| 00:05 | <rniwa> | Hixie: what would be a good step to move undo manager spec on either whatwg or w3c repository? |
| 00:06 | <rniwa> | good steps* |
| 00:16 | <Hixie> | isherman-book: it's on my list of things to get to in due course |
| 00:16 | <Hixie> | isherman-book: so if "wait" isn't a good answer for you, i guess "implement, convince other vendors to implement, and ship" is probably it :-) |
| 00:17 | <Hixie> | rniwa: you ok maintaining the spec? |
| 00:17 | <rniwa> | Hixie: YES |
| 00:17 | <rniwa> | Hixie: in fact, i'm going to start implementing it in webkit and write tests for it |
| 00:17 | <Hixie> | rniwa: any idea if AryehGregor would be ok with having it under his editing CG? |
| 00:17 | <rniwa> | Hixie: but it's easier for me to convince the webkit community if it were "official" |
| 00:18 | <rniwa> | Hixie: not sure. |
| 00:22 | <rniwa> | AryehGregor: ping |
| 00:23 | <isherman-book> | Hixie: Ok, wasn't sure if there was anything I needed to do other than wait |
| 00:24 | <Hixie> | isherman-book: i'm unfortunately under a lot of backlog |
| 00:25 | <Hixie> | isherman-book: trying to clear that out asap |
| 00:25 | <isherman-book> | Hixie: no problem :) |
| 00:26 | <Hixie> | oh it's a problem :-) |
| 04:10 | <tantek> | hey what's this? http://www.w3.org/community/html5spec/ |
| 04:11 | <tantek> | as recently announced: https://twitter.com/#!/w3c/status/169266573192863744 |
| 05:51 | <MikeSmith> | http://dev.webinos.org/specifications/draft/vehicle.html |
| 05:53 | <MikeSmith> | http://webinos.org/blog/2012/02/08/webinos-demo-series-1-vehicle-api/ |
| 05:53 | <jamesr__> | how old is this? |
| 05:54 | <jamesr__> | somebody should tell them about constructors for events |
| 05:57 | <MikeSmith> | jamesr: from November it seems |
| 05:58 | <MikeSmith> | don't recall having seen that doc discussed anywhere |
| 05:58 | <MikeSmith> | though might have been in Device APIs WG |
| 05:59 | <MikeSmith> | this is from some kind of EU/EC project I guess |
| 06:14 | <MikeSmith> | oh man |
| 06:14 | <MikeSmith> | http://dev.webinos.org/specifications/draft/events.html |
| 10:27 | <remysharp> | Is it defined anywhere that elements with IDs should become global variables on the window with the same name? |
| 10:27 | <remysharp> | I know browsers still do it, but I wasn't sure if it was part of any spec or if it should never be relied on (I generally keep away from relying on it) |
| 10:31 | <zcorpan> | http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/browsers.html#named-access-on-the-window-object |
| 10:32 | <roc> | Gecko doesn't do it in standards mode |
| 10:35 | <zcorpan> | roc: what mode? you mean no-quirks mode? you're not making sense! (https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=15950 ) |
| 10:36 | <roc> | it's late, can you give me some kind of sarcasm emoticon? |
| 10:36 | <zcorpan> | sorry, </sarcasm> |
| 10:37 | <roc> | thanks, just checking |
| 10:37 | <remysharp> | zcorpan: okay, so technically it's totally legit - I had assumed for a long time that it was just a dirty thing browser (read: IE) did |
| 10:37 | <roc> | it is a dirty thing |
| 10:37 | <remysharp> | no doubt about that |
| 10:37 | <roc> | zcorpan: in that bug, you should accuse Hixie of ignoring reality |
| 10:38 | <remysharp> | confuses the hell out of folk I teach as to why their code works, yet the variable wasn't declared |
| 10:38 | <zcorpan> | roc: feel free to comment on the bug |
| 10:38 | <remysharp> | then they go asking me why did I declare the variable if it's already there... |
| 10:38 | <roc> | I'm fighting enough battles at the moment, thanks |
| 10:38 | <zcorpan> | remysharp: it's not totally legit since browsers are considering limiting it to quirks mode |
