| 00:06 | <Hixie> | hgroup isn't going anyewhere |
| 00:06 | <Hixie> | erlehmann: yeah, what would you call it? |
| 00:06 | <Hixie> | erlehmann: i was stuck for names :-( |
| 00:06 | <erlehmann> | hixie what would i call what? what would i call hgroup? |
| 00:07 | <Hixie> | what would you call sortNow |
| 00:09 | <Hixie> | maybe stopSort() should be stopSorting() |
| 00:09 | <Hixie> | (erlehmann ^) |
| 00:12 | <erlehmann> | ah |
| 00:13 | <erlehmann> | Hixie, what happens when stopSort() is called and the sortable attribute is set? are the controls visible stills |
| 00:13 | <erlehmann> | ? |
| 00:13 | <erlehmann> | also, i have no idea how to call that. i think i do not understand all the issues |
| 00:13 | <Hixie> | stopSort() just means that no column is now marked as being sorted |
| 00:14 | <Hixie> | doesn't change the UI other than remove the indicator as to which column is currently sorted |
| 00:14 | <TabAtkins> | <table>.stopSort(). |
| 00:17 | <erlehmann> | how is it internally represented which column is sorted? |
| 00:18 | <Hixie> | how do you mean? |
| 00:18 | <Hixie> | internally to what? |
| 00:20 | <erlehmann> | let me rephrase that |
| 00:20 | <erlehmann> | does having sort attribute mean something is sorted and the absense of them mean it is not sorted? |
| 00:21 | <erlehmann> | or is there an intermediatelayer |
| 00:22 | <TabAtkins> | If by "not sorted" you mean "not guaranteed to be sorted", then yes. |
| 00:22 | <erlehmann> | i think i'll wait until this is done. and sleep some time |
| 00:22 | <TabAtkins> | The presence of "sort" on a <th> means that the column the <th> is in is actively sorted. |
| 00:22 | <erlehmann> | so does the absense mean the dom goes to its original state? |
| 00:22 | <TabAtkins> | That is, upon setting the table is rearranged to be sorted, and if you mutate the table it adjust the sort accordingly. |
| 00:22 | <TabAtkins> | The absence means it stops being actively sorted. |
| 00:23 | <TabAtkins> | It goes back to acting like a normal table. |
| 00:23 | <erlehmann> | or does the absense mean that it stops sorting but the previous dom manipulation prevails? |
| 00:23 | <TabAtkins> | That. |
| 00:23 | <erlehmann> | ah |
| 00:26 | <TabAtkins> | I think the main purpose of stopSorting() will be to *reset* sorting. Otherwise, if you call sortNow() on a new column, it'll just become the new primary sort column, and the previous one will downgrade to a secondary sort column. |
| 00:27 | <Hixie> | setting the attribute doesn't immediately cause a sort, either, so maybe it should |
| 00:27 | <TabAtkins> | Yes, I think so. |
| 00:27 | <Hixie> | that would mean we don't need sortNow() |
| 00:27 | <Hixie> | however |
| 00:27 | <Hixie> | it would mean that setting an attribute causes a change to the DOM |
| 00:27 | <Hixie> | other than the attribute |
| 00:27 | <Hixie> | which is a new level of wacky, maybe? |
| 00:27 | <Hixie> | hmmm |
| 00:27 | <TabAtkins> | Depends. Sync or async? |
| 00:28 | <erlehmann> | all of this is pretty wacky |
| 00:28 | <erlehmann> | tables are black magic |
| 00:28 | <Hixie> | TabAtkins: dunno |
| 00:28 | <TabAtkins> | You still want sortNow(), I think. Even if we did start sorting the table after setting the attribute, it woudl be extra-wacky to also downgrade the sort level of the other sorted headings. |
| 00:28 | <Hixie> | oh wait, we still need sortNow |
| 00:29 | <Hixie> | you need sortNow() because it also sets the attributes |
| 00:29 | <TabAtkins> | Yeah. |
| 00:30 | <Hixie> | maybe setting the attribute shouldn't do the sort, so that you can set several in a row |
| 00:30 | <Hixie> | which you almost always will want to, if you're doing that |
| 00:30 | <Hixie> | so maybe table should have a .forceSort()? |
| 00:31 | <Hixie> | i don't like sortNow() as a name, for the method on <th> |
| 00:31 | <TabAtkins> | I can't come up with a better name. :/ |
| 00:31 | <Hixie> | me either :-( |
| 00:31 | <Hixie> | sort() would be perfect |
| 00:32 | <TabAtkins> | Dude, just make the attribute be sorted. |
| 00:32 | <Hixie> | it's just so weird to have a past-tense attribute to do something in the future |
| 00:33 | <TabAtkins> | Nah, it's an adjective, not a past-tense verb. |
| 00:33 | <Hixie> | fine fine |
| 00:33 | <Hixie> | sorted it is |
| 00:36 | <erlehmann> | i find it funny how you are lacking words to describe what is a feature many want! |
| 00:43 | <JonathanNeal> | <table sorted>? |
| 00:44 | <TabAtkins> | Nah, the <table sortable> attribute is like <video controls> - it says you want sorting UI, but has no effect on sorting itself. |
| 00:45 | <JonathanNeal> | I see. So this is for javascript? Like Array.prototype.sort? |
| 00:46 | <TabAtkins> | No, you can still use <th sorted> on table headers to sort by the columns declaratively, without needing any script. |
| 00:47 | <TabAtkins> | JonathanNeal: Check out the very first part of http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/temp |
| 00:48 | <TabAtkins> | It explains the new stuff being added (except we've slightly changed the names since Hixie last updated that). |
| 00:48 | <JonathanNeal> | I guess it was the () that was throwing me off. |
| 00:48 | <jsbell> | Have a polyfill implemented yet? :) |
| 00:49 | <TabAtkins> | JonathanNeal: There are JS functions for dealing with the sorting, too, of course. |
| 00:49 | <JonathanNeal> | a polyfill could be written on the fly, is it necessary? |
| 00:50 | <TabAtkins> | The only difficult part of the polyfill would be validating the constraints. |
| 00:50 | <JonathanNeal> | what would this feature be called? sortable tables? |
| 00:51 | <TabAtkins> | (Only paying attention to sorting-capable <th> elements, treating rows as automatic based on spans, etc.) |
| 00:51 | <TabAtkins> | s/automatic/atomic/ |
| 00:52 | <TabAtkins> | Hixie: Regarding adding sorted attributes via script which don't automatically start sorting, what about adding .sort() to <table> as well, with it just running through and picking up all the sorted columns again |
| 00:52 | <TabAtkins> | ? |
| 00:52 | <JonathanNeal> | I was wondering why you wouldn't just use existing names, like sort, etc. |
| 00:53 | <JonathanNeal> | although .sortTable might not conflict with any potential future .sort that would apply agnostically to elements. |
| 00:53 | <TabAtkins> | JonathanNeal: Before, Hixie used "sort" as the attribute name, so he coudln't use "sort" as the method name as well (attributes normally reflect as a same-named property). |
| 00:54 | <TabAtkins> | JonathanNeal: I'm not sure how I would sort arbitrary elements. They need to be linear collections of some kind, and tables are really the only thing that fits that bill. |
