| 00:00 | <Hixie> | if they want to disagree, they should at least show studies explaining why they think this one is wrong |
| 00:02 | <zewt> | i'm not a fan of the "if you want XXX then show studies" (in either direction) argument, but "our lawyers tell us we have to have this feature, so stop arguing with me and just do it without any evidence" needs to stop |
| 00:02 | <Hixie> | oh i'm not saying "if you want XXX then show studies", I'm saying that if one side has shown studies (as nessy did in this case, though it supported the no-rollup side, not the rollup side) then the other side needs to at least address it. |
| 00:03 | <zewt> | sure, "give an argument of why this study is wrong", just not "show a study explaining" :) |
| 00:03 | <Hixie> | fair cop |
| 00:03 | <Hixie> | pretty sure in this case the only counter argument would be more data showing this data is questionable |
| 00:04 | <zewt> | if a realistic number of users would seriously prefer roll-up (irrespective of whether it's better or worse for them) i think that would be compelling, but that's hard to demonstrate (and simply asking people is probably completely useless) |
| 00:05 | <Hixie> | yeah asking people what they want is surprisingly useless |
| 00:05 | <Hixie> | it's amazing to watch people be given what they want and have them say "oh no, that's terrible" |
| 00:05 | <zewt> | since probably the vast majority of people just don't know, so you probably end up with 50/50 |
| 00:05 | <Hixie> | and vice versa (give them something else and having them say "wow that's perfect") |
| 00:05 | <Hixie> | yeah |
| 00:06 | <Hixie> | i've watched a lot of usability studies where the subject says things that directly contradict what they're actually doing |
| 00:06 | <Hixie> | it's fascinating to watch |
| 00:06 | <Hixie> | (and incredibly frustrating when it's your product that they're testing) |
| 00:07 | <zewt> | heh and this pretty much confirms the 50/50 theory conclusively in my mind: "half the users in that analysis said that they prefer the roll-up display style" |
| 00:07 | <Hixie> | yeah, compare the poll results to the eye tracking part of the study |
| 00:07 | <Hixie> | it's fascinating |
| 00:07 | <zewt> | congrats, you just ran a coin tossing survey |
| 00:12 | <Hixie> | i'd hate to hear your opinions about US elections then ;-) |
| 00:15 | <tantek> | Hixie, indeed, especially in Florida: http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/news/state-regional-govt-politics/early-voting-curbs-called-power-play/nTFDy/ |
| 00:15 | <Hixie> | wow they're actually admitting it now? |
| 00:16 | <tantek> | indeed |
| 00:16 | <Hixie> | (though that wasn't what i meant re zewt's comment -- i meant just that they're near 50:50, so by his argument, it's just a coin toss and we shouldn't bother :-) ) |
| 00:24 | <dbaron> | they've been admitting it for a while |
| 00:25 | <dbaron> | http://www.economist.com/node/21558603 |
| 00:25 | <dbaron> | "The House majority leader in Pennsylvania, where a voter-ID law went into effect in March, crowed in June that the new law “is going to allow Governor Romney to win the state of Pennsylvania.”" |
| 00:27 | <tantek> | and today a bunch of GOP voted against the disability treaty: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/05/us/despite-doles-wish-gop-rejects-disabilities-treaty.html (despite a visit by former Republican leader Dole, in his wheelchair). |
| 00:28 | <tantek> | seems awfully short-sighted (no pun intended) in terms of their own self-interest, won't most of those that voted against it be aging and disabled soon enough? |
| 04:25 | <MikeSmith> | Hixie: congratulations on 9 years |
| 04:25 | <Hixie> | nine years of what? |
| 04:25 | <Hixie> | oh hey, it's nine years |
| 04:25 | <MikeSmith> | yeah man |
| 04:25 | <Hixie> | i totally hadn't noticed |
| 04:25 | <Hixie> | thanks :-) |
| 04:25 | <MikeSmith> | thanks mattur |
| 04:25 | <MikeSmith> | *thank mattur |
| 04:25 | <MikeSmith> | for the reminder |
| 04:26 | <MikeSmith> | lotta years |
| 04:26 | <Hixie> | man what a ride |
| 04:27 | <MikeSmith> | here's to 9 more! |
| 04:27 | <Hixie> | more than 9 years actually, http://www.hixie.ch/specs/html/forms/hfp.html is from september :-) |
| 04:27 | <MikeSmith> | hey 9 more will bring us almost right up to your 2022 goal |
| 04:27 | <Hixie> | yup |
| 04:27 | <Hixie> | in september this year i was on track to getting to CR by 2012, too |
| 04:27 | <Hixie> | (as in, zero bugs zero e-mails) |
| 04:27 | <Hixie> | looks like i may miss that by a few weeks though |
| 04:28 | <Hixie> | had a cold a few weeks ago that totally threw me off track |
| 04:28 | <Hixie> | and then some other stuff came up the week after |
| 04:29 | <MikeSmith> | well, get on it man |
| 04:29 | <Hixie> | trying! :-P |
| 04:29 | <MikeSmith> | fix the bugs I submitted first! |
| 04:30 | <Hixie> | i'm more behind on e-mails |
| 04:30 | <MikeSmith> | hey I guess I had the 2003-09 date on http://platform.html5.org/history/ after all |
| 04:30 | <Hixie> | i could always take a page from the htmlwg, and any bugs i don't have fixed by dec 31 just get marked LATER :-P |
| 04:31 | <MikeSmith> | hah |
| 04:31 | <MikeSmith> | see, you can learn something positive from the htmlwg after all! |
| 04:31 | <Hixie> | yeah, that's what that would be :-P |
| 04:31 | <MikeSmith> | :D |
