| 05:37 | <AryehGregor> | This looks bad: https://tbpl.mozilla.org/php/getParsedLog.php?id=11839094&tree=Try |
| 05:37 | <AryehGregor> | firefox-bin(345,0x106e46000) malloc: *** error for object 0x17ffee000: pointer being freed was not allocated |
| 05:38 | <padenot> | AryehGregor: sure about the channel ? |
| 05:38 | <AryehGregor> | Drat, sorry. |
| 05:38 | <AryehGregor> | Thanks. |
| 05:38 | <AryehGregor> | That was meant for #developers. |
| 05:58 | <hsivonen> | why has http://www.ie6countdown.com/ stuck to February data? Did some countries regress since then and MS is too embarrassed to update the numbers? |
| 05:58 | <hsivonen> | or did the person in charge of the site leave MS or something? |
| 07:15 | <annevk> | hober: cpearce is not subscribed to public-webapps |
| 07:16 | <annevk> | hober: discussing fullscreen there seems bad at least until everyone agreed to subscribe to another mailing list. |
| 07:55 | <Jaycob> | hey, I'm developing an app that uses application storage. how can I bypass that while developing, because it doesn't update anything unless the manifest file gets updated |
| 08:08 | <moo-_-> | Jaycob: I would handle this kind of things by serving development HTML from different URL and disable manifest="" on the server side |
| 08:08 | <Jaycob> | ok! thought about that too. thanks! |
| 08:09 | <Jaycob> | btw chrome gives me an error when it doesn't find the manifest file when offline (naturally), and I'm wondering wether this is supposed to give an error or am I doing something wrong? |
| 08:26 | <othermaciej> | does anyone know if the CSS WG has a bug/issue tracker other than the mailing list? |
| 08:27 | <othermaciej> | I'm wondering if there is some other way to report the issue that Media Queries doesn't define when media queries are true or false in most cases |
| 08:27 | <othermaciej> | it is a PR but it would be nice to at least ensure this is fixed for the next version |
| 08:28 | <Ms2ger> | Yes, but you're not allowed to use them |
| 08:29 | <Ms2ger> | (Depending on the spec, bugzilla, tracker, a text file somewhere, or the editors' heads) |
| 08:29 | <MikeSmith> | they have a bugzilla components |
| 08:29 | <MikeSmith> | 30+ of them |
| 08:29 | <MikeSmith> | I know because I created them |
| 08:29 | <Ms2ger> | But glazou will shout at you if you file anything there |
| 08:29 | <MikeSmith> | heh |
| 08:29 | <MikeSmith> | um |
| 08:29 | <Ms2ger> | They're only for editors to track the www-style threads |
| 08:30 | MikeSmith | struggles for something constructive to say |
| 08:30 | <othermaciej> | I see |
| 08:30 | <MikeSmith> | that's fucktarded |
| 08:30 | <othermaciej> | so as a non-member of the CSS WG, there is no way to report a comment and be sure it won't get lost? |
| 08:30 | <Ms2ger> | No comment |
| 08:30 | <MikeSmith> | myself, I would just use the bugzilla anyway |
| 08:30 | <MikeSmith> | dude is going to find something to shout about regardless |
| 08:31 | <othermaciej> | I am not sure I care about this issue enough to suffer the wrath of glazou |
| 08:31 | <jgraham> | Maybe tatoo it onto TabAtkins? |
| 08:31 | <MikeSmith> | heh |
| 08:32 | <othermaciej> | but I will be amused if the spec goes to REC while still not actually defining the MQ processing model at all (which seems very likely to happen) |
| 08:32 | <othermaciej> | and more so if the same is true for the next version |
| 08:32 | <MikeSmith> | wouldn't be the first time |
| 08:32 | <Ms2ger> | Or the last |
| 08:33 | <MikeSmith> | othermaciej: speaking of trying to find something constructive to say, I have the same feeling about the chairs decision on meta generator |
| 08:33 | <Ms2ger> | s/meta generator/*/ |
| 08:33 | <othermaciej> | MikeSmith: do you think we should have agreed to reopen it based on the info provided? |
| 08:33 | <MikeSmith> | for now I'll just say I feel zero motivation to actually ever again spend any time contributing to any more change proposals |
| 08:33 | <MikeSmith> | othermaciej: yeah, I do |
| 08:33 | <othermaciej> | MikeSmith: or made a different decision in the first place? |
| 08:33 | <MikeSmith> | that too |
| 08:34 | <othermaciej> | the thing we pretty clearly asked for, both in the original decision, and in response to the first reopen attempt, was specifics and evidence |
| 08:34 | <othermaciej> | I don't feel like it is that hard to find a few scraps of specific data |
| 08:35 | <MikeSmith> | I just don't want to do the monkey dance, man |
| 08:35 | <othermaciej> | well, the bar for reopening an issue has to be higher than the bar for opening it in the first place |
| 08:35 | jgraham | wodners if you are really supposed to get wyciwyg URLs in firefox history UI when you document.open/document.write/document.close |
| 08:35 | <othermaciej> | or nothing will even be settled |
| 08:35 | <MikeSmith> | I think the information in that CP makes it quite clear what's wrong with the exception |
| 08:35 | <jgraham> | *wonders |
| 08:35 | <Ms2ger> | jgraham, in general, I wouldn't think so |
| 08:35 | <Ms2ger> | hsivonen, ^ |
| 08:36 | <Ms2ger> | othermaciej, are you suggesting anything will ever be settled now? |
| 08:36 | <othermaciej> | I will add that I myself am not even sure the exception is a good idea, but the HTML WG process is optimized for procedural fairness, not for producing the outcome that is most technically optimal in the opinion of the chairs |
| 08:36 | <jgraham> | (iirc, per spec, doing document.write on an existing document shouldn't create a new history position at all)] |
| 08:36 | <jgraham> | (need to write some tests for that one day) |
| 08:37 | <MikeSmith> | othermaciej: it's certainly become optimized that way in practice |
| 08:37 | <othermaciej> | I would much prefer to see a way to declare alt as intentionally unavailable due to wysiwygosity that is scoped instead of global to the document, but no one proposed such a thing |
| 08:38 | <othermaciej> | really on all these reopen requests, whichever way the chairs decide it will make a significant group of people mad |
| 08:38 | <othermaciej> | people who lost one time will be super annoyed to do extra work and still lose |
| 08:38 | <othermaciej> | people who won the last time will be super annoyed to have that jerked out from under them |
| 08:38 | <MikeSmith> | actually I meant it seems in practice to have become optimized for procedural stuff rather for evaluation of what's technically optimal. Period. |
| 08:39 | <MikeSmith> | othermaciej: there is very likely now going to be a formal objection on that issue |
| 08:39 | <webben> | othermaciej: There was never a CP proposing scoped noalt? |
| 08:39 | <MikeSmith> | so I guess it's eventually going to end up going to the Director |
| 08:39 | <othermaciej> | webben: I don't believe so |
| 08:39 | <webben> | would it help if someone produced one now? |