| 10:38 | <roc> | remysharp: "so it'll work in Firefox" |
| 10:39 | <remysharp> | zcorpan: good stuff. that makes me feel like it's a little more sane |
| 10:43 | <jgraham> | remysharp: Oh, well I'm sure you will be dissuaded of that notion soon |
| 10:44 | <remysharp> | jgraham: aye, I never expect to feel sane about how browsers do things for longer than a couple of hours. Otherwise I'd just be mismanaging my expectations :) |
| 12:15 | <Taggnostr> | jgraham, thanks for the code! I haven't tried it yet, but I'll try to find some time to take a look |
| 12:16 | <jgraham> | Taggnostr: np. We should probably ship something like that with html5lib |
| 12:16 | <Taggnostr> | the award for the broken markup of the day goes to: <img width=902 height=250px src="/sites/default/files/images/homepage/ISL_cordless_902X250.jpg" /*qui manca alt--capire*/ /> |
| 12:17 | <Taggnostr> | that "comment" means "/*here alt is missing--understand*/" |
| 12:18 | <Taggnostr> | probably they asked someone to validate the page and he didn't even know how to write an html comment and wasn't even smart enough to figure out what the error that the validator gives means |
| 12:18 | <Taggnostr> | so he left a js comment in the middle of the tag as a remainder |
| 12:19 | <bga> | where is get lastest chromium? anyone from google plz answer me |
| 12:19 | <bga> | http://build.chromium.org/f/chromium/snapshots/Win_Webkit_Latest/ |
| 12:19 | <bga> | is bit outdated |
| 12:32 | <myakura> | bga: http://download-chromium.appspot.com/ will help you. |
| 12:32 | <myakura> | (I'm not a Googler though.) |
| 12:34 | <bga> | myakura thanks |
| 12:40 | <annevk> | http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2012Feb/0083.html o_O |
| 12:40 | <annevk> | if that passes |
| 12:40 | <annevk> | lol |
| 13:39 | <bga> | gsnedders are you here? |
| 15:28 | <annevk> | man why are [ and ] not allowed in the frigging query component in URLs? |
| 15:28 | <annevk> | that's nonsense |
| 15:29 | <ksweeney> | or the domain? I would love http://[][][][][][][].com |
| 15:29 | <ksweeney> | :D |
| 15:29 | <annevk> | the difference is that does not even work, whereas putting them elsewhere works perfectly fine |
| 15:44 | <annevk> | abarth: you around? |
| 15:44 | <annevk> | abarth: should CORS require Origin:null or Origin:<chain of origins>? |
| 15:44 | <annevk> | abarth: would have been better if the Origin RFC decided on this :( |
| 15:45 | <annevk> | abarth: if you're not around I'll prolly check in "null" |
| 15:45 | <annevk> | Velmont: ^^ |
| 16:17 | <annevk> | haven't heard anything from ALA in years, suddenly two articles |
| 16:23 | <annevk> | whoa Zurich is now more expensive than Oslo or Tokyo |
| 16:23 | <annevk> | http://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2012/02/daily-chart-7 |
| 17:59 | <[tm]> | annevk: +1 to the Recovering from XML Community Support Group |
| 18:12 | <[tm]> | "the main reason is that from the beginning we (the XML crowd) have been arrogant, over confident and have made a significant design error." |
| 18:14 | <othermaciej> | where's that quote from? |
| 18:16 | <StoneCypher> | othermaciej: http://eric.van-der-vlist.com/blog/ |
| 18:26 | <[tm]> | "we have been proven wrong and that HTML has been enough to scale up to the amazing applications we see today." |
| 19:41 | <annevk> | http://blog.ioactive.com/2012/02/ssl-traffic-analysis-on-google-maps.html is pretty interesting |
| 19:41 | <annevk> | would SPDY make that more complicated because it all becomes a single stream? |
| 19:52 | <Hixie> | annevk: only if you were actually using more than just google maps at a time, as far as i can tell |