| 00:54 | <JonathanNeal> | Did I hear right that sort takes a value? sort="1", etc? |
| 00:55 | <JonathanNeal> | TabAtkins: lists fit the bit too. |
| 00:55 | <TabAtkins> | JonathanNeal: Maybe, yeah. |
| 00:55 | <TabAtkins> | JonathanNeal: Yes, the value is an integer >= 1, which determines the sort order. |
| 00:55 | <JonathanNeal> | So, this document I'm reading is using unagreed or outdated terminology in some spots? |
| 00:55 | <TabAtkins> | sorted=1 is the primary sort column, with sorted=2 used to break ties, etc. |
| 00:55 | <TabAtkins> | Yes. ^_^ |
| 00:56 | <JonathanNeal> | for the sake of discussion, why not http://oksoclap.com/whatwg-sortable-tables ? |
| 00:56 | <TabAtkins> | Because Hixie's document is in his own webspace and easy for him to use? |
| 00:57 | <JonathanNeal> | Yea, it's just that I was trying to understand the discussion and you said it was outdated. I thought something more open would help organize thoughts a little better. |
| 00:58 | <JonathanNeal> | I see, that's where you changed it to "sorted". |
| 00:58 | <TabAtkins> | Yeah, all I've changed is <th sort> ==> <th sorted>, and <th>.sortNow() ==> <th>.sort(). |
| 00:58 | <JonathanNeal> | Is that you fixing it? |
| 01:00 | <TabAtkins> | Yeah. |
| 01:01 | <JonathanNeal> | I like this name, "comparator". It's better than "compareFunction", the naming I see used in mdn docs for Array.prototype.sort. |
| 01:01 | <TabAtkins> | Interesting that the MDN docs don't use it. It's the standard term. |
| 01:01 | <JonathanNeal> | can comparator be set via string <th comparator="return a -b"> ? |
| 01:02 | <JonathanNeal> | whoops, i meant to add the function (a, b) |
| 01:02 | <TabAtkins> | No, it's a property, not an attribute. |
| 01:02 | <JonathanNeal> | Got it. |
| 01:02 | <TabAtkins> | You can, however, do <th onsort="this.comparator = function(a,b){return a - b;}"> |
| 01:02 | <JonathanNeal> | is there a way to see the state of the sorting? like .sorting // boolean ? |
| 01:02 | <TabAtkins> | What do you mean by "state of the sorting"? |
| 01:03 | <JonathanNeal> | well, what does stopSorting do? |
| 01:03 | <TabAtkins> | Removes all the sorted attributes from the <th>s in the table. |
| 01:03 | <JonathanNeal> | ah, it disables all sorting by actually removing all of the attributes? |
| 01:03 | <TabAtkins> | Yeah. |
| 01:03 | <JonathanNeal> | What an evil function. |
| 01:04 | <JonathanNeal> | 9. define sort() is that supposed to be sorted too? |
| 01:05 | <TabAtkins> | No, that's the function. It's named sort() on purpose. |
| 01:05 | <TabAtkins> | Hixie: How are you treating cells with a colspan? Do they belong to both columns? The first? |
| 01:06 | <JonathanNeal> | why not sortRow() ? |
| 01:08 | <TabAtkins> | It doens't sort a row, it sorts a column. |
| 01:08 | <TabAtkins> | And why add more than necessary? |
| 01:08 | <JonathanNeal> | just seems like cells and rows were labeled in other js |
| 01:08 | <JonathanNeal> | cellIndex, rowSpan. |
| 01:12 | <JonathanNeal> | rowIndex, cells, rows |
| 02:37 | <MikeSmith> | dammit |
| 02:37 | <MikeSmith> | is there some rule that a Location directive can't be the first directive in an .htaccess file? |
| 02:38 | <MikeSmith> | trying to fix a problem with http://w3c-test.org/html/ |
| 02:40 | <MikeSmith> | the Location directive is the only one in the file, but the error log says <Location not allowed here |
| 02:42 | MikeSmith | finds http://stackoverflow.com/questions/6667894/httaccess-location-not-allowed-here |
| 02:42 | <MikeSmith> | Location apparently not allowed in .htaccess at all |
| 03:52 | <JonathanNeal> | hola |
| 04:29 | <JonathanNeal> | Does the <th>. comparator compare the tds or their content? |
| 04:37 | <MikeSmith> | JonathanNeal: what's a comparator? |
| 04:38 | <JonathanNeal> | MikeSmith: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/temp http://oksoclap.com/whatwg-sortable-tables |
| 04:41 | <MikeSmith> | JonathanNeal: something Hixie posted to the list? |
| 04:41 | <JonathanNeal> | I was just following the conversation from earlier today. I don't know where else it has been posted. |
| 04:42 | <JonathanNeal> | Something TabAtkins, erlehmann, and Hixie were enjoying. |
| 04:42 | <erlehmann> | i am still sleepy and not sleeping |
| 04:47 | <JonathanNeal> | Is that why you denied my IIFE reduction (function (global) { /* never an instance of global */ })(this); ? |
| 05:03 | <erlehmann> | jonathanneal, i probably did overlook it |
| 05:57 | <Hixie> | TabAtkins: both |
| 06:03 | <Hixie> | JonathanNeal: good question... probably the elements, i guess |
| 06:09 | <zewt> | (collator is less of a mouthful than comparitor, don't know if that implies human-language-sorting for some people) |
| 06:13 | <zewt> | (just specifying sort keys handles a lot, though, and without the possible interop issues with a function being called in different orders for different sort implementations, or the weirdness of a function that might return an inconsistent ordering) |
| 06:17 | <zewt> | guess it'd just have to specify the entire sort algorithm, as annoying as that probably is |
| 06:24 | <erlehmann> | bobble bubble sort |
| 06:24 | <erlehmann> | i submit bogosort for examination! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bogosort |
| 06:25 | <erlehmann> | oh, better, sleep sort! http://dis.4chan.org/read/prog/1295544154 |
| 06:26 | <erlehmann> | > This is sort of like a simple bucket/radix sort but instead of using a space-based array, it's effectivly using a time-based "array" |
| 06:50 | <MikeSmith> | Hixie: looking back through the log at your conversation with jgraham about the title element, are you saying the title element must have non-empty text content? |
| 06:52 | <MikeSmith> | http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/elements.html#text-content says, "if the Text nodes are empty" |
| 06:53 | <MikeSmith> | implies that there is such a thing as an empty Text node |
| 06:54 | <MikeSmith> | in which case <title></title> would be conforming |
| 06:55 | <MikeSmith> | because nowhere does the spec say that it must a content a non-empty Text node |
| 06:55 | <MikeSmith> | *must contain a non-empty Text node |
| 06:56 | <MikeSmith> | it just says "Text", which could be empty |
| 07:40 | <Hixie> | MikeSmith: yeah but the parser won't give a text node for <title></title> |
| 07:41 | <Hixie> | you have to work pretty hard to get an empty text node :-) |
| 07:43 | <MikeSmith> | Hixie: ok |
| 07:43 | <MikeSmith> | still it's not clear in the current spec |
| 07:45 | <Hixie> | agreed |
| 07:45 | <MikeSmith> | should I file a bug? |
