| 00:10 | <jsbell> | annevk: In DOM4, DOMError loses the |message| attribute that was specified in DOM3. (Unless I'm misreading which I probably am.) Was that intentional? |
| 00:11 | <jsbell> | I get the sense it's deferred to the individual specification to say "oh, and stick a message on it if you want to, whatever" |
| 00:12 | <jsbell> | SimonSapin: are you implementing the Encoding API for moz? |
| 00:12 | <jsbell> | if so, nifty. :) |
| 00:12 | <SimonSapin> | jsbell: why moz? |
| 00:13 | <jsbell> | I'm just guessing. |
| 00:13 | <SimonSapin> | I’m doing it in Python now |
| 00:14 | <jsbell> | Ah. |
| 00:14 | <SimonSapin> | maybe I’ll do in in rust later |
| 00:14 | <SimonSapin> | but only to learn rust, I’m not affiliated with Mozilla |
| 00:14 | <SimonSapin> | though I’d be happy if Servo ends up using it |
| 00:15 | <SimonSapin> | apparently there’s already a JS implementation |
| 00:15 | <jsbell> | That'd probably be mine, though it's incomplete and needs updating since it was an early P.O.C. |
| 00:19 | <SimonSapin> | jsbell: were you talking of implementing it in gecko to replace whatever they have now? |
| 00:28 | <annevk> | jsbell: yeah |
| 00:28 | <annevk> | jsbell: if you want message back in, file a bug |
| 00:49 | <SimonSapin> | annevk, jsbell: (if you read logs) here is the python implementation: https://github.com/SimonSapin/python-webencodings |
| 00:49 | <SimonSapin> | although it’s cheating: the actual codec implementations are from the stdlib. Still useful to have the right set of labels and BOM handling. |
| 00:49 | <SimonSapin> | But I don’t know if it really helps to show implementability of the spec :/ |
| 04:37 | <zewt> | and in its now proven style, google completely destroys youtube's ui |
| 05:21 | <karlcow> | zewt: it looks lire more and more like a Yahoo! portal homepage, which I thought google tried to escape somehow ☺ cycles. |
| 06:22 | <karlcow> | rha again reading a message of Henry Story thinking it was written by Henri Sivonen and not understanding why Henri Sivonen would write such a message. Dyslexia my love. *sigh* |
| 08:22 | <MikeSmith> | we just had a fairly biggish quake here |
| 08:23 | <MikeSmith> | 7.3 |
| 08:23 | <MikeSmith> | http://quake.twiple.jp/quake/view/20121207171858 |
| 08:55 | <asmodai> | http://www.xkcd.com/ |
| 08:55 | <asmodai> | Today's seems relevant. |
| 08:55 | <asmodai> | MikeSmith: Yeah, friend of mine is trying to get in touch with her sis up in Miyagi-ken. |
| 08:56 | <asmodai> | MikeSmith: They were lucky last time around, their house almost right on the coast/harbour |
| 08:57 | <MikeSmith> | asmodai: I think the damage was not big. Only a 1-meter tsunami |
| 10:02 | gsnedders | realizes he has no objection to a polyglot spec going to REC where the only normative content is, "a polyglot document is one which produces an identical DOM Document structure when parsed per both HTML5 and XML 1.0 combined being processed into an infoset and coerced into a DOM Document" |
| 10:03 | <gsnedders> | You can then informatively define what that subset is, and then you have a testable spec. |
| 10:03 | <gsnedders> | That doesn't normatively contradict anything. |
| 10:22 | <hsivonen> | gsnedders: it will still cause a decade of 386 as people try to rationalize why polyglot is important to use, since it has to be important to use when there is a REC for it |
| 10:26 | <annevk> | as long as the xkcd-level of discourse is still at mismatching tags we might not have much to worry about http://xkcd.com/1144/ |
| 10:27 | <SimonSapin> | http://www.glazman.org/weblog/dotclear/index.php?post/2012/12/07/%C3%80-la-xkcd... |
| 10:29 | <gsnedders> | hsivonen: Well, people don't try and rationalize why RDFa is important to use that much, despite for most things it not being very important. |
| 10:34 | <darobin> | RECs make people think things are important? |
| 10:34 | darobin | lines up a bunch of RECs for world peace and stuff |
| 10:34 | <darobin> | we've found the trick! |
| 10:34 | darobin | sings Heal The World |
| 10:35 | <hsivonen> | darobin: well, Notes might too, but the Process does not allow turning an item a WG has taken up into a blog post on intertwingly.net instead of either REC or Note. |
| 10:36 | <hsivonen> | gsnedders: you should look at Appendix C for precedent about rationalization |
| 10:36 | <darobin> | I don't think a REC will make people who don't already care think that polyglot is important |
