| 00:00 | <TabAtkins> | What mail is coming from w3c.org? |
| 00:01 | <annevk> | public-webapps email |
| 00:02 | <annevk> | nn |
| 00:18 | <tiglionabbit> | how can you tell the difference between a user dragging a file or a folder into the browser? |
| 00:18 | <tiglionabbit> | in either case, event.dataTransfer.items[0].kind == "file" |
| 01:11 | <jamesr> | oh wise wizards, consider this test: http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/1805 |
| 01:12 | <jamesr> | i can write a selector to match the span with id ":foo" by \ escaping, but querySelector("#\:foo") barfs in firefox/chrome/opera. TabAtkins thinks this is just a bug in querySelector which i tend to agree with but does anyone know of a good reason for the current behavior before i file a batch o' bugs? |
| 01:13 | <jamesr> | i get really suspicious when i see a seemingly bizarre behavior that has good interop |
| 01:13 | <TabAtkins> | I'll support myself and say that, no, there's no reason, and it's definitely a bug. |
| 01:14 | <TabAtkins> | Note that this interop is probably on something very bad for authors, since it's an exception rather than being silently ignored, and there's no way around it. (Omitting the escaping slash has the same effect.) |
| 01:14 | <jamesr> | even ie9 throws here |
| 01:14 | <TabAtkins> | Jeez, it even fails when you do "#\3a foo". |
| 01:15 | <jamesr> | yeah it's damn picky |
| 01:15 | <jamesr> | is http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-selectors/#grammar supposed to be up to date? |
| 01:15 | <TabAtkins> | I'm guessing there's an eager unescaping phase that runs before the syntax checker. |
| 01:15 | <jamesr> | it's on /TR/ so i suspect no |
| 01:15 | <TabAtkins> | Probably, yes. Worst case, check Selectors 4. |
| 01:27 | <Hixie> | jamesr: querySelector("#\:foo") is exactly equivalent to querySelector("#:foo") |
| 01:27 | <TabAtkins> | jamesr: There is no grammar-based reason. The escaping thing is part of CSS/Selectors, and I recall there being an example of using a weird character in a selector somewhere, either in 2.1 or in Selectors. |
| 01:27 | <Hixie> | jamesr: try querySelector("#\\:foo") |
| 01:27 | <TabAtkins> | Sigh, I forgot about that. Goddam double escaping. |
| 01:27 | <jamesr> | aha! |
| 01:28 | TabAtkins | has memories of \\ in a PHP string to escape \ in a PHP regex to select a . |
| 01:28 | <zewt> | has any (real) language besides python attempted to solve that? heh |
| 01:28 | <TabAtkins> | You mean with Python's raw strings? |
| 01:28 | <jamesr> | writing code to deal with windows paths in any c-style language is fun |
| 01:28 | <zewt> | jamesr: it's easy. "c:/foo/bar" |
| 01:29 | <Hixie> | matching urls with regexps is fun for a similar reason -- /.../ |
| 01:29 | <TabAtkins> | Most path apis accept either direction of slashes, no? |
| 01:29 | <jamesr> | yes, most. :) |
| 01:29 | <TabAtkins> | Hixie: Most decent languages (not JS ;_;) let you use different delimiters for the regex. |
| 01:29 | <zewt> | Hixie: that's why most things ... ^ that |
| 01:29 | <jamesr> | sed -e 's?check/this/out?arbitrary/delimiters/baby?' |
| 01:33 | <Hixie> | yeah, i usually am using perl so it's no biggie once i realise the pattern is gonna contain a path/url |
| 01:34 | <Hixie> | but i often don't notice until after the first set of syntax errors :-) |
| 06:20 | <zcorpan> | LOOOOOOOOOOOOOL https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=19087 |
| 06:23 | <Hixie> | aw man |
| 06:23 | <Hixie> | i'd better check with ben goodger to see if he agrees that it's offensive |
| 06:23 | <Hixie> | the word appears 12 times in the spec! |
| 06:24 | Hixie | ponders just reassigning it to the htmlwg :-P |
| 06:26 | <jgraham> | Oh look, W3C are hiring someone to work on tests |
| 06:26 | <jgraham> | Or testing, I guess |
| 06:27 | <jgraham> | Seems like a nice idea, but the requirment for fluent japanese cuts down the potential candidates by a lot :) |
