| 00:03 | <JonathanNeal> | ( in the event you had a table in a table ) |
| 00:04 | <JonathanNeal> | Also, "style" won't take when defineProperty'd on Node, Element, or HTMLElement. |
| 00:06 | <Velmont> | Hm. If I hadn't used both odinho and Velmont as nick, I'd be on the list and not have two entries on the "didn't really make the cut". :-) |
| 00:10 | <JonathanNeal> | makes me wonder about creating a .css that returns the computedStyle but also accepts being overwritten. |
| 00:20 | <Hixie> | if a <table> has a <thead> with some <th>s in it, and then has some <tr>s and <tbody>s interspaced (as in, tr, tr, tbody-with-tr-tr-tr, tr, tr, another tbody-with-tr-tr, etc), and you try to sort a column |
| 00:20 | <Hixie> | the trs in each tbody need to be sorted within the tbody |
| 00:20 | <Hixie> | the tbodies don't move themselves |
| 00:20 | <Hixie> | but what about the trs that are children of the table itself? |
| 00:20 | <Hixie> | do they sort all together and end up above the tbodies? |
| 00:21 | <Hixie> | do they sort only within the sequence they're in? |
| 00:21 | <Hixie> | so first we sort the first two trs, then the tbody's three trs, then the two trs, then the next tbody's trs, etc? |
| 01:03 | <TabAtkins> | Oh man, you actually care about which tbody the tr is in? |
| 01:03 | <TabAtkins> | :/ |
| 01:03 | <Hixie> | only because it's the easiest solution so far, i'm wide open to being convinced we should do otherwise |
| 01:03 | <TabAtkins> | I have no opinion on whether you should sort the naked trs all together or per-sequence. |
| 01:04 | <TabAtkins> | Right solution is to rewrite the dom into a single tbody containing all the sorted rows. ^_^ |
| 01:04 | <zewt> | i don't think i've ever used more than one tbody, so i have no idea what makes sense for sorting |
| 01:04 | <TabAtkins> | I've only used them for styling purposes. |
| 01:04 | <Hixie> | TabAtkins: why would the author bother to use two <tbody>s in that case? |
| 01:04 | <TabAtkins> | Man, I dunno. |
| 01:05 | <Hixie> | consider the table at http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#the-input-element |
| 01:05 | <zewt> | seems vaguely weird to move tr's between tbody's, since you're changing the tree structure (eg. events propagate up a different list of parents) |
| 01:05 | <zewt> | oh god i loaded that in firefox again |
| 01:06 | <Hixie> | (note, i have no answer for how you keep the tbody headings in the right place on that table) |
| 01:07 | <Hixie> | that table does seem to argue for supporting each tbody as being its own sorting domain |
| 01:08 | <zewt> | (i'd force the headings to the top by giving it a sort key of "") |
| 01:08 | <Hixie> | what if the user reverses the sort order? |
| 01:08 | <zewt> | mm |
| 01:08 | <zewt> | make them separate tbody's? |
| 01:09 | <Hixie> | that seems dubious |
| 01:09 | <Hixie> | i think something about the spanning should probably suffice |
| 01:09 | <Hixie> | or the scope |
| 01:09 | <Hixie> | but anyway |
| 01:09 | <Hixie> | not worried about that for now |
| 01:10 | <TabAtkins> | Yeah, sorting the tbodys separately does seem the right idea. |
| 01:11 | <TabAtkins> | But I still have no clue about sorting the naked trs separately or together. |
| 01:11 | <zewt> | unrelated: is the default text sort case-insensitive? |
| 01:11 | <Hixie> | i'll just sort sequences of them |
| 01:11 | <Hixie> | zewt: currently that's my plan but again, that's just cos nobody has argued otherwise |
| 01:12 | <zewt> | (for most regular-user stuff it's probably best) |
| 01:12 | <TabAtkins> | It probably makes the most sense, yeah. |
| 01:13 | <zewt> | turn on sorting for all tables on random pages that use tables for layout, just for entertainment |
| 01:14 | <zewt> | welcome to the picassoweb |
| 01:14 | <TabAtkins> | Haha, nice. |
| 01:14 | <TabAtkins> | They'd all end up sorting by string, generally, I assume. |
| 01:31 | <TabAtkins> | Signing off for 2 weeks. See you all on Jan 8th! |
| 04:18 | <JonathanNeal> | No more Tab. |
| 05:01 | <JonathanNeal> | http://secure.codepen.io/joe/fulldetails/KIgFx Hixie console.log(document.body.css) I think it's exactly what you wanted (but under the wrong namespace). |