| 07:47 | <Hixie> | if you must :-P |
| 08:22 | <jgraham> | To be fair it does seem pretty weird that <title></title> is non-conforming, but <title></title><script>document.head.firstChild.appendChild(document.createTextNode("")</script> is conforming |
| 08:22 | <jgraham> | (if you imagine more parenthesis) |
| 08:26 | <Ms2ger> | krijn, logs down? |
| 08:45 | <MikeSmith> | I would be quite happy if we just dropped the requirement that every document have a title element |
| 08:46 | <MikeSmith> | I'm not sure that requirement is really helping anythign |
| 08:46 | <JonathanNeal> | Hixie: thanks for the answer, the elements. |
| 08:47 | <JonathanNeal> | Is there a situation where the tables sort themselves without javascript interaction? |
| 08:53 | <jgraham> | Yes, if it was up to me there wouldn't be a need for <title>, ever and Text content would be 0 or more text nodes |
| 08:59 | <JonathanNeal> | <title> isn't necessary in chromeless web apps, iframes, etc. |
| 08:59 | <JonathanNeal> | or rather, it isn't leveraged. |
| 09:03 | <MikeSmith> | Ms2ger: I think the w3c-test problem you pinged me about yesterday is fixed |
| 09:11 | <annevk> | JonathanNeal: yes, the user can sort the table by using the UI exposed by the user agent |
| 09:24 | <Ms2ger> | MikeSmith, looks like it is |
| 09:25 | <Ms2ger> | MikeSmith, it isn't replicating from github yet? |
| 09:26 | <MikeSmith> | Ms2ger: no not yet as far as I know |
| 09:26 | <MikeSmith> | I'll need to talk to darobin about that part |
| 09:27 | <MikeSmith> | hardre to automate the replication in this direction |
| 09:27 | <darobin> | hullo |
| 09:27 | <jgraham> | Really? |
| 09:27 | <MikeSmith> | need to set up some kind of hook without running it on github |
| 09:27 | <jgraham> | Add a commit hook to the github repo |
| 09:27 | <darobin> | jgraham: harder as in: if we do it with dvcs, there's already a script you can just link in on that machine :) |
| 09:27 | <jgraham> | That tells the W3C server to do a pull |
| 09:27 | <jgraham> | I guess it is harder |
| 09:28 | <darobin> | yes, he said harder, not hard |
| 09:28 | <jgraham> | In that it requires two machines to interact |
| 09:28 | <darobin> | setting up autopull is harder than ln -s, yes |
| 09:34 | <Stevef> | Hixie: while <hgroup> may not be going anywhere WHATWG wise it heading for the exit in HTML5 |
| 09:36 | <Ms2ger> | So, it's not going anywhere |
| 09:38 | <Stevef> | Ms2ger: depends on your coice of HTML brand |
| 09:38 | <MikeSmith> | I don't know what the normal best way to run an autopull as a hook is |
| 09:38 | <Stevef> | Hixie: see http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-admin/2012Dec/0073.html |
| 09:38 | <Stevef> | coice=choice |
| 09:47 | <annevk> | What's a sorted table going to look like DOM-wise? Will there be plenty of DOM mutations? |
| 09:47 | <annevk> | Can the sorting be animated somehow? |
| 09:49 | <annevk> | Stevef: if you keep it in parsing and the style sheet that seems hardly like removal |
| 09:49 | <Stevef> | annevk: sure, obsolete is a better term |
| 09:51 | <darobin> | you can't move hgroup out, I use it on my blog |
| 09:51 | <darobin> | you'd think that would be the final argument in this matter |
| 09:54 | <Stevef> | darobin: didn't realise you used it, changes my view of its utiility completely |
| 09:55 | <darobin> | thank you |
| 09:55 | <annevk> | As long as <time>, <nav>, and <footer> stay in I should be fine |
| 09:55 | <MikeSmith> | hcruft |
| 09:56 | <darobin> | I guess I could switch to subline for the usage I'm making of it |
| 09:57 | <darobin> | but that would require updating my blog |
| 09:57 | <darobin> | that's not what blogs are for |
| 09:57 | <Stevef> | darobin: teaseer |
| 09:58 | <annevk> | My blog still runs on some PHP I wrote five years ago or so... |
| 09:58 | <Stevef> | darobin: have shelved subline like hgroup doesn't meet the high bar... |
| 10:00 | <darobin> | annevk: hahaha, I can beat that — my blog is authored using a subset of polyglot that's processed to a static site using a mixture of Perl and XSLT some elements of which probably haven't changed in a good decade |
| 10:01 | <darobin> | I'm not even sure I'd know how to update it if I had to |
| 10:01 | <annevk> | Uhuh, that's why I'm not changing much either. Although I have removed stuff over time, such as comments. |
| 10:02 | <darobin> | Stevef: I know, but grouped headings (using whatever) make lots of sense to me |
| 10:03 | <darobin> | then again, I also like the outlining algorithm so I guess my opinion does not matter |
| 10:03 | <MikeSmith> | I can think of lots of inelegant/klunky ways of automating sync from github to dvcs.w3.org .. I guess you alls plan is to go with the least inelegant |
| 10:05 | <Stevef> | darobin: the problem i have and have always had with hgroup is that its required acc mappings in html make any amount of headings and whatever else is in hgroup which can be link lists or any other stuff (as seen in wild), into one big heading |
| 10:05 | <MikeSmith> | I like that algorithm so well I spent hours rewriting somebody else's broken implementation of it to make it actually conform to the spec |
| 10:05 | <Stevef> | darobin: so rather than add semantics for AT users it maskes them |
| 10:07 | <darobin> | Stevef: but I don't think that's necessarily inherent to hgroup — we could think of better ways of AT exposing it |
| 10:08 | <Stevef> | darobin: that is if the acc mappings were implemented which they are not, instead it encourages authros to add heading markup where they often times did not, making heading navigation less useful for AT usersand adding cognitive noise |
| 10:11 | <Stevef> | darobin: sure that was my original course, but it got nixed, <hgroup><hx>heading</hx><p>subheading<p></hgroup> would be much friendlier without the semantic cruft and nosie issues (if hgroup> p = subheading semantic and not <hx> heading subheading</hx> as currently specced |
| 10:11 | <Stevef> | nosie=noise |
| 10:12 | <darobin> | mmmmm |
| 10:13 | <darobin> | Stevef: so essentially the difference between <hgroup><h2>sub</h2><h1>main</h1></hgroup> and <hgroup><p>sub</p><h1>main</h1></hgroup> is to help the transition based on existing AT implementation? |
| 10:17 | <Stevef> | darobin: no not really, the current acc requirements in spec are borked, both of the above result in 1 heading, the current hgroup definition is ( i think is suboptimal in general) it promotes a markup pattern that adds unecessary headings |
| 10:24 | <Stevef> | darobin: if identifying a subheading meets the bar then we should define a way to do that,not define a way to obscure subheading semantics |