| 05:40 | <Hixie> | MikeSmith: i fixed one of your three bugs. the other two are outline algorithm bugs and i'm too tired to think about that algorithm right now :-) |
| 05:40 | <MikeSmith> | heh |
| 05:41 | <MikeSmith> | I know that feeling! |
| 05:41 | <Hixie> | i dunno why it's so hard to define the outline |
| 05:41 | <Hixie> | intuitively i think there has to be a clearer way to do it |
| 05:41 | <Hixie> | but every time i've tried it's ended up at least as bad as what the spec has |
| 05:41 | <MikeSmith> | well, I have a working implementation of it now, in the validator code |
| 05:42 | <MikeSmith> | but still I empathize with the person who has to try to implement if from the spec |
| 05:42 | <MikeSmith> | the next person |
| 05:42 | <Hixie> | yeah me too |
| 05:42 | <Hixie> | that's not my best work by far |
| 05:43 | <MikeSmith> | I think it's mostly great as-is |
| 05:43 | <MikeSmith> | really the only problems I have with it are those two things I filed bugs about |
| 05:43 | <Hixie> | it's not "great", but i don't know how to make it better (other than minor things like your bugs) |
| 05:43 | <MikeSmith> | yeah |
| 05:44 | <MikeSmith> | anyway, thanks for fixing those datetime examples |
| 05:44 | <MikeSmith> | also thanks for integrating Fullscreen (even though that's not one of mine -- happy to see it go in) |
| 05:45 | <Hixie> | it was just the next thing on the list |
| 05:45 | <Hixie> | it was the next thing on the list before, but then the comcast guy commented on th ebug which sent it to the bottom of the list agani :-) |
| 05:47 | <Hixie> | nessy! yt? |
| 05:48 | <nessy> | hi, yes :-) |
| 05:48 | <Hixie> | woot, been trying to catch you for days :-) |
| 05:48 | <Hixie> | had a question, one sec |
| 05:48 | <nessy> | ha, sorry |
| 05:49 | <Hixie> | it's about the patches and the github branch |
| 05:49 | <Hixie> | so it looks like r7529 is in |
| 05:49 | <nessy> | the whatwg patches that I pull into the W3C spec? |
| 05:49 | <Hixie> | but that r7528 isn't |
| 05:49 | <Hixie> | and i was wondering if i'm just misreading it, or if it's intentional, or what |
| 05:50 | <Hixie> | and if the latter, if it was documented anywhere which patches were in and which weren't |
| 05:50 | <nessy> | let me check |
| 05:51 | <nessy> | 7528 is staged in the editorial_fixes branch |
| 05:51 | <nessy> | you've seen the picture at https://github.com/w3c/html ? |
| 05:52 | <Hixie> | yeah that just confused me more |
| 05:52 | <Hixie> | so does that mean it goes in next week then? |
| 05:52 | <Hixie> | (what does "editorial" mean in this context?) |
| 05:52 | <nessy> | the editorial_fixes branch is there to feed both, HTML5.0 and the upcoming HTML5.1 WD |
| 05:54 | <nessy> | "editorial" means bug fixes (for bugs that apply to HTML5.0) and typos |
| 05:54 | <Hixie> | ah ok |
| 05:54 | <nessy> | I should probably apply those directly to HTML5.1 |
| 05:55 | <Hixie> | (fwiw, that's the opposite of the meaning of the term in common usage) |
| 05:55 | <nessy> | cause I apply the others to master immediately |
| 05:55 | <Hixie> | ("editorial" normally means "things that don't affect the normative meaning") |
| 05:55 | <nessy> | yeah, that's the typos |
| 05:55 | <nessy> | but we have to feed the bug fixes in somehow, too, so they go with those |
| 05:55 | <Hixie> | ah k |
| 05:55 | <nessy> | eventually there shouldn't be any more bug fixes to HTML5.0, that's why it got that name |
| 05:56 | <nessy> | it's a bit misleading right now |
| 05:56 | <Hixie> | yeah i don't understand how that will ever happen, but that's another story |
| 05:56 | <Hixie> | anyway, ok, thanks |
| 05:56 | <nessy> | and yes, it goes in "next week" (which should have been yesterday...) |
| 05:56 | <nessy> | I'm a bit behind - you've been a busy bee :-) |
| 05:57 | <Hixie> | heh, i was just complaining to mike that i've been slacking :-) |
| 05:57 | <nessy> | I'm behind by about 2 weeks! |
| 05:58 | <nessy> | when 7530 hit me, I took a break ;-) |
| 05:58 | <Hixie> | heh yeah, sorry about that |
| 05:58 | <Hixie> | there's a few more of those coming |
| 05:59 | <nessy> | are you removing markers? |
| 05:59 | <Hixie> | trying to get the spec into the new 100-character width so i can actually use my monitor |
| 05:59 | <nessy> | I thought there was a new monitor involved … re-formatting the width seemed strange |
| 05:59 | <Hixie> | the 72 character limit was becoming ridiculous, i have a 27" monitor |
| 06:00 | <nessy> | you're also removing some markers with the reformatting - are there any I need to care about (other than w3c-html)? |
| 06:00 | <nessy> | e.g. "VERSION" |
| 06:00 | <Hixie> | that's just a comment, not special at all |
| 06:00 | <Hixie> | most of the all-caps words in the spec are just there so i can search for things quickly |
| 06:00 | <Hixie> | e.g. REFS or ACKS |
| 06:00 | <Hixie> | or FORK |
| 06:01 | <nessy> | yeah, I suppose I need to leave the postmsg, websocket-api, etc in |
| 06:01 | <Hixie> | you probably don't need those |
| 06:01 | <Hixie> | they're for the webapps specs |
| 06:01 | <Hixie> | there's also some old ones in there that i've been cleaning out, like whatwg-workers |
| 06:01 | <Hixie> | from years ago |
| 06:02 | <nessy> | MD is also only for search, right ? cause microdata is the one that delimits the spec |
| 06:02 | <Hixie> | yeah |
