| 03:31 | <zewt> | i'm declaring the most useless often-used feature of HTML: copying/pasting HTML |
| 03:32 | <zewt> | every single time I copy text from one webpage and paste it into something like gmail or evernote I have to paste it into vim and copy it to get rid fo styling, or it pastes in some gigantic font or something else equally useless |
| 06:45 | <benschwarz> | Hixie: !ping |
| 07:18 | <annevk> | the new memes cracked me up |
| 07:22 | <annevk> | http://golem.ph.utexas.edu/~distler/blog/archives/002545.html <video poster> implementations are kind of bad when it comes to small videos |
| 08:00 | <hsivonen> | annevk: I observe that Jacques Distler's blog is not using MathML-in-text/html yet :-/ |
| 08:01 | <annevk> | what's the benefit for him? |
| 08:02 | <hsivonen> | no benefit, I suppose, at the point where all XML bugs have been fixed and everything works |
| 08:03 | <hsivonen> | well, at least we carefully engineered the parsing algorithm to cater to the use cases seen on his blog |
| 08:04 | <annevk> | :) |
| 08:05 | <annevk> | the main benefit of HTML I guess is that you can use math entities and they will always work |
| 08:05 | <annevk> | whereas in XML it depends on whether the DTD is loaded |
| 08:06 | <hsivonen> | also, with current implementations, the page might load a tiny bit faster as HTML thanks to speculative loading on the HTML code path |
| 08:07 | <annevk> | but I think he normalizes them away |
| 08:09 | <hsivonen> | http://98.245.80.27/tcpc/OSCON2011/gbu.html is interesting |
| 08:11 | <annevk> | pretty positive over Go |
| 08:19 | <hsivonen> | http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=7201&to=7202 isn't a particularly useful response to the email hober sent. Basically, it kicks the problem the validator developers' court |
| 08:19 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen: indeed |
| 08:20 | <annevk> | hsivonen: only if you decide it's worth the additional UI |
| 08:20 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen: have you seen http://validator.keegan.st/ yet? |
| 08:23 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: I haven't |
| 08:23 | hsivonen | looks |
| 08:26 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: supporting CORS without a specific use case seems to have paid off |
| 08:27 | <MikeSmith> | yeah |
| 08:27 | <MikeSmith> | think it would be worthwhile to upstream that filter feature? |
| 08:31 | <hsivonen> | potentially, yes. need to play with it some more to have a proper opinion |
| 09:55 | <annevk> | heh http://www.netmagazine.com/interviews/ian-hickson-html5-vs-html |
| 09:55 | <annevk> | they still use the same old picture |
| 09:58 | <annevk> | http://my.opera.com/hallvors/blog/2012/07/25/sometimes-it-helps-to-speak-norwegian-in-new-zealand sounds fucked up |
| 09:59 | <annevk> | an <input type=submit> always has a value? |
| 10:25 | <jgraham> | Sweet jesus someone has to find a better picture of Hixie |
| 10:35 | <tantek> | the netmagazine article was pretty decent |
| 10:35 | <tantek> | obligatory troll commentary aside |
| 10:35 | <tantek> | s/troll/trollish |
| 10:36 | <tantek> | jgraham - what's wrong with the picture of Hixie - is it too old? |
| 10:37 | <tantek> | annevk - that *is* an odd bug re: submit. |
| 10:39 | <Stevef_> | tantek: what is trollish about the comment? |
| 10:40 | <tantek> | Stevef_ not comment, just some trollish commentary in the article itself. |
| 10:40 | <tantek> | I didn't notice anything trollish about your comment. |
| 10:40 | <Stevef_> | tantek: OK just checking |
| 10:43 | <tantek> | Stevef_ if you're curious, the "quicksand" comparison was what I was referring to. |
