| 00:03 | <Hixie> | well we have a quirks spec now so they're no longer really quirks :-) |
| 00:06 | <tantek> | I'm sure it'll evolve into the "no doctype" mode over time for ultraminimalists. |
| 01:08 | <hober> | is there a w3c bugzilla component for the fullscreen spec? |
| 05:04 | <hsivonen> | Wilto: interesting. not at all who I expected. thanks. |
| 05:05 | <hsivonen> | looks like my guess that hober was on track to editing HTML5 was right but not exclusively right |
| 05:06 | <hsivonen> | Wilto: anyway, to get adaptive images to implementation, I expect working through the WHATWG Community Group to be more productive than working through the HTML WG |
| 05:07 | <hsivonen> | Wilto: if you try to get it into HTML5, it will go into the Process bureaucracy and get rejected |
| 05:07 | <hsivonen> | Wilto: if you try to get it into HTML.next via the HTML WG, it will get delayed due to the focus on HTML5 |
| 05:07 | <hsivonen> | Wilto: while the actual ongoing work on HTML happens at the WHATWG |
| 05:09 | <hsivonen> | congrats to the new editors |
| 05:55 | <MikeSmith> | hober: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?product=WebAppsWG&component=Fullscreen&resolution=--- |
| 05:58 | <Hixie> | how is that in WebApps |
| 05:58 | <Hixie> | isn't that a CSS thing? |
| 06:00 | <roc_> | arguably, but it's more DOM API than anything else |
| 06:00 | <Hixie> | i meant CSSWG thing |
| 06:01 | <Hixie> | agreed entirely that it's an API |
| 06:02 | <roc_> | I guess |
| 06:02 | <Hixie> | i shouldn't try to understand w3c stuff |
| 06:04 | <Hixie> | hey so i'm marking all the things in the spec that lead to fingerprinting |
| 06:04 | <Hixie> | anyone think of any i might have missed? |
| 06:16 | <benvie> | in js you can identify the browser and often js engine revision by identifying the MAX_STACK count though that's not a whatwg thing |
| 06:17 | <Hixie> | as in function foo() { count+=1; foo() } var count = 0; try { foo() } catch (e) { alert(count) } ? |
| 06:17 | <benvie> | yeah |
| 06:17 | <benvie> | in v8 you can pin it to a specific revision |
| 06:18 | <benvie> | since for some reason it varies each release, but is static for that release |
| 06:18 | <Hixie> | huh |
| 06:18 | <Hixie> | heh, i guess firefox implements tail recursion optimisations because it never stopped for me :-) |
| 06:19 | <benvie> | yeah it's weird |
| 06:19 | <benvie> | it worse in spidermonkey shell, but not firefox |
| 06:19 | <benvie> | it works in any webkit and it works in IE |
| 06:19 | <AryehGregor> | Hixie, why are Latin and CJK the only scripts singled out in inputmode? Is <input inputtype=latin> really meant to mean "whatever the usual script is for the current language"? If so, why is it called "Latin"? |
| 06:19 | <benvie> | so jsc and v8 are similar |
| 06:20 | <benvie> | but in spidermonkey shell it always returned 4000 so it was useless except to identify generally that it was firefox |
| 06:20 | <benvie> | er spidermonkey |
| 06:23 | <benvie> | http://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=117531 is the issue I filed with Chromium since it's so specific as to almost be a security issue |
| 06:53 | <Hixie> | ok, i've added notes in the spec for fingerprinting risk |
| 06:54 | <Hixie> | AryehGregor: because nobody from any cultures other than the japanese responded to me six zillion requests for information, and i only knew about western (latin) input mode requirements. |
| 06:54 | <Hixie> | s/me/my/ |
| 06:55 | <Hixie> | AryehGregor: so i finally said screw it, i'll give what the japaneses and the latin-script-using-west need, and if anyone else wants anything, they can get it when they provide me with the info i need |
| 07:00 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: yay for "latin" instead of "en", etc. |
| 07:00 | <hsivonen> | It's super-annoying when software is designed with the assumption that people who write in two languages write in two scripts |
| 07:01 | <hsivonen> | maybe once Spanish usage goes high enough in the U.S., more software designers realize that people input multiple languages with one Latin layout |
| 07:02 | hsivonen | has to turn off input prediction on Android, because it doesn't support predicting both English and Finnish without being explicitly told which one to predict at a given time |
