| 01:02 | <gsnedders> | Hmm, is there any good way to mark up verse with using caesura and represent it (using CSS) as a long space? |
| 01:04 | <gsnedders> | *caesurae if I actually decline correctly |
| 01:10 | <gsnedders> | Most existing things seem to use , which isn't great. |
| 01:14 | <gsnedders> | (esp if you want to line up the half-lines, assuming that's how the caesura is used)) |
| 02:00 | <Hixie> | volkmar: awesome, thanks. interesting that you are not looking at doing script-related inputmode control; is that not needed? |
| 02:02 | <Hixie> | pablof: they seem right, am i missing something? |
| 02:06 | <Hixie> | gsnedders: <span class="caesura">𝄓</span> and hide the content with CSS? :-) |
| 02:06 | <Hixie> | but that's more a musical caesura |
| 02:13 | <gavinc> | Wrong place to ask, but does anyone know the best way to contact someone at the W3C about membership issue? (Email to membership unanswered for a while) |
| 02:50 | <Hixie> | gavinc: your AC rep, if you have one |
| 02:50 | <Hixie> | gavinc: failing that, try ij@ maybe? |
| 03:17 | <gavinc> | Hixie: Yeah, am the AC rep ;) trying to figure out why our membership didn't start on the first |
| 03:18 | <Hixie> | ah :-) |
| 03:18 | <Hixie> | try ian jacobs (ij@) |
| 03:18 | <Hixie> | when MikeSmith is around he can help too, probably by telling you to contact ij@ :-) |
| 03:19 | <MikeSmith> | gavinc: what Hixie said :) |
| 03:19 | <MikeSmith> | gavinc: I can check the DB at least |
| 03:37 | <MikeSmith> | Hixie: the script is done right? |
| 03:37 | <Hixie> | yup |
| 03:37 | <MikeSmith> | k |
| 03:37 | <Hixie> | there remains the issues i sent the chairs in the e-mail earlier (you were cc'ed) |
| 03:37 | <Hixie> | but i don't plan on doing anything on those unless they ask me to |
| 03:38 | <MikeSmith> | OK |
| 03:39 | <MikeSmith> | Hixie: you don't want any list Cc'ed on that component? |
| 04:09 | <Hixie> | not particularly |
| 04:20 | <volkmar> | Hixie: script-related input mode control? |
| 04:20 | <Hixie> | like, chinese simple vs traditional |
| 07:45 | <hsivonen> | so much "wrong tomorrow" with smart card Web logins |
| 07:46 | <hsivonen> | printed pad of passcodes each of which is used once will always be more compatible than any hardware-based solution |
| 07:46 | <hsivonen> | but even as far as hardware goes, USB connectors are more common now than smartcard slots |
| 08:27 | <annevk> | Is there a way to combine inputmode and autocompletetype somehow? |
| 08:28 | <annevk> | From the autocompletetype anyway the inputmode is often implied |
| 08:39 | <MikeSmith> | annevk: so it turns out the HTTP spec does specifically disallow whitespace in media-type parameters |
| 08:39 | <MikeSmith> | though it does allow it in other parameters |
| 08:39 | <MikeSmith> | http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2616#section-3.7 |
| 08:40 | <AryehGregor> | annevk, I had a comment in that vein at some point, saying that there should be some higher-level attribute along the lines of "what type of input is expected" without specifically tying it to autocomplete or whatever. |
| 08:40 | <MikeSmith> | "Linear white space (LWS) MUST NOT be used between the type and subtype, nor between an attribute and its value." |
| 08:40 | <MikeSmith> | I see now that PhilipJ pointed this out in a list discussion last year |
| 08:40 | <annevk> | what is an attribute in that context? |
| 08:41 | <annevk> | they mean parameter? |
| 08:41 | <MikeSmith> | the first half of the parameter before the equal sign |
| 08:41 | <annevk> | ah okay |
| 08:41 | <MikeSmith> | the define the parameter as an attribute+value pair |
| 08:41 | <MikeSmith> | "Parameters MAY follow the type/subtype in the form of attribute/value pairs" |
| 08:41 | <annevk> | so charset = utf-8 would not work? |
| 08:42 | <MikeSmith> | yeah and it doesn't work actually |
| 08:42 | <MikeSmith> | in most browsers |
| 08:42 | <MikeSmith> | I think it works only in IE |
| 08:42 | <annevk> | really? |
| 08:42 | <MikeSmith> | other browsers ignore the parameter |
