| 06:35 | <hsivonen> | “The polyglot markup community” http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2013Jan/0052.html |
| 06:42 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen: he forgot to add the word "thriving" there |
| 06:42 | <hsivonen> | I’m trying to figure out how to ask for the membership list of said community without Sam telling me I’m using emotive language or something. |
| 06:43 | <hsivonen> | I genuinely curious if the community is larger than Sam and Leif |
| 06:47 | <MikeSmith> | I wonder whether Leif actually even authors anything using polyglot markup |
| 06:49 | <MikeSmith> | heycam|away: in http://mcc.id.au/BrowserMiniconf/LCA2013/Schedule "Below is the schedule for the Browser Miniconf", the URL for the Browser Miniconf link goes to the 2012 info page |
| 06:50 | <MikeSmith> | instead of to the 2013 one |
| 06:51 | <MikeSmith> | shanestephens: ↑ |
| 06:57 | <hsivonen> | I wonder if the Opera Ice video is an elaborate troll: the UI depicted has Windows 8 -like gestures and animations and there already was an ICE Browser from Norway. |
| 07:03 | <MikeSmith> | does make you wonder who leaked it and why |
| 07:04 | <MikeSmith> | and anyway the writeups about make speculations that aren't substantiated by anything that's actually in the video |
| 07:04 | <hsivonen> | yeah |
| 07:05 | <MikeSmith> | speaking of elaborate trolls I wonder sometimes if html5test is in the category |
| 07:06 | <hsivonen> | the remarks at the end of the video sound like they could be offensive to people who’ve worked on Opera’s products for years. I find it surprising that the presenter would say that to an audience of Opera employees. |
| 07:08 | <hsivonen> | I always get annoyed when journalists score browsers mainly by publishing html5test.com scores |
| 07:09 | <MikeSmith> | there's not shortage recently of some Opera people saying things that are offensive to people who've worked on Opera's products for years |
| 07:10 | <hsivonen> | s/journalists score/journalists rate/ |
| 07:10 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen: I was just looking at the dependency tree for the htmltest on mozilla bugzilla |
| 07:11 | <MikeSmith> | and I noticed the bug for keygen |
| 07:12 | <MikeSmith> | god knows why the htmltest dude thinks keygen merits having a feature-test there |
| 07:39 | <Stevef> | MikeSmith: congrats on finally getting the main layout tests working on webkit :-) |
| 07:43 | <MikeSmith> | Stevef: yeah the WebKit ax test-runner infrastructure is .. idiosyncratic |
| 07:43 | <MikeSmith> | but it gets the job done |
| 07:44 | <Stevef> | right |
| 07:44 | <MikeSmith> | now that I've learned it I suppose I should put it to good use and write a some more tests |
| 07:45 | <MikeSmith> | btw I didn't include a test to check if header and footer get de-landmarked if they're descendants of main |
| 07:47 | <MikeSmith> | because, first off, the patch doesn't yet actually implement that behavior |
| 07:47 | <MikeSmith> | hmm or perhaps it does |
| 07:47 | <Stevef> | OK , thats gets handled by article/secton currently, need to look into it and spec it out |
| 07:48 | <MikeSmith> | ok so a follow-up bug could be opened for that later |
| 07:49 | <MikeSmith> | I guess I should quit speculating and just write the test now to see |
| 07:49 | <Stevef> | yes, i have some related feedback to process |
| 07:49 | <MikeSmith> | but not make the test part of the initial patch |
| 07:57 | <Ms2ger> | MikeSmith, not just their a11y tests :) |
| 08:01 | <MikeSmith> | Ms2ger: yeah but I suspect that a11y test stuff for other engines maybe have some similar esoteric-ness |
| 08:02 | Ms2ger | grumbles at ReSpec |
| 08:03 | hsivonen | keeps reading a11y as ally |
| 08:03 | <hsivonen> | testing their allies |
| 08:05 | <MikeSmith> | ax is easier to type |