| 10:37 | <darobin> | it's not as if it's being pitched in the way that XHTML was |
| 10:38 | <darobin> | when XHTML was being worked on, everyone was asking about their transition strategies |
| 10:38 | <darobin> | I have yet to get a single question about polyglot anywhere, conferences, meetups, consulting |
| 10:38 | <darobin> | I reckon it's not on the radar |
| 10:39 | <gsnedders> | Does IE9/10 parse MathML per HTML5? |
| 10:40 | <gsnedders> | I presume IE10 does. IE9? |
| 10:40 | <darobin> | gsnedders: if you give me a link I can point an IE10 at it |
| 10:41 | <gsnedders> | darobin: http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/2004 |
| 10:41 | <gsnedders> | IE10 almost certainly will, IE9 is a bigger question. |
| 10:42 | <darobin> | gsnedders: ah, damn, someone's using the Surface we have here — it'll have to wait a little bit sorry |
| 10:44 | <hsivonen> | gsnedders: IE10 doc.writes the MathML namespace URL |
| 10:44 | hsivonen | boots Windows 7 |
| 10:45 | <gsnedders> | Yeah, I was expecting that given they claim to support HTML5 parsing there. IE9 does SVG or SVG and MathML? Dunno. |
| 10:45 | <gsnedders> | Google doesn't seem to answer that. |
| 10:45 | <hsivonen> | gsnedders: IE9 doc.writes the XHTML namespace |
| 10:46 | <gsnedders> | Okay, thx. |
| 10:46 | <hsivonen> | s/math/svg/ makes IE9 doc.write the SVG namespace |
| 10:47 | <hsivonen> | (am I the only one around here with the basic set of Windows VMs?) |
| 10:47 | <gsnedders> | hsivonen: (I have them on my desktop, just not on my laptop) |
| 10:51 | <hsivonen> | Interesting how Opera.com gives a different download for Metro IE10 on Windows 8 and Desktop IE10 on Windows 8 |
| 10:52 | <hsivonen> | at least last I tried, which was maybe a week ago or so |
| 10:52 | <hsivonen> | 64-bit for the former, 32-bit for the latter |
| 10:53 | <hsivonen> | even though you can see the OS is 64-bit even when IE is running in the 32-bit mode |
| 10:53 | <hsivonen> | which Desktop IE10 is by default |
| 11:05 | <darobin> | hsivonen: I used to have the basic set of VMs but had excluded them from backup and lost them when I poured water on my previous laptop |
| 11:05 | <darobin> | need to set them up again, but lazy... I've been using some devices lying around in the meantime |
| 11:06 | <Stevef> | darobin: what do i need to do to get main ready for FPWD? |
| 11:06 | <darobin> | Stevef: let me look at it |
| 11:07 | <Stevef> | darobin: no rush |
| 11:07 | <darobin> | Stevef: are you using Anolis? |
| 11:07 | <Stevef> | no |
| 11:08 | <darobin> | hand-written? |
| 11:08 | <Stevef> | yep |
| 11:08 | <Stevef> | sometimes use feet |
| 11:09 | <Stevef> | or bash keyboard with head |
| 11:10 | <darobin> | hehehe |
| 11:10 | <darobin> | okay, well in that case what you need to do is mostly to change the stylesheet and header boilerplate |
| 11:10 | <hsivonen> | I wonder if I’ve ever seen “forename” used in English anywhere other than in the LibreOffice UI (written by Germans probably) |
| 11:10 | <darobin> | I think you'll have to number the sections and all |
| 11:11 | <hsivonen> | hmm. maybe in some SNCF ticketing UI |
| 11:11 | <hsivonen> | (where they said just “name” for surname) |
| 11:12 | <darobin> | hendry: it's used, if not commonly http://www.wordnik.com/words/forename |
| 11:13 | <hsivonen> | yeah, I checked it actually exists in dictionaries |
| 11:14 | <darobin> | most words actually exist in English |
| 11:14 | <SimonSapin> | hsivonen: "name" for surname is probably a direct translation from french |
| 11:14 | <darobin> | I was more interested in usage — that it shows up in tweets shows it ain't quite dead |
| 11:14 | <darobin> | yeah, that's definitely a French error |
| 11:14 | <darobin> | and forename is derived from praenomus (or whatever), so likewise frenchism |
| 11:15 | <hsivonen> | SimonSapin: yeah. (when using the English SNCF UI, it also helps to know that Roissy and Charles de Gaulle are the same thing) |
| 11:15 | <SimonSapin> | eh |
| 11:17 | <darobin> | hsivonen: next time you might be happier with capitainetrain.com |
| 11:17 | <annevk> | so we abstracted out append/remove, but not update for attributes... |
| 11:17 | <annevk> | that's kinda dumb |
| 11:17 | <annevk> | or maybe I should call that change? |
| 11:17 | <hsivonen> | darobin: I actually know enough French to be able to figure out the mistranslations and the implied synonym knowledge |
| 11:18 | <darobin> | hsivonen: yeah but the interface still sucks :) |