| 08:40 | <othermaciej> | that's one problem with the CP process, it tends to polarize people to the extremes |
| 08:40 | <webben> | It certainly seems like it would have more consensus than page-wide exemptions |
| 08:40 | <othermaciej> | webben: if it included new info that was sufficient to reopen the issue (e.g. argue that it meets all the use cases of generator but with less harm, with at least some specific piece of data to point to), then it would probably make a difference |
| 08:41 | <MikeSmith> | I don't know anybody who has ever actually expressed strong support for the meta generator exception |
| 08:42 | <othermaciej> | MikeSmith: as with past FOs, I think I can live with that given the record (initial survey input, decision, request for particular kinds of additional info to reopen, refusal to provide such) |
| 08:42 | <MikeSmith> | it's not refusal to provide such |
| 08:42 | <othermaciej> | director may overrule, but that is his prerrogative |
| 08:42 | <MikeSmith> | it's disagreement about the need to provide it |
| 08:43 | <MikeSmith> | I regret at this point ever actually implementing the meta generator exception in the validator code |
| 08:43 | <MikeSmith> | and I'm not seriously considering to change the way it's implemented so that it's not on by default, and users have to opt in to it |
| 08:44 | <MikeSmith> | because it's really a very bad idea for validation |
| 08:44 | <MikeSmith> | a misfeature |
| 08:44 | <Ms2ger> | s/not/now/? |
| 08:44 | <MikeSmith> | yeah, now |
| 08:44 | <othermaciej> | trying to find the original ISSUE-31 questionnaire |
| 08:44 | <othermaciej> | do you know if there is a way to look at all questionnaires for a given WG? |
| 08:45 | <MikeSmith> | yeah, lemme find it |
| 08:46 | <othermaciej> | there were three of them, but I can only find the two that are not relevant to generator |
| 08:47 | <othermaciej> | aha, http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/issue-31-80-validation-objection-poll/results |
| 08:47 | <MikeSmith> | othermaciej: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/closed |
| 08:48 | <othermaciej> | Hixie and hsivonen argued in favor of generator in the survey |
| 08:48 | <othermaciej> | Leif and Laura against |
| 08:48 | <othermaciej> | this covers both survey comments and CPs |
| 08:49 | <MikeSmith> | yeah, I would like to hear more from Henri about it |
| 08:49 | <othermaciej> | to me the use case seems valid but I wish someone had proposed a cleaner mechanism to address it |
| 08:49 | <othermaciej> | global per-doc switches do not strike me as elegant or wise |
| 08:49 | <MikeSmith> | yup |
| 08:50 | <othermaciej> | but the only options that were placed on the table were "don't meet this use case" or "use this somewhat squirrely solution for the use case" |
| 08:51 | <othermaciej> | I think it likely that a well-written proposal for a scoped mechanism to meet the use case (such as noalt) would have beaten both those options |
| 09:01 | <hsivonen> | jgraham: yes, you are really supposed to get wyciwyg URLs in Firefox. |
| 09:01 | <hsivonen> | jgraham: I don't like it, because WebKit get away with non-support for history navigation to document.open()ed and .written content |
| 09:02 | <jgraham> | hsivonen: Doesn't the spec follow webkit? |
| 09:02 | <jgraham> | (on this point :) |
| 09:04 | <jgraham> | Also, I think Opera wants to follow WebKit on this point because in general getting an extra history position for document.write seems like it will create badness from the user point of view |
| 09:05 | <jgraham> | On the basis that the typical use will be something like document.write into an about:blank iframe |
| 09:15 | <jgraham> | Oh, I have now read the spec more closely and I am wrong about the document.open thing |
| 09:16 | <jgraham> | But I still think it makes sense to folloow webkit |
| 09:43 | <jgraham> | hsivonen: I filed https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17093 |
| 10:00 | <hsivonen> | jgraham: my vague recollection is that the spec is mostly WebKit-ish here |
| 10:00 | <hsivonen> | except of course the bug you just filed, apparently |
| 10:18 | <Stevef> | othermaciej: how about allowing conformance checkers to provide a switch to suppress no alt for name=generator pages? that would provide the functionality for those who require it without it being silent |
| 10:19 | <othermaciej> | Stevef: interesting idea, I guess it would be sort of like the now-gone "private communications" exception |
| 10:20 | <Stevef> | othermaciej: i discussed this with mike smith with his conformance checker implementor hat on and he said it sounded OK |
| 10:21 | <othermaciej> | I have no problem with it, but if anyone wanted to push it into the HTML WG's HTML5 spec at this point, it would require a Change Proposal with some reasonable level of new information indicating why it's better |
| 10:22 | <Stevef> | othermaciej: making it an opt in provides the point of letting people know that using it only suppresses errors does not make the page conforming |
| 10:22 | <Stevef> | othermaciej: right I am unsure about my desire to write another change proposal, just trying to avoid FO if possible |
| 10:23 | <Ms2ger> | "Are there other cases in HTML where an attribute value contains more than one URI?" |
| 10:23 | <Ms2ger> | head profile=""! |
| 10:23 | <othermaciej> | good of you to do so; unfortunately I have to go to bed so I can't provide more ideas |
| 10:25 | <Stevef> | othermaciej:np |
| 10:32 | <hsivonen> | oh. Stevef left |
| 10:33 | <hsivonen> | Stevef: In case you continue to read the logs: The whole point of the generator thing is to make it so that *by default* validators are silent about missing alt in generated HTML so that generator developers don't feel a need to add bogus alt to silence validators. |
| 10:34 | <hsivonen> | Stevef: So if there was a switch, it would have to default to name=generator content being silent about missing alt and flipping the switch would turn on missing alt reporting. |
| 10:40 | <hsivonen> | Stevef: see http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20120518#l-384 |
| 10:40 | <Stevef> | hsivonen: I don't get the logic that it must be silent by default |
| 10:41 | <hsivonen> | Stevef: not getting the logic is the crux of the disagreement, I think |
| 10:41 | <Stevef> | hsivonen:isn't an informed choice better? |
| 10:42 | <hsivonen> | Stevef: the whole generator thing is based on the observation that people who write HTML generators want to make the generated output get a clean report from a validator |
| 10:42 | <hsivonen> | Stevef: so if the validator complains *by default*, they'll change the generator's output to make it not complain |
| 10:42 | <hsivonen> | Stevef: the easiest adjustment being outputting bogus alt |
| 10:43 | <hsivonen> | (if you take a way the option of emitting <meta name=generator> and having that silence validators *by default*) |