| 10:44 | <Stevef_> | tantek: ah OK |
| 10:44 | <Stevef_> | tantek: missed mention of shelley previoulsy... |
| 10:54 | <odinho> | ;-) |
| 10:56 | Ms2ger | thinks it better not to comment on Shelley |
| 11:19 | <hsivonen> | What's new in Opera Mobile for Android: 'Improved handling of meta-tag "format detection"' |
| 11:19 | <hsivonen> | what does that really mean? |
| 11:28 | <tantek> | hsivonen - plenty of "formats" have been proposed recently (the past year + ) that use meta-tags (e.g. Facebook OGP, Twitter Cards), perhaps they're referring to some of those. |
| 11:32 | <MikeSmith> | so never took time to count up myself how many specs for Web APIs are in development in various working groups, but Erik Wilde did: http://dret.typepad.com/dretblog/html5-api-overview.html |
| 11:32 | <MikeSmith> | so we have on the order of 50 different specs |
| 11:43 | <hsivonen> | It would be interesting to do a analysis 'Who ISSUEs HTML5?' and tabulate stats about whose grievances have been raised as ISSUEs, who writes CPs, whose CPs get accepted and whose accepted CPs also got accepted in WHATWG HTML and whose not |
| 11:57 | <odinho> | hsivonen: No idea. |
| 11:58 | <hsivonen> | odinho: ok. not the clearest release note line item |
| 11:59 | <odinho> | hsivonen: You could say that. :] I asked if anyone knew. |
| 11:59 | <odinho> | I could search around but I'm not that interested :P |
| 12:15 | <MikeSmith> | hmm I guess it would be useful to make an alphabetical list list of specs like http://dret.typepad.com/dretblog/html5-api-overview.html but also include the CSS3 specs and the non-W3C ones that Erik omits from that |
| 12:15 | <MikeSmith> | with those included it's more on the order of 60 specs |
| 12:22 | <hsivonen> | dealing with some of my least favorite parts of the platform: session history and window.open |
| 12:31 | <odinho> | hsivonen: Found this in the bugtracker (for that changelog entry): The other problem worth to mention is Google Play limiting number of characters in changelogs, so we always need to be as short as possible ;) |
| 12:32 | <odinho> | hsivonen: But it's not linking to the real bug, so I still don't know what it means, but now know why the log entry is so criptic :P |
| 12:32 | <hsivonen> | odinho: thanks |
| 12:34 | <odinho> | hsivonen: FOUND IT! |
| 12:34 | <odinho> | http://developer.apple.com/library/safari/#featuredarticles/iPhoneURLScheme_Reference/Articles/PhoneLinks.html#//apple_ref/doc/uid/TP40007893-SW1 ---> <meta name = "format-detection" content = "telephone=no"> |
| 12:34 | <odinho> | this here thing |
| 12:37 | <hsivonen> | odinho: thanks. totally non-obvious from the relnotes |
| 12:38 | <odinho> | hsivonen: yes, agreed. But probably because Play store had a length limit on changelogs. Should've been a link to something bigger though. |
| 12:51 | <hsivonen> | hmm. I don't see an invitation to bring <picture> to the HTML WG on the Responsive Images GC's mailing list |
| 12:51 | <hsivonen> | I wonder who did the invitation and why |
| 12:53 | <hsivonen> | I suspect the Responsive Images folks are going to face more of http://w3cmemes.tumblr.com/post/23122022271 |
| 12:53 | <hsivonen> | "And then we told them ... to submit a proposal to the HTML WG" |
| 12:56 | <odinho> | lol, the tantek one is pure gold :D |
| 13:01 | Ms2ger | looks around http://www.cs.helsinki.fi/u/pettay/moztests/xmlevents/ |
| 13:07 | <hsivonen> | at times, fixing about:blank feels hopeless |
| 13:32 | <hsivonen> | I wish the testing staff funded by Adobe, Microsoft and Google writes some good session history tests |
| 13:53 | <hsivonen> | am I the only one who read Maciej's advice about how to proceed with the era attribute as "Don't bother, but if you want a formal rejection, do this."? |