| 11:21 | <annevk> | https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=102698#c12 *sigh* |
| 11:22 | <hsivonen> | annevk: did you mean comment 17 rather than 12? |
| 11:23 | <annevk> | I linked to #12 for context |
| 11:23 | <hsivonen> | ok |
| 11:26 | <annevk> | so what does "4114360123456785" mean in HTML? |
| 11:27 | <annevk> | oh, it's an official sample credit card number, that's boring |
| 11:42 | <annevk> | Maybe attributes should have a pointer to their associated element as well... Not too important for now I suppose |
| 12:00 | <hsivonen> | Stevef: FWIW, I still intend to raise an FO if the HTML WG removes hgroup from the parsing algorithm or the UA stylesheet |
| 12:00 | <Stevef> | hsivonen: i don't think that is an intention |
| 12:01 | <Stevef> | hsivonen: so raise away if that is an outcome |
| 12:02 | <hsivonen> | Stevef: your email did not make that clear |
| 12:02 | <Stevef> | hsivonen: I can do so |
| 12:04 | <darobin> | we can't remove hgroup, I use it on my blog! |
| 12:06 | <MikeSmith> | darobin: hopefully you will be cured of that eventually |
| 12:06 | <MikeSmith> | hgroup doesn't meet the high bar man |
| 12:06 | <Stevef> | hsivonen: email sent let me know if not clear enough |
| 12:06 | <darobin> | you're expecting me to update my blog??? |
| 12:07 | <darobin> | I don't care about high bars, I'm more of a lowlife dive kinda guy |
| 12:07 | <MikeSmith> | hgroup doens't even meet the low bar! |
| 12:07 | <MikeSmith> | heh |
| 12:07 | <Stevef> | MikeSmith: some bars are higher... |
| 12:07 | <darobin> | I meet hgroup there quite often |
| 12:07 | <darobin> | poor thing's turned to drinking |
| 12:07 | <darobin> | maybe we could ask MikeSmith to head to the bar on the Hilton in Tokyo |
| 12:08 | <darobin> | that's a really high bar |
| 12:08 | <darobin> | he could return with whatever elements he meets there |
| 12:08 | <darobin> | then we'd call it a day |
| 12:08 | <MikeSmith> | :) |
| 12:09 | <MikeSmith> | my irssi right now is showing me a "Lag" indicator that it never did before |
| 12:09 | <MikeSmith> | but now it's gone |
| 12:09 | <asmodai> | Good indicator of incoming netsplits. |
| 12:09 | <MikeSmith> | I guess the purpose id to give you a heads-up when your connection is laggy |
| 12:09 | <MikeSmith> | ah |
| 12:10 | <asmodai> | IIRC it is the RTT to your connected IRC server |
| 12:10 | <MikeSmith> | anyway, irssi rocks many ways |
| 12:10 | <MikeSmith> | asmodai: ok |
| 12:10 | <asmodai> | I used to use it, went with weechat this year. |
| 12:11 | <MikeSmith> | asmodai: dunno that one |
| 12:11 | MikeSmith | googles |
| 12:12 | <asmodai> | I find it easier to use/configure than irssi |
| 12:12 | <asmodai> | plus supports more binding languages if you want to write/use plugins/modules |
| 12:12 | <MikeSmith> | ok |
| 12:13 | <MikeSmith> | hmm I go to type "wee..." into my address bar to start a search and then it gives a "weedsmokersguide.com" suggestion |
| 12:14 | <asmodai> | lol |
| 12:14 | <MikeSmith> | I guess I should probably edit my history a bit |
| 12:15 | <hsivonen> | Stevef: thanks |
| 12:15 | <MikeSmith> | asmodai: among the things that are nice about irssi are its integration with screen |
| 12:15 | <MikeSmith> | limited but still some nice things |
| 12:15 | <Stevef> | hsivonen: no problem I have no intention of asking for useful stuff to be cut |
| 12:16 | <asmodai> | yep, weechat has auto-away when you detach screen, for example |
| 12:16 | <MikeSmith> | like, there's a plugin that automatically marks you as away if you detach from the screen, and then auto un-aways you when you re-attach |
| 12:16 | <MikeSmith> | asmodai: OK |
| 12:18 | <MikeSmith> | Stevef, hsivonen : I would be very happy for hgroup to be dropped as a conforming element, but also agree it should not be dropped from the parser and UA stylesheet |
| 12:20 | <Stevef> | MikeSmith:yup but would like, acc layer mapping to be removed as a) not implemented and b) not good. |
| 12:20 | <MikeSmith> | another thing about hgroup is that it's an additional authoring-error vector we can really live without given how very little benefit it actually provides |
| 12:20 | <MikeSmith> | Stevef: yeah, agreed |
| 12:20 | <MikeSmith> | it really was misguided from the get-go |
| 12:21 | <MikeSmith> | about the authoring-errors issue, see https://twitter.com/Larabooklover/status/276944364792590336 |
| 12:21 | <Stevef> | Mikesmith: have noted from looking at how it is used in wild that often it includes content apart from headings or only 1 heading |