| 10:43 | <hsivonen> | Stevef: emitting <meta name=generator> is an informed choice on the part of the person writing the HTML generator |
| 10:44 | <hsivonen> | Stevef: flipping a flag in the validator is a choice by the person invoking the validator |
| 10:44 | <Stevef> | hsivonen: the use of genertaor does not bear that out |
| 10:44 | <hsivonen> | Stevef: not legacy use, sure |
| 10:46 | <hsivonen> | Stevef: anyway, the point is making it so that an HTML generator writer has no incentive to emit bogus alt in order to make it seem that the generator can generate "valid HTML" |
| 10:46 | <Stevef> | many CMS's use name=generator by default any downstream user has to a know about its presence and its effect |
| 10:47 | <Stevef> | hsivonen: i understand the arguement never seen any data to back it up |
| 10:48 | <hsivonen> | Stevef: I've not aware of quantitative data, but I've seen enough anectodal evidence to believe it. Of course, I haven't recorded all the anecdotes when I've seen them. |
| 10:48 | <hsivonen> | It's generally hard to substantiate anecdotal experience of having seen stuff after the fact. |
| 10:49 | <hsivonen> | It would probably be possible to come up with quantitative data by analysing various HTML4 generators and seeing if they generate bogus alts |
| 10:50 | <hsivonen> | (and make the assumption that the obvious explanation that everyone who has ever written a generator knows to be true explains the bogus alts) |
| 10:51 | <Stevef> | hsivonen: i looked at a range of wysywig tools some do some don't |
| 10:51 | <hsivonen> | Stevef: is the "some don't" bucket larger than {Dreamweaver}? |
| 10:52 | <hsivonen> | Dreamweaver has had enough a11y people yelling at them |
| 10:53 | <hsivonen> | also, the "some don't" bucket doesn't disprove the existence of the "some do" bucket |
| 10:53 | <Stevef> | i was stalking about editors that add name=generator by default dreamweaver doesn't appear to do that for me |
| 10:53 | <hsivonen> | the spec tries to empty the "some do" bucket |
| 10:54 | <hsivonen> | Stevef: Dreamweaver is a pro tool. It generally doesn't add stuff you don't ask for. |
| 10:58 | <Stevef> | hsivonen: I guess we have to agree to disagree I made my points here: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposal/meta_name%3Dgenerator_does_not_make_missing_alt_conforming |
| 10:59 | <Stevef> | hsivonen: its not the end of the world... |
| 11:00 | <Stevef> | hsivonen:as i said the maciej earlier i was looking for a way out of the impasse that leads to FO |
| 11:01 | <Stevef> | hsivonen: but its out of my hands now as it has been taken up formally by judy and the force... |
| 11:01 | <hsivonen> | Stevef: FWIW, I think "WYSIWYG" is immaterial. E.g. mass upload of photos to service that displays them in HTML wrappers faces the issue of not having alt text available without being WYSIWYG |
| 11:02 | <hsivonen> | Stevef: what's "the force"? |
| 11:02 | <Stevef> | a11y taskforce |
| 11:02 | <hsivonen> | ah |
| 11:02 | <Stevef> | i was being mischevious |
| 11:04 | <Stevef> | hsivonen: for the mass upload use case i would suggest using figure/figcaption as it provides way to caption an image with an unambigous semantic that says this a caption, even if that caption is a filename |
| 11:05 | <hsivonen> | It's unclear to me, why it is useful to have an unambiguous semantic for caption if the camption is nonsensical |
| 11:06 | <hsivonen> | s/camption/caption/ |
| 11:08 | <Stevef> | hsivonen: it depends on if you think the filename is nonsensical. note in the vast majority of cases photo uploads are presented inside a link, so AT heaurstucs kick in and the filename is or worse is announced, difference with using figcaption is that at least the user can know its not a text alternative |
| 11:10 | <hsivonen> | Stevef: I mean that a caption like IMG_1234.jpg is only good for getting an identifier for the image. And if you want to grab an identifier, you might as well invoke the context menu and copy the URL of the image. |
| 11:11 | <Ms2ger> | jgraham, did someone file a bug to support the StorageEvent constructor in Opera? |
| 11:11 | <jgraham> | Umm, maybe? |
| 11:11 | <Ms2ger> | Would you mind checking? :) |
| 11:12 | <Ms2ger> | I'd check myself, but, well, you knpw |
| 11:12 | <hsivonen> | Do the broadcasters expect general-purpose browsers to get support for MPEG2-TS? |
| 11:12 | <hsivonen> | or do they intend to use it in off-the-shelf commodity set-top boxes for their walled gardens? |
| 11:13 | <jgraham> | Ms2ger: Turns out that you did |
| 11:13 | <hsivonen> | I hope they realize that MPEG2 visual licensing is even worse than H.264 and is likely to get even more opposition from vendors of general-purpose browsers |
| 11:13 | <Ms2ger> | jgraham, go me :) |
| 11:13 | <Ms2ger> | Did anybody notice? |
| 11:14 | <hsivonen> | or is this about H.264 in .ts because .mp4 doesn't stream? |
| 11:14 | <hsivonen> | (.ogg and .webm FTW for streaming) |
| 11:15 | <jgraham> | Ms2ger: Yeah, but it isn't exactly a showstopper |
| 11:15 | <jgraham> | :) |
| 11:16 | <jgraham> | (if there is some reason that the priority needs to be enexpectedly high, please let me know) |
| 11:17 | <Ms2ger> | jgraham, not really, unless you care about recs |
| 11:17 | <jgraham> | Well I think you know that *I* don't |
| 11:18 | <Ms2ger> | I am not surprised :) |
| 11:23 | <hsivonen> | if I do perl -pi -e 's/foo/bar/', what should I use to use an Unicode apostrophe as foo and an ASCII apostrophe as bar? |
| 11:23 | <hsivonen> | i.e. what escapes? |
| 11:24 | <hsivonen> | when the files are in UTF-8 |
| 11:26 | <webben> | Stevef: Wait … how does <figcaption>IMG_1234.jpg</figcaption> indicate "IMG_1234.jpg" is _not_ a text alternative in a way that <img src=IMG_1234.jpg> does not, given that <figcaption> implies a label (accName) and @src can only be repaired into a label (accName)? |
| 11:29 | <Philip`> | hsivonen: \x{1234} will give you U+1234, and it sounds like doing "... -e 'use open (:std :utf8); s/foo/bar/'" will make it treat STDIN/STDOUT as UTF-8 |
| 11:29 | <Stevef> | webben: in firefox for example figcaption is mapped to IA2 caption role, also figcaption does not map to img accname itt maps to figure (role=group) accname (again in firefox as its the only browser that has implemented figure/figcaption semantics) |
| 11:30 | Philip` | hadn't seen the 'open' pragma before, and usually does "binmode STDIN, ':utf8'" etc instead |
| 11:32 | Ms2ger | suggests python |
| 11:32 | <Philip`> | hsivonen: ...or "perl -CSD -pi -e 's/foo/bar/'" |
| 11:33 | <Philip`> | (TIMTOWTDI) |
| 11:33 | <jgraham> | Does perl mainly accept famous mathematical constats as command line arguments? |
| 11:36 | <Philip`> | -pi isn't actually an argument, it's two single-character arguments that can be conveniently smushed together, except it can't be smushed with the -e since the -i consumes the remainder of its token as the extension to use when saving a backup of the files it's modifying, so you can't write "-pie" |