| 09:16 | <MikeSmith> | Ms2ger: refixed http://w3c-test.org/html/ |
| 09:16 | <MikeSmith> | I think the fix will take this time |
| 09:17 | <MikeSmith> | problem yesterday was, it turned out the cause was something that got rsynced over from dvcs.w3.org |
| 09:18 | <MikeSmith> | and I had made the change locally, so the next rsync just ended up clobbering it |
| 09:19 | <MikeSmith> | but I think Robin has removed it now from dvcs.w3.org, so should not show up again |
| 09:57 | <Ms2ger> | Ah, fun |
| 09:57 | <Ms2ger> | MikeSmith, thanks! |
| 10:25 | <annevk> | Oh, sortable is being drafted already |
| 11:16 | <annevk> | Hixie: requiring <thead> seems overkill for simple tables |
| 11:16 | <annevk> | Hixie: also, there's a number of xref problems and some missing <dfn> around the new members |
| 13:01 | <Ms2ger> | Anyone feel like reviewing some bug fixes? https://github.com/w3c/html-testsuite/pull/12 |
| 13:06 | <annevk> | your bug fix seems to remove the original test |
| 13:07 | <annevk> | in particular you no longer test the relation between the content and IDL attribute |
| 13:07 | <annevk> | oh you do, but the reverse |
| 13:07 | <annevk> | sorry |
| 13:14 | <Ms2ger> | I removed a part that just wasn't backed by the spec |
| 13:22 | <heycam> | Ms2ger, re your question about testharness.js tests for SVG |
| 13:23 | <heycam> | Ms2ger, we are just starting to get our SVG 2 test suite together |
| 13:23 | <Ms2ger> | I asked something about that? |
| 13:23 | <heycam> | (I think so?) |
| 13:23 | <heycam> | Ms2ger, and I haven't written any testharness.js tests before; do they relate to the Shepherd-run reftests? |
| 13:23 | <heycam> | or are they completely separate/ |
| 13:23 | <Ms2ger> | testharness.js is for JS tests, reftests are rendering tests :): |
| 13:24 | <heycam> | ok :) |
| 13:24 | <heycam> | but they don't use the reftest harness at all |
| 13:24 | <heycam> | well |
| 13:24 | <heycam> | does the shepherd harness do automatic reftest testing yet? |
| 13:24 | <Ms2ger> | Automatic? No |
| 13:25 | <Ms2ger> | Ah, here it is |
| 13:25 | <Ms2ger> | Do you have a repository set up? |
| 13:25 | <heycam> | Ms2ger, you asked here https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=816778#c47 |
| 13:25 | <Ms2ger> | Yeah, just found that |
| 13:25 | <heycam> | oh that's like already a week ago |
| 13:26 | <heycam> | my how time (and email inbox buildup) passes |
| 13:26 | <heycam> | Ms2ger, so we have http://svgwg.org/hg/svg2-tests/ |
| 13:26 | <heycam> | Ms2ger, which I think has the right directory structure for shepherd |
| 13:27 | <Ms2ger> | Ugh |
| 13:27 | <heycam> | though we don't have sheperd configured to present our tests anywhere |
| 13:27 | <heycam> | (and we haven't started importing our SVG 1.1 tests there yet) |
| 13:27 | <Ms2ger> | I don't think shepherd actually requires such a silly directory structure, and if it did, it'd have to be changed for html/webapps anyway |
| 13:28 | <heycam> | for testharness.js tests? |
| 13:28 | <heycam> | (I'm assuming webapps tests don't have any reftests?) |
| 13:28 | <Ms2ger> | HTML has some |
| 13:28 | <heycam> | ok |
| 13:28 | <heycam> | do you have link? |
| 13:28 | <Ms2ger> | https://github.com/w3c/html-testsuite |
| 13:28 | <heycam> | I'll just copy the location/directory structure |
| 13:29 | <heycam> | nice unicorn |
| 13:29 | <Ms2ger> | We just got rid of the approved/contributors stuff |
| 13:29 | <heycam> | ah it's loaded now |
| 13:29 | <heycam> | I see |
| 13:29 | <heycam> | I think we'll see how we go in terms of WG approval/review of tests for us |
| 13:29 | <Ms2ger> | Instead, pull requests |
| 13:29 | <heycam> | seems easiest just to copy CSS for the moment |
| 13:30 | <heycam> | fair enough |
| 13:30 | <Ms2ger> | Fwiw, I tend to think we should just throw everything in one repo |
| 13:30 | <heycam> | (though we aren't using github of course) |
| 13:30 | <Ms2ger> | Anyway, want to submit dzbarsky's test? |
| 13:31 | <heycam> | yeah I will |
| 13:31 | <heycam> | once I sort out our repo |
| 13:31 | <heycam> | but I guess we don't have a syncing script like the one for reftests/w3c-css/ |
| 13:31 | <heycam> | ? |
| 13:32 | <heycam> | Ms2ger, do you use the same format for these js tests too? I see like <link rel=author>, <link rel=help>, etc. |