| 06:02 | <nessy> | ok, cool |
| 06:03 | <nessy> | so I'm probably ok with just microdata, w3c-html, 2dcontext (and complete, dev-html) |
| 06:03 | <Hixie> | you can probably drop those last two too |
| 06:04 | <nessy> | doesn't hurt to leave those in sync with yours |
| 06:04 | <nessy> | I came across html-device the other day - that can really go, right? |
| 06:05 | <nessy> | I even tried to list them in https://github.com/w3c/html/blob/master/markers.md (you'll find that amusing for sure) |
| 06:07 | <nessy> | oh, and I noticed you should update http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/FAQ#What_are_the_various_versions_of_the_spec.3F - there are a few missing like WebVTT |
| 06:10 | <Hixie> | html-device is aaaancient, yeah |
| 06:11 | <Hixie> | webvtt is intentionally not in that list since whatwg doesn't currently publish it at all |
| 06:15 | <nessy> | ah I see |
| 06:15 | <nessy> | right, it's part of the whatwg html spec - forgot |
| 06:16 | <nessy> | though your list includes references between sections and W3C specs |
| 06:16 | <MikeSmith> | annevk: https://twitter.com/cgiffard/status/276196845187895296 "Does anybody know of a service that can validate CORS headers? Mine fail intermittently in Chrome. It's driving me nuts." |
| 06:19 | <Hixie> | nessy: it's not in the whatwg html spec |
| 06:23 | <nessy> | ah! right. |
| 06:46 | <kennyluck> | What's the history of testharness.js before https://github.com/jgraham/testharness.js/commits/master?page=2 ? Was it under cvs.w3.org or something? |
| 07:05 | <niloy> | for session storage, if a user does right click and open in new tab, the existing session variables should get copied to the new tab, right? |
| 07:23 | <hsivonen> | annevk: was your “o_O” about the polyglot comment thread on Sam’s blog about what Sam said, what I said or in general? |
| 07:39 | <odinho> | kennyluck: I heard it was developed on the internal svn testsuites system of Opera, but then he said "no, it was really all on my laptop". |
| 07:40 | <kennyluck> | odinho, oh, ok. Thanks. |
| 07:54 | <odinho> | kennyluck: At least, our first record of testharness.js is 872 days ago, by jgraham, called "sync". The next few updates are from annevk :P |
| 07:55 | <odinho> | No, it's called "inital work on W3C test harness", 872 days, 20h ago. I didn't go far enough back on that day. :] |
| 07:55 | <kennyluck> | odinho, 872 days :) Was that record in the svn repository you mentioned? |
| 07:55 | <odinho> | kennyluck: Yep. |
| 07:55 | <kennyluck> | heh |
| 07:59 | <odinho> | The API in the initial version was test(), async_test() and on_event() globally, as well as the tests assert.exists() assert.true(), assert.equals(), assert.not_exists(), assert.readonly(), assert.unreached(). |
| 08:12 | <hsivonen> | can someone remind me what the two WGs were that merged into WebApps? |
| 08:12 | <Ms2ger> | WebAPI was one, I guess |
| 08:13 | <hsivonen> | and the other one was WAF |
| 08:13 | <hsivonen> | Web Application Formats |
| 08:15 | <a-ja> | any browsers supporting :scoped yet? |
| 08:16 | <Ms2ger> | I've seen patches for Gecko which should land reasonably seem |
| 08:16 | a-ja | asks cuz he noticed :-moz-scoped just landed |
| 08:18 | <odinho> | hsivonen: Hey. A friend of mine looking for a good html5 parser, I showed him the validator.nu one -- but how well does the c++-translation work now? Is it good to go? |
| 08:18 | <odinho> | hsivonen: Or is Geckos parser better to rip out? (if it's reasonably self contained?) |
| 08:18 | <Ms2ger> | We prefixed? Bah |
| 08:18 | <Ms2ger> | odinho, same parser :) |
| 08:19 | <odinho> | Ms2ger: So the java->cpp is still going on and strong? |
| 08:19 | <Ms2ger> | Yep |
| 08:19 | <a-ja> | Ms2ger: on m-i anyway |
| 08:19 | <odinho> | No extra fastness-fixes etc? Ahh, okay, that's good. :D |
| 08:19 | <MikeSmith> | odinho: there's also Hubbub http://www.netsurf-browser.org/projects/hubbub/ |
| 08:20 | <odinho> | MikeSmith: Yeah, but that one was bad. |
| 08:20 | <MikeSmith> | odinho: I don't think the C++ version of validator.nu parser is portable yet outside of the mozilla context |
| 08:20 | <MikeSmith> | odinho: what's bad about it? |
| 08:21 | <MikeSmith> | a-ja: heycam|away working on scoped |
| 08:21 | <MikeSmith> | I thought Chrome has scoped too |
| 08:21 | <odinho> | MikeSmith: Don't know, -- broke too many sites I think, and something about API and something else. He had tried it, but let it go. |
| 08:21 | <MikeSmith> | ok |
| 08:23 | Ms2ger | sends hsivonen in to bug 648722 to complain about the prefix |
| 08:24 | <odinho> | OMFG prefix :( |
| 08:25 | <odinho> | Ms2ger: Good, send in them torpedos. |
| 08:26 | <a-ja> | tks folks....fodder for some testing later on this wk |
| 09:25 | <zcorpan> | a-ja: isn't it called :scope ? |
| 09:28 | <Ms2ger> | zcorpan, nope |
| 09:29 | <a-ja> | zcorpan: not sure...haven't tested. was just going by bug title |
| 09:30 | <zcorpan> | Ms2ger: http://dev.w3.org/csswg/selectors4/#the-scope-pseudo ? |
| 09:30 | <Ms2ger> | zcorpan, ah, yes, I meant it's implemented as -moz-scope |
| 09:31 | <zcorpan> | ok |
| 09:31 | <a-ja> | yeah....:-moz-scope is all over the patch that landed |
| 09:32 | <odinho> | so it's like a -sniper-scope, only with more moz. |
| 09:34 | <annevk> | hsivonen: Sam |
| 09:38 | <zcorpan> | data:text/plain;foo="bar,baz";charset=utf8,body is an interesting case |