| 12:21 | <MikeSmith> | "oddly it doesn't like that I had a link & images in my HGROUP tag. Seems 2b a widely acknowledged issue w/ the validator. " |
| 12:22 | <MikeSmith> | Stevef: ok |
| 12:22 | <MikeSmith> | so I would really like to see it cut out before the illness spreads further |
| 12:23 | hsivonen | wonders where people get the idea of using hgroup for anything other than grouping h1—h6 |
| 12:24 | <MikeSmith> | I really don't think there are 5 people in the universe who are going to be too upset that if they use a subhead without an hgroup, a document outline is going to make the following content a child of the subhead instead of the head |
| 12:25 | <Stevef> | data dump of hgroup code: http://html5accessibility.com/HTML5data/hgroup.html |
| 12:25 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen: because the name doesn't really make it obvious |
| 12:25 | <MikeSmith> | and because authors do a lot of silly things |
| 12:26 | <MikeSmith> | and the more unnecessary sureface you give them for doing silly things, the more trouble you're asking for |
| 12:26 | <MikeSmith> | *surface |
| 12:30 | <MikeSmith> | Stevef: did you calculate how many included non-heading content and/or only 1 heading? |
| 12:30 | <Stevef> | MikeSmith:no but can if its useful |
| 12:31 | <MikeSmith> | would be useful I think |
| 12:31 | <Stevef> | OK |
| 12:32 | <Stevef> | though havng only 1 heading is not a conformance issue |
| 12:33 | <Stevef> | its just totally redundant |
| 12:34 | <annevk> | aaahahahfd |
| 12:34 | <annevk> | designing attribute change handling is fricking hard |
| 12:36 | <annevk> | HTML just says "Whenever the name attribute is set" which is pretty vague from a DOM perspective |
| 12:36 | <MikeSmith> | Stevef: it's an indication that the author probably misunderstands the purpose of the element |
| 12:36 | <annevk> | but getting all of HTML rewritten... |
| 12:37 | <annevk> | maybe I should do it vaguely, similarly to how it's done for tree mutations |
| 12:40 | <MikeSmith> | annevk: "maybe I should do it vaguely" doesn't sound like the best phrase to use in spec writing |
| 12:40 | <MikeSmith> | generally |
| 12:41 | <annevk> | the problem is that HTML doesn't address certain things when talking about attributes |
| 12:41 | <annevk> | e.g. the namespace and local name / name |
| 12:45 | <MikeSmith> | ok |
| 12:49 | <annevk> | I'm open to better solutions and pull requests |
| 12:49 | <annevk> | I guess for now I'm going for the incremental improvement |
| 12:56 | <MikeSmith> | "warning: hg.mozilla.org certificate with fingerprint 10:78:e8:57:2d:95:de:7c:de:90:bd:22:e1:38:17:67:c5:a7:9c:14 not verified (check hostfingerprints or web.cacerts config setting)" |
| 12:56 | <MikeSmith> | I don't remember getting that before |
| 12:57 | <MikeSmith> | Ms2ger: ↑ |
| 12:59 | <MikeSmith> | I like the way mozilla mach shows the elapsed timestamp in its console output |
| 12:59 | <MikeSmith> | I wish ninja did that too |
| 13:18 | <annevk> | teehee |
| 13:19 | <annevk> | DOMTokenList is now an ordered set rather than a weird kind of string |
| 13:19 | <annevk> | and there was much rejoicing |
| 13:19 | <Stevef> | anybody know how to tell if an element is actually focusable in IE? seems that all elements have tabindex=0 set in DOM |
| 13:20 | <annevk> | you mean tabIndex returns 0? |
| 13:20 | <annevk> | in any event, what's focusable is up to the UA |
| 13:22 | <MikeSmith> | all right fwiw, no more bugmail will go to public-html |
| 13:22 | <MikeSmith> | just now flipped the switch |
| 13:22 | <MikeSmith> | exactly everything that was going there before will now go to public-html-admin |
| 13:23 | <Stevef> | annevk: yeah i suppose thats what i mean, understand that, in general only certain elments are included in default tab order |
| 13:23 | <Stevef> | MikeSmith: cool |
| 13:26 | <annevk> | Stevef: I guess that's a bug in IE for not returning -1 |
| 13:27 | <Stevef> | annevk: ok makes it hard to write a script to identify default focusable elements in IE |
| 13:27 | <annevk> | yes |
| 13:27 | <Stevef> | which is what I am trying to do... |
| 13:28 | <annevk> | I hear you, but I don't really see alternatives |
| 13:31 | <Stevef> | thanks anyway |
| 13:39 | <gsnedders> | hsivonen: "Forename" is fairly common on formal forms, at least. |
| 13:40 | <SimonSapin> | annevk: have you seen https://github.com/SimonSapin/python-webencodings ? |