| 10:27 | <darobin> | Stevef: sure, but there are two different issues here that I'm trying to disentangle |
| 10:27 | <Stevef> | ok |
| 10:27 | <darobin> | 1) is that the current acc reqs are unhelpful — that's something that can be changed without touching hgroup |
| 10:27 | <darobin> | because you can keep all that's there, and simply change how it is recommended to be exposed |
| 10:28 | <darobin> | 2) is what you said about using <p> for subheading in hgroup rather than reusing existing hx |
| 10:33 | <Stevef> | darobin: hgroup did not pave a cowpath authors sometimes used a heading to indicate a subheading, sometimes used a p or a div or some other element, use of a container to semantically associate heading and subheading was not a clear pattern if you look at data collected after the fact to support hgroup it shows this http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Hgroup_element |
| 10:39 | <darobin> | well it's hard to pave a cowpath when the cows go all over the palce |
| 10:39 | <darobin> | *place |
| 10:40 | <Stevef> | darobin: The real world examples show that authors do not as a general rule put a container element only around headings and subheadings, subtitles, taglines and bylines. they use a variety of markup structures, in most cases the grouping structure reflects the existing HTML5 header element. -> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/hgroup#Rationale ignore the subline bits |
| 10:40 | <Stevef> | darobin: right and they go all over the place for reasons |
| 10:41 | <darobin> | sure, the usage of interest maps to header more than anything else |
| 10:45 | <Stevef> | i think subheading semantic only deserves a 'common idiom with no specific markup feature' makeover until the feature actually solves a problem other than masking subheadings for an outline algorithm that is of itself marginal |
| 10:45 | <Stevef> | but thats just me |
| 10:49 | <darobin> | I don't think the outline algorithm is marginal, it's useful (and could be used more often) |
| 10:49 | <darobin> | I'm guessing you could replace hgroup with header for that purpose though |
| 10:50 | <Stevef> | darobin: question is are user agents planning to implement the outline algorithm? |
| 10:50 | <darobin> | it doesn't seem like the hottest topic in UA land right now |
| 10:51 | <darobin> | it would be more useful if it had CSS selectors to match |
| 10:51 | <darobin> | right now processing structured HTML that doesn't use section is a real pita |
| 10:52 | <Stevef> | darobin: one user agent has = JAWS, but its implementation is borked and they ignore hgroup |
| 10:52 | <darobin> | well, I'm not sure that counts then :) |
| 10:54 | <MikeSmith> | if the language provided some way for authors to automatically include an ouline in a document (e.g., as a ToC), then that would be something that UAs could implement it for |
| 10:54 | <MikeSmith> | right now there is no hook for authors to do anything with it |
| 10:54 | <Stevef> | darobin: don't get me started on section... its the noisy div |
| 10:58 | <Stevef> | darobin: in general i think that now we have some usage data on the new structural elements its time to start analysing and revising the author advice and requirements in HTML of those elements based on real world usage, so that we can hopefully optimize the positives of use |
| 10:59 | <darobin> | yes, it would be a good idea to look back on actual usage |
| 10:59 | <Stevef> | or at least attempt to influence those in the html5 book industry who tell authors how to use the stuff |
| 10:59 | darobin | <3 section |
| 10:59 | <darobin> | you're just using that as an excuse to go have a beer with Bruce |
| 11:00 | <darobin> | MikeSmith: I agree that exposing outline information would be useful |
| 11:00 | <darobin> | it's an open question whether it would be useful enough overall, but I for one would use it |
| 11:01 | <MikeSmith> | darobin: it doesn't seem like many authors are clamoring for it |
| 11:01 | <darobin> | no |
| 11:01 | <MikeSmith> | or maybe they have been and I just ignored it |
| 11:01 | <Stevef> | darobin: :-) well thats on my HTML WG activity plan for 2013 getting discussion on and changes made |
| 11:01 | <MikeSmith> | seems pretty useful to me personally too |
| 11:01 | <darobin> | Stevef++ # good plan |
| 11:02 | <darobin> | MikeSmith: yeah, same here, but then I look for instance at the features in in-browser HTML editors and they don't support anything for structured content |
| 11:02 | <Stevef> | darobin: i wanna be part of the W3C do-ocracy like you guys |
| 11:02 | <darobin> | people seem generally happy in the unstructured Word-like morass |
| 11:02 | <darobin> | haha |
| 11:03 | <jgraham> | Stevef++ # - is that some new programming langauge for .net? |
| 11:04 | <Stevef> | jgraham: if you had access to the secret lists you would understand |
| 11:05 | <Stevef> | jgrahaM: its the sign for a handshake of sorts only its not only shaking hands |
| 11:06 | <jgraham> | Shaking what you say? |
| 11:06 | jgraham | tries to shake off unpleasant images |
| 11:17 | <othermaciej> | Stevef: when you have a paired heading and subheading (however it is marked up), is it most useful for assistive technology, when reading the heading for a section, to: (a) present only the heading; (b) present the heading and subheading with no major distinction; (c ) present both and associate them together, but distinguish heading from subheading? |
| 11:19 | <othermaciej> | Stevef: for (a), non-heading markup for the subhead would be most legacy compatible, while for (b) or (c ) it would be best to make the subhead a child of the main heading I think |
| 11:22 | <othermaciej> | but it seems like both <hgroup> and the alternate proposals have neither of these properties, and would cause older assistive technologies to present multiple separate headings as if there were an immediate subsection or something |
| 11:23 | <Ms2ger> | Always fun when you start reading a www-style email and suddenly "Kind regards, Adam Sobieski" |
| 11:35 | <Stevef> | othermaciej: my thinking is that if something is a subheading, tagline etc to provide an indicator of that in the acc mapping and let the AT and ultimately user decide how it is presented and consumed, the major consideration is to providing the distinction |
| 11:39 | <Ms2ger> | annevk, is the xref repo up to date? |
| 11:42 | <Stevef> | othermaciej: that is what is not provided for as specced currently. I also think if <hx>heading <element>subheading</element><hx> was the pattern we wouldn't be seeing <hgroup><hx>heading</hx></hgroup> which is not uncommon from the data i have looked at and also reduce this <hgroup> <hx>heading</hx> other structured content and linsk and controls ... ... </hgroup> which is less common but... |