| 11:36 | <Philip`> | if I remember correctly |
| 11:37 | <Philip`> | (A lot like sed, because that's one of the many things Perl copied from) |
| 11:48 | <hsivonen> | Philip`: hooray. Thank you. |
| 12:01 | <jgraham> | hsivonen: Any idea if it is intentional that gecko allows you to edit a script's code from beforescriptexecute? |
| 12:02 | <hsivonen> | jgraham: probably not intentional per se, but probably there's also no intent to prevent it |
| 12:03 | <jgraham> | OK, seems like the spec tries to prevent it and I'm wondering if I should file a bug |
| 12:06 | <jgraham> | I can't really think of a use case for changing the spec other than it seems like it could be simpler to implement and browser-js style site patching, which isn't relevant to the web use case |
| 12:08 | <jgraham> | Hixie: Is there a reason the spec is the way it is? |
| 12:08 | <hsivonen> | jgraham: what's the use case for the spec trying to prevent it? |
| 12:11 | <jgraham> | hsivonen: Dunno, that's why I'm asking Hixie |
| 12:22 | <hsivonen> | I wonder if the creator of this image meant the connotations of the meme: http://a11ymemes.tumblr.com/post/23033757039/a-crying-woman-with-her-hand-over-her-face-says |
| 12:23 | <hsivonen> | It's interesting how a11y memes often don't use the idiomatic meme names |
| 12:23 | <Ms2ger`> | Is that First World Problems? |
| 12:23 | <hsivonen> | e.g. http://a11ymemes.tumblr.com/post/23037268835/philosophical-dinosour-says-if-html5-has doesn't say philociraptor |
| 12:23 | <hsivonen> | Ms2ger`: yes |
| 12:24 | <hsivonen> | and http://a11ymemes.tumblr.com/post/23104907769/action-man-so-i-built-this-bad-ass-website-and says "Action man" instead of "The Rock driving" |
| 12:24 | <hsivonen> | also Scumbag Steve is often called "lazy douchebag" on a11ymemes |
| 12:25 | <hsivonen> | and there's one without a proper text alternative: http://a11ymemes.tumblr.com/post/23091091673/bitch-pleeease |
| 12:26 | <jgraham> | The nice thing about the text alternative on the a11y memes is that it makes them easier to follow for people not so well versed in the reddit culture (i.e. me) |
| 12:27 | <jgraham> | Just as well they're not hidden away in some hard-to-access invisible attribute, really |
| 12:28 | <jgraham> | (although it doesn't help much if the text alternative is missing the same context that I am missing) |
| 12:29 | Philip` | thought part of the appeal of memes was their obscurity to outsiders |
| 12:29 | <Philip`> | so highly visible text alternatives defeat the point |
| 12:29 | <jgraham> | Appeal to whom? |
| 12:29 | <Philip`> | To the people who use them and want to feel clever and superior |
| 12:30 | <Stevef> | hsivoenen: It's interesting how a11y memes often don't use the idiomatic meme names - they are used when known, like i didn't know that philosoiraptor was called that |
| 12:30 | <jgraham> | Kind of a weird way to feel clever and superior. "I put some text on a picture of a cat" |
| 12:30 | <Philip`> | When memes appear on daytime TV programmes, they're no longer cool |
| 12:31 | <hsivonen> | Philip`: I thought they were about humor and not about superior feelings |
| 12:31 | <Stevef> | hsivonen: feel free to comment on memes you think do not have correct text alternatives |
| 12:31 | <jgraham> | It seems like the more-traditional method of quoting the entirity of uylesses from heart would be a better way to make yourself feel smug |
| 12:31 | <jgraham> | *ulysses |
| 12:32 | <jgraham> | Dammit, I am so inferior I can't even spell the title |
| 12:33 | <hsivonen> | Stevef: I'm not saying they aren't correct. I just think it's interesting how they tend to be more descriptive than idiomatic. |
| 12:34 | <Stevef> | hsivonen:note many of the memes are created by someone for whom english is a second language |
| 12:35 | <webben> | Stevef: I see, yes. |
| 12:36 | <Stevef> | webben: we have a way to go before whats implemented actually works as it should |
| 12:39 | <Philip`> | Maybe I'm confusing different types of memes - there are some that are popular because they're inherently entertaining, and others that are popular in niche communities despite having no inherent value since the context within that community makes them entertaining, and so people will find them entertaining and propagate them in order to be part of that community |
| 12:40 | <webben> | Stevef: @src without alt is sufficient to determine there is no text alternative. It seems like moving the filename to the <figcaption> is just shifting the inaccessibility around. |
| 12:40 | <webben> | A badly labelled group is not much better than a badly labelled image. |
| 12:40 | <webben> | especially when UAs may use the group label to caption the image. |
| 12:42 | <webben> | Stevef: I suppose figcaption allows image hosts to strip some of the gubbins out of the @src, but I'm not sure they can do that much more intelligently than client software. |
| 12:42 | <Philip`> | (e.g. that Rick Astley video doesn't seem particularly entertaining by itself - its only value is to show you're part of a community that understands the wider context of tricking people into watching it) |
| 12:42 | <Philip`> | (and it loses that value once pretty much everyone in the world understands it) |
| 12:43 | <webben> | Stevef: cf. http://www.nvda-project.org/ticket/51 and http://www.nvda-project.org/ticket/1989 |
| 12:43 | <jgraham> | I think I would like to spread the meme that the co-opting of the word "meme" to mean "internet in-joke" is uncool |
| 12:43 | <Philip`> | (whereas photos of cats are always enjoyable) |
| 12:44 | <Stevef> | webben: true except that one at least rpovides and indication that it is something other than a text alternative and provides a method to identify an image, where as now if images don't have an alt they generally are ignored (unless inside a link) the figure/figcaption provides a method to say hey there is an image here, it has a caption of some sort but no text alternative |
| 12:44 | <hsivonen> | btw, will 3rd-party AT be locked out of Metro? |
| 12:44 | <webben> | Stevef: But it's not a meaningful caption : it's basically the same repair text. |
| 12:45 | <webben> | Stevef: @src is not a text alternative therefore that _is_ an indication that @src is not a text alternative. |
| 12:46 | <webben> | Stevef: How client software surfaces the fact that it is repairing the absence of a text alternative is a different matter. |
| 12:51 | <webben> | Stevef: I agree there's a problem with distinguishing significant and insignificant images without text alternatives, although I also think one could apply more intelligent heuristics than tend to be applied. |
| 12:52 | <webben> | e.g. images below a certain rendered size are not significant (ad/tracking pixels) |
