| 03:08 | <MikeSmith> | President of Japan's 2nd biggest mobile operator says they are considering to market smartphones with Firefox OS |
| 03:08 | <MikeSmith> | http://japan.cnet.com/news/service/35027172/ |
| 03:09 | <MikeSmith> | 「Firefox OS」を搭載したスマートフォンの販売を検討していることを明かした。 |
| 03:09 | <tantek> | whoa cool |
| 03:09 | <zewt> | "firefox os"? not sure i even want to know |
| 03:10 | <tantek> | http://www.mozilla.org/en-US/firefoxos/ |
| 03:15 | <MikeSmith> | back in the day, KDDI was also the first operater in the world to ship mobile phones with a full browser installed |
| 03:16 | <MikeSmith> | full Opera Mobile (non-Mini) |
| 03:16 | <MikeSmith> | they branded it as "PC Site Viewer" |
| 03:45 | <MikeSmith> | tantek: Is there any difference now between B2G and FirefoxOS? |
| 03:46 | <MikeSmith> | I noticed there's still also B2G pages on the wiki, along with the FirefoxOS ones. |
| 03:47 | <tantek> | technical vs. marketing? |
| 03:47 | <MikeSmith> | yeah, seems like |
| 03:48 | <tantek> | I mean, they're the same thing. Except FirefoxOS sounds like something awesomely web native that you'd like to run, and B2G sounds like a bad Web 2.0 acronym. |
| 03:48 | <MikeSmith> | heh |
| 03:48 | <tantek> | my opinion of course, not anything official ;) |
| 03:48 | <MikeSmith> | I'm gonna tell reporters to quote you on that |
| 03:48 | <tantek> | oh crap - with IRC log citation as well I'm sure |
| 03:49 | <tantek> | well, it's the not worst thing I've been quoted saying. |
| 03:49 | <tantek> | http://www.flickr.com/photos/kaeru/875369568/ |
| 04:02 | <MikeSmith> | tantek: hahah |
| 04:03 | <MikeSmith> | well that statement I think almost anybody would agree with |
| 08:44 | <annevk> | Anyone found a copy of http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2187884/ somewhere? Seems like a pretty interesting moving. Guerilla-shot at Disney theme parks :-) |
| 09:21 | <annevk> | "If metadata falls in the forest and there is no one to hear it, does it make a sound?" |
| 09:21 | <annevk> | In related news, not sure how glazou simultaneously heralds XML as a requirement for the book industry and implies they have not actually read the XML specification with regards to encodings... |
| 09:22 | <annevk> | Also, I was kinda hoping encodings to not be a subject worthy of debate. |
| 09:29 | <MikeSmith> | it's (ir|mor)onic that he's trumpeting about user needs with those requirements have absolutely no relation to user needs and bring no value to users |
| 09:29 | <MikeSmith> | EPUB seems to require a whole chain of things for reasons that are completely at odds with actual user needs |
| 09:30 | <hsivonen> | thing most at odds with actualy users needs: META-INF/rights.xml |
| 09:30 | <MikeSmith> | well I think that's where a lot of the rest of it stems from |
| 09:31 | <othermaciej> | the EPUB format seems puzzling in many ways |
| 09:32 | <annevk> | Have to hand it to glazou for trying to make the WYSIWYG thing work and raising issues every now and then, but the issues he raises do not exactly strike me as what's the real problem... |
| 09:33 | <hsivonen> | so per the latest email, does glazou work for companies that use something other than XML parsers with XML? |
| 09:35 | <annevk> | "With respect to the industrial xml solutions available to the companies I work for, certainly not." I don't even... |
| 09:37 | <annevk> | I don't really think that discussion is going anywhere. glazou just wanted to rant a bit. |
| 09:41 | <othermaciej> | is he saying that UTF-8 is not guaranteed to work in industrial XML solutions, or that industrial XML solutions guarantee support for a wide range of other encodings? |
| 09:41 | <MikeSmith> | time to mine it for a w3cmeme |
| 09:43 | <MikeSmith> | othermaciej: the latter, I'm pretty sure |
| 09:43 | <MikeSmith> | the first would be beyond absurd |
| 09:44 | <hsivonen> | othermaciej: EPUB is less puzzling if you start with the following assumptions: 1) UI layer has to work when the book's DRM scheme is unsupported. 2) XHTML files are munged by DRM. |
| 09:45 | hsivonen | notes that off-the-shelf expat supports only UTF-8, UTF-16 and ISO-8859-1 (and maybe US-ASCII, can't remember) |
| 09:46 | <hsivonen> | anyway, using non-UTF-8 for a format that has supported UTF-8 from day 1 is being part of the encoding problem |