| 08:42 | <MikeSmith> | yeah try it |
| 08:42 | <MikeSmith> | you have to make sure you have charset-sniffing turned off in the browser |
| 08:43 | <MikeSmith> | and make sure it's not set to default to UTF-8 |
| 08:43 | <MikeSmith> | Julian has a test case |
| 08:43 | <MikeSmith> | lemme get the URL |
| 08:43 | <MikeSmith> | http://greenbytes.de/tech/tc/httpcontenttype/textplainutf8ws.asis |
| 08:43 | <MikeSmith> | summary of results for various browsers is at http://greenbytes.de/tech/tc/httpcontenttype/#textplainutf8ws |
| 08:44 | <MikeSmith> | though when I try it in Chrome it does seem to use UTF-8 no matter what |
| 08:45 | <MikeSmith> | I can't tell whether it's getting it from the header or not |
| 08:45 | <MikeSmith> | but Opera and Firefox both ignore it at least |
| 08:47 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen: do you think it's worth updating the charset part of the ContentTypeParser code to make it proper error-reporting parser instead of that existing regexp-based one? |
| 08:47 | <MikeSmith> | if so I think I'll go ahead and do that |
| 08:49 | <MikeSmith> | it seems good to alert a user with a useful error message for the "text/html; charset = utf-8" case if that's not going to actually work as expected in browsers |
| 08:56 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: yeah, that would be nice |
| 08:56 | <MikeSmith> | ok |
| 08:57 | <hsivonen> | the JS i18n API will suck for non-top-tier locales that won't be supported in all browser from day 1 |
| 08:58 | <hsivonen> | the WHATWG-style notion of interop is rather incompatible with the politics of never closing the door on the set of supported locales |
| 08:59 | <hsivonen> | hmm. that statement wasn't quite right |
| 08:59 | <hsivonen> | the WHATWG-style notion of interop is rather incompatible with the politics of not having a normative list of which locales are in the supported set today |
| 09:01 | <hsivonen> | eventually, the standard will be "whatever ICU supports" and everyone has to ship ICU as the back end impl |
| 09:01 | <hsivonen> | except Microsoft probably won't an will roll their own |
| 09:09 | <annevk> | ICU is kind of terrible |
| 09:10 | <annevk> | at least for encodings the architecture is way too complex |
| 09:25 | <annevk> | MikeSmith: I wonder if other headers with similar parameter-style are parsed in the same way |
| 09:26 | <MikeSmith_> | annevk: I think not |
| 09:26 | <annevk> | MikeSmith: this does not sound like the way e.g. <meta http-equiv=content-type> is parsed |
| 09:26 | <MikeSmith_> | I think Content-Disposition is not, for one |
| 09:26 | <annevk> | and they call HTML a mess |
| 09:26 | <MikeSmith> | heh |
| 09:26 | <MikeSmith> | yeah |
| 10:24 | <david_carlisle> | MikeSmith: (or anyone) If I want to comment on one of these bugs that's been cloned into HTML WG and WhatWG components, am I supposed to comment on the old one, the new one or both? |
| 10:24 | <MikeSmith> | the new one |
| 10:24 | <MikeSmith> | I suggest |
| 10:25 | <Ms2ger> | Then again, we would say that in this channel |
| 10:33 | <david_carlisle> | MikeSmith: OK thanks, it might be worth posting to html and or wg lists saying what just happened, I got several mails I expect some got a lot more:-) |
| 10:34 | <MikeSmith> | yeah sorry about the bugmail bomb |
| 10:34 | <MikeSmith> | I got a lot more :-) |
| 10:34 | <david_carlisle> | MikeSmith: good:-) |
| 11:09 | <annevk> | david_carlisle: yeah, the clarifying email will come |
| 11:09 | <annevk> | david_carlisle: prolly end of this week or early next, whenever Hixie gets around to it |
| 11:10 | <annevk> | david_carlisle: basically, the HTML WG forked development on HTML |
| 11:11 | <david_carlisle> | annevk: yes but I hoped they ony _say_ they forked not actually have different bugs with different resolutions, which would be ... unfortunate |
| 11:11 | <Ms2ger> | Well |
| 11:11 | <david_carlisle> | only |
| 11:11 | <Ms2ger> | More likely they'll have a lot of bugs without resolutions instead |