| 06:28 | <jgraham> | (I wonder if it is one of those things where they already know who they want for the job and have written the advert to match) |
| 06:33 | <heycam> | I think it's more likely that they need to hire someone through Keio for whatever reason |
| 06:35 | <heycam> | I've never heard of a NZer being offended by the term kiwi before |
| 06:45 | <doublec> | I guess it depends if the term kiwi refers to be peeled and eaten |
| 06:57 | <jgraham> | doublec: You are saying that "I'm going to eat you like a kiwi, kiwi" is offensive, but "I'm going to eat you like a kiwi-fruit, kiwi" isn't? :p |
| 06:58 | <jgraham> | (or am I misunderstanding the bug? AFAICT it doesn't claim that New Zealanders are offended by "kiwi", except when it is used to denote a fruit) |
| 06:59 | <jgraham> | (which I agree doesn't make any sense) |
| 07:02 | <doublec> | I'm not offended but I assume the bug reporter didn't like the "peel the kiwi's skin, then eat the kiwi's flesh" |
| 07:30 | <othermaciej> | my favorite part is how an Australian is reporting that New Zealanders may be offended by the term "Kiwi" |
| 07:36 | <mpt> | As a kiwi, I'm not offended when people talk about eating kiwis, I just hope this age of cannibalism will one day come to an end. |
| 07:39 | <hsivonen> | at least the tag cloud example has context that suggests fruit rather than bird or people |
| 07:40 | <mpt> | Aww, tag clouds, how very oughties |
| 07:40 | <zcorpan> | "we will encourage modularity as a preferred way to approach introducing new features into the 5.1 release." |
| 07:41 | <Ms2ger> | Was the TAG involved? |
| 07:48 | <annevk> | no man, modularity is Team-speak for small specs |
| 07:48 | <annevk> | small specs with holes inbetween |
| 07:49 | <annevk> | I have oft wondered where that modular desire comes from. No young people talk about that stuff |
| 07:50 | <Ms2ger> | Should get to rec faster |
| 07:51 | <annevk> | Microsoft Program Managers? |
| 07:51 | <zcorpan> | gotta let each feature mature at its own pace and have its own community around it (i.e. 4 new mailing lists) |
| 07:51 | <annevk> | maybe the funding is per mailing list |
| 07:51 | <zcorpan> | that might explain things |
| 08:42 | <annevk> | hehe, I think I'm about to own wtw.tf |
| 08:51 | jgraham | wonders what a wt is |
| 09:31 | <annevk> | jgraham: I'm helping out dino |
| 09:31 | <annevk> | https://twitter.com/grorg/status/156849367448428545 |
| 09:37 | <hsivonen> | since when has Opera not escaped < and > in attribute values in the innerHTML getter? |
| 09:45 | <zcorpan> | hsivonen: about since http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=2362&to=2363 |
| 09:46 | <annevk> | nice URL there |
| 09:48 | <zcorpan> | hsivonen: iirc that page does something unusually stupid like eval()ing the innerHTML of an <a href=javascript:...> or some such, which didn't work when we escaped <> (and nobody else escaped them *for href=javascript:*) |
| 09:49 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: we have a bug about the UI for a dark-matter Cisco appliance breaking because we stopped escaping <> |
| 09:49 | <hsivonen> | I gather it tries to parse innerHTML output as XML |
| 09:50 | <zcorpan> | hsivonen: ok. i guess we're screwed either way :-( |
| 09:50 | <hsivonen> | Don’t worry, your network is safe with Cisco. |
| 09:57 | <hsivonen> | by quick black-box testing, it seems the WebKit special case applies if the attribute reflects as URL and the URL has the scheme javascript |
| 10:05 | <zcorpan> | yeah i recall something along those lines as well. old gecko something similar. |
| 10:06 | <annevk> | I wonder who's going to edit XHR for the W3C |
| 10:08 | <zcorpan> | hsivonen: which attribute does cisco use here? |
| 10:18 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: DOMParser barfs on <operator name="<" value="LESS_THAN"></operator> |
| 10:18 | <hsivonen> | this would be a non-issue if DOMParser did XML5 |