| 09:50 | <darobin> | I think that what glazou is trying to say is that given the content in that industry, an XML parser has to support much more than UTF* |
| 09:50 | <MikeSmith> | yeah that |
| 09:58 | <hsivonen> | Version attributes are useless. Film at 11: http://www.glazman.org/weblog/dotclear/index.php?post/2012/08/06/EPUB3-fun-2 |
| 10:01 | <MikeSmith> | nice |
| 10:02 | <darobin> | no no, they're not useless |
| 10:03 | <darobin> | they're positively harmful |
| 10:05 | <darobin> | there's a decision tree for that: http://berjon.com/blog/2009/12/xmlbp-naive-versioning.html |
| 10:12 | <karlcow> | Stevef: comment published on QA. |
| 10:12 | <karlcow> | thanks! |
| 10:12 | <Stevef> | np |
| 11:09 | <annevk> | MikeSmith: why was https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=13639 reopened? |
| 11:09 | <annevk> | Oh well, I'll just remove myself from the cc list |
| 11:21 | <annevk> | wait what |
| 11:22 | <annevk> | Is http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-3-Events/#events-MouseEvent-buttons a new feature? |
| 11:22 | <annevk> | I thought we had given up on bitmasks? |
| 11:23 | <annevk> | Seems Firefox has it |
| 11:23 | <darobin> | annevk: how else can you make it extensible to 8-button mice? |
| 11:23 | <Stevef> | annevk: yeah some people wanted to get PF to review, so it was re-opened |
| 11:23 | <annevk> | Chrome does not |
| 11:23 | <Stevef> | darobin: have provided comment https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=13639#c5 |
| 11:23 | <darobin> | AFAIK it's been there a while |
| 11:24 | <darobin> | at least, it rings a bell |
| 11:24 | <annevk> | Well, .button used to be a bitmask in IE |
| 11:24 | <annevk> | In other browsers it mapped to whatever the DOM defined at the time |
| 11:24 | <annevk> | I think .buttons is a new invention that somehow slipped past review... |
| 11:24 | <darobin> | annevk: yeah, it's been in the spec since 2010 at least |
| 11:32 | <annevk> | I don't like the way that specification has been developed. Full of surprises. |
| 11:48 | <annevk> | Is there some other holiday season? Am I listening in to the wrong bubble? There appears to be not much activity. And especially issues I've raised over the past couple of months got like zero attention. Maybe everyone moved beyond web standards to herd cattle or some such? |
| 12:11 | <smaug____> | annevk is gone, but yesterday was http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Luther_King,_Jr._Day |
| 12:53 | <Ms2ger> | Yay, polyglot in my inbox |
| 12:54 | <darobin> | the whole world is polyglot |
| 12:55 | <darobin> | it's like no one's working on anything else |
| 12:55 | <hsivonen> | Ms2ger: do you subscribe to www-archive? |
| 12:55 | darobin | set the ignore flag on that one |
| 12:55 | <Ms2ger> | hsivonen, no, glazou cc'd me |
| 12:55 | <hsivonen> | Ms2ger: ah right |
| 12:55 | darobin | wonders who would be mad enough to sub to www-archive |
| 12:55 | <darobin> | well, apart from Bjoern |
| 12:55 | <hsivonen> | darobin: Do I need a support group for that, too? |
| 12:56 | <darobin> | hsivonen: you and 60 other people :) |
| 12:57 | <darobin> | including a substantial number of folks in this channel |
| 13:02 | <Ms2ger> | darobin, is Bj�rn actually subscribed? |
| 13:03 | <darobin> | Ms2ger: no, but I would be surprised if he wasn't at some point |
| 13:03 | <darobin> | you know, before it was cool |
| 13:45 | <odinho> | darobin: Sounds super great to me :] |
| 13:46 | <odinho> | It'll look stupid if I say that on the ml though, because I agreed with you from the beginning anyway :P |
| 13:46 | <odinho> | If we just send enough emails back and forth, it'll look like there was a discussion and stuff is decided? ;P |
| 13:49 | <MikeSmith> | annevk: I don't know why that bug was reopened, and seems like darobin doesn't either, but maybe Stevef does |
| 13:49 | <Stevef> | i have commented on bug |
| 13:49 | <MikeSmith> | ah ok |
| 13:49 | <Stevef> | pointed tominutes |
| 13:49 | <MikeSmith> | hai |
| 13:50 | <odinho> | So tobie also doesn't like the WG-clustering of tests. |
| 13:52 | <MikeSmith> | darobin: I subscribe to www-archive for the sole purpose of being able to read Bjoern's messages as soon as they hit the newstand (as it were) |