| 11:12 | <david_carlisle> | Ms2ger: good plan |
| 11:25 | <hsivonen> | does the HTML WG have an editor for its fork, yet? |
| 11:26 | <hsivonen> | I wonder if someone has scientifically figured out why the WebApps WG kinda works but the HTML WG doesn't |
| 11:35 | <odinho> | Culture. |
| 11:37 | <Ms2ger> | Are you a scientist? :) |
| 11:43 | <odinho> | Òó |
| 12:03 | <annevk> | hsivonen: chairs that tolerate bullshit? |
| 12:03 | <annevk> | hsivonen: maybe also because WebApps is more difficult so you get less bullshit to start with |
| 12:04 | <annevk> | hsivonen: well, HTML is deceptively simple anyway, not actually |
| 12:09 | <hsivonen> | annevk: yeah, I'd prefer the chairs to be more like "can't behave like that here" or "nope, not gonna do that" bouncers as opposed to putting everything to a poll out of fairness |
| 12:15 | <odinho> | Ms2ger: Absolutely not ;] |
| 12:32 | <hsivonen> | it's unfortunate that the Security Considerations section of CORS doesn't cover the concern related to authentication by IP address or authentication by being on the right side of a firewall |
| 12:35 | <odinho> | That sections has been a bit back and forth IIUC. |
| 12:37 | <hsivonen> | time and again there's always someone new who doesn't realize that CORS protects network resources whose authentication relies on the network topology |
| 12:48 | <odinho> | true dat |
| 12:50 | <hsivonen> | another repeating thing: Ars writes that new release of browser Foo now implements API Bar without explicitly spelling out that care was taken in making API Bar secure. Reader in the comments freaks out assuming that the security issues related to the subject matter of API Bar haven't been addressed or thought about. |
| 13:01 | <hsivonen> | I wonder if hober is on track to become the new HTML WG editor considering all the CPs... |
| 13:01 | <annevk> | the W3C is trying to hire someone for it, in case you missed that |
| 13:02 | <annevk> | as a fulltime job |
| 13:02 | <annevk> | I think it's the first time the W3C offers to pay an editor |
| 13:04 | <hsivonen> | annevk: interesting. I missed that. |
| 13:04 | <hsivonen> | annevk: have you applied for the job now that you are no longer at Opera? :-) |
| 13:06 | <Ms2ger> | hsivonen, nah, he's going to do XSLT :) |
| 13:06 | <annevk> | hsivonen: not sure why I would put time in what Hixie is already doing quite well |
| 13:07 | <hsivonen> | annevk: speaking of editorships, are you keeping the editorship of the specs you were editing as an Opera employee? |
| 13:08 | <annevk> | hsivonen: yeah, I plan to apply for invited expert status |
| 13:09 | <hsivonen> | annevk: cool. I hope whatever your new business model is allows you to keep editing. |
| 13:10 | <annevk> | hsivonen: I hope so too :) |
| 13:22 | <gsnedders> | Hixie: U+1D113 is the musical symbol, which is different to what you want in verse. |
| 13:33 | hsivonen | finds http://www.w3.org/Consortium/Recruitment/#techeditor |
| 14:19 | <annevk> | " I believe the WG already has consensus on this point." (on public-webappsec) |
| 14:19 | <annevk> | not sure why we need to have consensus on facts, but I guess... |
| 14:29 | <hsivonen> | hooray. not declaring the character encoding is now invalid. |
| 14:29 | <hsivonen> | so I get to remove some complexity from the HTML parser's Java version |
| 14:52 | <odinho> | hsivonen: Oh the joys in life! |
| 14:58 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen: I just finished rewriting the Content-Type parsing |
| 14:58 | <MikeSmith> | testing it now |
| 14:58 | <MikeSmith> | will send you a patch when I think it's ready |
| 16:41 | <Ms2ger> | Philip`, any chance you could put a warning on http://philip.html5.org/tests/canvas/ that those tests aren't updated anymore? |
| 16:46 | <dglazkov> | good morning, Whatwg! |
| 16:58 | <Hixie> | annevk: where would you suggest i e-mail, and what would you suggest i say in said e-mail? |
| 17:55 | <MikeSmith> | so I made a patch that adds an error-reporting Content-Type header parser to the validator |