| 10:21 | <hsivonen> | they have a massive “XML” island inside <xml>…</xml> |
| 10:21 | <zcorpan> | ok and the other page expected not-escaping for <a href=javascript:> (iirc) |
| 10:24 | <jgraham> | hsivonen: OOI, what are your travel plans for TPAC? |
| 10:29 | <hsivonen> | jgraham: plane from Helsinki to CDG, TGV from CDG to Lyon Part-Dieu |
| 10:30 | <hsivonen> | arrival on Sunday, leaving on Saturday |
| 10:30 | <jgraham> | OK |
| 10:30 | jgraham | is doing Test The Web Forward in Paris on the Friday/Saturday and so will also travel by train on the Sunday |
| 10:31 | <hsivonen> | this Cisco thing seems to expect there are three browsers: IE, Firefox and Safari |
| 10:31 | smaug____ | will be in Lyon also Sun-Sat |
| 10:31 | <smaug____> | hsivonen: fun |
| 10:32 | <smaug____> | hsivonen: thanks for looking the issue |
| 10:32 | <hsivonen> | smaug____: now we need to decide what to do about it |
| 10:32 | <hsivonen> | which is harder |
| 10:32 | <jgraham> | Someone should do a list like http://www.kalzumeus.com/2010/06/17/falsehoods-programmers-believe-about-names/ but for web browsers |
| 10:32 | <annevk> | jgraham: how much is the train? |
| 10:32 | <annevk> | I guess I could fly into Paris and then fly back from Lyon |
| 10:32 | <jgraham> | annevk: That probably depends, it's the last bit that I haven't booked |
| 10:33 | <hsivonen> | annevk: depends on time of day |
| 10:33 | <jgraham> | Seems to be somewhere in the range of 35-60 eur |
| 10:33 | <darobin> | the train can be relatively cheap if you book it ahead |
| 10:33 | <annevk> | ah okay |
| 10:33 | <darobin> | it's 2h — prolly shorter than flying to Lyon |
| 10:33 | <darobin> | (all told) |
| 10:34 | <hsivonen> | also, Lyon Part-Dieu has the airport code XYD |
| 10:34 | <smaug____> | hsivonen: I hate special cases |
| 10:34 | <hsivonen> | for plane-train bundle tickets |
| 10:34 | <smaug____> | hsivonen: so I like the current behavior |
| 10:34 | <hsivonen> | but I didn’t know that when I booked |
| 10:34 | <darobin> | hsivonen: you mean Lyon Saint-Exupéry — Part-Dieu is the train station |
| 10:34 | darobin | bbiab |
| 10:34 | <hsivonen> | smaug____: I like the current behavior, too |
| 10:34 | <hsivonen> | darobin: the airport is LYS |
| 10:35 | <hsivonen> | darobin: that magic code is for use for CDG–XYD train when bought through Air France ticketing |
| 10:35 | <SimonSapin> | Paris-Lyon by plane, you would spend as much time in the airports than in the air. The TGV train is 2h but you just have to get there a few minutes before. |
| 10:36 | <hsivonen> | also, TGV from CDG is cheaper than taxi from Saint-Exupéry to city center |
| 10:36 | <annevk> | "People’s names are all mapped in Unicode code points." is interesting |
| 10:37 | <annevk> | (that statement is false per the link from jgraham, fwiw) |
| 10:37 | <hsivonen> | annevk: cruel parents in this day and age, IMO, in that case |
| 10:37 | <smaug____> | silly me, I have flight from Paris to Lyon. Didn't know the train would be that much better. |
| 10:38 | <SimonSapin> | annevk: does that mean that Unicode needs more characters? |
| 10:38 | <hsivonen> | SimonSapin: no. Then parents who want to be special would invent something new that’s unique on not in Unicode |
| 10:38 | <annevk> | I don't know what it means |
| 10:39 | <hsivonen> | I’m pretty sure it means Han/Kanji names that are deliberately an unconventional combination of quill strokes to be unique |
| 10:39 | <annevk> | probably that the world is odd and full of unknown things, lots of which is created by us |
| 10:40 | <smaug____> | hsivonen: I wonder which all attributes webkit escapes |
| 10:40 | <jgraham> | Also consider the artist sometimes known as prince |
| 10:54 | <darobin> | hsivonen: ah, of course — I obviously never go through AF to get a train ride here :) |
| 10:55 | <darobin> | smaug____: if you're already on a flight and just connecting through Paris, then doing the last leg on a flight is okay |