| 19:52 | <Hixie> | annevk: if i understand correctly, the only real solution is to pad all requests and responses and make them on a strict schedule |
| 19:53 | <Hixie> | annevk: hard core encrypted channels just send continual noise at the max bandwidth and when they want to send data they replace the noise with the data |
| 19:53 | <Hixie> | annevk: assuming a good encryption algorithm, my understanding is that you then can't tell what's being sent |
| 19:53 | <Hixie> | annevk: of course you can still tell a lot e.g. that there is a connection, so that both sides exist, which is an issue e.g. in war situations |
| 19:54 | <Hixie> | abarth would know more |
| 20:06 | <annevk> | sounds pretty fascinating |
| 20:13 | <annevk> | I wonder when w3.org will go TLS-only |
| 20:23 | <abarth> | traffic analysis is really hard to defeat |
| 20:23 | <abarth> | at least without cover traffic |
| 20:23 | <Hixie> | isn't it essentially impossible without cover traffic? |
| 20:36 | <annevk> | Microsoft research paper writes "XmlHttpRequest" o_O |
| 20:37 | <abarth> | Hixie: i try not to say "impossible" :) |
| 20:37 | <Hixie> | fair enough |
| 20:37 | <abarth> | i think Tor tries to defeat traffic analysis without cover traffic |
| 20:37 | <abarth> | but it's unclear how successful they are |
| 20:38 | <Hixie> | don't they use other people's traffic as cover traffic? |
| 20:38 | <abarth> | aren't you the one who says "the impossible just takes longer?" |
| 20:38 | <Hixie> | i mean it's not as good as a continuous stream, but... |
| 20:38 | <abarth> | Hixie: yes, they mix traffic from multiple sources, but they have problems because that traffic can be removed statistically |
| 20:38 | <abarth> | its more like noise |
| 20:39 | <Hixie> | wow, interesting |
| 20:39 | <abarth> | so, then you get into shaping the traffic by adding queues and delays |
| 20:39 | <abarth> | etc |
| 20:39 | <abarth> | there's a whole literature about it |
| 20:39 | <Hixie> | i'm sure |
| 20:41 | <annevk> | is it even possible to design a system that does not have these flaws? |
| 20:41 | <annevk> | can you measure anything other than amount of data? |
| 20:43 | <Hixie> | timing |
| 20:43 | <annevk> | oh, how fast the connection is? how often requests are made, etc? |
| 20:44 | <Hixie> | for example, if a site sends a ping every 2s in one mode and a ping every 2.5s in another mode, even if they're the same size, you can tell which mode the app is in |
| 20:44 | <Hixie> | just by looking at when the packets are sent |
| 20:44 | <annevk> | I guess that can tell you quite a bit |
| 20:44 | <Hixie> | the general topic here is called "side channel attacks". |
| 20:44 | <Hixie> | q.v. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Side_channel_attack |
| 20:45 | <Hixie> | power consumption is another one that that page mentions |
| 20:45 | <annevk> | that is, size plus timing seem like vectors that will turn out to be pretty unique |
| 20:45 | <Hixie> | e.g. you can tell what's going on based on how much power you are pulling -- if it's just idling, it'll use less power than if it's doing heavy computation |
| 20:46 | <Hixie> | also in the case of TLS communication on the web there's things like DNS requests, the IP address of the communication's destination, etc |
| 20:47 | <Hixie> | e.g. you can tell if someone is logging in on big sites because they get redirected through a separate login service |
| 20:48 | <Hixie> | even if the data is mixed in with noise like i was suggesting earlier, you can also learn things by watching what happens if you flip random bits in the stream |
| 20:48 | <Hixie> | since the receiving end might just discard the noise rather than verify that it wasn't tampered with |