| 09:38 | <zcorpan> | opera gives an error |
| 09:39 | <annevk> | MikeSmith: don't know such a service |
| 09:39 | <MikeSmith> | ok |
| 09:41 | <odinho> | darobin, MikeSmith: Getting questions about the options-thingy on w3c-test. Did anyone ever find out anything about it? :-) |
| 09:41 | <odinho> | MikeSmith: Also, is w3c-test.org geodistributed? |
| 09:41 | <darobin> | odinho: I went as far as figuring out that a stock apache out of the box does not exhibit the problem |
| 09:42 | <MikeSmith> | that's farther than I went |
| 09:42 | <darobin> | so it's now a matter of divide and conquering to find where the problem comes from I reckon.... |
| 09:42 | <odinho> | The CORS-tests I have is latency-dependent, when karlcow tried them in Japan they failed, I guess that is because Japan is far far away from my server at home. :P |
| 09:42 | <darobin> | heh |
| 09:42 | <MikeSmith> | odinho: w3c-test is one single humble machine |
| 09:42 | <MikeSmith> | at MIT I think |
| 09:42 | <odinho> | MikeSmith: So it'll have the same problem :-) Where is it? |
| 09:42 | <odinho> | Okay. |
| 09:43 | <odinho> | It works from here though... So Norway-MIT should be okay. |
| 09:44 | <odinho> | darobin: That's cool. :-) Definately something I can say and look like I did a lot of work on it ;-) |
| 09:48 | <hsivonen> | Is there a limitation of up to one TAG participant per Member? Where is that documented? |
| 09:51 | <darobin> | hsivonen: yes there is, and yes it is (in the Process I believe) |
| 09:52 | <darobin> | currently, it's a tight race |
| 09:52 | <hsivonen> | darobin: I don’t see it in the Process |
| 09:53 | <hsivonen> | IIRC, there was a merger case that made two AB members be employees of on W3C Member and one of them stepped down. |
| 09:53 | <hsivonen> | but I can’t find Process grounds for that, either |
| 09:54 | <darobin> | I'm in the process of rebooting firefox, I'll tell you when it's back |
| 10:04 | <darobin> | hsivonen: http://www.w3.org/2005/10/Process-20051014/process.html#AB-TAG-constraints |
| 10:05 | <icaaq> | Let say i have a download link for a app with a specific languagepack, would it be appropriate to specify the language in the hreflang attribute on the download link? I know it's not commonly used/implemented. I'm mostly just thinking out load http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/links.html#attr-hyperlink-hreflang |
| 10:07 | <hsivonen> | darobin: thank you |
| 10:15 | <annevk> | Does ECMAScript use properties that can be set? For some reason I'm drawing a blank |
| 10:17 | <annevk> | I wonder when https://www.w3.org/2012/12/03-tag-nominations is going to be public. I still don't quite know what's going on |
| 10:18 | <annevk> | Running for TAG without Member access is extremely non-transparent |
| 10:24 | <kennyluck> | annevk, are you sure they are not going to make you sign the Invited Expert agreement if you really get elected? |
| 10:24 | <annevk> | kennyluck: you have to agree to sign it to become nominated |
| 10:25 | <kennyluck> | annevk, oh ok. That's a news to me (that you signed the agreement). |
| 10:26 | <annevk> | It's not a big deal, I'm just not going to join any WGs (other than the TAG) and contribute content to them. |
| 10:30 | <Stevef_> | annevk: how many seats are up for grabs? |
| 10:31 | <annevk> | Stevef_: four I'm told, but it's a secret |
| 10:32 | <annevk> | actually, maybe that can be derived from public information |
| 10:33 | <Stevef_> | so you have a 50/50 chance :-) |
| 10:33 | <Stevef_> | you'd get my vote if I had one |
| 10:33 | <annevk> | Stevef_: if people vote randomly :-) |
| 10:34 | <SimonSapin> | I’ll share the big secret that we are voting for four seats |
| 10:34 | <annevk> | (but since the majority of companies is prolly US-based, that might be the case) |
| 10:35 | <SimonSapin> | so annevk, what do you plan to do if elected? :p |
| 10:35 | <annevk> | SimonSapin: figure out how we can get the group to talk about architecture again? |
| 10:36 | <annevk> | that is, instead of Linked Data semantic debate, have web technology architecture debate |
| 10:36 | <SimonSapin> | what is web technology architecture? |
| 10:37 | <annevk> | it's weird :-) |
| 10:42 | <annevk> | what I'd be interested in looking at is sort of a high-level overview of what's being created, what the various issues are we're running into regularly, and if there's a way we do better |
| 10:43 | <annevk> | it seems like something that's worthwhile to brainstorm about now and then |
| 10:46 | <SimonSapin> | ok |
| 10:48 | <annevk> | darobin: we need an election hashtag |
| 10:48 | <SimonSapin> | also, each member gets to vote for up to 4 candidates. I don’t know (or care) if that’s supposed to be public |
| 10:48 | <darobin> | #tag? |
| 10:49 | <annevk> | #tag2013 ? :-) |
| 10:49 | <darobin> | yeah that works too |
| 10:49 | <darobin> | #FourHorsemen |
| 10:50 | <annevk> | heh |
| 10:59 | <zcorpan> | icaaq: that seems OK, but also pretty useless except as a styling hook for yourself |
| 10:59 | <icaaq> | zcorpan: yes |
| 11:01 | <icaaq> | zcorpan: and "maybe" SEO http://support.google.com/webmasters/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=189077 |
| 11:03 | <zcorpan> | icaaq: is the app a translation of the page? |