| 08:06 | <MikeSmith> | and read |
| 08:08 | <hsivonen> | would you rather accessibility be an ax or an ally? |
| 08:08 | <MikeSmith> | I prefer the ax |
| 08:09 | <MikeSmith> | btw am I missing something or is there really no way in bugs.webkit.org to do component watching? |
| 08:11 | <MikeSmith> | I know the bugzilla version there doesn't have the component-watching feature but it also doesn't have the QA contact field so no use of the convention of putting a unique address there to follow |
| 08:22 | <Stevef> | MikeSmith: the effect of section/article on header/footer and potential effect of main on same needs to be added to WAI-ARIA section of HTML in the mapping tables will file a bug etc |
| 08:22 | <MikeSmith> | Stevef: ok |
| 08:24 | <Stevef> | there is quite a bit of work on the WAI-ARIA section needed in 5.1 to better reflect implementations |
| 08:25 | <hsivonen> | Hixie, dglazkov: have you pinged the SVG and MathML groups about element names with a hyphen in them being reserved from now on? |
| 08:27 | <MikeSmith> | Stevef: I'm a bit confused about why the job of speccing some of this behavior falls to HTML instead of to PFWG to define in the ARIA specs |
| 08:27 | <Stevef> | MikeSmith: because the host language defines the mappings for the host language features |
| 08:28 | <MikeSmith> | Stevef: I realize they can't define anything about HTML elements, but they can for the related abstractions |
| 08:28 | <MikeSmith> | this is more than just mappings |
| 08:28 | <MikeSmith> | and it should be handled the same way across all host languages |
| 08:30 | <Stevef> | well that maybe something that can be refined in aria 1.1 |
| 08:31 | <MikeSmith> | Stevef: yeah that seems to be the proposed solution for any suggestions/comments that people make about aria |
| 08:31 | <MikeSmith> | "yeah we gonna fix that in the next version" |
| 08:31 | <hsivonen> | “Google Chrome does not use the Windows Media Player plugin, it uses the ActiveX control instead.” Really? |
| 08:32 | <hsivonen> | is there even WMP-dependent Web content that anyone cares about anymore? |
| 08:33 | <Stevef> | I don't have much influence or input on the wai-aria spec and only have so many hands |
| 08:56 | hsivonen | wonders if there are polyglot elephants, too |
| 09:17 | <Stevef> | MikeSmith: and in the case of header/footer and banner/contentinfo we have an imperfetc match between the semantics and authoring requirements/advice, in which case the differences i think need to be defined in HTML |
| 09:27 | <MikeSmith> | Stevef: ok |
| 10:06 | <a_not_registed_n> | hi@all |
| 10:11 | <a_not_registed_n> | i´m trying to get an animation to work. (with <canvas>) is it possible to remove a single Item? for example the last one? |
| 10:12 | <a_not_registed_n> | asking because "context.clearRect" delete all to the ground with background and other layers |
| 10:13 | <Ms2ger> | Canvas is a bitmap, so, no |
| 10:21 | <a_not_registed_n> | so i had to draw in every frame everything again? |
| 10:22 | <tomasf> | if you want "layers", maybe you should use something other than a canvas |
| 10:24 | <a_not_registed_n> | layers would be nice. can you suggest something? |
| 10:25 | <tomasf> | what are you trying to accomplish? |
| 10:27 | <a_not_registed_n> | an application using Phonegap. so i can only use HTML5/CSS/JS |
| 10:28 | <a_not_registed_n> | and had to run on webkit |
| 10:36 | <a_not_registed_n> | can you store different transparent <canvas> on each other? selct by id and draw in wihout "damage" the other layers... |
| 10:44 | <hsivonen> | whoa. annevk is not on IRC. |
| 11:01 | <darobin> | lol, hsivonen :) “[t]he polyglot markup community” consists of you and Sam? |
| 12:11 | <annevk> | HTMLSelectElement.remove() |
| 12:12 | <Ms2ger> | Fun, isn't it? |