| 07:04 | <hsivonen> | (on the bright side, Android support putting the U.S. English speech regornition button on a Finnish keyboard) |
| 07:04 | <hsivonen> | *supports |
| 07:05 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: btw, any reason not to reuse 4-letter script codes from the language tag RFC? |
| 07:11 | <Hixie> | hsivonen: on android you can make the space bar support switching languages, which is what i do for english vs french |
| 07:12 | <annevk> | Hixie: Fullscreen is in both WebApps and CSS :( |
| 07:12 | <Hixie> | hsivonen: but yeah, same keyboard, different language, that's a separate axis than inputmode |
| 07:12 | <Hixie> | hsivonen: reuse the script codes for what? |
| 07:12 | <annevk> | Hixie: And the CSS part is problematic with their sync decision making and mailing list I'm not subscribed to |
| 07:12 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: keyboard category |
| 07:13 | <Hixie> | annevk: why not just do it like your other specs? |
| 07:13 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: I don't want to tell Android whether I'm writing Finnish or English |
| 07:13 | <Hixie> | hsivonen: oh because i don't expect the script labels to match well to what keyboards inputmode="" needs |
| 07:13 | <annevk> | Hixie: The editor's draft is the WHATWG draft |
| 07:13 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: surely Google's mighty algorithms should be able to figure out which language of the two I'm writing after a word or so |
| 07:13 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: ok |
| 07:14 | <Hixie> | annevk: fun |
| 07:14 | <annevk> | so much |
| 07:15 | <Hixie> | hsivonen: it's pretty hard to distinguish poor typing from another language, probably. still, long-tap space bar, tap language, it's not exactly a burden to switch back and forth |
| 07:16 | <Hixie> | annevk: just FSA it and then you don't have to worry every again about the webapps/css versions :-) |
| 07:23 | <Hixie> | nn |
| 07:24 | <annevk> | Hixie: did you mark the Navigator object's friends? |
| 07:25 | <annevk> | looks like |
| 07:25 | <annevk> | that is one ugly icon btw |
| 07:26 | <annevk> | :) |
| 07:46 | <AryehGregor> | Hixie, what info do you need? |
| 07:47 | <AryehGregor> | I'd think most scripts would work the same as Latin, basically. |
| 07:48 | <AryehGregor> | What's the difference meant to be between "verbatim", "latin", and "latin-prose"? What are the use-cases for the distinction? |
| 08:18 | <AryehGregor> | I can fill you in on any Hebrew-specific issues, if there are any. |
| 08:22 | <jgraham> | So, what did I miss? |
| 08:31 | <liebrand> | hi there… i've been trying to unsubscribe from the whatwg mailing list, but although it claims it has sent me a confirmation email to unsubscribe, I never receive that email.. i've tried a few times now and checked my spam folder as well.. is there any other way to unsubscribe? |
| 08:32 | <AryehGregor> | liebrand, are you sure you're unsubscribing the right e-mail address? |
| 08:32 | <liebrand> | yeah, 99% sure |
| 08:34 | <liebrand> | is there someone one here that can verify my email address? |
| 08:35 | <AryehGregor> | Well, Hixie can. Dunno if anyone else has admin privileges to the list. |
| 08:37 | <liebrand> | ok thanks |
| 08:59 | <annevk> | liebrand: email ian⊙hc if all else fails |
| 09:09 | <Smylers> | Apologies for the duplicate mails to the list. |
| 09:10 | <Smylers> | Apparently my mailer was picking up both the CC: whatwg⊙wo and the List-Post: <mailto:whatwg⊙lwo> headers of the mail I was replying to. |
| 09:10 | <Smylers> | I'll try to watch out for that in future. |
| 09:17 | <jgraham> | So, uh, why did all my bugs get cloned? |
| 09:18 | <odinho> | jgraham: Because whatwg got its own HTML bugzilla place :) |
| 09:18 | <odinho> | jgraham: Read Administrativa email to the WHATWG-list. |
| 09:19 | <liebrand> | annevk: thanks! |
| 09:21 | <annevk> | Smylers: Gmail copes |
| 09:22 | <jgraham> | odinho: That email told me to stop reading after the first paragraph :p |
| 09:22 | <odinho> | jgraham: lol, that doesn't mean you. |
| 09:22 | <odinho> | "If you've been happily ignoring the W3C's involvement with HTML these past |