| 11:42 | <Stevef> | ...still enough to be a problem |
| 11:45 | <annevk> | Ms2ger: maybe not |
| 11:45 | <annevk> | Ms2ger: will sync now |
| 11:47 | <annevk> | Ms2ger: done btw |
| 11:54 | <Stevef> | othermaciej: it should also be noted that as specced there is no distinction in the way <hgroup> is presented for AT users as in the page view or outline view are the same, which is not the case for non AT users |
| 11:59 | <annevk> | Ms2ger: whoa, that email is out there |
| 12:00 | <annevk> | Ms2ger: any other gems on www-style this month? |
| 12:04 | <Ms2ger> | I think he's sent a few more lately |
| 12:05 | <Ms2ger> | And thanks :) |
| 12:06 | <annevk> | Ms2ger: you're gonna write some spec text again? :) |
| 12:07 | <Ms2ger> | Yeah, one word :) |
| 12:07 | <SimonSapin> | annevk: what is it about www-style? |
| 12:08 | <annevk> | SimonSapin: are you pinged whenever we mention CSS or www-style? :) |
| 12:08 | <annevk> | SimonSapin: but there's nothing, Ms2ger just pointed out an email |
| 12:08 | <Ms2ger> | Is SimonSapin secretly glazou? |
| 12:08 | <Velmont> | Just like I was for encoding for a long while... :S |
| 12:10 | <SimonSapin> | annevk: no, but I often look around here |
| 12:10 | <SimonSapin> | Ms2ger: glazou can confirm that I’m not him ;) |
| 12:13 | <annevk> | I think I've seen them in the same room... Although on IRC you never know of course |
| 12:23 | <darobin> | I've seen them in the same room, but then again they're both French and into CSS, so maybe they're brothers, or cousins, or something |
| 12:27 | <annevk> | Ms2ger: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=672190 was never actually fixed right? |
| 12:27 | <annevk> | Ms2ger: at least, http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/search?string=expandEntityReferences seems to suggest it's still very much alive |
| 12:29 | <Ms2ger> | Partly |
| 12:30 | <Ms2ger> | The creator argument was removed |
| 12:31 | <annevk> | yeah but this was very much about the attribute |
| 12:31 | <annevk> | reopening |
| 13:56 | <Stevef> | nice to see bug to implement <main> in Firefox has been assigned https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=820508 |
| 14:32 | <SimonSapin> | darobin: as you well know, all french people are cousins |
| 14:36 | <darobin> | wesh wesh, ça va cousin? |
| 14:38 | <jgraham> | So "Liberty, fraternity, equality" was actually just code for inbreeding? |
| 14:41 | <annevk> | MikeSmith: any chance https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?product=WebAppsWG&component=URL can be removed now it's empty? |
| 14:41 | <annevk> | (sorry for the bugspam everyone) |
| 14:42 | <Ms2ger> | please make a proposal on public-webapps |
| 14:55 | <SimonSapin> | annevk: updated http://simonsapin.github.com/data-urls/ for percent-decode |
| 14:55 | <MikeSmith> | annevk: I'll ask Art again but pretty sure the answer is going to be know. if i unilaterally remove it, i reckon they're just going to ask me to out it back. and/or rope in plh into the discussion. WebApps WG i |
| 14:55 | <MikeSmith> | |
| 14:55 | <MikeSmith> | |
| 14:57 | <annevk> | something got lost there |
| 14:57 | <annevk> | but thanks |
| 14:57 | <annevk> | SimonSapin: can you close the bug too? |
| 14:57 | <SimonSapin> | closed |
| 14:57 | <annevk> | lol VLC has a Christmas hat |
| 14:58 | <annevk> | someone pointed out to me duckduckgo.com also has a nice logo today |
| 15:23 | <a-ja> | hmmm...<main> but no <banner>? yet? |
| 15:30 | <stevefaulkner> | a-ja:there is history behind that (in regards to Firefox implementation) I believe it will be revisited in light of <header> usage data and the implementation in webkit |
| 15:35 | <a-ja> | anyone mention to bing/yahoo lately that their webmaster seo optimization report still complains about multiple <h1>'s ? |
| 15:36 | a-ja | sighs |
| 15:37 | <stevefaulkner> | a-ja: history https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=610650 |
| 15:40 | darobin | sighs |
| 15:40 | <darobin> | you'd think browsers would have become better at detecting that your JS is just spinning by now |
| 15:41 | <darobin> | "oh my! this thing has been blocking the event loop for ten minutes now, it must be doing something really important — let's not disturb it then" |
| 15:42 | <a-ja> | stevefaulkner: i'm aware (i'm the 1 vote in that bug...though mainly for my tracking, rather than any indication pro/con) |
| 15:42 | <jgraham> | darobin: Which browser? |
| 15:42 | <darobin> | in this case Firefox, but I'm seeing similar behaviour elsewhere |
| 15:43 | <darobin> | (haven't tried Opera in this case though tbh) |
| 15:43 | <jgraham> | Well firefox usually puts up a "stop this script" dialog |
| 15:43 | <darobin> | only under certain circumstances, I get the impression only the really simple ones |
| 15:44 | <stevefaulkner> | a-ja: cool, I was talking with dave bolter about it the other day and want to re-open with a view to getting header > banner |
| 15:44 | <Ms2ger> | It should always put that up if we don't return to the event loop |
| 15:45 | <jgraham> | Opera has an interruptable script engine so it doesn't have a slow script dialog, but it should be possible to keep interacting with the browser when the script is running |
| 15:46 | <jgraham> | Chromium helpfully allows you to kill the render process after a while |
| 15:49 | <darobin> | Ms2ger: I've clearly noticed an endless loop of functions that just keep calling one another here, and FF never gives me the slow script dialog |
| 15:49 | <darobin> | it's forcing me to use the debugger *shudders* |
| 15:52 | <darobin> | it's really weird because I'd expect to blow the stack pretty quickly |
| 15:53 | <jgraham> | darobin: Well if you are doing something like (function f() {setTimeout(f,0)})() that might not be detected |
| 15:53 | <darobin> | no, there's no timeout |
| 15:54 | <darobin> | it's a bunch of closures calling one another |
| 15:54 | <Ms2ger> | Which version? |
| 15:54 | <darobin> | 17.0.1 |
| 15:54 | <Ms2ger> | Hrm |
| 15:54 | <Ms2ger> | Want to file? |
| 15:54 | <jgraham> | Nothing else that would spin the event loop, I assume? |
| 15:54 | <darobin> | I probably will, but I need to dig a little deeper |
| 15:55 | <darobin> | jgraham: nope, it's very straightforward DOM plus algo steps |
| 15:55 | <darobin> | it might be something else: when I try to reload while in the debugger it spins anyway |
| 15:58 | <darobin> | ok, just tweaking some comments makes Chrome behave differently — I think I'm on to something :) |