| 12:13 | <hsivonen> | annevk: you may be interested in the Character Encoding menu on Firefox for Android |
| 12:13 | <hsivonen> | annevk: it has fewer options than the desktop menu |
| 12:13 | <hsivonen> | annevk: and the list is based on looking at what kind of list the stock browser offers |
| 12:14 | <Ms2ger> | And no idea about window.event, but that feels uglier |
| 12:14 | <hsivonen> | minus removing GBK for some problem or another |
| 12:14 | <hsivonen> | (I wish we were more scientific about these menus) |
| 12:15 | <hsivonen> | (more scientific than treating the Android stock browser as a role model) |
| 12:16 | <hsivonen> | btw, I don’t see a Character Encoding menu at all in Chrome Beta for Android (en-US) |
| 12:26 | <annevk> | hsivonen: cool |
| 12:27 | <annevk> | Ms2ger: I guess Opera has srcElement too? |
| 12:27 | <annevk> | hsivonen: problem is I don't have Android at the moment, and I believe the Android phone I have somewhere hidden away does not run Gecko :/ |
| 12:27 | <Ms2ger> | That's what was claimed in the bug, I haven't tested |
| 12:28 | <annevk> | I think Opera has window.event too though. |
| 12:28 | <annevk> | Does WebKit have that? |
| 12:29 | <Ms2ger> | Dunno |
| 12:32 | <hsivonen> | annevk: Firefox for Android now runs on ARMv6 |
| 12:32 | <hsivonen> | and with less RAM |
| 12:32 | <hsivonen> | GLES is still a requirement, though |
| 12:34 | <hsivonen> | from the “Don’t they do QA or dogfooding?” department: Eclipse CDT regressed the ability to attach to a process with gdb and shipped |
| 12:34 | <annevk> | Does that mean compatible with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTC_Wildfire ? There's no easy to go by chart |
| 12:34 | <annevk> | Guess I can take a look tonight |
| 12:36 | <hsivonen> | annevk: it has too little RAM to be officially supported |
| 12:36 | <hsivonen> | might work anyway |
| 12:47 | <annevk> | Ms2ger: w("event" in window) -> true in Chrome |
| 13:13 | <annevk_> | Oh my bad. I missed that hsivonen made the same argument as I did in the other email. |
| 13:14 | <annevk> | "When 50% of the polyglot markup community itself can’t get it right, why bother?" |
| 13:15 | <annevk> | XHTML was hard and failed with the web developer community. So lets try to be HTML and XHTML at the same time, surely that's simpler! |
| 13:15 | <annevk> | Lessons learned: less than zero. |
| 13:17 | <odinho> | Hmm. I really thought the tests-at-github thing was resolved. |
| 13:17 | <odinho> | Would be uncool having to do it all over again for webapps and webappsec. |
| 13:19 | <annevk> | Man ReSpec sucks with fragment identifiers... |
| 13:20 | <annevk> | FOUC and you're at the top rather than what you were trying to read... |
| 13:23 | <jgraham> | odinho: Well last time it came up, ArtB basically said "no experimenting in my working group" |
| 13:23 | <odinho> | jgraham: Oh, I just sent an email saying "can we move now plzs" |
| 13:23 | <annevk> | My feeling at that point is that ReSpec appears to optimize for editors at the expense of everyone else, but actually optimizes for ReSpec at the expense of everyone. |
| 13:23 | <jgraham> | So now that the idea is proven in HTML, it should be OK to do in WebApps |
| 13:23 | <odinho> | jgraham: Anyway html tests already did it. So it's not experimental any more. |
| 13:24 | <jgraham> | But of course there might be some other reason given not to do it |
| 13:24 | <jgraham> | You going to review the pull requests btw? |
| 13:27 | <odinho> | Was intending to take a look |
| 13:27 | <jgraham> | Cool |
| 14:03 | <Ms2ger> | odinho, fwiw, I'd prefer having one repo for html+webapps+... |
| 14:27 | <Ms2ger> | darobin, AFAIK, yes |
| 14:27 | <annevk_> | Ms2ger: IDB also doesn't define event handlers very clearly in terms of HTML |
| 14:30 | <Ms2ger> | annevk, it's better at defining other things? |