| 13:40 | <hsivonen> | gsnedders: ok |
| 13:40 | <annevk> | SimonSapin: yeah, did a RT from @WHATWG |
| 13:41 | <SimonSapin> | annevk: the actual codecs are from the stdlib, so I’m not sure it really helps to show that the spec is implementable |
| 13:41 | <gsnedders> | hsivonen: UK passport form uses "title", "forename", "surname", and "maiden / all previous names". |
| 13:42 | <annevk> | SimonSapin: nope, but it's still cool |
| 13:42 | <hsivonen> | gsnedders: is this an en-GB thing? |
| 13:42 | <gsnedders> | hsivonen: Dunno. It's definitely *formal* en-GB. You don't hear it generally. |
| 13:46 | <hsivonen> | hmm. all receipts I’m sending to my accountant in today’s batch came to me over the Internet and I printed them out. |
| 13:46 | <Ms2ger> | hsivonen, we're living in the future! |
| 13:47 | <gsnedders> | Somewhat unsurprisingly, "first name" is the oldest documented term (a1325), then "forename" (1534). |
| 13:48 | <gsnedders> | Interesting that "first name" is becoming more common again. |
| 13:49 | <MikeSmith> | Stevef: about "note supression is no longer a requirement", not sure what you mean. The spec still does require it to be omitted from the outline. |
| 13:49 | <MikeSmith> | ("it" being any subheads in hgroup) |
| 13:53 | <MikeSmith> | Stevef: ah I guess you mean the acc tree, not the outline |
| 13:54 | <annevk> | Ms2ger: so for getting and setting of attributes by specifications... if we don't want them to directly reuse setAttributeNS/getAttributeNS, I guess we have to define some kind of shurtcut for that |
| 13:54 | <Stevef> | MikeSmith: what i meant was that previoulsy that subjeadings would not be included in table of contents, but now they can be |
| 13:55 | <MikeSmith> | ok |
| 13:55 | <annevk> | Ms2ger: something like: To *set an attribute* for an /element/ consisting of a /local name/, /value/, and optional /namespace/, run these steps |
| 13:55 | <annevk> | Ms2ger: perhaps? |
| 13:55 | <annevk> | Ms2ger: and redefine attributes to say they're about local name and value rather than name and value? |
| 13:56 | <annevk> | Ms2ger: (/namespace/ defaulting to null of course) |
| 13:57 | <annevk> | Ms2ger: and then the same for "get an attribute" |
| 14:05 | <Ms2ger> | annevk, sounds good |
| 14:17 | <divya> | annevk: congrats on the candidacy |
| 14:20 | <Ms2ger> | annevk, is there an easy way to test what a FormData object contains? |
| 14:31 | <annevk> | Ms2ger: have to XHR it at the moment, see URLQuery for a potential future interface upgrade |
| 14:44 | <foobler> | Anyone know how I can set a CSS property of an element with the !important flag programmatically? |
| 14:45 | <divya> | inline style. |
| 14:45 | <foobler> | divya: ?? |
| 14:45 | <hasather> | foobler: or http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-2-Style/css.html#CSS-CSSStyleDeclaration-setProperty |
| 14:45 | <divya> | o hai hasather :) |
| 14:46 | <hasather> | divya: \o |
| 14:46 | <foobler> | haha, didn't think I'd see a w3.org link in here, but thanks. |
| 14:46 | <divya> | plz have more friday beers on my behalf hasather |
| 14:46 | <foobler> | hasather: do you know if it works with IE? |
| 14:47 | <hasather> | divya: today is christmas party, so will do ;) |
| 14:47 | <divya> | OMGGG |
| 14:47 | <divya> | :'( |
| 14:47 | <hasather> | foobler: not sure |
| 14:47 | <hasather> | foobler: since IE9? http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ie/ff975226(v=vs.85).aspx |
| 14:48 | <foobler> | hasather: wait, so how do I use it? |
| 14:49 | <hasather> | foobler: ele.style.setProperty("property", "value", "important") |
| 14:50 | <foobler> | schweet!!! |
| 14:50 | foobler | <3s hasather |
| 15:04 | <zcorpan> | http://dev.w3.org/csswg/cssom/#widl-CSSStyleDeclaration-setProperty-void-DOMString-property-DOMString-value-DOMString-priority is more up-to-date |
| 15:05 | <zcorpan> | not sure if cssom has improved or regressed since annevk left it |
| 15:05 | <divya> | your campaigning can be restricted to twitters zcorpan |
| 15:05 | <divya> | THANKS |
| 15:05 | divya | runs |
| 15:05 | <annevk> | it uses legacy DOM-style now, that's kinda crappy |
| 15:06 | <zcorpan> | divya: NO |
| 15:06 | <zcorpan> | annevk: yeah |
| 15:06 | <darobin> | not even my fault! |
| 15:07 | <zcorpan> | what is used to generate it? |
| 15:08 | <divya> | :)) |
| 15:08 | <darobin> | zcorpan: I think Glenn wrote his own tool |
| 15:08 | <zcorpan> | interesting |
| 15:08 | <darobin> | not sure though |