| 13:52 | <MikeSmith> | for the sense of anticipation |
| 13:53 | <tobie> | Oh, that's where this conversation is happening. |
| 13:53 | <tobie> | :) |
| 13:54 | <annevk> | Don't tell anyone ;-) |
| 13:54 | <odinho> | Which one? :P |
| 13:55 | <tobie> | heh. |
| 13:55 | hsivonen | still reads mlw as Mr. Last Week instead of MultiLingual Web. |
| 13:55 | <MikeSmith> | heh |
| 13:56 | <MikeSmith> | darobin: dunno why figure is not allowed in dd, but yeah seems like it should be |
| 13:57 | <tobie> | odinho: re: I wouldn't mind WG-clustering, if WG-clustering was only about tech. But it's not. And that makes it super confusing. Discoverability is a big issue. |
| 13:58 | <odinho> | Yep. :-) |
| 13:58 | <tobie> | Admittedly, I am very slow, but it took me months (!) to figure out what was happening where. |
| 13:59 | <tobie> | ...and this was my job. Regular developers don;t have the bandwidth for this. |
| 13:59 | <tobie> | s/;/'/ |
| 14:00 | <odinho> | tobie: Lots of confusion abound. The first post in the thread starts off from a confusion :] |
| 14:00 | <tobie> | True. |
| 14:01 | <MikeSmith> | darobin: hmm figure actually is already allowed in dd. maybe it's changed since the time I built those jars |
| 14:04 | <karlcow> | hmm a +1 on www-tag. Where are the reformists? |
| 14:16 | <Ms2ger> | Ah, tobie's here |
| 14:19 | <tobie> | Ms2ger: yes |
| 14:19 | <Ms2ger> | Hi tobie :) |
| 14:20 | <tobie> | Hi! |
| 14:27 | <darobin> | odinho: I love your plan man :) |
| 14:27 | <darobin> | MikeSmith: ah, yeah, I thought it would be allowed |
| 14:28 | <darobin> | are you tracking it or should I look more closely? |
| 14:28 | <Ms2ger> | darobin, so, what do we bikeshed "html-testsuite" to? :) |
| 14:29 | <darobin> | Ms2ger: man, STFU, I've been hoping no one would broach that topic ever since the merging suggestion cropped up :) |
| 14:29 | <Stevef> | chris lilley is getting XML ornery https://twitter.com/svgeesus/status/293725944269643776 and https://twitter.com/svgeesus/status/293725703294316544 |
| 14:30 | <tobie> | I missed an episode, apparently. What's the plan for tests, odinho? |
| 14:31 | <darobin> | I just had a meeting with the Web Crypto WG — they want to put their stuff inside html-testsuite |
| 14:31 | <Ms2ger> | tobie, you replied to his emails :) |
| 14:32 | <odinho> | tobie: I think Robin meant one of my snarky ";P" lines up here. :-) |
| 14:32 | <odinho> | tobie: So nothing that's not on the mailing list :] |
| 14:32 | <darobin> | me? |
| 14:32 | <darobin> | I would so never encourage snarkiness |
| 14:33 | Ms2ger | snorts |
| 14:34 | <darobin> | well, maybe except in the way that the overwhelming loftiness of my view may lead pettier men to being snarky |
| 14:34 | <tobie> | I'm still trying to figure out whether odinho is advocating for a repo per WG, a repo for W3C or something in between. |
| 14:35 | <darobin> | odinho is advocating for one big repo |
| 14:35 | <darobin> | where we all party |
| 14:35 | <odinho> | tobie: lol. I fail at comms. |
| 14:35 | <odinho> | Party-party. |
| 14:35 | <Ms2ger> | odinho, communists? |
| 14:35 | <darobin> | well, at least one repo for all the browser stuff |
| 14:35 | <tobie> | odinho: and I'm slow. |
| 14:35 | <MikeSmith> | darobin: I tested with jar I pointed you at and it allows figure in dd and as far as I caln tell figure has always been allowed in dd |
| 14:35 | <hsivonen> | what's the context of Chris Lilley's xml-nowhere tweet? |
| 14:36 | <darobin> | MikeSmith: interesting, I have multiple "source":43276.5-43276.29: error: Element "figure" not allowed as child of element "dd" in this context. (Suppressing further errors from this subtree.) |
| 14:36 | <tobie> | darobin: I'll let you define what exactly it is you mean by "all the browser stuff." |
| 14:36 | <darobin> | tobie: I admin the repo, I decide :) |
| 14:36 | <darobin> | hsivonen: I'm guessing polyglot |
| 14:36 | <tobie> | WFM. |
| 14:36 | <Ms2ger> | I would suggest CSS, but glazou is already unhappy |
| 14:36 | <darobin> | ah, yeah, we're not taking over the CSS tests |
| 14:37 | <hsivonen> | darobin: who argued xml-nowhere in that context? |
| 14:37 | <darobin> | though we might manage to gain enough weight to drag them over! |