| 14:31 | <darobin> | Ms2ger: I can't find usage info on this, are you sure it's well deployed, even in mobile? |
| 14:31 | <jgraham> | Ms2ger: Out of interest, why one repo? |
| 14:31 | <Ms2ger> | jgraham, why two? |
| 14:31 | <annevk> | Ms2ger: that was rhetorical? |
| 14:32 | <Ms2ger> | jgraham, I just don't see the point of silo'ing things by working group |
| 14:32 | <jgraham> | Ms2ger: Fair enough. I don't think it's a very serious problem because in practice it isn't hard to move things from one repo to another if needed |
| 14:33 | <Ms2ger> | jgraham, especially since I seem to remember that people submitted tests for WebApps deliverables to the HTML test suite before |
| 14:33 | <darobin> | I hear a lot of people asking for an integrated TS with everything |
| 14:33 | <jgraham> | And smaller repos can be nice |
| 14:33 | <darobin> | no one gives a shit about how things are cut up into groups |
| 14:33 | <annevk> | yeah |
| 14:33 | <annevk> | that's why people like #whatwg |
| 14:34 | <jgraham> | darobin: But, Process man, Process |
| 14:34 | <darobin> | mmmm, patents — not process |
| 14:34 | <Ms2ger> | Webapps wouldn't be too bad, but figuring out where tests for Performance or Touch Events go... |
| 14:34 | <darobin> | you wouldn't have RF if there weren't groups |
| 14:34 | <darobin> | (no matter how much that may suck) |
| 14:34 | <annevk> | you can have groups but shared tests... |
| 14:35 | <jgraham> | darobin: I know, but now I can't tell what you are advocating for tests |
| 14:35 | <annevk> | they're not correlated that way |
| 14:35 | <darobin> | at the same time, I got a lot of complaints at TakeOff about how participating in standards involved receiving tons of email about stuff you don't give a shit about |
| 14:35 | <darobin> | it seems people don't want to care where specs belong, but would like one list per spec, or even per feature |
| 14:35 | <darobin> | Making Communities Happy Is Hard: Film at 11 |
| 14:36 | <Ms2ger> | More lists tends to lead to more email too, unfortunatel |
| 14:36 | <Ms2ger> | y |
| 14:36 | <darobin> | jgraham: I tend to lean towards Ms2ger's position — have just the one repo |
| 14:36 | <annevk> | Yeah, more lists doesn't necessarily mean more productive discussion. And you'll waste a bunch of time when reviewing to figure out where feedback has to go. I hit that problem each time I review. |
| 14:36 | <darobin> | someone even told me "I like the HTML WG better than WHAT WG because there's almost no email there nowadays" |
| 14:36 | <darobin> | I tried hard not to giggle |
| 14:37 | <Ms2ger> | darobin, I failed :) |
| 14:37 | <annevk> | We could just give everyone their own mailing list with no email. |
| 14:37 | <darobin> | yay! |
| 14:38 | <Ms2ger> | indexedDB of type IDBFactory, readonly |
| 14:38 | <Ms2ger> | This attribute provides applications a mechanism for accessing capabilities of indexed databases. |
| 14:38 | <jgraham> | public-annevk⊙wo? I like |
| 14:38 | <darobin> | Ms2ger: you failed at something in particular or just in general? |
| 14:38 | <Ms2ger> | darobin, I failed not to giggle |
| 14:38 | <darobin> | jgraham: and then annevk would unsub from that list due to the copyright commitment |
| 14:38 | <darobin> | Ms2ger: :) |
| 14:39 | <Ms2ger> | And create annevk⊙lwo instead? |
| 14:40 | <annevk> | darobin: heh, I'll keep waving that flag until it's settled |
| 14:40 | <annevk> | darobin: don't think it's a problem for email though, but I might be missing something |
| 14:40 | <darobin> | you need guns, not flags |
| 14:42 | <jgraham> | Guns that pop flags out of the end? |
| 14:44 | <darobin> | jgraham: you never tell — that's the point |
| 14:44 | <darobin> | hmmmm, just received the first valid argument against using GH to date |
