |
| 17:31 | <Hixie> | it's my job :-) |
| 17:31 | <crocket> | How can you keep up for so many months? |
| 17:31 | <jcranmer> | crocket: there's a long lag in dealing with feedback |
| 17:31 | <crocket> | Hixie: Are you paid to do it? |
| 17:31 | <Hixie> | crocket: months? you mean years :-) |
| 17:31 | <Hixie> | yes |
| 17:32 | <crocket> | I should pay myself to do some things. |
| 17:32 | <Hixie> | http://www.whatwg.org/issues/data.html shows how well i've been doing since late 2007 |
| 17:32 | <Hixie> | when i started recording the data |
| 17:32 | <crocket> | Hixie : I praise your diligence. |
| 17:33 | <Hixie> | thanks |
| 17:33 | Ms2ger | remembers last call in November 2009 |
| 17:33 | <Ms2ger> | I've been around for a while, it seems |
| 17:35 | <Ms2ger> | Though I have to say that "5 issues remaining" looks a little silly |
| 17:36 | <zcorpan> | do we have a canned response for "is it not better to leave error handling [or quirks] undefined so that the lack of interop will cause authors to rely on it less and eventually it can be removed altogether"? |
| 17:37 | <gsnedders> | I believe not. |
| 17:37 | <Ms2ger> | "Don't venture onto www-style" |
| 17:41 | <gsnedders> | "The emergence of monopolies in markets (IE in the first decade of the 2000s, WebKit in some mobile demographics) leads to a reliance upon undefined behaviour as authors care about a single implementation. This leads any new entrant to the market having to either be incompatible with existing content or to reverse-engineer the market-holder." |
| 18:16 | <ksweeney> | where was that posted gsnedders? |
| 18:18 | <gsnedders> | Nowhere, I just made it up. :) |
| 18:24 | <bga> | http://webreflection.blogspot.com/2012/02/web-workers-current-status.html |
| 18:24 | <bga> | :( |
| 19:42 | <annevk> | back home for some days |
| 19:42 | <annevk> | prolly in Oslo 23 - 4 or 7 or so |
| 19:45 | <Hixie> | annevk: you still working on fullscreen? |
| 19:46 | <Hixie> | annevk: (i think we need to talk about how fullscreen and <dialog> handle the "make a new stacking context on top of everything" issue in a compatible way) |
| 19:46 | <annevk> | so that part of fullscreen I "outsourced" to hober (and maybe roc) |
| 19:47 | <annevk> | as that's mostly a CSS problem |
| 19:47 | <annevk> | so I'm afraid I cannot help with that |
| 19:47 | <Hixie> | k |
| 19:49 | <annevk> | http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2011Nov/0705.html was what hober emailed in November |
| 19:49 | <annevk> | I have not followed it since |
| 19:53 | <Hixie> | k |
| 19:53 | <Hixie> | i've spoken to him since |
| 19:53 | <Hixie> | will do so again |
| 19:54 | <annevk> | cool |
| 19:55 | <annevk> | btw, about that semantics thread; having common elements is also useful for accessibility and indexing software; not just to make styling easier |
| 19:58 | <AryehGregor> | I love the bugs you get in IE sometimes. "-ms-transform: skew(45deg,45deg )" doesn't parse. |
| 19:58 | <AryehGregor> | Because of the space before the closing parenthesis. |
| 19:58 | <AryehGregor> | Which doesn't cause a problem for *any* other transform. |
| 19:58 | <AryehGregor> | But for skew() it causes a parse error. |
| 19:58 | <annevk> | wow |
| 19:59 | <annevk> | I'd love to see a blog post from someone on the IE team explaining such a bug |
| 19:59 | <AryehGregor> | It's the kind of thing Raymond Chen explains for Windows. |