| 11:04 | <icaaq> | zcorpan: no, i was thinking of maybe a localized version of a browser |
| 11:27 | <annevk> | I like how simple GitHub.app makes reverting stuff |
| 11:32 | <SimonSapin> | uh, apparently the culprit for RFC 2397 is running for TAG |
| 11:34 | <MikeSmith> | SimonSapin: he's already on the TAG :) |
| 11:35 | <SimonSapin> | I’m no sure how much I can blame him for not defining error handling 14 years ago |
| 13:09 | <jgraham> | SimonSapin: Well, if we kick out all the people that didn't define error handing in the past, I suggest starting with those responsible for RFC 1945 |
| 13:11 | <SimonSapin> | jgraham: I’m considering who to give one vote to or not. I didn’t say anything about kicking anybody out. |
| 13:16 | <darobin> | SimonSapin: I reckon you could vote for the Four Horsemen ticket |
| 13:16 | <SimonSapin> | Four Horsemen? |
| 13:18 | <annevk> | marcosc, wycats_, slightlyoff, and I, I think |
| 13:19 | <hsivonen> | darobin: I think https://www.w3.org/2012/12/03-tag-nominations is missing some asterisks |
| 13:19 | <darobin> | what annevk said |
| 13:22 | <darobin> | hsivonen: indeed, reported |
| 13:23 | <hsivonen> | darobin: thanks |
| 13:23 | <marcosc> | darobin: when do the elections end? |
| 13:23 | <darobin> | late Dec, early Jan IIRC |
| 13:24 | <SimonSapin> | 9 january |
| 13:25 | <marcosc> | thanks SimonSapin |
| 13:28 | <darobin> | I recommend candidates start campaigning now |
| 13:29 | <darobin> | wycats_: you up? |
| 13:33 | <annevk> | darobin: tweeted |
| 13:33 | <annevk> | darobin: not inspired yet for that longer email |
| 13:33 | <darobin> | annevk: whenever you're ready |
| 13:33 | <darobin> | but don't wait too long! |
| 13:36 | <SimonSapin> | darobin: it’s slightly weird that the "success" message when submitting a WBS form is red |
| 13:37 | <darobin> | SimonSapin: I'll pass that along |
| 13:37 | <SimonSapin> | no big deal |
| 13:37 | <darobin> | yeah, but easy fix |
| 13:37 | <darobin> | I'll leave it in the systeam's capable hands |
| 14:18 | hsivonen | finds https://twitter.com/antimattur |
| 14:26 | zcorpan | expected to find something amusing but was disappointed |
| 14:28 | <annevk> | zcorpan: are you referring to the status code he included in his status? |
| 14:28 | <annevk> | or she, I suppose |
| 14:29 | <zcorpan> | annevk: no the tweets |
| 14:29 | annevk | was trying to make a meta joke |
| 14:35 | Ms2ger | wonders if the list of TAG candidates and their affiliations are public |
| 14:35 | <zcorpan> | "Although some interpretations differ, in most accounts, the four riders are seen as symbolizing Conquest,[1] War,[2] Famine,[3] and Death, respectively." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Horsemen_of_the_Apocalypse |
| 14:35 | <zcorpan> | now, identify yourselves |
| 14:35 | <zcorpan> | or, what's your favorite color? |
| 14:36 | <annevk> | In other news, reading @mattur's feed I found https://twitter.com/tehu/status/272985237129158656 |
| 14:36 | <annevk> | which is rather interesting |
| 14:37 | <zcorpan> | i seem to recall annevk's favorite color is papayawhip. hence pale, and Death. |
| 14:39 | <annevk> | I'll anoint you as campaign manager |
| 14:40 | <Ms2ger> | Can we donate to your campaign? :) |
| 14:41 | <annevk> | What's your favorite color? Papayawhip. What's your quest? To serve on the TAG. What's the average airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow? An African or European swallow? |
| 14:41 | <annevk> | aaaaaahh |
| 14:43 | <Ms2ger> | Poor TimBL |
| 14:43 | <annevk> | Ms2ger: please turn any monetary contributions into patches: https://github.com/whatwg |
| 14:43 | <Ms2ger> | Any patches you'd like to see? :) |
| 14:44 | <annevk> | cross-boundary events? :) |
| 14:44 | <Ms2ger> | I don't want you on the TAG quite *that* badly |
| 14:47 | <zcorpan> | Ms2ger: you can just transfer your money straight to my bank account. |
| 14:47 | <Ms2ger> | zcorpan, alright, I'll need your credit card number and its expiration date to do that |
| 14:48 | <zcorpan> | sure, lemme take a picture and tweet it. |
| 14:48 | <odinho> | Maybe TAG can make sugarapi a reality? :] |
| 15:00 | <darobin> | no no, Ms2ger give your money to me so I can make attack ads! |
| 15:00 | <darobin> | annevk: I think Standards Suck should run an endorsement campaign |
| 15:01 | <annevk> | oh yeah, that's gonna go over real well with the AC :) |
| 15:01 | <darobin> | annevk: every little bit helps! |
| 15:02 | <annevk> | https://twitter.com/annevk/status/276340860302524416 |
| 15:04 | <darobin> | ooooh, putting an untested script straight into production and breaking everything — I'm a funny guy! |
| 15:17 | <SimonSapin> | annevk: indeed, this requires a Standard Suck video |
| 15:19 | <SimonSapin> | annevk: bonus points if you’re interviewing yourself |
| 15:43 | <gsnedders> | annevk: Post it as a badly compressed video in a standard format. Because standards sucks. |
| 15:52 | <SimonSapin> | annevk: I’m not sure what you meant by "Please direct any media queries" |
| 15:53 | <darobin> | bonus points for using a DRM standard |
| 16:12 | <marcosc> | annevk: I'm down to make a video |
| 16:19 | <darobin> | marcosc: you really should |
| 16:19 | <darobin> | with unicorns |
| 16:21 | <marcosc> | I still have the video of you dancing around tpac. We could make some kind of composite |