| 14:45 | <darobin> | being this: http://viewdns.info/chinesefirewall/?domain=github.com |
| 14:45 | <darobin> | that's annoying |
| 14:46 | <annevk> | Ms2ger: Indexed DB returns arbitrary objects? Are those described in sufficient detail? |
| 14:47 | <annevk> | Whoa, they haven't blocked my site. |
| 14:49 | <Ms2ger> | "Getting this property must return the source for the request. Returns null when there is no source set." |
| 14:49 | <Ms2ger> | darobin, http://viewdns.info/chinesefirewall/?domain=bitbucket.org :) |
| 14:50 | <hsivonen> | darobin: China can DNS poison any domain any day. Any Web-based tool you choose today can be banned tomorrow. |
| 14:50 | <darobin> | Ms2ger: which just shows how unused it is :) |
| 14:50 | <hsivonen> | darobin: so it doesn't make much sense to choose tools based on what's banned in China |
| 14:50 | <darobin> | hsivonen: I know, but it's a small factor to take into account |
| 14:51 | <darobin> | I don |
| 14:51 | <darobin> | gah |
| 14:51 | <darobin> | I don't like the idea of banning chinese contributors, even if it's not our fault |
| 14:51 | <Ms2ger> | hsivonen, clearly with so many Chinese members (http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2013Jan/0019.html), they wouldn't be able to block anything W3C hosts :) |
| 14:52 | <hsivonen> | darobin: well, Finland blocked lists.w3.org as child porn one time. Should we stop using lists.w3.org? |
| 14:52 | <darobin> | hsivonen: I'm not talking about not using |
| 14:52 | <darobin> | I'm pondering proxying |
| 14:52 | <darobin> | totally different notion :) |
| 14:52 | <annevk> | thanks Ms2ger |
| 14:52 | <hsivonen> | darobin: ah |
| 14:53 | <hsivonen> | http://hsivonen.iki.fi/access-blocked/ for those with short memory |
| 14:53 | <darobin> | to be fair though, I don't think that preventing children from accessing lists.w3.org is a bad idea :) |
| 14:53 | <darobin> | it may forever scar one |
| 14:53 | <Ms2ger> | darobin, I don't think it's just children that are blocked from child porn |
| 14:54 | <hsivonen> | oops. it was www.w3.org not lists.w3.org |
| 14:54 | <darobin> | oh, child porn, I had misparsed hsivonen's initial line |
| 15:03 | <hsivonen> | hmm. the grammar coherence of my last email to public-html is unusually bad |
| 15:04 | <hsivonen> | forgetting the start of the sentence before getting to the end of the sentence |
| 15:04 | <hsivonen> | multiple times |
| 15:04 | <darobin> | ah, the well know problem of timblificiation |
| 15:06 | <darobin> | if you start also speaking that way, you might want to consider joining a support group |
| 15:58 | <Stevef> | darobin: spam man |
| 15:58 | <darobin> | \o/ |
| 15:58 | <darobin> | Stevef: well, *if* I can succeed |
| 15:59 | <darobin> | right now I'm getting a 502 on updating the DB |
| 15:59 | <Stevef> | so do we have a 5.1 componenet now? |
| 15:59 | <darobin> | no, it's just HTML5 spec |
| 16:00 | <darobin> | I don't see much of a point in adding a new component for 5.1, we just keep working on the same bug set |
| 16:00 | <Stevef> | OK so do we use HTML5 spec component for 5.1 bugs? |
| 16:00 | <darobin> | yup |
| 16:00 | <Stevef> | cool |
| 16:00 | <darobin> | there's a CR component for things that should definitely target the CR draft |
| 16:00 | <zewt> | (there's also no such thing as "html5.1" dot dot dot) |
| 16:01 | <Ms2ger> | There's just a HTML :) |
| 16:01 | <Stevef> | if you believe there is |
| 16:01 | <zewt> | pretty telling that hixie spends years getting everyone to understand that html is unversioned, then w3c people go "yay, hixie's gone! now we can finally increase the version number!" |
| 16:02 | <zewt> | (heh) |
| 16:02 | <Stevef> | yeah thise bastard W3C people |
| 16:02 | <Stevef> | those |
| 16:02 | <darobin> | I don't care, all I want is the right set up for "This is not the version you're looking for" jokes |