| 14:37 | <AryehGregor> | http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG11/svgdom.html#__svg__SVG_MATRIX_NOT_INVERTABLE |
| 14:37 | <AryehGregor> | Really? |
| 14:37 | <AryehGregor> | INVERTABLE? |
| 14:37 | <AryehGregor> | That made it into a spec? |
| 14:37 | <AryehGregor> | "Referer" is one thing, I'd like to think we're more professional now . . . |
| 14:40 | <Ms2ger> | Well |
| 14:40 | <Ms2ger> | SVGDOM |
| 14:42 | <odinho> | Referer <3 |
| 15:03 | <heycam> | AryehGregor, sorry about that, I added a note to SVG 1.1 Second Edition pointing out the unconventional spelling :) |
| 15:03 | <heycam> | AryehGregor, (we're moving to Web IDL exception types soon anyway) |
| 15:03 | <AryehGregor> | Yay! |
| 15:03 | <AryehGregor> | Wait, WebIDL and not DOM? |
| 15:03 | <heycam> | AryehGregor, oh using the DOM ones |
| 15:03 | <AryehGregor> | Ah. |
| 15:03 | <heycam> | I don't think we need any specific SVG ones |
| 15:04 | <Ms2ger> | Oh |
| 15:04 | <Ms2ger> | I thought you guys did that ages ago |
| 15:08 | <jarek> | SVG DOM is awful |
| 15:10 | <jarek> | anyone here thinks that SVGPathSegCurvetoQuadraticSmoothRel is a good name? |
| 15:10 | <jarek> | looks a bit over-descriptive :/ |
| 15:38 | <odinho> | jarek: Looks like Objective-C/Apple API's. |
| 15:55 | <gsnedders> | jarek: It's an awesome name! |
| 16:27 | <Hixie> | MikeSmith: to be fair, seven of those are fragments of the HTML spec |
| 16:28 | <Hixie> | and several of them are "native api" specs that really don't belong on the web in the first place imho |
| 16:29 | <Hixie> | or should be done as intent-driven web apis not implemented by the browser |
| 16:29 | <Hixie> | and he lists xhr and xhr2 as separate specs |
| 16:29 | <Hixie> | and media capture twice |
| 16:29 | <Hixie> | would be nice to have platform.html5.org updated to include any that were missed though |
| 16:44 | <annevk> | Hixie: maybe we need meta⊙wo? http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2012/02/listen-to-your-community-but-dont-let-them-tell-you-what-to-do.html |
| 16:45 | <annevk> | on the other hand, we've been mostly good for eight years |
| 16:56 | karlcow | weird |
| 16:56 | karlcow | wonders what is the correct term instead of INVERTABLE? |
| 16:57 | <annevk> | INVERTIBLE |
| 16:57 | <karlcow> | annevk: thanks |
| 17:00 | <jzaefferer> | The spec is pretty ambigous about popstate event being fired on pageload: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/history.html - now we have Chrome doing that, Firefox not. I'd like to see that fixed before we get stuck with that mess forever. Looking for some guidance how. |
| 17:01 | <jzaefferer> | from the MDN article https://developer.mozilla.org/en/DOM/window.onpopstate - "Browsers tend to handle the popstate event differently on page load. Chrome and Safari always emit a popstate event on page load, but Firefox doesn't." - that sucks for users |
| 17:03 | <jzaefferer> | MikeSmith: as my goto-whatwg person, any comment on the above? |
| 17:04 | <Ms2ger> | jzaefferer, file a bug to get it defined |
| 17:05 | <jzaefferer> | Ms2ger: okay, which tracker would be the right one? |
| 17:06 | <Ms2ger> | https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/enter_bug.cgi?product=WHATWG&component=HTML |
| 17:07 | <jzaefferer> | okay, thanks |
| 17:09 | <Ms2ger> | Np |
| 17:15 | <tantek> | annevk - the meta topic is interesting from a community management perspective. |
| 17:16 | <tantek> | however, it tends to eventually be dominated by people that don't love a community (as Atwood suggests), but by people that love meta for meta's sake. |