| 17:55 | <MikeSmith> | and pushed it to http://qa-dev.w3.org:8888/ |
| 17:56 | <MikeSmith> | please test |
| 17:56 | <MikeSmith> | or if anybody has any Content-Type test cases please point me to them |
| 18:51 | <Hixie> | there's some content-type tests on hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/http i think, dunno if they'd help |
| 19:20 | <sunshinehappy> | te//o |
| 19:25 | <sunshinehappy> | hello |
| 19:25 | <sunshinehappy> | what is it |
| 19:26 | <Hixie> | what is what |
| 19:27 | <Philip`> | Ms2ger: Yes, if I still remember by the time I have a proper computer+internet set up, and am not too grossly lazy |
| 19:29 | <sunshinehappy> | whatwg |
| 19:31 | <Hixie> | sunshinehappy: it's where we write the html standard and some other specs |
| 19:31 | <sunshinehappy> | why do you guys write HTML standard? I thought that's what W3C do |
| 19:32 | <Hixie> | we work with the w3c |
| 19:32 | <Hixie> | they're currently more focused on releasing a snapshot |
| 19:32 | <sunshinehappy> | cool! |
| 19:32 | <Hixie> | we're doing the work on future stuff |
| 19:32 | <Hixie> | (thought right now they are not making any changes, so they're also missing the fixes we're making to the old stuff) |
| 19:32 | <Hixie> | (but they plan on fixing that) |
| 19:33 | <sunshinehappy> | what's are the ideas for future? |
| 19:33 | <Hixie> | MikeSmith: do you know if r12a is on irc anywhere? |
| 19:34 | <Hixie> | sunshinehappy: right now i'm doing research for an inputmode="" attribute on <input> to help people write web pages for mobile phones |
| 19:34 | <Hixie> | sunshinehappy: so you can say e.g. "this input field should have automatic capitalisation" or "this should default to all lowercase" |
| 19:34 | <sunshinehappy> | cool :) |
| 19:34 | <Hixie> | sunshinehappy: trying to fill in this page: http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Text_input_keyboard_mode_control |
| 19:34 | <Hixie> | unfortunately i'm finding it hard to find any information on how input modalities work in asian markets |
| 19:35 | <Hixie> | in particular, chinese, japanese, and korean |
| 19:35 | <Hixie> | also vietnamese i hear needs something special but i can't find any data on it |
| 20:05 | <loincloth> | Hixie: that example and a number of HTML5 form features strike me as blurring the line between markup and behaviors.. do i miss the point or is that a legitimate observation? |
| 20:05 | <loincloth> | i'm sure HTML5 wasn't the first to dance around that line, either.. i sometimes think JS and CSS should be one language, too, so i'm just thinking out loud.. curious for reactions |
| 20:35 | <Tabatkins> | loincloth: We've been blurring that line for forever. It's not a sacrosanct barrier. |
| 20:36 | <Tabatkins> | HTML blends content and behavior in a lot of form stuff, and <details>, etc. It blend content and style in its half-presentational elements. CSS blends style and content with pseudo-elements. It blends style and behavior with :hover/:focus/:active, and Animations. JS blends everything, because it's a fully-powered programming language. |
| 20:44 | <loincloth> | Tabatkins: indeed.. as i said, i know this musing isn't new.. but a new example was given that sparked further discussion |
| 21:19 | <Hixie> | loincloth: not sure what the difference is |
| 21:20 | <loincloth> | Hixie: between? |
| 21:34 | <Hixie> | loincloth: markup and behaviours |
| 21:35 | <Hixie> | loincloth: or rather, they seem to be orthogonal |
| 21:35 | <Hixie> | loincloth: you can use markup to describe behaviours... it's like the difference between "english" and "poetry" |
| 21:44 | <annevk> | Hixie: whatwg⊙wo and maybe public-html⊙wo |
| 21:45 | <annevk> | Hixie: just state that from the perspective of the WHATWG we'll keep updating HTML and do so by paying attention to the WHATWG/HTML Bugzilla component and that for W3C HTML people can contact the W3C |
| 21:46 | <annevk> | Hixie: and maybe elaborate on the scripts you wrote to keep the two parties in sync as far as incoming information goes |