| 10:56 | <darobin> | it's mostly shorter if you're in Paris, since the train is centre to centre |
| 10:56 | <hsivonen> | darobin: properly ticketed train is CDG to Lyon center |
| 10:57 | <darobin> | hsivonen: I know, but in that case I doubt it comes out shorter than flying to SaintEx (or by much of a diff) |
| 10:57 | <hsivonen> | shorter might not be the only thing to optimize |
| 10:59 | hsivonen | traveled from Finland to Switzerland and back without flying this summer |
| 10:59 | <darobin> | having gone from Grenoble to Å on a train, I can't easily disagree |
| 11:00 | <hsivonen> | the only part that was worse than a plane was Baltic buses from the worse company |
| 11:00 | <hsivonen> | (Baltic buses from the better company were better than plane) |
| 11:00 | <darobin> | heh |
| 11:01 | <darobin> | in my case we had a problem with the two boats that did the last leg having rammed one another in the port, and so being routed through another boat that went to the north of the Lofoten |
| 11:01 | <darobin> | which in turn went through a massive storm during fish migration period |
| 11:01 | <hsivonen> | Better company: http://www.luxexpress.eu/en Worse company: http://ecolines.net/en/ |
| 11:02 | <darobin> | fish migration means that you can use sonar, which can be problematic when there are reefs |
| 11:02 | <darobin> | so the boat had to make way using spotlights — it took a while |
| 11:02 | <darobin> | I thoroughly enjoyed it though — but I think other passengers would've preferred to fly ;) |
| 11:06 | <annevk> | hmm, maybe I should finally add chunked to XHR |
| 11:07 | <annevk> | either that or work on that query API |
| 11:11 | <zcorpan> | hsivonen: http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/1807 |
| 11:13 | <zcorpan> | smaug____: ^ |
| 11:17 | <zcorpan> | maybe only a few of those need to be supported, since javascript: doesn't work in most places anyway (at least in opera) |
| 11:17 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: supports my hypothesis of what the rule is |
| 11:17 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: thanks |
| 11:17 | <zcorpan> | hsivonen: except <html manifest> doesn't have a reflecting IDL attribute |
| 11:18 | <hsivonen> | oh |
| 11:19 | <zcorpan> | well... per spec... webkit has one |
| 11:20 | <zcorpan> | that reflects as a URL |
| 11:22 | <annevk> | why did they add one? :/ |
| 11:22 | <annevk> | hmm |
| 11:24 | <zcorpan> | i think innerHTML should use a fixed list instead of hooking in to "reflecting"... like: a href, iframe src, form action, frame src |
| 11:24 | <zcorpan> | or just a href if that's enough for compat |
| 11:26 | <zcorpan> | unfortunately this issue is hard to get compat data on |
| 11:30 | <smaug____> | I think innerHTML shouldn't escape |
| 11:30 | <smaug____> | if IE doesn't escape |
| 11:31 | <zcorpan> | if you evang Cisco, WFM :-) |
| 11:52 | <AryehGregor> | And everyone with outdated Cisco firmware, too? |
| 13:19 | <annevk> | seems nobody ever replied to other browsers being interested in chunked |
| 13:29 | <annevk> | btw |
| 13:29 | <annevk> | I don't like "Creating" for URLs at all |
| 13:30 | <annevk> | I want "Parsing"; what do I call what is named "parse" now? |
| 13:30 | <annevk> | the sweet generic "process"? |
| 14:03 | <zewt> | "Sorry but it is not late. The spec is still a working draft" ... heh |
| 14:13 | <zewt> | annevk: should the "remove any leading and trailing..." step be in create or parse? currently it seems like url = new URL(" http://foo.com "); may have a different result than url.href = " http://foo.com "; |
| 14:13 | <annevk> | I think it should be added to setting .href too |
| 14:13 | <zewt> | annevk: also the URL ctor doesn't define the case where base is a DOMString rather than a URL |
| 14:14 | <zewt> | in what case wouldn't you want it in parse? |
| 14:14 | <annevk> | setting pathname |
| 14:14 | <annevk> | zewt: I thought it did define that |