| 13:32 | <Ms2ger> | We have a syncing script under dom/imptests |
| 13:33 | <Ms2ger> | links are optional, because they're not terribly useful |
| 13:33 | <heycam> | yeah I'm kind of skeptical about manually maintained metadata |
| 13:34 | <heycam> | perhaps I should just read the code in there, but do the importing scripts require a particular directory structure or anything? |
| 13:34 | <Ms2ger> | No |
| 13:34 | <Ms2ger> | Just a MANIFEST file |
| 13:35 | <heycam> | ok |
| 13:35 | <heycam> | and it just copies those files |
| 13:35 | <Ms2ger> | Yep |
| 13:35 | <heycam> | ok cool, sounds easy :) |
| 13:35 | heycam | will look into that |
| 13:36 | <Ms2ger> | It should be easy, I'm lazy :) |
| 13:37 | heycam | is three glasses of wine in at at 12:30am so is not going to try now |
| 13:38 | <Ms2ger> | Oh, AM, that makes more sense :) |
| 13:42 | <annevk> | Ms2ger: all tests in one repo? |
| 13:42 | <Ms2ger> | Yeah |
| 13:42 | <annevk> | Ms2ger: I tend to agree |
| 13:42 | <annevk> | but I haven't done much with tests... |
| 13:43 | <Ms2ger> | Maybe you should ;) |
| 13:59 | <annevk> | Yeah one day. I should do a set of tests for Encoding and URL... |
| 13:59 | <annevk> | In other news, this prototype stuff... What does document.open() do with that? If you keep the document, but the global object is replaced, are the prototypes weird? |
| 14:00 | <annevk> | Hmm, running out of time... |
| 14:06 | <Ms2ger> | bz can tell you stories about that, I'm sure :) |
| 16:37 | <Hixie> | gsnedders: pretty sure the people editing the w3c spec don't know either (Re your tweet) |
| 16:38 | <Hixie> | annevk: requiring <thead> is because otherwise you have to handle <th>s in weird places |
| 16:39 | <Hixie> | annevk: e.g. if you have <tr><th><td> <tr><td<td> <tr><td><th> <tr><td><td> |
| 16:39 | <Hixie> | not sure what should happen in that case |
| 16:40 | <Hixie> | gsnedders: (in particular, i'm almost certain none of them have read the spec cover to cover in the first place; the CR has all kinds of weird stuff that makes no sense e.g. parts of ping="") |
| 16:42 | <gsnedders> | Yeah, I'd rather got that impression. |
| 16:43 | <gsnedders> | Oh well, time for me to work out how I'm getting to my parents. Flooding and landslides makes this... interesting. |
| 16:44 | <Hixie> | enjoy |
| 16:44 | <gsnedders> | On the whole I expect I'll just stay here another day, but currently trying to figure out diversions of trains to work out how late they'll be running. |
| 16:45 | <gsnedders> | And maybe take a coach. Easier to divert them. :) |
| 16:50 | <Hixie> | oh, around the water |
| 16:50 | <Hixie> | i thought you meant you wanted to hijack one or something |
| 16:51 | <gsnedders> | I'm sure my lack of any practical experience driving would help with that :) |
| 17:28 | <volkmar> | according to the specs, what should happen if I do: input.valueAsNumber=NaN (for a type='number' and type='date') |
| 17:29 | <volkmar> | setting seems to always assume the new value is valid |
| 17:32 | <Hixie> | yeah, that's bogus |
| 17:32 | <Hixie> | heycam|away: here's another example of wanting a different setter type than getter type |
| 17:32 | <Hixie> | heycam|away: i want to return NaN sometimes (unrestricted double), but the setter needs to just be double |
| 17:33 | <gsnedders> | NaN is a double by most defintiions. |
| 17:33 | <Hixie> | not WebIDL's |
| 17:33 | <gsnedders> | Shows what I know :) |
| 17:33 | <Hixie> | volkmar: i filed https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20496 |
| 17:34 | <Hixie> | volkmar: if you're implementing, assume it will be fixed to treat NaN/Infinity the same way as a WebIDL "double" would |
| 17:34 | <Hixie> | (which i think means TypeError is thrown) |
| 17:35 | <volkmar> | hmm, ok |
| 17:36 | <volkmar> | right now our implementation is setting the empty string if NaN is passed |
| 17:36 | <Hixie> | i could see an argument for that behaviour |
| 17:36 | <Hixie> | how about Infinity? |
| 17:37 | <volkmar> | let me check |
| 17:37 | <Hixie> | (i added a comment to the bug) |
| 17:44 | <volkmar> | Hixie: seems like we handle Infinity like NaN |