| 12:55 | <Stevef> | webben: looking at flickr they provide a caption for all images http://www.flickr.com/photos/ which is usually better than the src value and in other cases there is no disernible source http://www.flickr.com/photos/pitschspics/7221150834/ so the figure/caption technique would be useful |
| 12:58 | <Stevef> | webben or in these cases: http://www.flickr.com/photos/pitschspics/with/7221143506/ the caption while not that useful is a whole lot more useful than the src e.g. 7221058684_abb86bb0d8_m.jpg also note the alt and the caption are the same |
| 13:00 | <webben> | Stevef: I agree that where the original filename is changed to some gibberish in a CDN URL as there, preserving the original filename in some sort of association with the <img> is better than nothing. |
| 13:02 | <Stevef> | webben: what I am trying to say is in practice when looking at how uploaded images on photo istes are captioned, using the figure/figcaption makes sense (to me) |
| 13:09 | <Stevef> | webben: plus i like the figure/figcaption becuase it provides users with an easier way to provide some meaningful text thats programmatically associated with an image, it may not be the best text alternative, but its something and it can be conveyed that is NOT an alt text whereas if you use alt or title the AT does not know the difference (unless it goes in a qureries the DOM directly) as... |
| 13:09 | <Stevef> | ...they both populate the accname. |
| 13:18 | <annevk> | didn't know AT treats alt and title the same |
| 13:18 | <annevk> | that's pretty bad :( |
| 13:21 | <Stevef> | annevk: its not AT as such its how the accessible name calculation works in all browsers (that support it) |
| 13:22 | <Stevef> | annevk:mac works a little differently for images |
| 13:23 | <Stevef> | annevk: essentially if there is no other source for an accessble name then browsers use the title, if alt is present as well as an a title alt is used for the name and title is used for the description |
| 13:24 | <webben> | hsivonen: I think no. http://www.nvda-project.org/ticket/1801 |
| 13:35 | <annevk> | Stevef: mkay |
| 13:42 | <bjankord> | ... |
| 13:53 | <annevk> | hober: first rule about #secret-treehouse is that we don't talk about, definitely not on twitter :p |
| 13:58 | <jgraham> | I thought the first rule of #secret-treehouse was "No smoking"? |
| 13:59 | <annevk> | hahaha |
| 14:12 | <scott_gonzalez> | Is there anything in DOM Events that says whether mouseenter should or should not be triggered as soon as the page loads? |
| 14:14 | <scott_gonzalez> | If you don't move your mouse at all, then load a page, should you get an event for the element that loads into the position that your mouse is in? |
| 14:14 | <scott_gonzalez> | Firefox seems to be the only browser that does this. |
| 14:14 | <scott_gonzalez> | It happens if content is shown after page load as well. |
| 14:17 | <annevk> | mouse events actually be defined? hah |
| 14:17 | <annevk> | "you must be new here" (but I know you're not quite...) |
| 14:17 | <annevk> | being* |
| 14:19 | <scott_gonzalez> | :-/ |
| 14:22 | <annevk> | it's not even tied to things like hit testing |
| 14:22 | <annevk> | wait what am I saying |
| 14:22 | <annevk> | hit testing is not even defined |
| 14:26 | <smaug____> | foolip: the bugs you've been filing are hilarious. |
| 14:26 | smaug____ | can't file audio api bugs, because tracker is locked to wg members only |
| 14:26 | <foolip> | smaug____, glad to be of service! |
| 14:26 | <annevk> | pointers? |
| 14:26 | <foolip> | smaug____, I can file stuff on your behalf if you want |
| 14:26 | <foolip> | but send me an email, right now we're busy filing bugs :) |
| 14:27 | <annevk> | you should file a tracker issue on using W3C Bugzilla |
| 14:27 | <smaug____> | annevk: http://www.w3.org/2011/audio/track/issues/raised |
| 14:27 | <foolip> | annevk, we did suggest using bugzilla, but the chair though issues were fine |
| 14:27 | <foolip> | and we just want to get the issues out into the open to begin with |
| 14:29 | <annevk> | that's a lot of issues |
| 14:29 | <annevk> | Bugzilla is nice because it works across specs |
| 14:33 | <smaug____> | annevk: the number of issues tells a lot about the spec. I feel it is hard to even start reviewing it properly, since nothing is really defined |
| 14:33 | <smaug____> | it is more like a simple API description |
| 14:35 | <smaug____> | after reading that spec, all the other specs feel a lot better though :) Perhaps I'll complain less about them in the future. |
| 14:36 | <jgraham> | So what are the rules about whoch Element-targeted events get corresponding onfoo attributes? |
| 14:37 | <smaug____> | no rules |
| 14:37 | <jgraham> | It's just according to Hixie's whim? |
| 14:38 | <smaug____> | or someone else |
| 14:38 | <jgraham> | Why are there not rules? |
| 14:38 | <jgraham> | I need structure dammit |
| 14:38 | <smaug____> | see the topic |
| 14:39 | <jgraham> | We should have a formal process with proposals and votes |
| 14:39 | <jgraham> | Then this sort of thing will never happen |
| 14:39 | <annevk> | smaug____: nah please keep complaining |
| 14:39 | <annevk> | smaug____: better to know |
| 14:40 | <annevk> | jgraham: I'm sure you can get the W3C to set up a workshop around this topic |
| 14:40 | <annevk> | jgraham: bring in some academics, some people writing software, couple of users, some developers |
| 14:40 | <jgraham> | I could have a community group |
| 14:41 | <jgraham> | The event handler content attribute user's group |
| 14:41 | <annevk> | jgraham: they'd prolly recommend that now yeah :) |
| 14:41 | <annevk> | jgraham: best to just announce it on twitter |
| 14:41 | <scott_gonzalez> | jgraham: It would be nice if all events has corresponding onfoo attributes. |
| 14:41 | <jgraham> | It would be like a rehabilitation centre |
| 14:41 | <annevk> | scott_gonzalez: except for the events we want to drop |
| 14:42 | <annevk> | the other problem is that events are case-sensitive |
| 14:42 | <annevk> | event handlers are not |
| 14:42 | <scott_gonzalez> | annevk: If there are events that don't have corresponding attributes and the events are being dropped, then I think it's fine if they're not added |
| 14:42 | <annevk> | I think all events with casing have no event handler attribute |
| 14:42 | <annevk> | most of those are also candidate for being dropped, though not all |
| 14:43 | <scott_gonzalez> | They should just be lowercased. |
| 14:43 | <scott_gonzalez> | We shouldn't have events with same name but differnet casing. |
| 14:43 | <scott_gonzalez> | We actually do this in jQuery UI. |
| 14:43 | <smaug____> | DOMContentLoaded is perhaps the only one which shouldn't be dropped |
| 14:43 | <annevk> | smaug____: yeah |
| 14:43 | <annevk> | smaug____: and you can't really change casing I think |