| 21:49 | <Hixie> | well my goal for keeping stuff in sync in the future is just that i'll keep an eye on the w3c side |
| 21:50 | <Hixie> | and the chairs haven't asked me to do anything for their side |
| 21:50 | <Hixie> | so e.g. bugs aren't being automatically filed on both sides |
| 21:51 | <Hixie> | not sure i should post anything to public-html, i'd probably get flamed to death |
| 21:51 | <annevk> | I think we should at least inform whatwg⊙wo about why some people received an email about a duplicated bug |
| 21:51 | <Hixie> | fair enough |
| 21:51 | <annevk> | and how W3C HTML and WHATWG HTML are no longer in sync |
| 21:52 | <Hixie> | might be worth you doing a blog post about it too |
| 21:52 | <Hixie> | so feel free to crib from the e-mail i'm going to write |
| 21:53 | <annevk> | yeah was planning on doing that |
| 21:53 | <annevk> | maybe I'll include one of the memes people made |
| 21:53 | <Hixie> | there are memes? |
| 21:53 | <annevk> | http://w3cmemes.tumblr.com/post/27561016967 is fun |
| 21:53 | <annevk> | http://w3cmemes.tumblr.com/post/27558722901/stereotypical-html-wg-poll-respondent about the polls is kind of funny too |
| 21:54 | <Hixie> | heh |
| 21:54 | <Hixie> | let's not insult w3c too prominently... :-P |
| 22:07 | <othermaciej> | I wonder what this one's about? http://w3cmemes.tumblr.com/post/27215424834/the-most-interesting-standards-guy-in-the-world |
| 22:10 | <smaug____> | that is a good one :) |
| 22:12 | <annevk> | othermaciej: ask hober ;) |
| 22:12 | <annevk> | nn |
| 22:16 | <pablof_> | Hixie: re: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/association-of-controls-and-forms.html#dom-textarea/input-setrangetext |
| 22:17 | <pablof_> | Hixie: in step 6, shouldn't "selection start" be "start" and "selection end" be "end"? |
| 22:17 | <pablof_> | Hixie: also, in step 8, for "select", shouldn't "selection end" be set to "start + replacement.length()"? similar for mode "end" |
| 22:17 | <Hixie> | yikes, that does seem plausible |
| 22:18 | <Hixie> | can you file a bug using the widget at the bottom right? |
| 22:18 | <pablof_> | sure |
| 22:20 | <Hixie> | thanks |
| 22:49 | <Hixie> | ok, long rambling administrivia e-mail sent |
| 23:08 | <heycam> | the name "operation convergance" is presumably ironic then? |
| 23:09 | <zewt> | operation fragment bug discussion |
| 23:09 | <Hixie> | heycam: not really, the worry was that if we didn't clone the bugs that each bug would only be dealt with by one bug, so it'd be even worse |
| 23:10 | <Hixie> | heycam: at least this way all the bugs are handled by both groups, so whoever gets to a bug second can first check what the other group did and try to keep in step |
| 23:10 | <heycam> | Hixie, I see |
| 23:10 | <Hixie> | heycam: it's pretty inevitable that the specs will diverge more, though, imho |
| 23:10 | <heycam> | Hixie, yeah |
| 23:10 | <heycam> | Hixie, hopefully when the W3C find an editor on their side that they can keep up |
| 23:10 | <Hixie> | yeah well that's another thing |
| 23:11 | <Hixie> | i don't think it'll be physically possible for the wg to keep up, given their process |
| 23:11 | <Hixie> | whoever they have as editor |
| 23:11 | <heycam> | interesting times, then |
| 23:11 | <Hixie> | i mean, one of the reasons i was in favour of this split is that i was being slowed down by the process |
| 23:11 | <Hixie> | and i didn't have to keep up with anyone... |
| 23:11 | <heycam> | heh yeah |
| 23:14 | <Hixie> | interesting times indeed, i'm really quite honestly curious to see where this goes |
| 23:34 | <MikeSmith> | Hixie: thanks will take a look at those content-type tests |
| 23:35 | <MikeSmith> | and no Richard's not around on irc right now |
| 23:35 | <MikeSmith> | he's not always on so many hours |
| 23:35 | <MikeSmith> | I think he may come on when he has meetings and drop off sometimes when he's working |
| 23:36 | <MikeSmith> | but if it's about the input-mode stuff, I can help with modalities for Japanese |