| 15:08 | <zcorpan> | is it public? |
| 15:08 | <darobin> | but it doesn't have the footprints of any tool I know |
| 15:09 | <darobin> | and I know that he was playing with writing a WebIDL processor that took hot comments into account |
| 15:09 | <annevk> | it doesn't really look much improved when given a cursory glance |
| 15:13 | <zcorpan> | https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/csswg/file/4d0d121f81f1/cssom/cssom-generate.js |
| 15:14 | <darobin> | I like this part: https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/csswg/file/4d0d121f81f1/cssom/cssom-generate.js#l282 |
| 15:16 | <divya> | it sez the author is bert bos |
| 15:16 | <zcorpan> | divya: that's just hg web UI being confusing |
| 15:16 | <divya> | o :( |
| 15:19 | <darobin> | divya: bert would never stoop to writing JS |
| 15:19 | <darobin> | real Berts use C |
| 15:19 | <divya> | ahah |
| 15:19 | <darobin> | not that this is very far from being C mind you, it clearly is JS written by a C developer |
| 15:21 | <divya> | btw foobler darobin is one of the editors of HTML spec. so this forum has plenty of W3C members including me. |
| 15:26 | <darobin> | yeah, it's all one big loving family |
| 15:26 | <divya> | :))))))))))))))))))))))))))) |
| 15:27 | <zcorpan> | wow that's a big smile |
| 15:27 | <darobin> | ♥♥♥ |
| 15:27 | <divya> | like Dallas the TV show! |
| 15:27 | divya | hopes she has gotten this pop culture reference right |
| 15:27 | darobin | has the song stuck in his head now |
| 15:29 | <Hixie> | zcorpan: quirk for http://quirks.spec.whatwg.org/ that it doesn't seem you have yet -- <font face=wingdings> vs font-family:wingdings |
| 15:30 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: did you see my referece to DOMFrameContentLoaded code? |
| 15:30 | <zcorpan> | Hixie: file a bug |
| 15:30 | <zcorpan> | Hixie: (you can select some text to get a link in the bottom left corner) |
| 15:30 | <Hixie> | zcorpan: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20293, apologies for complete lack of details |
| 15:31 | <Hixie> | hsivonen: recently? |
| 15:31 | <zcorpan> | Hixie: thanks |
| 15:32 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: slightly over 24 hours ago |
| 15:32 | <Hixie> | hsivonen: no, sorry. barely been online in the past few days. |
| 15:32 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20121206#l-387 |
| 15:32 | <Hixie> | reading... |
| 15:34 | <Hixie> | is there an origin check i'm missing in that code? |
| 15:35 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: dunno. |
| 15:36 | <zcorpan> | on a related note, CSSOM is no longer under CC0 |
| 15:37 | <hsivonen> | because Glenn edits it? |
| 15:39 | <zcorpan> | the copyright notice at some point changed from CC0 to W3C doc license |
| 15:41 | <hsivonen> | :-( |
| 15:42 | <zcorpan> | https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/csswg/diff/4f093aa74a83/cssom/cssom-source seems to be a normative change |
| 15:43 | <zcorpan> | https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/csswg/diff/6ebf32d04cb7/cssom/cssom-source is the copyright change |
| 15:46 | <zcorpan> | https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/csswg/diff/cee171486069/cssom/cssom-source specifies "serialize a CSS declaration block" |
| 15:49 | <annevk> | specifying things in terms of developer-exposed method calls is wrong |
| 15:49 | <annevk> | DOM has a little bit of that, trying to get rid of it |
| 15:50 | <zcorpan> | https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/csswg/diff/f6b40801289d/cssom/cssom-source serializes !important |
| 15:51 | <zcorpan> | https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/csswg/diff/aac637834c2e/cssom/cssom-source removes the algorithm to "insert a CSS rule" |
| 15:54 | <zcorpan> | not sure what https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/csswg/diff/7c881a97c919/cssom/cssom-source does |
| 15:57 | <zcorpan> | https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/csswg/diff/0a759792a7bc/cssom/cssom-source changes behavior for U+0000 |
| 15:59 | <zcorpan> | https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/csswg/diff/e9f4e4a43967/cssom/cssom-source specs some more serialization |
| 16:01 | <zcorpan> | that seems to be about it. haven't checked the impact of the switch to his new spec generator. |
| 16:11 | <annevk> | suspicious changes |
| 16:11 | <annevk> | but also seems like easy to start from my CC0 copy and improve that |