| 09:22 | <odinho> | few years, you can stop reading now. If you got a bunch of bugmail |
| 09:22 | <odinho> | recently and want to know why, the explanation is below." |
| 09:23 | <odinho> | Second part of that is absolutely you. |
| 09:23 | <Smylers> | annevk: In that case, apologies for bothering you here with an unnecessary apology! |
| 09:23 | <jgraham> | odinho: Then Hixie should reorder his if clauses |
| 09:23 | <jgraham> | Is there somewhere I can report a bug on the email? |
| 09:23 | <Smylers> | jgraham: You've been happily ignoring the W3C, while using their Bugzilla to report spec bugs? |
| 09:24 | <odinho> | jgraham: I think this channel is it. |
| 09:26 | <jgraham> | Smylers: It wouldn't make much difference to me if the bug tracker were run by the US president or Tibetan monks |
| 09:27 | <Smylers> | jgraham: OK, that covers the ‘ignoring’. Can you prove the ‘happily’? |
| 09:29 | <jgraham> | Hmm, so if the spec is Just Wrong, I now have to file two bugs rather than one? |
| 09:30 | <Smylers> | jgraham: Only if you care about the W3C's edition of the spec. |
| 09:30 | <Smylers> | jgraham: If you continue ignoring it — happily or otherwise — then you don't have to report it there. |
| 09:30 | <jgraham> | Or is the assumption that being wrong ("stable") is a desired property of the W3C spec? |
| 09:31 | <Smylers> | jgraham: Also, Hixie said he'll keep an eye on bugs reported on the W3C spec to see if they apply to the WhatWG spec too. Possibly the new W3C editors will do likewise in reverse. |
| 09:32 | <jgraham> | Smylers: It seems to me that the new system requires me to pay more attention to the W3C than the old system. Previously Hixie ensured that there were few differences in areas that are actually interoperability concerns |
| 09:33 | <jgraham> | Now everyone has to do this for themselves |
| 09:36 | <odinho> | jgraham: What with the pessimism? Lets try it out :P |
| 09:36 | <jgraham> | This wouldn't be a problem but people continue to percieve the W3C version of the spec as the "definitive" one that they should refer to from other specs |
| 09:36 | <jgraham> | odinho: I don't understand your negative attitude toward pessimism |
| 09:36 | <odinho> | :P |
| 09:37 | <Stevef_> | jgraham: suppose the assumption is that implementation bugs in HTMl5 will be fixed by the editorial team up until time when it gets frozen, then bugs will get fixed in htmlx |
| 09:39 | jgraham | retreats to the relative safety of public-webapps |
| 09:40 | <Stevef_> | jgraham: there are a number of people on the team that are switched on to the importance of keeping the specs aligned on the brwoser implementation side so the hope is... |
| 09:41 | <jgraham> | Stevef_: If people are going to put in the effort to keep the specs in alignment as far as UA conformance criteria go, that is great, but I fear the task will be Herculean |
| 09:42 | <Smylers> | jgraham: If the W3C spec suffers from bugs, because they've only been fixed in the WhatWG spec, that may lead to a change in the perception of which one is seen as definitive. |
| 09:42 | <jgraham> | Smylers: Ah, is that what optimisim sounds like? |
| 09:43 | <Stevef_> | jgraham: understand the concern, but there are 4 editors + their will be a full time technical editor, so they may have some chnace in keeping up with hixie. Also the canvas stuff will have a seperate team |
| 09:46 | <jgraham> | I suppose that Hixie should be flattered that he is being replaced by > 5 people |
| 10:06 | <AryehGregor> | It's not really a fair comparison, because Hixie is like the only full-time web spec editor in the universe. |
| 10:08 | <Ms2ger> | Presumably whoever the W3C ends up hiring will be the second, then |
| 10:09 | <AryehGregor> | Oh, I didn't realize there was a full-time job. |
| 10:09 | <AryehGregor> | Interesting. |
| 10:11 | <Stevef_> | aryehgregor: http://www.w3.org/Consortium/Recruitment/#techeditor |
| 10:12 | <Stevef_> | its still listed, but get the feeling they alreaedy have a candidate |
| 10:13 | <AryehGregor> | Interesting. |
| 10:14 | <AryehGregor> | I wonder if they'll get someone good. The obvious candidates are all already employed. |
| 10:14 | <Ms2ger> | Will it be hober? |
| 10:14 | <Ms2ger> | Maybe Marcosc |