| 17:44 | <Hixie> | that seems a bit less justifiable |
| 17:45 | <volkmar> | indeed |
| 17:45 | <volkmar> | but I don't really not what would make sense |
| 17:45 | <Hixie> | i think Infinity should just throw TypeError |
| 17:45 | <Hixie> | i could buy NaN setting the value to "" though, that seems somewhat useful |
| 17:46 | <Hixie> | that'd be my recommendation, anyway |
| 17:46 | <Hixie> | it's your call really :-) |
| 17:46 | <volkmar> | eh |
| 17:47 | <Hixie> | if you do something other than Infinity=>TypeError, NaN=>"", please do comment on the bug so i make sure to make the spec match implementations |
| 17:47 | <volkmar> | I think I will do that |
| 17:47 | <volkmar> | will try to update the bug |
| 17:47 | <Hixie> | excellent |
| 17:47 | <Hixie> | thank you sir |
| 17:47 | <volkmar> | yw |
| 18:16 | <Hixie> | is there some name for the level of a key in a sort? i.e. a secondary key's ___ is 2, a primary key's ___ is 1, a tertiary key's ___ is 3, etc |
| 18:16 | <Hixie> | the key's ordinality, maybe? |
| 18:22 | <Hixie> | should <tr><th sorted="1">A <th sorted="3"> B</tr> be valid? (i.e. skipping ordinalities) |
| 18:28 | <Hixie> | huh, autocomplete is case-insensitive |
| 18:28 | <Hixie> | was that intentional, i wonder |
| 18:29 | <Hixie> | ah, yes. |
| 18:29 | <Hixie> | ok |
| 18:56 | <Hixie> | if we sort the following table: <table>....<tbody><tr><td rowspan=2>B</tr><!----><tr></tr><tr><td>A</table> |
| 18:56 | <Hixie> | ...what should the resulting DOM look like? |
| 18:57 | <Hixie> | the B row and the next row are kept together, but are they kept together along with the comment between them? |
| 18:57 | <Hixie> | i'm thinking no. |
| 19:15 | <Ms2ger> | gsnedders, hey, bz's latest email on www-dom sounds like something you'd know about |
| 19:21 | <gsnedders> | Ms2ger: If you say so. |
| 19:21 | <Ms2ger> | I did :) |
| 19:21 | <Ms2ger> | Or at least find someone who does :) |
| 19:25 | <gsnedders> | Ms2ger: Or I don't know and can look :) |
| 19:26 | <Ms2ger> | Thanks :) |
| 19:27 | <gsnedders> | (I believe we never change, off hand) |
| 19:27 | <gsnedders> | (In case I vanish) |
| 19:31 | <Ms2ger> | That would be unfortunate |
| 19:42 | <gsnedders> | Ms2ger: Emailed, if you so care. |
| 19:44 | <Ms2ger> | Thanks |
| 21:52 | <SimonSapin> | annevk: "The encoding attribute must return the encoding." That’s the encoding *name*, right? |
| 21:53 | <SimonSapin> | In http://encoding.spec.whatwg.org/#dom-textdecoder-encoding |
| 22:05 | SamB | wonders about the point of this step in the font type pattern matching algorithm: Let the byte sequence to be matched be the byte sequence to be matched. |
| 22:15 | <Hixie> | SamB: is part of that a variable name or something? (e.g. in italics, if using a graphical browser?) |
| 22:16 | <SamB> | Hixie: well, I didn't *spot* anything formatted differently on one side than the other ... |
| 22:16 | <Hixie> | dunno then |
| 23:19 | SamB | doesn't get why I-Ds expire so quickly ... |
| 23:32 | <Hixie> | gsnedders: where do we expose GC behaviour? |
| 23:32 | <Hixie> | i thought we'd worked pretty hard to not expose it at all |
| 23:33 | <gsnedders> | Hixie: getElementsByTagName NodeList |
| 23:36 | <Hixie> | that's more exposing caching behaviour than GC behaviour |
| 23:37 | <Hixie> | no? |
| 23:37 | <Hixie> | i mean i guess they might be correlated |
| 23:37 | <gsnedders> | But you can observe when GCs happen due to cache invalidation happening at the same time, no? |
| 23:40 | <Hixie> | i guess if you put a property on the object, then keep no references, then keep asking for the object and checking if there is a property on it... |
| 23:40 | <Hixie> | but there doesn't have to be a correlation between GC and caching there |
| 23:41 | <Hixie> | the UA could start returning a new object even when the other isn't GCed, and could have a strong reference from the cache to the object |
| 23:41 | <gsnedders> | I'm going to claim that either way exposing caching behaviour in such a way is bad. |
| 23:50 | <zewt> | i'd call those basically equivalent problems |
| 23:50 | <zewt> | that is, exposing nondeterministic, implementation-specific behavior is bad (and GC just happens to be the most common manifestation of that) |