| 16:15 | <foobler> | divya: oh yeah? interesting.. |
| 16:31 | <Stevef> | 278 HTML5 pages that use <header> and <footer> elements (amongst others) styled to reveal them http://www.html5accessibility.com/HTML5data/header-footer/index-all.html |
| 16:33 | <JonathanNeal> | neato |
| 16:35 | <Stevef> | MikeSmith: are there bugzilla products yet for HTML 5.1? |
| 16:41 | <MikeSmith> | Stevef: not yet |
| 16:42 | <Stevef> | ok |
| 16:43 | <dglazkov> | good morning, Whatwg! |
| 16:44 | <JonathanNeal> | goodmorning dglazkov |
| 17:02 | <annevk> | http://infrequently.org/2012/12/reforming-the-w3c-tag/#comment-240289 |
| 17:02 | <annevk> | "so that the W3C doesn’t try to design MultiMaps in the guise of URLs" uhuh |
| 17:32 | <hober> | annevk: oh, the W3C is doing that? :) |
| 18:16 | <manu-db> | This should get WHATWG quote of the year: "This matters because in today’s web when you go ever so slightly off the path paved by a spec’s use-cases, the drop-off is impossibly steep, and the only way to keep from risking life-threatening abstraction level transitions is to flood the entire canyon with JavaScript and hope you can still swim in the resulting inland sea of complexity." |
| 18:17 | <TabAtkins> | manu-db: Preach it! (Or get slightlylate to continue to preach it.) |
| 18:18 | <TabAtkins> | darobin: There aren't plans yet, but we purposely made the grammar loose so that we can accomodate it in the future without breaking in down-level browsers. |
| 18:36 | <TabAtkins> | annevk: I'm probably going to do a re-run of CSSOM from your last version, since it's *not* advancing the way we were promised. |
| 18:40 | <annevk> | can't say I'm surprised really |
| 18:40 | <annevk> | I hope you got the bandwidth given all the other items you're working on :) |
| 18:57 | <TabAtkins> | I don't, right now. I'm hoping to free some up early next year. :/ |
| 19:05 | <SimonSapin1> | Anyone for a XPath puzzle? The CSS selector |section:nth-of-type(2) can be expressed in XPath as //section[count(preceding-sibling:section)=1] … what about *:nth-of-type(2) ? |
| 19:06 | <TabAtkins> | SimonSapin: Don't think you can, actually. |
| 19:06 | <TabAtkins> | Lesson is: CSS and XPath are identical in idea, but execution is often different. |
| 19:06 | <SimonSapin> | I know |
| 19:07 | <dglazkov> | XPath puzzle! What will they think of next? Guillotine trinkets? |
| 19:07 | <TabAtkins> | Or was it a puzzle because you know the answer? |
| 19:07 | <SimonSapin> | I maintain cssselect which does such translation. Simple cases are easy, but it gets crazy when you go into details |
| 19:07 | <SimonSapin> | I don’t know the answer |
| 19:10 | <SimonSapin> | So cssselect and Nokogiri are doomed. Maybe only Liam can save them. |
| 19:10 | <dglazkov> | Liam Neeson is pretty good at saving |
| 19:12 | <SimonSapin> | Liam Quin assured me this kind of thing is possible with XPath, but I don’t remember the details |
| 19:12 | <SimonSapin> | I didn’t doubt him, he was wearing a wizard hat |
| 19:37 | <JonathanNeal> | dglazkov: http://asylumeclectica.com/grim/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/shot_1304520437749.jpg |
| 19:42 | <jwalden> | ...I am not going to check logs to see what that follows from |
| 20:16 | <TabAtkins> | Holy jeezus, real life underwater xenomorph: http://mlkshk.com/p/M1EP |
| 20:24 | <annevk> | Ms2ger: document.domain is a little outside what I'm working on |
| 20:24 | <Ms2ger> | Boo ;) |
| 20:46 | <annevk> | Ms2ger: hmm looking at its algorithm I might have to get involved at some point :/ |
| 20:47 | <Ms2ger> | I was afraid so |
| 21:29 | <dglazkov> | I am sorry, I feel like I stepped out of a discussion and missed something. What's HTML5.1? |
| 21:30 | <dglazkov> | and .. do I want to know? |
| 21:34 | <TabAtkins> | dglazkov: It's the W3C snapshot of HTML. |
| 21:34 | <jgraham> | dglazkov: It's like WHATWG HTML but with more sex and intrigue |
| 21:35 | <jgraham> | Except without the sex |
| 21:35 | <jgraham> | (possibly) |
| 21:40 | <hober> | there's not much intrigue either |
| 21:40 | jamesr | notes that hober doesn't deny that there is more sex |
| 21:41 | <hober> | n.b. "either" |
| 21:45 | <jgraham> | Bah, well I won't bother to try and make your life sound exciting again |
| 21:47 | <hober> | hahahaha |
| 21:55 | <dglazkov> | got it. 50 shades of HTML |
| 22:04 | <jgraham> | dglazkov: I doubt you will see middle aged ladies (or indeed men) furtively reading the HTML5.1 spec on the tube |