| 14:43 | <scott_gonzalez> | We provide callbacks with mixed casing, but trigger associated events lowercased. |
| 14:43 | <annevk> | smaug____: because people check event.type |
| 14:43 | <smaug____> | yeah |
| 14:44 | <annevk> | but you could have ondomcontentloaded I guess |
| 14:44 | <annevk> | ugly as hell |
| 14:44 | <smaug____> | I wouldn't add a special case |
| 14:44 | <smaug____> | we could just add a new event |
| 14:44 | <smaug____> | contentloaded |
| 14:44 | <smaug____> | it would fire right after DOMContentLoaded |
| 14:45 | <smaug____> | then deprecate DOMContentLoaded |
| 14:45 | <smaug____> | whatever deprecation means |
| 14:45 | <annevk> | oh god |
| 14:46 | <smaug____> | though, this wouldn't still let all the events to have onfoo handler |
| 14:46 | <smaug____> | scripts and addons can always dispatch any kinds of events |
| 14:47 | <annevk> | yeah, we should have the ele.on() concept instead |
| 14:47 | <smaug____> | there are still problems with that approach |
| 14:47 | <annevk> | yeah, for one the details are not yet defined :) |
| 14:48 | <scott_gonzalez> | The attributes are useful for testing if the UA supports the event, I don't see how .on() is related. |
| 14:48 | <annevk> | scott_gonzalez: oh solely from that perspective |
| 14:49 | <annevk> | an event being supported is such a weird concept |
| 14:49 | <bjankord> | Does anyone know if the w and h values in srcset are similar to min-width or max-width media queries? |
| 14:49 | <annevk> | bjankord: max-width I think |
| 14:49 | <bjankord> | hmm |
| 14:50 | <bjankord> | I think there is a good case where users would want it to be min-width |
| 14:50 | <bjankord> | Thinking of progressive enhancement/mobile first |
| 14:50 | <bjankord> | Should authors be able to 100minw or 100maxw in srcset? |
| 14:52 | <annevk> | bjankord: there's some mailing list discussion around that |
| 14:52 | <scott_gonzalez> | Heh, "some" |
| 14:53 | <bjankord> | annevk: Has there been any agreement on this topic on the mailing list? |
| 14:54 | <bjankord> | annevk: any link to view the list? |
| 14:54 | <scott_gonzalez> | http://lists.whatwg.org/htdig.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org/2012-May/thread.html |
| 14:54 | <scott_gonzalez> | There are about a dozen different threads. |
| 14:55 | <scott_gonzalez> | Search that page for <picture>, srcset, media queries. |
| 14:55 | <bjankord> | scott_gonzalez: haha yeah I assumed there would be a lot to dig through, thanks for pointing me in the right direction |
| 14:56 | <scott_gonzalez> | Most of the debate right now seems to be around whether there are other useful media queries for images. |
| 14:56 | <scott_gonzalez> | And how to handle choosing an image based on bandwidth. |
| 14:57 | <annevk> | http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-whatwg-archive/ might be nicer to browse through |
| 14:57 | <bjankord> | bandwidth is such a changing variable |
| 14:57 | <bjankord> | what might be considered fast for you might be slow for me |
| 14:57 | <bjankord> | I would say the best would be to allow the user to choose their images, regular vs hd |
| 14:57 | <bjankord> | just like the user can choose there default font size |
| 14:58 | <bjankord> | there would be a browser setting the user would click to choose which type of images to display |
| 14:58 | <annevk> | users don't want to do that |
| 14:59 | <annevk> | as much as possible it should just work |
| 14:59 | <jgraham> | annevk: They also don't want the site to suddenly look like crap due to bad heuristics |
| 14:59 | <jgraham> | The whole bandwidth thing is just a bad idea |
| 14:59 | <bjankord> | jgraham: agreed |
| 14:59 | <annevk> | jgraham: I was not suggesting it wasn't... |
| 14:59 | <jgraham> | annevk: Sure |
| 15:00 | <jgraham> | I'm probably preaching to the choir |
| 15:00 | <jgraham> | Hmm, so is it defined anywhere how scripting in SVG works? |
| 15:01 | <annevk> | there is http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/dap/raw-file/tip/network-api/index.html |
| 15:02 | <annevk> | but I'm not sure why that is there... |
| 15:02 | <annevk> | oh, some B2G thing |
| 15:03 | <annevk> | and a whole new object for it? |
| 15:03 | <annevk> | oh well |
| 15:03 | <jgraham> | Yeah, this is the problem with fragmentation. Everyone wants their own little bit of namespace to play in |
| 15:04 | <jgraham> | That API looks horrible |
| 15:08 | <smaug____> | blame volkmar |
| 15:10 | <annevk> | so sad that volkmar could not finish HTML forms instead |
| 15:13 | <Ms2ger`> | I hear there's an intern who's going to work on forms over the summer |
| 15:13 | <gsnedders> | interns++ |
| 15:13 | <Ms2ger`> | But apparently only for mobile :/ |
| 15:13 | <Ms2ger`> | gsnedders, looking for an internship? :) |
| 15:13 | <gsnedders> | Ms2ger`: Nah. |
| 15:14 | <annevk> | Ms2ger`: there have been unsuccessful WF2 internships in the past if I remember correctly |
| 15:15 | <Ms2ger`> | Wouldn't surprise me |
| 15:16 | <smaug____> | forms are hard |
| 15:16 | <smaug____> | certain types at least |
| 15:16 | <Ms2ger`> | Opera did them first, so what's the point? :) |
| 15:17 | <smaug____> | :p |
| 15:46 | <dglazkov> | good morning, Whatwg! |
| 15:51 | <jreading> | hey all, question… |
| 15:53 | <annevk> | Ms2ger`: we even had type=uri before I got it changed all over to type=url |
| 15:53 | <jreading> | our designers don't want to go near html5 input validation, because they are adverse to bubble tooltips. I know you can style them, but is there a roadmap for that, in terms or extending the api to allow custom DOM insertion? |
| 15:53 | <annevk> | you can use setCustomValidity() |
| 15:54 | <annevk> | jreading: might be to start a thread on that though or a wiki page on Forms listing the shortcomings of what we have today |
| 15:55 | <annevk> | jreading: though for the 8 or so years we've been doing this nobody has wanted to take a hard look at styling forms :( |
| 15:55 | <annevk> | it's a rather hard problem |
| 15:56 | <Stevef> | a shortcoming of the validation message bubbles as implemented is that if you have more than one invalid fiield only the first bubble shows |
| 15:57 | <jreading> | annevk: i'm not so concerned with the native styling, but just being able to change the placement and affect behavior |
| 15:58 | <annevk> | Stevef: sounds like a UI bug, yeah |
| 15:58 | <annevk> | jreading: that does sound like changing the native styling... |
| 15:59 | <Stevef> | annevk: from what i can remember when testing its same behaviour across browsers |
| 15:59 | <jreading> | i suppose so, but I'm not asking for anyone to do that legwork, just need hooks for all that stuff |
| 16:00 | <annevk> | Stevef: just like type=file evolves over time so can this; UI is not standardized |
| 16:00 | <annevk> | jreading: I know, defining the hooks is the problem I'm referring to |
| 16:00 | <jreading> | right, ok |