| 10:39 | <annevk> | Marcos is too radical for them |
| 10:39 | <annevk> | they want someone they can control |
| 10:40 | <annevk> | and hober is already happily employed |
| 11:12 | <Stevef_> | well hober is one of the HTML5 editors now |
| 11:13 | <Stevef_> | along with sylvia pfeiffer |
| 12:01 | <sedovsek> | There's still no support for break-before, break-after, etc. for Multiple Columns in any modern browser? :/ |
| 13:41 | <annevk> | MikeSmith: hsivonen: I just approved this comment: http://blog.whatwg.org/vnu-parser-1-4#comment-43879 |
| 13:43 | <annevk> | anyone know who Erika Doyle Navara is btw? |
| 13:43 | <Ms2ger> | Oh, that's me |
| 13:45 | <annevk> | of course you are |
| 13:47 | <odinho> | hehe |
| 14:32 | <david_carlisle> | annevk: don't know, but linkedin has an Erika Doyle at "Senior Writer at Microsoft Internet Explorer Developer Content Team" ? |
| 14:33 | <david_carlisle> | annevk: oh and an Erika Navara at the same place:-) |
| 14:34 | <david_carlisle> | http://www.linkedin.com/pub/erika-navara/1/524/385 |
| 14:35 | <annevk> | just says "Greater Seattle Area Computer Software" for me |
| 14:37 | <david_carlisle> | annevk: I think you get more text if you log in. |
| 14:37 | <annevk> | ah okay, don't have an account |
| 14:37 | <david_carlisle> | annevk: very wise:-) |
| 14:39 | <annevk> | maybe we should start spelling W3C W3 C or some such |
| 14:39 | <annevk> | http://www.w3.org/QA/2012/07/html5_and_htmlnext.html how hard can it be to get a name right |
| 14:41 | <annevk> | (personal pet peeve, misspellings of names annoys me) |
| 14:41 | <david_carlisle> | It's as easy to get a name right as it is to guess gender fro the name, isn't it ? |
| 14:41 | <david_carlisle> | from |
| 14:42 | <annevk> | getting the name right is one Google search |
| 14:42 | <annevk> | getting the gender right is one Google image search typically |
| 14:42 | <david_carlisle> | annevk: well you show up in the odd google search as well:-) |
| 16:20 | <dglazkov> | good morning, Whatwg! |
| 18:06 | <jarek> | Hi |
| 18:06 | <jarek> | it looks like window.getComputedStyle completely ignores styles set with SVG presentational attributes |
| 18:07 | <jarek> | is this by design? If so, it doesn't make sense because presentational attributes are part of the cascade |
| 18:25 | <jarek> | nvm, it actually works as expected |
| 18:49 | <hober> | this is *screaming* to be meme-ified, but i fear the super cool ski instructor has made too many appearances lately. http://hueniverse.com/2012/07/oauth-2-0-and-the-road-to-hell/ |
| 18:57 | <Ms2ger> | The question is, is dbaron's desk at Harvard OAuth 2.0 compliant? |
| 19:00 | <Hixie> | man, he's come a long way |
| 19:00 | <Hixie> | he was instrumental in bringing websocket to the ietf |
| 20:34 | <annevk> | hober: could use the hyatt meme |
| 20:34 | <annevk> | hober: where everything blows up |
| 20:35 | <annevk> | hober: caption: "Just use OAuth" |
| 21:42 | <hober> | hmm. |
| 21:42 | <Hixie> | hmm? |
| 21:43 | <hober> | contemplating annevk's meme suggestion |
| 21:43 | <matjas> | astral Unicode symbols in <input type=password> show up as two asterisks: http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/1684 |
| 21:43 | <Ms2ger> | Neat |
| 21:43 | <matjas> | in all browsers I tested so far… so i guess it’s standard |
| 21:44 | <matjas> | (OS X 10.8 seems to do the same for all password fields) |
| 23:26 | <zewt> | matjas: heh yeah, the hope of web developers ever getting non-BMP characters right is pretty remote when browsers don't even get it right |
| 23:27 | <zewt> | matjas: ie9 shows a single *, fyi |
| 23:30 | <zewt> | opera shows two dots but it edits like a single character (better than ff/chrome, anyway) |
| 23:38 | <Hixie> | i swear, i'm _this_ close to dropping the authorship information in the references section |
| 23:52 | <WeirdAl> | Hixie - tired of staring at a thousand names? |
| 23:58 | <gsnedders> | zewt: Opera on what platform? This is probably different between platforms. |
| 23:58 | <gsnedders> | Well, the impl is. The behaviour might be. |
| 23:58 | <zewt> | win7 |
| 23:59 | <zewt> | haha context menu in opera on password inputs has "check spelling" |
| 23:59 | <zewt> | that might possibly be among the most useless context menu items ever |