| 19:59 | <Ms2ger> | "We implement each function by hand in assembly" |
| 19:59 | <ksweeney> | lol |
| 20:00 | <AryehGregor> | IE seems to have much weirder bugs than other browsers, in my testing experience. |
| 20:00 | <Ms2ger> | Also, anybody know if there's version control for khtml somewhere on the web? |
| 20:02 | <AryehGregor> | Also, Opera normalizes all angles to degrees for .style serialization, but doesn't normalize lengths. |
| 20:03 | <annevk> | Ms2ger: the link from http://www.konqueror.org/getthesource/ 404s... |
| 20:03 | <Yuhong> | jgraham: As it happens, Basecamp Next is going to ditch support for IE8. I wonder if it will finally use application/xhtml+xml? |
| 20:03 | <tantek> | why would you ever use application/xhtml+xml? so you can make your site more fragile? |
| 20:04 | <Yuhong> | Defense in depth against XSS attacks, for one. |
| 20:04 | <Yuhong> | Note that I say "defense in depth". It is not a substitute for XSS filters. |
| 20:05 | <Ms2ger> | https://projects.kde.org/projects/kde/kde-baseapps/repository/revisions/master/show/konqueror worked |
| 20:05 | <tantek> | sorry, I don't know application/xhtml+xml helps that at all. All I know is that every site I've seen that's tried to ship application/xhtml+xml fails frequently. |
| 20:05 | <Ms2ger> | Thanks annevk |
| 20:05 | <tantek> | I think I have a bunch of screenshots on Flickr etc. |
| 20:05 | <tantek> | oh yeah, this blog post: http://tantek.com/2010/302/b1/xhtml-dead-long-live-xml-valid-html5 |
| 20:06 | <annevk> | Ms2ger: I think I found it |
| 20:06 | <tantek> | scroll down to "Draconian = FAIL" |
| 20:06 | <annevk> | Ms2ger: very slow :( |
| 20:06 | <annevk> | Ms2ger: https://projects.kde.org/projects/kde/kdelibs/repository/revisions/master/show/khtml |
| 20:06 | <webben> | Yuhong: If browsers give up and parse your broken as XML as HTML (see mobile browser, Opera, etc.) it doesn't really help you. |
| 20:06 | <webben> | *broken XML as HTML |
| 20:06 | <Ms2ger> | \o/ |
| 20:06 | <annevk> | Konquerer is https://projects.kde.org/projects/kde/kde-baseapps/repository/revisions/master/show/konqueror |
| 20:07 | <annevk> | oh, you found that already |
| 20:07 | <Ms2ger> | Now, does the history go back to 3.0... |
| 20:07 | <webben> | Yuhong: i.e. if the idea is an XSS attack might break the XML, you can't count on draconian error handling. |
| 20:08 | <webben> | so sometimes your XML will break and sometimes it will render as text/html, thus increasingly the number of interesting ways XSS could break your site. |
| 20:09 | <Yuhong> | tantek: I have said before about the blog post that making HTML XML-valid and then deliberately omitting the xmlns is stupid. |
| 20:10 | <Yuhong> | tantek: Sometimes it is done by mistake, but deliberately doing it? Huh? |
| 20:13 | <Yuhong> | BTW, it is interesting that Hixie and ChrisWilson now works for the same company. |
| 20:14 | <Ms2ger> | You said that |
| 20:14 | <Ms2ger> | Alright, so I found the changeset I was looking for... |
| 20:15 | <Ms2ger> | Only it doesn't link to any bug |
| 20:15 | <Hixie> | annevk: in general yes, but i don't really see how it helps with <blockquote> |
| 20:16 | <annevk> | fair enough |
| 20:17 | <Ms2ger> | I wonder if Dirk Mueller would remember a change he made in March 2002 |
| 20:17 | <annevk> | dude what are you researching? |