| 16:01 | <Stevef> | yannevk: understand but it limits its practical use currently |
| 16:02 | <jreading> | just like one can do <form novalidate> it would great to do <form message="inline | bubble | group"> |
| 16:02 | <jreading> | or something |
| 16:02 | <annevk> | Stevef: I guess that would be good feedback for that wiki page I was suggesting |
| 16:02 | <TabAtkins> | Ms2ger`: Uh, no. Bugzilla is perfectly fine for random people to file bugs in on CSS drafts. We just don't want *conversation* happening on them - if you file a non-trivial bug, you should also start a thread. |
| 16:02 | <Stevef> | annevk:ok |
| 16:03 | <annevk> | Stevef: although not every browser has every aspect yet, we should probably evaluate again what we have so far and what works and what doesn't |
| 16:05 | <annevk> | jreading: it would be better to have use cases or statements of what does not work and why then some syntax that can mean pretty much anything ;) |
| 16:05 | <annevk> | I'll create a wiki page |
| 16:10 | <annevk> | Stevef: jreading: http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Forms |
| 16:11 | <Stevef> | annevk:cool will provide some detail later |
| 16:13 | <jreading> | annevk: excellent |
| 16:15 | <jreading> | if you can get me an account, I will diligently and conservatively add to this |
| 16:17 | <annevk> | jreading: email? |
| 16:18 | <jreading> | annevk: sent to hixe, that ok? |
| 16:18 | <annevk> | jreading: then you'll have to wait until he gets online |
| 16:18 | <annevk> | if you pm me with it I can do it now |
| 16:19 | <annevk> | (well if you're quick, I have to go) |
| 18:17 | <Ms2ger`> | Huh |
| 18:18 | <Ms2ger`> | 2 and a half hours after being sent, http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html/2012May/0001.html got two replies with the same suggestion, within a minute of each other |
| 18:40 | <eberon_> | /join #reddit-dev |
| 18:40 | <eberon_> | bleh |
| 18:49 | <jreading> | http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Forms |
| 18:50 | <annevk> | jreading: cool |
| 18:50 | <annevk> | jreading: fyi, use cases and requirements are separate things ;) |
| 18:51 | <annevk> | jreading: a use case is a scenario of something you want to accomplish; one or more requirements typically follow from that |
| 18:51 | <jreading> | edited |
| 18:53 | <annevk> | anyway, that's pretty awesome |
| 19:01 | <annevk> | Hixie: you around/ |
| 19:02 | <annevk> | Hixie: it would help if you fixed the errors around minimum/maximum in the spec |
| 19:02 | <annevk> | Hixie: srcset spec that is |
| 19:05 | tantek | reads the wiki page |
| 19:05 | <tantek> | jreading, this is good work http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Forms |
| 19:06 | <tantek> | there's still a lot we have to do to make the "webforms2" features work well in practice - very happy to see someone gathering specific real world examples where the current functionality in HTML is insufficient to achieve the desired effect. |
| 19:07 | <tantek> | I have a few thoughts on more UI elements as well for growing from forms to full on apps. But forms is a good place to focus first. |
| 19:08 | <annevk> | forms are hard :( |
| 19:09 | <annevk> | we should really have sortable tables by now in markup imo |
| 19:09 | <annevk> | but we don't :) |
| 19:10 | <anatolbroder> | I don’t understand your real life examples from http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Hgroup_element#The_Telegraph_.28UK.29 The Telegraph doesn’t use the hgroup element. So why did you place it in the article? |
| 19:11 | <annevk> | "This page documents use cases and existing usage patterns related to marking up subtitles and taglines within headers." |
| 19:12 | <anatolbroder> | annevk: thanks. |
| 19:15 | <anatolbroder> | What is *your* proposed solution for a classic 2-4 sentences long byline between the <h1> element and the text body? A <h2 class="byline"> or a <p class="byline">? |
| 19:18 | <TabAtkins> | the latter |
| 19:18 | <anatolbroder> | TabAtkins: thanks |
| 19:18 | <jgraham> | One problem with forms is that peole aren't really interested in implementing forms features |
| 19:20 | <annevk> | I think if forms/editing/UI events were way better defined it would be less problematic |
| 19:20 | <annevk> | because then at least it would make hacking easier |
| 19:20 | <annevk> | now you're just asking for regressions, in a way |
| 19:21 | <annevk> | "forms are hard, lets go shopping" |
| 19:21 | <jgraham> | Yeah maybe |
| 19:21 | <jgraham> | But also UI is hard |
| 19:22 | <jgraham> | Would be kind of nice for Gecko to imeplement more of the forms already in HTML :| |
| 19:23 | <annevk> | no but you see, Gecko's going to have the best implementation possible, so they're simply not doing it... |
| 19:25 | <jgraham> | Well the main problem seems to be that they don't think it's needed for B2G |
| 19:26 | <jgraham> | Dunno how they plan to get form controls on there. Maybe the who UI will be built with jQuery |
| 19:26 | <Ms2ger`> | jgraham, oh, no, we've got someone who will implement them just for mobile |
| 19:28 | <annevk> | jreading: heh just reading your past tweets |
| 19:28 | <annevk> | jreading: no goat farm? |
| 19:30 | <jreading> | not yet |
| 19:30 | <annevk> | put me down for some cheese if you do |
| 19:31 | <jreading> | my facebook shares didn't hit $1000 yet |
| 19:35 | <jgraham> | Oooh cheese |
| 19:36 | <jgraham> | I would prefer to keep pigs I think |
| 19:36 | <jgraham> | Although goat meat is also delicious |
| 19:36 | <jgraham> | I recommend the Jamacian recipe "Curried Goat" |
| 19:36 | <jreading> | how could you eat this? |
| 19:36 | <jreading> | http://goteaminternet.com/img/docs/57570.jpg |
| 19:37 | <jgraham> | Well first you would let it grow up a bit |
| 19:37 | <jgraham> | Then you would kill it |
| 19:38 | <jgraham> | Then you would butcher it |
| 19:38 | <gavinc> | Facebook, or the goat? |
| 19:38 | <jgraham> | Then you would cook it |
| 19:38 | <jgraham> | Then you would eat it |
| 19:38 | <jgraham> | Nah, facebook will eat itself |
| 19:39 | <gavinc> | Ugh, my new millionare friends are going to be insufferable for weeks |
| 19:39 | <othermaciej> | are you friends with facebookers? |
| 19:40 | <jgraham> | That's so far beyond a first world problem, I don't know how to classify it |
| 19:40 | <gavinc> | yeah, a couple |
| 19:46 | <Ms2ger`> | I'm glad they went public... Now all the Mozillians who sold their souls to facebook can come back |
| 19:47 | <annevk> | Ms2ger`: probably not if they want to cash in on options |
| 19:55 | <gavinc> | annevk: indeed, golden handcuffs better than the normal kind but still kinda suck |
| 19:56 | <gavinc> | gavin: palo alto world problem? |
| 19:56 | <gavinc> | jgraham: palo alto world problem? |
| 20:03 | <gavin> | schrep hired me at Mozilla |
| 20:03 | <gavin> | I should get back in touch now that he's a bazillionaire |