| 16:02 | <zewt> | call it a lumping together :P |
| 16:02 | <darobin> | the rest is immaterial |
| 16:03 | <Ms2ger> | Twss |
| 16:03 | <Stevef> | besides its not HTML5.1 its HTML 5.1 |
| 16:03 | <Stevef> | nightly no less |
| 16:09 | <Stevef> | the one fortified with <main> ... runs and hides |
| 16:09 | <darobin> | oh yeah, forgot that we also want to have the ability to make "cast thy coloured nightlies and look upon Denmark as a friend" jokes |
| 16:10 | <Stevef> | darobin: did you see my whine on htmlwg irc about wonky 5.1 links? |
| 16:10 | <Ms2ger> | Meanwhile, the WHATWG server is powered by Shakespeare spinning in his grave |
| 16:11 | <darobin> | Stevef: nope, but I am already aware that something broke the build script |
| 16:11 | <darobin> | that would break links |
| 16:11 | <darobin> | Ms2ger: I'm all about renewables :) |
| 16:11 | <Stevef> | FYI weird stuff going on with html 5.1 follwoing a link in multipage redirects to single page - results in browser hang... |
| 16:12 | <darobin> | Stevef: yeah, I don't know what broke us but it broke us bad |
| 16:12 | <darobin> | last time it was a very poorly placed closing element |
| 16:16 | <darobin> | ~/ Bugs like violence, Break the silence, Come crashing in, Into my little mailbox /~ |
| 16:42 | <jgraham> | Ms2ger: I thought there was only XUL? |
| 16:42 | Ms2ger | eyes jgraham |
| 17:02 | <annevk> | hsivonen: we could consider utf-8 a special label maybe just like utf-16 |
| 17:02 | <annevk> | hsivonen: guess you'd want telemetric data on how often the encoding is changed from utf-8 to something else |
| 17:40 | <MikeSmith> | so <main> just now landed in WebKit |
| 17:40 | <MikeSmith> | http://trac.webkit.org/changeset/140341 |
| 18:42 | <MikeSmith> | "content-type (mime type) squatting" is an apt was to characterize polyglot http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2013Jan/0049.html |
| 19:32 | <MikeSmith> | wow some quality Bjoern-age to www-archive just now |
| 19:33 | <MikeSmith> | http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2013Jan/0021.html |
| 19:34 | <MikeSmith> | 2000 words worth |
| 19:44 | <Ms2ger> | Hmm, "Angstklauseln" |
| 19:50 | <Ms2ger> | And it ends with a shot at Hixie, nicely done |
| 19:55 | <MikeSmith> | "Angstklauseln" is a great word |
| 19:55 | <MikeSmith> | I wonder if that's actually commonly used or if he coined it |
| 19:58 | <jgraham> | http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disclaimer |
| 19:59 | <jgraham> | Links to http://angstklauseln.wordpress.com/ |
| 20:01 | <MikeSmith> | ah |
| 20:01 | <MikeSmith> | ok |
| 20:01 | <MikeSmith> | well we should use the equivalent in English |
| 20:01 | <MikeSmith> | it's an apt description |
| 20:02 | Ms2ger | checks if http://angstklauseln.wordpress.com/ is run by Bj�rn |
| 20:02 | <MikeSmith> | hah |
| 20:02 | <Ms2ger> | Apparently not |
| 20:04 | <MikeSmith> | "Frankenmails" is not up to par though. SpuckteAntworten would be better |
| 20:04 | <MikeSmith> | (for the shot at Hixie) |
| 20:06 | <MikeSmith> | speaking of Hixie, here's Hixie and BruceL in Japanese: http://www.publickey1.jp/blog/13/hixie_html5hixie.html |
| 20:06 | <MikeSmith> | retitled "Why does Hixie always say No?" |
| 22:54 | <heycam> | MikeSmith, thanks, fixed the link |
| 22:55 | <heycam> | hsivonen, Hixie, I don't think SVG has any plans on introducing hyphenated element names. the existing ones are solely for css-descriptors-in-element-form, and we really shouldn't have those anyway |
| 22:55 | <heycam> | hsivonen, Hixie, the existing hyphenated ones might well all be removed from SVG 2 too |
| 23:02 | <heycam> | TabAtkins, is @host meant to also replace @global? |
| 23:03 | <heycam> | TabAtkins, so you could write for example: @host { body > :scope > p { … } } |
| 23:03 | <heycam> | ? |