| 20:17 | <Ms2ger> | https://projects.kde.org/projects/kde/kdelibs/repository/revisions/f7785ef82e8fe5e622b3ba65716d35fc33dc2cf8/diff/khtml/html/html_documentimpl.cpp |
| 20:18 | <Hixie> | waah, i don't want to fix https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=14284 |
| 20:18 | <Hixie> | gonna be a huge pain |
| 20:19 | <Ms2ger> | Oh, I probably need that for DOMParser |
| 20:26 | <Ms2ger> | annevk, so is Opera's document.body correct per spec? |
| 20:27 | <annevk> | dunno |
| 20:31 | <Ms2ger> | Interestingly enough, nobody seems to handle document.body = "foo" correctly |
| 20:34 | <kennyluck> | wow, the bug is amazing indeed. The "-ms-transform: skew(45deg,45deg )" thingy is. |
| 20:38 | <tantek> | Yuhong, xmlns itself is stupid, therefore omitting it is harmless. |
| 20:38 | <tantek> | more useless than stupid but same idea |
| 20:38 | <annevk> | oh hey tantek |
| 20:39 | <tantek> | hey annevk |
| 20:39 | <annevk> | people were wondering if you would be opposed to publishing Fullscreen through WebApps |
| 20:39 | <tantek> | I saw the charter thread thing - came up in the CSSWG f2f last week too |
| 20:39 | <tantek> | conclusion was joint document made the most sense |
| 20:39 | <tantek> | so I think Daniel will be sending a chair-to-chair message accordingly |
| 20:39 | <annevk> | most sense huh haha |
| 20:40 | <tantek> | let's just say makes the most companies commit their IP :P |
| 20:41 | <tantek> | plus hey, we've got an editor in each WG so we're all set :) |
| 20:43 | <annevk> | guess so |
| 20:43 | <annevk> | as long as glazou keeps his hands off the editor's draft |
| 20:44 | <annevk> | that came out a bit strong |
| 20:44 | <annevk> | I don't really feel like regressing on the license |
| 20:44 | <annevk> | that's all |
| 20:47 | <Ms2ger> | The chair-to-chair message was sent and is archived on www-archive, I believe |
| 21:00 | <Ms2ger> | AryehGregor, dammit, you made me read Raymond Chen's blog for the last hour :) |
| 21:00 | <Ms2ger> | Also, found a reference to Hixie |
| 21:00 | <AryehGregor> | Where? |
| 21:01 | <AryehGregor> | Oh, Opera follows CSSOM for <angle>, CSSOM is just totally wrong. |
| 21:01 | <Ms2ger> | http://blogs.msdn.com/b/oldnewthing/archive/2009/11/24/9927970.aspx |
| 21:01 | <AryehGregor> | Oh, in the comments. |
| 21:01 | <AryehGregor> | Doesn't count. |
| 21:11 | <tantek> | annevk - is the web apps group ok with the license? |
| 21:12 | <annevk> | yeah |
| 21:12 | <tantek> | oh cool |
| 21:12 | <annevk> | on TR/ it would have a different license, but that doesn't really matter |
| 21:12 | <Hixie> | annevk: please see comment on bug 14284 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=14284 |
| 21:13 | <tantek> | so webapps wg is ok with the editor's draft having the liberal license? |
| 21:13 | <Hixie> | zewt: i assume finishedMessage is an author-provided constant, in your e-mail? |
| 21:13 | <annevk> | Hixie: DOMParser is UTF-8-only |
| 21:14 | <Hixie> | annevk: so Ms2ger is wrong? |
| 21:14 | <Ms2ger> | Am I? |
| 21:14 | <Hixie> | bbiab, food |
| 21:14 | <annevk> | Hixie: dunno, but I guess he wants a hook where you already know the encoding, but maybe that is already present |
| 21:14 | <Hixie> | comment on the bug :-) |
| 21:14 | <Ms2ger> | That exists |
| 21:14 | <Ms2ger> | There's something about a unicode stream |
| 21:15 | <annevk> | wait, DOMParser doesn't even need an encoding |
| 21:15 | <annevk> | right |