| 16:07 | <JonathanNeal> | goodmorning |
| 16:44 | <zewt> | death to @id |
| 17:04 | <volkmar> | "The algorithm to convert a string to a number, given a string input, is as follows: If parsing a date from input results in an error, then return an error"... what does does "return an error" means here |
| 17:04 | <volkmar> | (4.10.7.1.8) |
| 17:09 | <annevk> | it means to return "an error" to the calling site |
| 17:09 | <annevk> | "an error" being an abstract concept the calling site does something with |
| 17:10 | <volkmar> | annevk: I have no idea what should really be returned |
| 17:10 | <volkmar> | spaghetti specs :( |
| 17:10 | <annevk> | volkmar: what are you trying to implement? |
| 17:11 | <volkmar> | hmm, I think I found i |
| 17:11 | <volkmar> | it |
| 17:12 | <volkmar> | valueAsNumber and valueAsDate for type='date' |
| 17:13 | <dglazkov> | good morning, Whatwg! |
| 17:14 | <annevk> | volkmar: seems like they say that if error is returned you have to return NaN and null respectively |
| 17:14 | <volkmar> | annevk: saw that |
| 17:15 | <volkmar> | for type='number', I did that |
| 17:15 | <volkmar> | but that spec is so hard too read |
| 17:16 | <annevk> | I'm not a big fan of how Hixie defined HTML forms either, but I know how it works... |
| 17:17 | <volkmar> | I'm Jon Snow, I know nothing :( |
| 17:18 | Ms2ger | sends volkmar to the wall |
| 17:18 | <zewt> | http://i.imgur.com/41lcs.png i'm sure glad i spent years of my youth learning not to make typos, just so google could add them back in |
| 17:20 | <annevk> | zewt: maybe you need to tell Google a bit more about yourself and then they'll realize you're not the same as the people making that typo |
| 17:23 | <zewt> | will my social and bank records be sufficient |
| 17:35 | <jwalden> | is there anything special about the scope chain for <body onload="..." that it wouldn't have document on it? http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/webappapis.html#event-handler-content-attributes seems to say it should have document there, but in my tests I'm not seeing it there |
| 17:37 | <jwalden> | e.g. http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/2038 would, if document is there, print [object HTMLCollection] or something stupid |
| 17:38 | <Ms2ger> | Yeah |
| 17:39 | <Ms2ger> | body onload="" sets a handler on window |
| 17:39 | <jwalden> | dangit |
| 17:39 | <jwalden> | I guess I can add a fake form and get what I want here, or something |
| 17:49 | <Ms2ger> | MikeSmith, did I dream this, or is http://www.w3c-test.org/html/ broken again? |
| 17:53 | <zewt> | heh, i should figure out how to get rid of the annoying bookmark star thing in firefox |
| 17:53 | <zewt> | i never use it to bookmark things, but i accidentally bookmark things all the time, and it's an asymmetric button--i can't just click it again to undo |
| 17:54 | <jwalden> | Esc |
| 17:54 | jwalden | learns that form.submit() doesn't trigger onsubmit="", dies a little |
| 17:55 | <tantek> | oh yeah, that's a good one. |
| 17:55 | zewt | remembers that evernote will let you write out a whole note, then when you try to save tell you "you need to update! click here to reload!" and lose the whole thing, dies again |
| 17:56 | <zewt> | (mental note: find a less horrible notepad thing) |
| 17:58 | tantek | gave up on evernote immediately upon launching it when it wanted him to create an account. Um no, I just wanted to take a few notes quickly, don't bother me with that crap. |
| 17:59 | <zewt> | er, taking notes without some way to ... log back in to retrieve them later doesn't sound useful, heh |
| 18:00 | <tantek> | I'll decide later if I want to use it on a 2nd device. |
| 18:00 | <zewt> | device? webpage |
| 18:00 | <tantek> | webpage? localstorage. |
| 18:00 | <zewt> | haha no |
| 18:00 | <tantek> | haha yes. offline FTW. |
| 18:00 | <jgraham> | Well IndexedDB these days |
| 18:01 | <tantek> | jgraham - yes, that :) |
| 18:01 | <zewt> | never ever put anything in localstorage that can't be regenerated by other means |
| 18:01 | <zewt> | unless you're okay with a notepad app that will randomly lose all of your notes |
| 18:01 | <tantek> | jgraham is right, I misspoke and meant indexeddb. |
| 18:01 | <jgraham> | But I agree that asking for an account before you get to try the product is obnoxious, especially when things want an email address |
| 18:02 | <zewt> | no form of local storage will be immune to browsers flushing it down the toilet arbitrarily |
| 18:02 | <jwalden> | any Opera people around who could explain why http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/2039 logs false rather than true? it's like evaluating document.all at different times produces non-equal objects, but that doesn't make any sense |
| 18:02 | <jgraham> | No, but you can easilly have a "save to the cloud" checkbox that requires you to create an account |
| 18:02 | <tantek> | jgraham++ |
| 18:02 | <jwalden> | webkit logs true, Gecko logs true (possibly because of my local patches) |
| 18:03 | <zewt> | no, you shouldn't even give the option to *only* store important user data in local storage |
| 18:03 | <zewt> | users don't understand the idea of "if you use this, your data might randomly disappear" |
| 18:03 | <jgraham> | Well |
| 18:03 | <jgraham> | I wouldn't mind if it was called "trail mode" |
| 18:03 | <jgraham> | *trial |
| 18:04 | <jgraham> | And I would have to create an account to get non-trial mode |
| 18:06 | jwalden | tweaks that slightly to http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/2040 |
| 18:07 | <jgraham> | jwalden: all doesn't resolve to document.all in the event handler |
| 18:08 | <jgraham> | Or, it didn't on the first TC |
| 18:08 | <jwalden> | jgraham: why not? document's on the scope chain before you reach the global |
| 18:08 | <jgraham> | I haven't looked at the new one much but it seems to there? |
| 18:08 | <jwalden> | first/second are not different in the interesting bits, I think |
| 18:09 | <jwalden> | IE seems to produce different document.all values as well, oddly |
| 18:10 | jwalden | tweaks even further to http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/2041 to log the different all-values observed |
| 18:10 | <jgraham> | Uh |
| 18:10 | <jgraham> | I can't reproduce my earlier result |
| 18:12 | <jwalden> | or is all maybe a property of every element in IE/Opera, hmm |
| 18:12 | jwalden | can't remember if all is on everything in some browsers |
| 18:13 | <jwalden> | oh, that's it |
| 18:13 | <jgraham> | Yes |
| 18:13 | <jgraham> | Good deduction :) |
| 18:14 | <volkmar> | Hixie: ping |