| 17:16 | <tantek> | prime example: the amount of time spent discussing, arguing, and trying to meet the steps for "process" at W3C. |
| 17:17 | <tantek> | so no, I don't think we need meta⊙wo |
| 17:18 | <tantek> | I mean unless you want to create a support group ;) for people who love meta for meta's sake *and* somehow found themselves involved with whatwg. It could be an interesting honeypot, to keep meta talk out of other fora. |
| 17:20 | <hober> | it could be useful as a honeypot |
| 17:24 | karlcow | is not subscribing to meta ☺ ever |
| 17:24 | <karlcow> | already enough of nonsense everywhere |
| 17:27 | <annevk> | tantek: fair enough |
| 17:28 | <tantek> | karlcow - but you *love* discussing process :) |
| 17:28 | <Ms2ger> | tantek, well, the point is to keep them away from the productive people ;) |
| 17:29 | <annevk> | tantek: I wasn't quite sure what we'd use it for either, just thought I'd suggest it so it could be considered |
| 17:30 | <tantek> | I feel like #whatwg provides a sufficient meta-forum. Perhaps consider meta@ lazily, that is, avoid it until someone makes a strong case+demand for it, and then give it to them. |
| 17:31 | <karlcow> | tantek: not really ☺ I love understanding/observing communities. I do not think there is one solution for all. I have the gut feeling that all Process often fails at having an annotated version with links to historical references. |
| 17:31 | <tantek> | +1 on Process often fails at having an annotated version with links to historical references |
| 17:33 | <tantek> | karlcow - in addition, I think the bigger failure of most process documentation is that it fails to document what's specifically been avoided/rejected (and why). |
| 17:41 | karlcow | is still thinking about that last sentence from Tantek |
| 17:41 | <Hixie> | tantek++ re not neeting a meta mailing list |
| 17:41 | <Hixie> | and re #whatwg being it |
| 17:41 | <Hixie> | needing, even |
| 17:42 | <Hixie> | that typo bodes poorly for the day's activities |
| 17:43 | <karlcow> | hmmm lightly to heavily documented https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stare_decisis#Civil_law_systems differences depending on countries |
| 17:43 | <Ms2ger> | Hixie, might give you a nice set of easy typo-bugs tomorrow :) |
| 17:44 | <Hixie> | hah |
| 17:44 | <Hixie> | got plenty of those already |
| 17:48 | <Hixie> | volkmar: yt? |
| 17:52 | <volkmar> | Hixie: yes |
| 17:54 | <Hixie> | volkmar: do you know much abotu setMessageHandler()? as in https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups#!topic/mozilla.dev.webapi/o8bkwx0EtmM |
| 18:05 | <volkmar> | damn, I was going to send you that link :) |
| 18:06 | <volkmar> | what do you want to know? |
| 18:48 | <Hixie> | tantek: do you have an ETA for the autocomplete feedback you were going to send btw? (for planning purposes) |
| 18:53 | <Hixie> | for anyone who is interested, my current (incomplete and in parts wrong) strawman proposal for merging all the various content handlers, web intents, web activities, system messages, etc, proposals is: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/scratch |
| 19:31 | <Wilto> | hsivonen: Ian Jacobs reached out to me on behalf of the HTML WG chairs, to the best of my knowledge. |
| 19:32 | <Wilto> | hsivonen: That is, simply to post the proposal to the list. |
| 19:38 | <annevk> | http://html5.org/r/7203 lol |
| 19:38 | <Hixie> | :-P |
| 19:39 | <annevk> | haven't seen requests for XMLHttpRequest yet |
| 19:39 | <Hixie> | weird |
| 19:42 | <hober> | Hixie: what's the use case for having "new" AND "reuse"? |
| 19:42 | <Hixie> | most intents won't be able to handle the same page being used for two intents |