| 21:15 | <tantek> | somehow read that as unicorn stream |
| 21:15 | <annevk> | tantek: nobody complained to me thus far; |
| 21:15 | <annevk> | tantek: apart from some people on the W3C Team that is |
| 21:16 | <tantek> | ah ok - I'm meeting with Jaffe today and will note that we think this is a good incremental step forward in the licensing evolution - liberal as editor's see fit on Editor's draft, existing W3C Spec license on TR |
| 21:16 | <tantek> | and that you and I are trying it out with Full Screen and Web Apps WG |
| 21:16 | <annevk> | tantek: XHR / DOM / CORS / etc. are all in Public Domain |
| 21:16 | <tantek> | in TR? |
| 21:17 | <annevk> | no not on TR, but I'm not sure how that matters |
| 21:17 | <annevk> | it's the same text |
| 21:17 | <annevk> | and the license is not exclusive |
| 21:17 | <tantek> | beautiful |
| 21:18 | <tantek> | even better, a pattern of evolution |
| 21:19 | <tantek> | annevk - nicely done with CC0+OWFa on all those editor's drafts. |
| 21:20 | <tantek> | so from those examples, WebApps WG has at least an implicit policy of permitting liberal license on editor's drafts, and existing W3C Doc license on TR/ snapshots. |
| 21:21 | <tantek> | I will bring this up with Jaffe as a model that other WGs should move to |
| 21:23 | <annevk> | tantek: the license text is pretty much an exact copy of what you provided for Fullscreen |
| 21:24 | <tantek> | I noticed :) |
| 21:31 | <annevk> | Ms2ger: wait so why do you need the same algorithm? |
| 21:32 | <annevk> | Ms2ger: can't you skip the whole encoding thingie? |
| 21:32 | <annevk> | Ms2ger: and just say parse this Unicode stream? |
| 21:32 | <Ms2ger> | I... dunno? |
| 21:32 | <Ms2ger> | And hsivonen is away until the 20th, apparently |
| 21:32 | <annevk> | I mean DOMParser only accepts DOMString right? |
| 21:32 | <Ms2ger> | Right |
| 21:33 | <annevk> | so the only weirdness might be unpaired surrogates |
| 21:33 | <Ms2ger> | Don't make me think about those |
| 21:33 | <annevk> | but you don't need prescanning or anything like that |
| 21:33 | <annevk> | or looking at BOMs |
| 21:33 | <annevk> | or defaulting to UTF-8 |
| 21:33 | <annevk> | so I don't think you need any options |
| 21:34 | <Ms2ger> | I'll have hsivonen figure it out :) |
| 21:35 | <annevk> | noob :p |
| 21:36 | <Ms2ger> | That's called "delegation" :) |
| 21:49 | <Ms2ger> | Oh, and Hixie, please have a look at https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=15950 |
| 21:52 | <annevk> | yeah, naming things! |
| 21:52 | <annevk> | favorite part of the job |
| 21:52 | <Ms2ger> | Orange! |
| 21:53 | <annevk> | carrots! |
| 21:53 | <Ms2ger> | xpc_qsThrowMethodFailedWithDetails! |
| 21:55 | <annevk> | whaleTaco() |
| 22:18 | <annevk> | maybe we should just elaborate on the nodes around document modes |
| 22:18 | <annevk> | notes* |
| 23:01 | <roc> | "astral characters" is the dumbest name ever |
| 23:02 | <roc> | except for all the other dumb ones |
| 23:02 | <annevk> | way to classify :p |
| 23:03 | <annevk> | nn all |
| 23:04 | <kennyluck> | we ran into trouble when we tried to localize this term for Firefox. |
| 23:52 | <isherman-book> | Hixie: Looks like the WhatWG discussion regarding http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Autocomplete_Types has more or less settled into something resembling consensus |
| 23:53 | <isherman-book> | What would you recommend as next steps? |