| 20:48 | <Hixie> | (encryption typically avoids this, q.v. integrity) |
| 20:49 | <Hixie> | encryption systems, i should say |
| 20:49 | <Hixie> | encryption itself doesn't |
| 22:06 | <gsnedders> | bga: I am here now, if at all relevant. |
| 22:09 | <_bga> | gsnedders i tried to hack js. Add Proxy object that throw error is property is undefined instead silent null value before Object but failed because engines isnt ready to such tricks |
| 22:10 | <_bga> | chrome just stop working, ff fall to recursion |
| 22:11 | <gsnedders> | bga: My brain can't parse what you just said. |
| 22:14 | <_bga> | i changed fundamental behavour. in js {}.foo == undefined but i do Object.prototype.__proto__ = some proxy object. so now {}.foo throw 'Getting unexisting property' |
| 22:14 | <_bga> | understand? |
| 22:14 | <_bga> | i try to make js safer |
| 22:17 | <gsnedders> | _bga: Ah. |
| 22:17 | <gsnedders> | _bga: Object.prototype.__proto__ is not like __proto__ on anything else in SpiderMonkey, IIRC. |
| 22:18 | <gsnedders> | (Though quite what its semantics is I am unsure.) |
| 22:20 | <gsnedders> | Not really surprising that trying to mutate the Object prototype object's prototype doesn't work. |
| 22:20 | <_bga> | Object.prototype.__proto__ = {a: 1, __proto__: null}; ({}).a == 1 work in v8 too |
| 22:22 | <_bga> | but main idea that new apis open such abilities so engines will be ready |
| 22:25 | <_bga> | iirc opera's String#concat work incorrectly w/ deleted toString/valueOf |
| 22:26 | <gsnedders> | Shouldn't as of 11.60 |
| 22:30 | <isherman> | tantek: You previously expressed some technical concerns about http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Autocomplete_Types on Google+. Wanted to check, have your concerns been addressed by renaming the tokens to match hCard where possible? |
| 22:30 | <_bga> | gsnedders btw what your opinion? is js should move to full dynamic (lisp way) or static ? |
| 22:31 | <_bga> | i guess - js was born as dynamic and should move to better dynamic |
| 22:31 | <gsnedders> | _bga: Dynamic what? |
| 22:32 | <gsnedders> | _bga: Dynamic typing? |
| 22:33 | <_bga> | runtime access to local hash table of vars (prototyped chained), object has many prototypes, instance eval |
| 22:33 | <_bga> | runtime access to stack |
| 22:34 | <gsnedders> | _bga: Okay, in the sense of it being a dynamic language. |
| 22:34 | <_bga> | make stack[stack.length - 1].locals.a = 1 possible |
| 22:34 | <gsnedders> | _bga: On the whole I like the balance it has now. |
| 22:35 | <gsnedders> | Proxies I'm still on the fence about whether I think they're a good idea, because they have the same semantic issues as host objects can (e.g., [[HasProperty]] and [[GetProperty]] may not match up). |
| 22:39 | <_bga> | i can not balance between dynamic and static world. one my ego like full dynamic for experiments, other my ego want extreme static for real use |
| 22:41 | <gsnedders> | _bga: Runtime access to stack used to be possible in SpiderMonkey (through __scope__, I think it was called) and arguments.caller (so arguments.caller.__scope__, for example). |
| 22:45 | <_bga> | hm |
| 22:46 | <_bga> | bad that is dont work anymore |
| 22:48 | <gsnedders> | _bga: Stuff like that is hell for performance given dynamic typing, though |
| 22:48 | <gsnedders> | _bga: You get any TC for concat with deleted toString/valueOf? |
| 22:50 | <_bga> | now work corectly |
| 22:52 | <_bga> | gsnedders so if you want perfomance (or community/market force you) => way of more static stuff |
| 22:53 | <gsnedders> | _bga: We can't really make it less dynamic, though, more just optionally static |