| 22:06 | <Hixie> | man, heycam, every time you add new features to webidl, a few months later i get a rash of bugs asking me to update the spec accordingly |
| 22:13 | <dglazkov> | TabAtkins: for CSSHostRule, it looks like I need to add the constant here: http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/cssom-constants |
| 22:14 | <TabAtkins> | Yes. |
| 22:14 | <dglazkov> | should I make it 17 or 1001? |
| 22:14 | <TabAtkins> | 1001 until we officially adopt @host into a spec (which will be soon). |
| 22:15 | dglazkov | sings arabian nights |
| 22:16 | <dglazkov> | I can't change it :-\ |
| 22:16 | <SimonSapin> | TabAtkins: what’s @host ? |
| 22:18 | <dglazkov> | SimonSapin: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webcomponents/raw-file/tip/spec/shadow/index.html#host-at-rule |
| 22:19 | <TabAtkins> | SimonSapin: In terms of http://dev.w3.org/csswg/selectors4/#scoping it transforms the scope-contained selectors in <style scoped> into scope-filtered. |
| 22:19 | <astearns> | dglazkov: reload the wiki page, check to see if I added the right thing |
| 22:20 | <SimonSapin> | I see, thanks |
| 22:20 | <dglazkov> | astearns: not yet |
| 22:20 | <dglazkov> | :) |
| 22:21 | <astearns> | "1001 HOST_RULE proposed for Shadow DOM" ?? |
| 22:21 | <dglazkov> | oooh |
| 22:21 | <dglazkov> | I thought you just changed permissions |
| 22:21 | <dglazkov> | :) |
| 22:21 | <dglazkov> | alrighty! |
| 22:21 | <dglazkov> | thanks |
| 22:21 | <astearns> | I don't have that power :) |
| 22:22 | <dglazkov> | astearns: disappoint :P |
| 22:22 | <astearns> | I think you have to ask fantasai and/or plinss |
| 22:22 | <dglazkov> | eh. my work here is done. |
| 22:22 | <dglazkov> | by you! |
| 22:24 | <dglazkov> | astearns: thanks again |
| 22:30 | <Hixie> | hober: yt? |
| 22:34 | <Hixie> | anyone know why hober filed some duplicate bugs pre-marked as blocking the dupe bugs? |
| 22:34 | <Hixie> | i don't understand what's going on here |
| 22:36 | <jgraham> | intrigue! |
| 22:39 | <dglazkov> | and sex! |
| 22:51 | <karlcow> | that woke me up |
| 22:53 | <dglazkov> | :D |
| 22:59 | <gavinc> | annevk: is anyone else stupid enough to be trying using the URL spec with shims today? |
| 22:59 | <gavinc> | annevk: specifically the newly spec'd URLQuery? |
| 23:00 | <annevk> | gavinc: is it stupid? I haven't heard of anyone doing anything with it other than the email to the list |
| 23:04 | <Hixie> | marcosc: yt? |
| 23:04 | <karlcow> | In http://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/dom.html#dom-document-lastmodified |
| 23:04 | <karlcow> | is there an issue in not knowing the time zone? |
| 23:05 | <Hixie> | that API has all kinds of issues |
| 23:05 | <karlcow> | ah no |
| 23:05 | <karlcow> | user local tz… I read it in my mind as server tz |
| 23:06 | <karlcow> | for the rest yes I agree. It's messy |
| 23:06 | <karlcow> | https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=4363 |
| 23:06 | <karlcow> | I wish it was not an american format for the date too. |
| 23:06 | <Hixie> | if we were not in insane land, it would be a Date object or some such |
| 23:08 | <karlcow> | it was before for webkit and opera, firefox and IE had the format of the spec. |
| 23:09 | <karlcow> | I should run the tests again to see what's done now |
| 23:10 | <gavinc> | annevk: mmm, the shim thing from orion is the only thing your aware of then? |
| 23:10 | <annevk> | think so, only wrote the spec a few days ago |
| 23:11 | <gavinc> | annevk: another engineer here just sat down to write query string parsing in Javascript and was hoping that we could just implement the spec, but don't seem to have the underlying URL object as a shim to start from :\ |
| 23:12 | <annevk> | yeah, that's why I'm trying to fix it (and others before me) |
| 23:13 | gavinc | nods |
| 23:14 | <TabAtkins> | Hixie: It feels like you rejected both of my ruby bugs after only skimming them. :/ Your comments either show that you didn't understand the problem, or that you're hyperbolizing and making demonstrably false objections. |
| 23:14 | <TabAtkins> | (Both of these assertions are backed up in my reopening responses.) |
| 23:14 | <Hixie> | TabAtkins: please feel free to reopen them explaining why i'm wrong, but i assure you that i did not just skim them. |
| 23:15 | <TabAtkins> | I did, for both. |
| 23:15 | <karlcow> | Indeed Opera fixed it according to the spec |
| 23:48 | <Hixie> | TabAtkins: thanks |