| 18:15 | <jwalden> | well, at least I understand the behavior difference in the testcase I actually care about now |
| 18:21 | <TabAtkins> | Woo, second Formal Friday is off to a good start. |
| 18:32 | jwalden | will not be caught dead in a suit |
| 18:32 | <jwalden> | anyone who tries it will get written out of my will |
| 18:33 | <TabAtkins> | But it's so much fun! |
| 18:33 | <TabAtkins> | One looks so fancy in a suit. ^_^ |
| 18:38 | <jgraham> | That one is wilhelm. The rest of the population shouldn't bother |
| 18:40 | <jgraham> | Last time I went to a wedding I was made to wear a suit under protest. It turned out to be entirely unnecessary. I was not impressed |
| 18:40 | <TabAtkins> | jgraham: Man, you'd look distinguished as hell in a suit. You've got great hair for it. |
| 18:41 | <TabAtkins> | Pony-tail it with a dark-gray suit, perhaps. |
| 20:02 | <Hixie> | volkmar: sup |
| 20:37 | <Hixie> | i want a callback that returns -1, 0, or 1 (a comparator) -- what should I define its return type as? |
| 20:37 | <Hixie> | there's no way to define a type like "-1..1" in WebIDL right? |
| 20:38 | <Hixie> | "byte"? |
| 20:38 | <TabAtkins> | Hixie: No you don't. You want one that returns a number, and then you use the fact that it's 0, positive, or negative. |
| 20:38 | <Hixie> | so double? |
| 20:38 | <TabAtkins> | Yeah. |
| 20:38 | <Hixie> | fair enough |
| 20:39 | <TabAtkins> | That way simple comparators like function(a,b) { return b - a; } work. |
| 20:39 | <Hixie> | right |
| 20:39 | <Hixie> | except a and b are HTMLTableCellElements in this case, but sure |
| 20:40 | <TabAtkins> | function(a,b) { return +b.textContent - +a.textContent; } |
| 20:42 | <TabAtkins> | Actually, you can remove the +'s. The strings will automatically get cast to numbers to satisfy the type requirements of -. |
| 20:51 | <volkmar> | Hixie: still around? |
| 20:51 | <Hixie> | yup |
| 20:51 | <volkmar> | Hixie: so, I have a question regarding @step |
| 20:51 | <Hixie> | pray ask your question sir |
| 20:52 | <tantek> | got to remember that one |
| 20:53 | <volkmar> | we do agree that step can be a flat for things like <ninput type='number'>? |
| 20:53 | <volkmar> | (sorry, my server has some connections issues) |
| 20:53 | <Hixie> | flat? |
| 20:53 | <volkmar> | like <input type='number' step='0.1'> would allow values with one decimal, right? |
| 20:53 | <Hixie> | oh float? |
| 20:53 | <volkmar> | float |
| 20:53 | <Hixie> | sounds right, let me check the spec though |
| 20:54 | <Hixie> | The step attribute, if specified, must either have a value that is a valid floating-point number that parses to a number that is greater than zero, or must have a value that is an ASCII case-insensitive match for the string "any". |
| 20:54 | <Hixie> | so yes. |
| 20:54 | <Hixie> | in fact it can always be a float |
| 20:54 | <Hixie> | assuming it applies at all |
| 20:54 | <volkmar> | Hixie: so what should happen if it's things like <input type='date'> |
| 20:54 | <volkmar> | if I follow strictly the specs, step=1.5 means it will allow 2 dates out of 3 |
| 20:55 | <Hixie> | http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#the-step-attribute defines this in detail, but the basic idea is each type= value defines the units for step="" |
| 20:55 | <volkmar> | (my question was just an introduction for date...) |
| 20:55 | <Hixie> | so e.g. type=month says the scale factor is 1 (1 month) |
| 20:55 | <Hixie> | Spec says "The step attribute is expressed in days. The step scale factor is 86,400,000 (which converts the days to milliseconds, as used in the other algorithms). The default step is 1 day." for type=date. |
| 20:57 | <Hixie> | are you going to ask what step=1.5 means for type=date? |
| 20:57 | <Hixie> | if so, iirc it basically means the same as step=3 |
| 20:57 | <volkmar> | Hixie: ok, then we agree |
| 20:58 | <volkmar> | Hixie: that's what current patches in Gecko do |
| 20:58 | <Hixie> | sweet |
| 20:58 | <volkmar> | but Webkit and Presto don't do that |
| 20:58 | <volkmar> | and don't implement the same thing |
| 20:58 | <Hixie> | booo |
| 20:58 | <Hixie> | what do they do? |
| 20:58 | <volkmar> | Hixie: IIRC, Webkit rounds the step to the nearest integer and Presto floor it |
| 20:59 | <Hixie> | well that's just lame and clearly they're ignore the spec and should be appropriately remarked upon |
| 20:59 | <Hixie> | ignoring, even |
| 20:59 | <Hixie> | file bugs, i guess (on them) |
| 20:59 | <volkmar> | yeah, I guess I will |
| 20:59 | <Hixie> | thanks |
| 20:59 | <volkmar> | just wanted to make sure I understood it right |
| 21:00 | <Hixie> | well nothing in the spec says to round anything for step |
| 21:00 | <Hixie> | so regardless of whether you and i are reading the spec right, they're definitely wrong if they round |
| 21:00 | <volkmar> | sure |
| 21:00 | <Hixie> | the only real thing in the spec that makes step="" do anything is "When the element has an allowed value step, and the result of applying the algorithm to convert a string to a number to the string given by the element's value is a number, and that number subtracted from the step base is not an integral multiple of the allowed value step, the element is suffering from a step mismatch." |
| 21:01 | <Hixie> | which seems pretty unambiguous, if not necessarily the clearest prose ever |
| 21:47 | <yroc> | Anyone know anything about the definition/rationale behind "palpable" content? I couldn't find anything in the mailing list. |
| 22:01 | <Hixie> | yroc! |
| 22:01 | <Hixie> | sorry dude, kept missing you |
| 22:01 | <yroc> | Oh, there you are! |
| 22:03 | <yroc> | So I was interested in content types, especially palpable and flow. |
| 22:04 | <yroc> | There's no definition for either in the spec... |
| 22:04 | <yroc> | Or I should say no conceptual (intensional) defintion -- just a listing of elements. |
| 22:05 | <Hixie> | true |
| 22:06 | <Hixie> | palpable is intended to address the problem that we don't want things like <ul> <li>TEST <li> </ul> to not be caught |
| 22:06 | <Hixie> | but at the same time we don't want to make <ul></ul> or <ul><li><li></ul> to be completely invalid |
| 22:06 | <yroc> | Sorry, not to be "caught"? |
| 22:07 | <Hixie> | by a validator, sorry |
| 22:07 | <yroc> | OK |
| 22:07 | <Hixie> | the former because it's obviously a mistake (<li> instead of </li>), the second because it might be intentioally for a script to fill in |
| 22:07 | <Hixie> | intentionally |
| 22:08 | <yroc> | You mean a script to intentionally fill in the closing li tag? |
| 22:09 | <TabAtkins> | Scripts can't fill in a closing tag (tags don't exist in the dom). He means fill in the contents. |