| 16:21 | <marcosc> | Us talking about the TAG with you and Lachy dancing in the bg |
| 16:21 | <marcosc> | that would be awesome |
| 16:22 | <annevk> | SimonSapin: it's a pun |
| 16:22 | <Ms2ger> | annevk, not a very good one, sorry |
| 16:28 | darobin | approves of annevk's pun |
| 16:28 | <darobin> | marcosc: that sounds okay, but I prefer unicorns |
| 16:30 | <annevk> | Ms2ger: still waiting for your content on twitter ;) |
| 16:30 | <Ms2ger> | Pff |
| 16:31 | <Ms2ger> | I'm pretty content without twitter |
| 16:31 | <annevk> | darobin: http://html5.org/temp/unicorn.svg |
| 16:31 | tantek | checks ms2ger.com |
| 16:31 | <annevk> | darobin: my long term goal is to get that in browsers as about:unicorn |
| 16:32 | <darobin> | I support that goal |
| 16:32 | <darobin> | though as stated before, I think that about:dahut would also be worthy of inclusion |
| 16:33 | <Ms2ger> | tantek, I'm not a commercial organisation ;) |
| 16:33 | <annevk> | darobin: is there an SVG for it? |
| 16:33 | <annevk> | Ms2ger: y no ms2ger.be? |
| 16:34 | <darobin> | annevk: mmmm, that's a good question |
| 16:35 | <darobin> | an ancient one, not so pretty http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fichier:Meuble_H%C3%A9raldique_Dahu.svg |
| 16:35 | <Ms2ger> | annevk, I need to figure out who runs domain names in Eritrea... |
| 16:35 | <darobin> | the first his is https://github.com/darobin/couchdb-deploy/blob/master/t/dahut.svg, which isn't all that useful |
| 16:36 | <annevk> | I have that too now and then. Searching for something, only result is you ranting about there not being anything... |
| 16:37 | <annevk> | s/you/me/ too |
| 16:40 | <GPHemsley> | zcorpan, SimonSapin: Interesting behavior with that data:text/plain;foo="bar,baz";charset=utf8,body |
| 16:44 | <SimonSapin> | GPHemsley: it’s almost interoperable (Opera shows an error) |
| 16:44 | <SimonSapin> | but yeah, I expected this |
| 16:44 | <GPHemsley> | SimonSapin: Yeah, but interoperably *bad* |
| 16:45 | <SimonSapin> | GPHemsley: apart from charset, what MIME parameters are actually used on the web? |
| 16:45 | <GPHemsley> | I feel like I answered this before |
| 16:45 | <SimonSapin> | I was told some audio/video containers have other parameters |
| 16:45 | <SimonSapin> | yes |
| 16:45 | <GPHemsley> | but codecs, etc. |
| 16:45 | <SimonSapin> | do these ever contain a comma? |
| 16:45 | <GPHemsley> | absolutely |
| 16:45 | <SimonSapin> | oh |
| 16:46 | <SimonSapin> | it’s bad indeed |
| 16:46 | <GPHemsley> | turns out the MIME type parsing algorithm is more important than I thought :P |
| 16:46 | <SimonSapin> | but it sucks to have to parse quoted strings to know where the body starts |
| 16:46 | <marcosc> | ok, is public: https://www.w3.org/2012/12/03-tag-nominations |
| 16:47 | <GPHemsley> | SimonSapin: http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4281 |
| 16:47 | <SimonSapin> | GPHemsley: data:text/plain;foo="bar%2Cbaz";charset=utf8,body |
| 16:48 | <GPHemsley> | SimonSapin: Oh, right. I keep forgetting about percent-encoding. |
| 16:48 | <GPHemsley> | But still, it's like you fix one issue, and another pops up |
| 16:48 | <GPHemsley> | (like that issue with percent-encoding the semicolon) |
| 16:49 | <SimonSapin> | but actually they were all already there, staring at you, waiting for you to discover them :p |
| 16:49 | <GPHemsley> | I suppose |
| 16:49 | <GPHemsley> | any idea what IE does to these? |
| 16:49 | <GPHemsley> | s/to/with/ |
| 16:49 | <SimonSapin> | I’m fine with a rule like "any comma in the header has to be percent-encoded" |
| 16:50 | <SimonSapin> | I don’t have IE right now |
| 16:51 | <SimonSapin> | Microsoft has some VMs available for IE 6~9, but I don’t know about 10 |
| 16:51 | <GPHemsley> | Who's got IE and wants to test a bunch of data: URLs? :) |
| 16:52 | <SimonSapin> | GPHemsley: let’s perhaps write down a test suite, and then find people to run it? |
| 16:52 | <GPHemsley> | that works too :) |
| 16:52 | <SimonSapin> | I started something with testharness.js and XHR, but Chromium refuses to do XHR on data:, pretending it is cross-origin |
| 16:53 | <GPHemsley> | Simple <a> won't work? |
| 16:54 | <SimonSapin> | how do you get the parsed header/body from JS with <a>? |
| 16:54 | <SimonSapin> | or at least the body |
| 16:54 | <GPHemsley> | oh, well, I thought this was for human consumption |
| 16:55 | <GPHemsley> | but ok |
| 16:57 | <SimonSapin> | GPHemsley: I like tests to be automatic, but maybe |
| 16:58 | SimonSapin | off for the css conf call |
| 17:02 | <jdaggett> | yes, it's me |
| 17:02 | <jdaggett> | (now muted) |
| 17:02 | <SimonSapin> | jdaggett: wrong channel? |
| 17:02 | <jdaggett> | zakim, ?p82 is me |
| 17:03 | <jdaggett> | argh, thanks... |
| 17:03 | <SimonSapin> | :) |
| 17:27 | <annevk> | dglazkov: yt? |
| 17:40 | <Ms2ger> | CSSWG: still not sure about case-insensitivity |
| 17:42 | <SimonSapin> | several people in the group are sure, but don’t agree |
| 17:48 | <annevk> | ASCII case-insensitive |
| 17:48 | <annevk> | it's not that hard |
| 17:48 | <SimonSapin> | annevk: some people say the same for unicode case folding |
| 17:48 | <Ms2ger> | Some people even think you're right |
| 17:48 | <annevk> | that's what the HTML parser does, and all this should follow from that, imo |
| 17:49 | <annevk> | SimonSapin: basically it's all case-sensitive, except for a few historical mistakes |