| 20:13 | <annevk> | pablof: I want to retweet, but lack of proper punctuation puts me off |
| 20:14 | <zewt> | twitter is designed to destroy grammar |
| 20:14 | <zewt> | it's pretty absurd that they havn't raised it to something sane, ~500 characters or so |
| 20:14 | <pablof> | annevk: yeah, i know, i should set a timer before pushing the tweet button |
| 20:15 | <zewt> | twitter is pretty much completely different in different languages, depending on the character density, heh |
| 20:15 | <zewt> | way less of a restriction in cjk than western languages |
| 20:16 | <pablof> | well, yeah, but that's like saying that shorthand is very efficient |
| 20:16 | <pablof> | it is, but man, you have to memorize too many symbols! |
| 20:16 | <pablof> | s/too/so/ |
| 20:17 | <zewt> | basically twitter's limit is just too low for decent communication in english, you always end up having to remove content |
| 20:23 | <TabAtkins> | zewt: Maybe learn to communicate better? Otherwise, use tweeplus.com, which is the only longtweet service where your tweets will actually survive the service dying. |
| 20:24 | <zewt> | uh, having more to say than can be expressed in 2.5 bytes of english is not a lack of communication skill |
| 20:24 | <zewt> | it's just a failure of a medium |
| 20:25 | <TabAtkins> | 2.5 bytes of english? Where'd you get that number? |
| 20:27 | <zewt> | that sure is what twitter feels like |
| 20:27 | <zewt> | oh you used an adverb, that's too much for us |
| 20:27 | <TabAtkins> | I very rarely have trouble communicating in Twitter. |
| 20:28 | <zewt> | i have to spend more time trying to find ways to say what I want to say within the absurd length restrictions than saying it in the first place |
| 20:30 | <TabAtkins> | Shrug. Sounds like you're just bad at Twitter. It's a restricted medium on purpose. |
| 20:32 | <zewt> | there is no valid reason for a length limitation that allows English speakers to say 1/2 or 1/3 as much as what a Japanese user can say |
| 20:34 | <bjankord> | I've been reading through the mailing list now for a few hours and havn't seen anything about using minw or maxw in srcset |
| 20:34 | <bjankord> | Has there been any talk about allowing authors the ability to choose if the w value in src set means min-width or max-width |
| 20:38 | <bjankord> | ... |
| 20:39 | <TabAtkins> | bjankord: You haven't seen the talk about changing the syntax to "max-width:NNNpx" instead of "NNNw"? |
| 20:39 | <bjankord> | Not yet, I've been reading through the mailing list |
| 20:39 | <bjankord> | TabAtkins: can you link me there |
| 20:40 | <TabAtkins> | Yeah, gimma a sec. |
| 20:41 | <bjankord> | TabAtkins: Thanks! |
| 20:41 | <TabAtkins> | For example, check uot the "Problems with width/height descriptors in scrset" thread. |
| 20:41 | <TabAtkins> | Which is specifically about that issue. |
| 20:55 | <annevk> | guess I should keep track of when Gecko forgets to raise spec issues to entertain @bz_moz |
| 20:56 | <annevk> | oh but I guess since everyone is a Mozillian me raising the issue still counts |
| 20:57 | <TabAtkins> | Heh. |
| 20:58 | <Ms2ger`> | annevk, shouldn't be too hard... Just look at canvas bugs :) |
| 21:02 | <bjankord> | TabAtkins: So after reading through the mailing list, it's my understanding the srcset spec will likely be updated to use min-width: and max-width: ? |
| 21:06 | <jgraham> | annevk: I am quite in favour of a "name and shame" policy when people implement features but don't make any sharable tests for them |
| 21:07 | <jgraham> | And yes, Opera could do this better |
| 21:07 | <charlvn> | lol @ http://i.imgur.com/d2e5k.png |
| 21:07 | <jgraham> | (but we are actively tring to) |
| 21:08 | <annevk> | /TR/ash and 5hit... |
| 21:09 | <Ms2ger`> | jgraham, you mean, everyone :) |
| 21:10 | <annevk> | runeh would suggest a Tumblr |
| 21:10 | <TabAtkins> | bjankord: It's not decided. We've provided feedback, and we can argue it, but it ultimately falls on Hixie. |
| 21:10 | <Ms2ger`> | s/Hixie/browser vendors/, as he would say himself |
| 21:11 | <TabAtkins> | Of course. |
| 21:11 | <Philip`> | s/browser vendors/users who choose which browser to use/, surely |
| 21:11 | <jgraham> | Ms2ger`: Yeah, lots of shame to go around at the moment |
| 21:12 | <Ms2ger`> | So, I've got some tests I want to submit |
| 21:13 | <Ms2ger`> | Do we have a w3c-test.org subdomain? |
| 21:13 | <jgraham> | Yeah |
| 21:13 | <jgraham> | I don't remember what works though |
| 21:13 | <Ms2ger`> | Different ports? |
| 21:14 | <Ms2ger`> | http/https should work... |
| 21:14 | <jgraham> | I think so. If not we obviously need them :) |
| 21:14 | <jgraham> | I'm pretty sure we set up a few subdomains and a few ports |
| 21:14 | <annevk> | Ms2ger`: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-testsuite/2011Feb/0022.html |
| 21:15 | <jgraham> | ah, annevk is more full of useful information |
| 21:15 | <Ms2ger`> | Great |
| 21:16 | <annevk> | Ms2ger`: more complete: http://www.w3.org/wiki/Testing/Requirements#The_Web_test_server_must_be_available_through_different_domain_names |
| 21:16 | <annevk> | including different ports |
| 21:16 | <Ms2ger`> | Nice |
| 21:16 | <annevk> | and a fancy looking subdomain http://天気の良い日.w3c-test.org/ |
| 21:17 | <Ms2ger`> | I need to set those up for Mozilla too |
| 21:17 | <annevk> | also one that looks French http://élève.w3c-test.org/ |
| 21:21 | Ms2ger` | files that |
| 22:05 | <eddiemonge> | why microdata vs microformats? |
| 22:05 | <tantek> | eddiemonge - do you have a specific problem you're trying to solve? |
| 22:05 | <tantek> | that helps with figuring out what solution would work best for you |
| 22:08 | <tantek> | eddiemonge - if you have specific questions about microformats, feel free to join and ask in the #microformats channel as well. |
| 22:08 | <tantek> | much more focused community there on that sort of thing |
| 22:09 | <tantek> | and for discussing vocabularies/schema more broadly, there's the #schema channel - I hang out there as well - as do others who work on vocabularies and things like microformats/microdata/RDFa |
| 22:21 | <eddiemonge> | thanks for the suggestions |
| 23:09 | <TabAtkins> | Hm. I know how to implement compositing, and I know how to implement blending. I'm not sure how to implement them together. :/ |
| 23:10 | <hober> | very carefully :) |
| 23:10 | <TabAtkins> | I'm trying to put together a demo in canvas, though! |
| 23:15 | <gavinc> | eddiemonge: also #swig more RDFa and semweb, less microdata |
| 23:18 | <TabAtkins> | Okay, I think I've deciphered the Compositing spec. It doesn't help that they literally use three different variables for the same thing in nearly-adjacent formulas. |
| 23:27 | <heycam> | jgraham, re scripting in SVG there's no wording hooking into anything HTML defines yet, but I hope to add some at some point soon |