| 22:10 | <yroc> | Oh, because the closing tag for li is optional? |
| 22:10 | <yroc> | IOW, "<li>content" is valid? |
| 22:16 | <yroc> | OK, what about flow content? What would be the rationale for this type? |
| 22:17 | <Hixie> | yroc: i meant like a template where the page just has some empty list items but the author is later expected, or a script is later expected, to add content to the list items |
| 22:18 | <Hixie> | the "flow" content model is just the content model we use to represent most normal content |
| 22:18 | <Hixie> | like paragraphs or text |
| 22:18 | <Hixie> | it's just the name we give for what <body> can contain, basically |
| 22:26 | <yroc> | Why is <ins> palpable, but <del> isn't? |
| 22:29 | <yroc> | Or is it because you can't later add something to <del>, by definition? |
| 22:51 | <Hixie> | yroc: other way around |
| 22:51 | <Hixie> | yroc: it means that <del> doesn't count as palpable content |
| 22:51 | <Hixie> | yroc: so e.g. <p><del>x</del></p> is "empty" like if it was <p></p> for the purposes of the discussion above |
| 22:55 | <JonathanNeal> | Someone showed me a way to do <source src="i/pr6.webm" type='video/webm; codecs="vp8,vorbis"'> without singles quotes, but I've forgotten how. Does anyone here know? |
| 22:55 | <yroc> | So you're saying that <del> isn't palpable because even if it's filled in, it still counts as empty? |
| 22:57 | <yroc> | Whereas <ins> is palpable, because it's not empty when later filled in. And this is simply due to the semantics of ins and del? |
| 23:00 | <Hixie> | yroc: well i'm saying if your paragraph only contains a <del>, it's not palpable (as in, it's effectively empty) |
| 23:00 | <Hixie> | yroc: <ins> is just like <span>, it's <del> that's the exception |
| 23:00 | <Hixie> | yroc: because it represents removed content |
| 23:01 | <Hixie> | JonathanNeal: " can be written as ", maybe that's it? |
| 23:01 | <JonathanNeal> | You can just drop the quotes altogether, actually. |
| 23:01 | <Hixie> | ah ok |
| 23:02 | <JonathanNeal> | It works and mdn shows it off @ https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/HTML/Using_HTML5_audio_and_video |
| 23:02 | <JonathanNeal> | However, I'm thinking it has some validation issues. |
| 23:03 | <yroc> | Hixie: right, got you. |
| 23:04 | <JonathanNeal> | Yay for all attributes having double quotes again. |
| 23:04 | <zewt> | (better, no quotes) |
| 23:04 | <JonathanNeal> | zewt: maybe after a minified, but not as source. |
| 23:04 | <JonathanNeal> | *minifier |
| 23:05 | <zewt> | minifiers need to not exist, and yeah, it's a good thing in source |
| 23:05 | <zewt> | so much cleaner to read html without unnecessary quotes everywhere |
| 23:05 | <JonathanNeal> | I think you're in the minority with that preference. I have looked at a lot of code in practice without quotes and it was awful. |
| 23:06 | <zewt> | i'd call that habit more than anything else |
| 23:06 | <zewt> | <img src=dude.jpg width=100 height=100>, very clean |
| 23:07 | <JonathanNeal> | Quotes are more consistent, and as a matter of preference, I prefer to see the uniformed delimiters. |
| 23:07 | <JonathanNeal> | <img src="dude.jpg" width="100" height="100">, still very clean |
| 23:07 | <zewt> | less clean :) |
| 23:07 | <JonathanNeal> | MOAR CLEEN! |
| 23:07 | <zewt> | mister clean |
| 23:08 | <JonathanNeal> | tobias? |
| 23:08 | <JonathanNeal> | vin disel? |
| 23:09 | <Hixie> | ok seriously |
| 23:09 | <Hixie> | i don't get it |
| 23:09 | <Hixie> | what sequence of events leads to people filing bugs like these? https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20469 |
| 23:10 | <zewt> | "trolling" |
| 23:10 | <Hixie> | doubt it |
| 23:10 | <JonathanNeal> | That's nice of you to respond, Hixie. |
| 23:11 | <Hixie> | they even created an account with the spec's system first |
| 23:11 | <Hixie> | and have a bugzilla account |
| 23:11 | <Hixie> | since it cc'ed them |
| 23:12 | <JonathanNeal> | You're getting a Facebook post for this. |
| 23:12 | <JonathanNeal> | So everybody knows what a nice guy you are. |
| 23:15 | <Hixie> | ok seriously, wtf. as far as i can tell, they went to the spec directly, not e.g. through a google search or whatnot |
| 23:15 | <Hixie> | and they had the spec open for hours before submitting this feedback |
| 23:17 | <Hixie> | hm, according to the logs there's another bug they filed |
| 23:17 | <Hixie> | a day earlier |
| 23:18 | <Hixie> | sure enough, https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20467 |
| 23:20 | <JonathanNeal> | That was good of you to mark it as a duplicate. |
| 23:20 | <Hixie> | it's not the first time we've had questions like this |
| 23:20 | <Hixie> | i don't understand what sequence of thoughts leads to this |
| 23:20 | <JonathanNeal> | I think it's a serious problem. We should probably call Apple. |
| 23:21 | <Hixie> | i don't mean lost iphones, i mean questions that really should be directed towards the authorities or hospitals or whatnot |
| 23:21 | <JonathanNeal> | BREAKING NEWS: SPEC BUG RESULTS IN LOST IPHONE |
| 23:21 | <zewt> | my hair is on fire, what should i do |
| 23:22 | <JonathanNeal> | MOAR CLEEN! |
| 23:22 | <Hixie> | if we understood how/why this kept happening, we could do something to help them better, is all |
| 23:22 | <Hixie> | and that might reduce our bogus bug rate |
| 23:28 | <JonathanNeal> | I know what will fix it. |
| 23:28 | <JonathanNeal> | <main> |
| 23:44 | <Hixie> | http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html is funny. most used words: 1. would, 3. should, 6. could. |
| 23:44 | <gavin> | heh |
| 23:46 | <Hixie> | in other news, i can't write html for shit |
| 23:47 | <Hixie> | "</code>th<code>" |
| 23:48 | <JonathanNeal> | That's not a good way to do RTL, Hixie. |
| 23:49 | <JonathanNeal> | Hixie: would you want .style = "display:block" instead of .style.cssText = "display:block" ? |
| 23:50 | <Hixie> | yes |
| 23:50 | <Hixie> | (PutForwards would solve this nice and easily) |
| 23:50 | <Hixie> | (but apparently only I like that) |
| 23:50 | <Hixie> | come to think of it |
| 23:51 | <Hixie> | that would be in the HTML spec, huh |
| 23:51 | <Hixie> | i could just put that in there and see if anyone bites |
| 23:52 | <Hixie> | https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20484 if people want to stop me |
| 23:54 | <JonathanNeal> | "I can polyfill that" |
| 23:58 | <Hixie> | i assume <table onsort> shouldn't bubble, right? (canceling it aborts the sort) |
| 23:59 | <JonathanNeal> | Right. You wouldn't want it bubbling up to the table that was wrapping it. |
| 23:59 | <JonathanNeal> | Or any other element. |