| 17:51 | <tantek> | Norwegian vs. French, can we get a chef comparison? (Swedish chef close enough?) |
| 17:57 | <SimonSapin> | http://www.inter-locale.com/test/css-case-sensitive-test.html multiple implementations make classes unicode case-insensitive |
| 17:59 | <annevk> | in quirks mode? |
| 17:59 | <SimonSapin> | not sure |
| 17:59 | <annevk> | pretty sure classes are case-sensitive |
| 18:00 | <Ms2ger> | Not in quirks |
| 18:01 | <annevk> | right |
| 18:49 | <annevk> | http://davetroy.com/posts/the-real-republican-adversary-population-density is interesting |
| 19:27 | <tantek> | great find annevk - that is fascinating |
| 19:28 | <annevk> | I can't take credit, I follow dbaron on Twitter, who RT'ed Asa Dotzler, who shared the link :) |
| 19:38 | <dbaron> | I RT'ed somebody else RT'ing Asa, really |
| 19:38 | <dbaron> | I think it was Jesse. |
| 19:42 | <Ms2ger> | Looks like http://www.w3.org/2012/12/03-tag-nominations is public now |
| 19:42 | <Ms2ger> | I'm surprised to see that Glenn Adams claims to be unaffiliated, since he also claims to represent Cox |
| 19:49 | <SimonSapin> | Ms2ger: represent or just nominated by? |
| 19:51 | <GPHemsley> | ugh RFC 2231 |
| 19:51 | <Ms2ger> | SimonSapin, as in https://www.w3.org/2000/09/dbwg/details?group=42538&public=1 |
| 19:52 | <SimonSapin> | I see |
| 19:52 | <SimonSapin> | GPHemsley: I’m glad you’re doing that :) |
| 19:57 | <GPHemsley> | SimonSapin: Heh. This algorithm is crazy. |
| 19:57 | <GPHemsley> | So many steps |
| 19:57 | <GPHemsley> | for something seemingly so intuitive |
| 19:57 | <SimonSapin> | GPHemsley: could we drop half of it and only keep the common cases? |
| 19:58 | <SimonSapin> | stuff like comments, line continuations, … |
| 19:58 | <GPHemsley> | SimonSapin: Well, my first draft, I think, is just going to cover the basics, ignoring any special characters unless absolutely necessary. |
| 20:01 | <GPHemsley> | So basically, anything between ; and = that isn't whitespace or = is a parameter name, and anything between = and ; that isn't " or ; is a parameter value |
| 20:01 | <GPHemsley> | and we'll take if from there |
| 20:01 | <GPHemsley> | though that admittedly completely ignores those RFC 822 comment things |
| 20:01 | <GPHemsley> | s/" or ;/whitespace or " or ;/ |
| 20:02 | <GPHemsley> | s/if/it/ |
| 20:02 | <SimonSapin> | I’m confident nobody uses comments in data: |
| 20:02 | <SimonSapin> | and only slightly less so in HTTP |
| 20:02 | <Ms2ger> | Ehehehehe |
| 20:02 | <GPHemsley> | agreed |
| 20:02 | <GPHemsley> | (with both of you, I suppose) |
| 20:03 | <SimonSapin> | let’s burn those who do |
| 20:03 | <GPHemsley> | fine by me |
| 20:03 | <GPHemsley> | :) |
| 20:04 | <SimonSapin> | but data only references the <attribute> and <value> production, so maybe even the RFC does not allow comments |
| 20:05 | <GPHemsley> | I would like to make it so that there is only one possible syntax for MIME type, if at all possible |
| 20:05 | <GPHemsley> | (which may mean willful violations here and there) |
| 20:06 | <SimonSapin> | only one possible? something like canonicalization? |
| 20:06 | <GPHemsley> | well, what I mean is, all MIME types, no matter where they are (data: URLs, Content-Type headers, etc.) get parsed the same |
| 20:06 | <GPHemsley> | canonicalization is another story |
| 20:07 | <GPHemsley> | as in, we'll work within the spirit of the RFCs, if not necessary the letter |
| 20:08 | <GPHemsley> | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letter_and_spirit_of_the_law |
| 20:09 | <GPHemsley> | s/necessary/necessarily. |
| 20:09 | <GPHemsley> | / |
| 20:09 | <GPHemsley> | grrrrr |
| 20:09 | <GPHemsley> | s/necessary/necessarily/ |
| 20:09 | <SimonSapin> | parsed the same, what about percent-encoding in data: ? |
| 20:10 | <GPHemsley> | well, you'd have to deal with that yourself :P |
| 20:10 | <GPHemsley> | but after percent-decoding |
| 20:11 | <GPHemsley> | percent-encoding is necessary to fit the MIME type into the syntax of the URL |
| 20:11 | <GPHemsley> | it's not inherent to the MIME type itself |
| 20:12 | <SimonSapin> | so: split at "," |
| 20:12 | <SimonSapin> | so: split at "," percent-decode and then parse as MIME? |
| 20:13 | <SimonSapin> | so %3B and ; would always be the same? |
| 20:14 | <SimonSapin> | I’d prefer this, but I can also imagine another interpretation where percent-decoding is only done on parameter values, after MIME parsing |
| 20:15 | <GPHemsley> | well, that |
| 20:16 | <GPHemsley> | well, that'll be up to you to determine, depending on relevant RFCs and implementations, but essentially, yes |
| 20:17 | <GPHemsley> | if it turns out that only the parameters are percent-encoding, that would be a bummer |
| 20:17 | <GPHemsley> | (though I know it's looking like that already) |
| 20:18 | <GPHemsley> | unless you split on "," and then split on first ";", percent-decode, and then put it all back together to parse as MIME |
| 20:18 | <GPHemsley> | that would make my life easier :) |
| 20:19 | <GPHemsley> | hmm... I wonder if it'd be alright to treat comments like percent-encoding |
| 20:19 | <GPHemsley> | such that it's protocol-specific and would need to be removed before percent-encoding |
| 20:19 | <GPHemsley> | hmm |
| 20:21 | <GPHemsley> | that way we can decouple the MIME type syntax from HTTP and, well, MIME |