| 14:15 | <zewt> | it's probably somewhere else |
| 14:15 | <zewt> | oh yeah creating only deals with URL base so I imagine that's wherever the actual ctor is defined |
| 14:18 | <annevk> | I'll fix setting .href and rename Create to Parse and Parse to Process |
| 14:20 | <zewt> | annevk: btw. in encoding's "Unless stated otherwise emitting an encoder error", that might want to say something like "unless stated otherwise by the caller"; i interpreted that as "unless stated otherwise in the place that says emit an encoder error" |
| 14:20 | <zcorpan> | won't that result in more Process discussions? |
| 14:20 | <annevk> | zcorpan: what? |
| 14:21 | <zewt> | i think that was a joke :) |
| 14:21 | <annevk> | oh :) |
| 14:21 | annevk | is looking at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parser for a better word |
| 14:22 | <zewt> | (it would be nice for things that affect algorithm flow to be a part of the algorithm, instead of redefining things like "emit an encoder algorithm" externally, so the code paths of the spec are self-contained when possible) |
| 14:22 | <annevk> | maybe "interpret"? |
| 14:22 | <zewt> | annevk: it doesn't look like you'd ever (or very rarely) want to invoke the "parse" url algorithm from outside of the spec (you'd only use create), so that doesn't necessarily need to be short and sweet |
| 14:23 | <zewt> | eg. "update the URL state from the string..." or whatever |
| 14:23 | <zewt> | off to work, later |
| 14:24 | <annevk> | hmm, not sure if longer makes it better, but feel free to do a pull request :) |
| 18:21 | <Yuhong> | On legacy color parsing: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4581362 |
| 18:21 | <Yuhong> | http://stackoverflow.com/questions/8318911/why-does-html-think-chucknorris-is-a-color |
| 18:22 | <annevk> | even on stackoverflow and ycombinator people don't bother to read the spec |
| 18:23 | <miketaylr> | s/even/especially/ |
| 21:26 | <krijn> | annevk: y u no in #fronteers ? ;( |
| 22:42 | <Hixie> | anyone know if there's an animated gif spec, or something that passes for such a spec, anywhere? |
| 22:50 | <Hixie> | is http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2818.txt the HTTPS spec? |
| 22:54 | <jsbell> | hixie: googling for "gif89a" suggests http://www.w3.org/Graphics/GIF/spec-gif89a.txt which seems reasonable (compuserve 1990). No idea if anyone has documented modern browser handling of the beasts, though. |
| 22:54 | <Yuhong> | Anyway, I am on StackOverflow and just posted a link to the spec as an answer. |
| 22:54 | <Yuhong> | http://stackoverflow.com/questions/8318911/why-does-html-think-chucknorris-is-a-color/12630675#12630675 |
| 22:55 | <Hixie> | jsbell: doesn't look like it specs the animated pars |
| 22:55 | <Hixie> | parts |
| 22:56 | <Hixie> | jsbell: at least not all the netscape extensions |
| 23:01 | <jsbell> | Huh; I didn't realize that looping was an extension. |
| 23:02 | <jsbell> | hixie: knowing the term "application extension" leads me to http://www.matthewflickinger.com/lab/whatsinagif/ |
| 23:03 | <jsbell> | which leads to http://odur.let.rug.nl/~kleiweg/gif/netscape.html - a reasonable spec-like description of the NETSCAPE2.0 extension... |
| 23:03 | <zewt> | . o ( still dreaming of a css style to stop gif animation ) |
| 23:04 | <zewt> | also horrifying fact of my week: ios safari (seemingly randomly) caches xhr POSTs : | |
| 23:08 | <Yuhong> | And on document.all, it is unfortunate that DOM1 became a REC just as Netscape "Mariner" was being cancelled. |
| 23:09 | <Hixie> | jsbell: thanks |
| 23:09 | <Hixie> | jsbell: i guess i'll go with that, it's better than nothing! |
| 23:09 | <jsbell> | worth what you paid for it. |
| 23:10 | <Hixie> | :-) |
| 23:10 | <Yuhong> | Which caused IE to gain market share. |
| 23:12 | <Yuhong> | To the point where other browsers had to implement document.all |
| 23:13 | <Yuhong> | And leaving no browser that supports both document.layers and document.getElementById. |