| 19:42 | <Hixie> | think, e-mail compose window intent handler |
| 19:43 | <Hixie> | so for those, you'd want "new" |
| 19:43 | <Ms2ger> | annevk, count this as a request :) |
| 19:43 | <Hixie> | "reuse" is for the cases where the app can in fact handle multiple things at once |
| 19:43 | <Hixie> | hober: does that make sense? |
| 19:43 | <annevk> | Ms2ger: you don't count :p |
| 19:44 | <Hixie> | hober: (btw, your input on this in general is very welcome, i'm very interested in safari and opera input on this since it has mostly been a mozilla and chrome thing so far) |
| 19:44 | <hober> | I suppose. Being stupid or lossy under the "reuse" behavior seems like a bad way to code an intent handler. |
| 19:44 | <Hixie> | (also interested in IE feedback, should any Microsoft people be lurking here or reading the logs) |
| 19:44 | <Hixie> | hober: right, hence why you'd say you're a "new" handler, then you don't have to worry about it |
| 19:44 | <Hixie> | hober: you wouldn't want all your e-mail compose intents to end up in the same tab :-) |
| 19:45 | <Hixie> | or all your "open PDF in new window" intents :-) |
| 19:45 | <hober> | why would "open pdf in new window" have anything to do with this mechanism? :) |
| 19:46 | <Hixie> | PDF viewing sites might well call registerContentHandler() for application/pdf |
| 19:46 | <hober> | "PDF viewing sites" *shudder* |
| 19:46 | <Hixie> | ok, 3D Model Viewing Sites |
| 19:46 | <Hixie> | whatever :-) |
| 19:47 | <Hixie> | think of Pages as a web page |
| 19:47 | <Hixie> | it handles the "open Pages app" intent |
| 19:47 | <Hixie> | er |
| 19:47 | <Hixie> | "open Pages doc" intent |
| 19:47 | <Hixie> | but each Pages doc ends up in a new Window |
| 19:47 | <Hixie> | so it's like "new" |
| 19:48 | <Hixie> | but then consider the "open MP3 doc" intent that iTunes supports |
| 19:48 | <Hixie> | it handles all of them in the same window |
| 19:48 | <Hixie> | so it's like "reuse" |
| 19:52 | <hober> | *nod* |
| 19:54 | <annevk> | oh hober |
| 19:54 | <annevk> | poor you |
| 19:54 | <hober> | On the plus side, I don't have to think much about what my Halloween costume will be at TPAC this year |
| 19:54 | <annevk> | I mean, have the funnest time |
| 19:55 | <annevk> | haha |
| 19:55 | <Hixie> | because you'll have given up and become an alpaca farmer by then? :-) |
| 19:55 | <hober> | (Zoidberg, obviously) |
| 19:56 | <hober> | hahahaha |
| 19:57 | <Hixie> | do you know when the four of you will begin editing? |
| 19:57 | <annevk> | I considered alpaca farming, but then the tent froze over during the night and I decided not to |
| 19:57 | <Hixie> | hober: (i'm mainly curious about when i should bother approaching y'all to see how you want to handle getting new bugs to both teams) |
| 19:58 | <Ms2ger> | I guess I could see that coming |
| 20:02 | <hober> | Hixie: the initial meeting hasn't even happened, so "not this week" is probably a safe answer. |
| 20:03 | <Hixie> | you're going to have meetings? |
| 20:03 | <Hixie> | oh poor poor hober |
| 20:03 | <Hixie> | lunch, bbiab |
| 21:17 | <tantek> | Hixie - re: autocomplete feedback completion ETA, good estimate would be next Monday, though I plan to work on it a bunch today. |
| 21:17 | <tantek> | I'll be basing my feedback on editing in real-time the hcard-input page in case anyone is interested in stalking/following along (edit notifications also go to #microformats) http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-input#next_actions |
| 21:47 | <Hixie> | Any quirks mode spec people around? |
| 23:55 | <tantek> | Hixie, I've purged quirks mode details from my memory since leaving Microsoft. Hoping that many (most?) of them no longer matter. |