| 20:31 | <annevk> | SimonSapin: GPHemsley: HTTP's usage of MIME is much more restricted, please stick to that |
| 20:31 | <GPHemsley> | annevk: Restricted how? |
| 20:31 | <annevk> | SimonSapin: GPHemsley: http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2616#section-3.7 |
| 20:31 | <GPHemsley> | annevk: What makes that restricted? |
| 20:32 | <annevk> | GPHemsley: there's no allowance for comments or any of that, just tokens |
| 20:32 | <annevk> | (and whitespace) |
| 20:32 | <SimonSapin> | data: does something similar |
| 20:32 | <GPHemsley> | annevk: I was under the impression that comments (like whitespace) were allowed implicitly |
| 20:33 | <GPHemsley> | annevk: But again, I was planning on leaving them out already, at least in the first draft. |
| 20:33 | <annevk> | In any event though, it seems better to reverse engineer this from implementations and look at the actual implementations for verification |
| 20:34 | <GPHemsley> | define "better" |
| 20:38 | <GPHemsley> | I think it's better to figure out what I think it should do, and then tweak it latest based on reverse-engineering to confirm. |
| 20:38 | <GPHemsley> | (Admitting, of course, that I haven't defined "better" either.) |
| 20:39 | <GPHemsley> | s/latest/later/ |
| 21:57 | <annevk> | Hixie: I meant the exception defined here: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#events-and-the-window-object |
| 22:25 | <Hixie> | annevk: yeah, that's the second one i mentioned |
| 22:27 | <annevk> | Hixie: was the first about body.onload and window.onload being the same? |
| 22:27 | <Hixie> | there's some weirdness about what the target should be on the load event |
| 22:27 | <Hixie> | see The End maybe? |
| 22:27 | <Hixie> | (i'm fine leaving it specced as is) |
| 22:29 | <annevk> | it's The End indeed, thanks |
| 22:29 | <annevk> | the way that is defined seems fine |
| 22:51 | <MikeSmith> | "Do people need to present defensible theses |
| 22:52 | <MikeSmith> | "Do people need to present defensible theses on every new addition to HTML to indicate that it's value is genuine?" |
| 22:53 | <MikeSmith> | http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2012Dec/0037.html |
| 22:53 | <MikeSmith> | "did anyone have to provide a defense for HTML's ability to separate paragraphs from each other?" |
| 22:53 | <Hixie> | ...why yes, yes they do |
| 22:54 | <MikeSmith> | he's convinced me that policy needs to change! |
| 22:55 | <MikeSmith> | from now on, no defensible thesis required! |
| 22:55 | <gsnedders> | Hixie: Add a sarcasm element. It's value is genuine. |
| 22:55 | <gsnedders> | *Its |
| 22:55 | <Hixie> | gsnedders: check the spec |
| 22:56 | <Hixie> | MikeSmith: that'd be a quick way to make the htmlwg spec obviously inferior to the whatwg one, so i'm on board ;-) |
| 22:56 | <gsnedders> | Hixie: All you have is an end tag. |
| 22:56 | <gsnedders> | I do know what the spec says. ;) |
| 22:56 | <MikeSmith> | we start with this dude's proposal, for the <sentence> element |
| 22:57 | <MikeSmith> | from now on, you mark up every single sentence in your documents with the <sentence> element |
| 22:58 | <annevk> | his homepage uses interesting markup for someone who wants to introduce new markup |
| 22:58 | <annevk> | -> http://hea-www.harvard.edu/~fine/ |
| 22:59 | <MikeSmith> | wow |
| 23:00 | <MikeSmith> | hey I like the part of that page that lets you send as many SMS messages to his mobile as you want, at no cost |
| 23:01 | <MikeSmith> | makes you wonder why more people don't just add something like that to their Web pages |
| 23:01 | <Hixie> | i think every space should have an element |
| 23:03 | <MikeSmith> | Hixie: good, now you're thinking semantically |
| 23:03 | <MikeSmith> | I think every lack of a space where there should have been one should have an element |
| 23:04 | <annevk> | Asian father meme? Element for every sentence? Why not for every character? |
| 23:05 | <MikeSmith> | annevk: you got the pedal to the metal man |
| 23:06 | <MikeSmith> | that's the kind of thinking that will earn you your rightful place on the TAG |
| 23:09 | <annevk> | MikeSmith: you might want to consider voting for the guy with five patents |
| 23:19 | <MikeSmith> | heh |
| 23:21 | <MikeSmith> | in other news, I seriously like the way the new co-chair of the Tracking Protection WG framed his request for comments |
| 23:22 | <MikeSmith> | http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-tracking/2012Nov/0338.html |
| 23:22 | <MikeSmith> | "We ask that you emphasize no more than 3 points and do your submission in no more than 300 words. (To help you be brief, we will prioritize in our reading the comments that comply with the limits.)" |
| 23:22 | <Hixie> | hey that's a good idea, i should do that |
| 23:23 | <Hixie> | "please only send me easy feedback" |
| 23:23 | <MikeSmith> | yeah, maybe doesn't fit for all cases, but still seems like a good way to encourage people to attempt to be concise |
| 23:24 | <Hixie> | honestly the verbosity of the feedback isn't that big a deal |
| 23:24 | <MikeSmith> | some people have a habit of doing the opposite and it's a chore to read through their messages and try to see what point they're trying to make |
| 23:24 | <Hixie> | though there are some extremes |
| 23:24 | <Hixie> | i'll grant you |
| 23:24 | <MikeSmith> | yeah |