| 14:37 | <tobie> | darobin: build it and they will come. |
| 14:37 | <darobin> | hsivonen: I dunno man, I stopped reading those threads |
| 14:37 | <darobin> | tobie: well, we're still not sure that we want them to come ;) |
| 14:37 | Ms2ger | never started |
| 14:37 | <Ms2ger> | darobin, hey, so about my RDF tests... |
| 14:37 | <darobin> | a wise man Ms2ger is |
| 14:38 | <darobin> | Ms2ger: sure thing! I'll put them right next to the XML Schema ones |
| 14:38 | <Ms2ger> | /dev/null? |
| 14:38 | <darobin> | like I said, wise man |
| 14:38 | Ms2ger | bows |
| 14:44 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen: I guess I still don't have sufficient clue to understand what Kingsley means by "burden for HTML5 parser developers" in the tangent on the polyglot thread. As far as I can see it doesn't relate to parsing at all but instead to making a conforming RDFa processor that does whatever stuff is needed for that, after the actual parsing. |
| 14:45 | <Ms2ger> | MikeSmith, you're reading that thread? |
| 14:45 | Ms2ger | passes MikeSmith the booze |
| 14:45 | <MikeSmith> | heh |
| 14:45 | <annevk> | It seems that DOM playtime is over. I wonder when the outcry starts that no longer making Attr inherit from Node breaks web architecture. |
| 14:46 | <Ms2ger> | annevk, when the TAG says so ): |
| 14:46 | <Ms2ger> | :)* |
| 14:46 | <annevk> | Well I'm part of that group now. It's gonna be though to get consensus on that one. |
| 14:47 | <annevk> | "consensus" hah. I made a funny. |
| 14:48 | <MikeSmith> | Ms2ger: pretty sure I need to booze to actually understand what "producing RDF model based data from an HTML5 document comprised of fine-grained structured data islands" is. Or to care. But even as dumb as I am I know it has nothing to do with "HTML5 parsing". |
| 14:48 | <Ms2ger> | annevk, congratudolences, I guess |
| 14:49 | <Ms2ger> | SimonSapin, fantasai isn't going to be happy if you want to put pseudo-elements in Selectors :) |
| 14:49 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: I didn't try to understand that tangent |
| 14:49 | <SimonSapin> | Ms2ger: I don’t know, why? |
| 14:50 | <Ms2ger> | Oh, hmm, are they back? |
| 14:50 | <Ms2ger> | I thought she threw them out |
| 14:50 | <SimonSapin> | Ms2ger: having them somewhere else is fine with me, as long as they are defined at all |
| 14:51 | <SimonSapin> | Ms2ger: selectors4 have the general rules (syntax, position, …), but not the definitions on any particular pseudo-element |
| 14:57 | <SimonSapin> | Ms2ger: do you know if the pseudo-elements are now somewhere else? |
| 15:06 | <annevk> | hsivonen: seems you're more productive on www-tag than I am ;-) |
| 16:08 | <MikeSmith> | I just noticed the implied scare quotes that annevk put around the word productive there |
| 17:13 | <Ms2ger> | jsbell, thanks |
| 17:14 | <jsbell> | ms2ger: I have to resend to the list since I sent from the wrong address. Sorry for the dupe you're about to get. |
| 17:14 | <Ms2ger> | Np |
| 17:14 | <Ms2ger> | It's not like I don't get a lot of email anyway :) |
| 17:15 | <jsbell> | ms2ger: and thank *YOU*. I'm meeting with the MSFTies this Friday to do some IDB spec bashing |
| 17:15 | <Ms2ger> | Maybe I should look some more, then ;) |
| 17:15 | <jsbell> | modulo ReSpec issues... and maybe I'll end up hacking on that. |
| 17:15 | <jsbell> | Please do. Mind the open issues, though, we have a bit of a backlog to edit in. |
| 17:16 | <Ms2ger> | Oh, and a file a bug / open bugs link would be nice |
| 17:16 | <Ms2ger> | And poke darobin if respec still sucks :) |
| 17:22 | <darobin> | heh |
| 17:22 | <darobin> | someone scare up a nice syntax and I'll implement it |
| 17:22 | <darobin> | else, wait until I have a day or so to myself to scare it up |
| 17:22 | <Ms2ger> | Next decade? |
| 17:22 | <darobin> | re IDB though it's not entirely my fault that they're using WebIDL deprecated exception stuff |
| 17:22 | <darobin> | I reckon "this year" |
| 17:23 | <Ms2ger> | Are they still? |
| 17:23 | <darobin> | well they were |
| 17:23 | <Ms2ger> | I was thinking static operations, enums, and bug tracker links |
| 17:23 | <darobin> | I made ReSpec ignore those and they weren't happy because all their exception stuff vanished :) |
| 17:23 | <Ms2ger> | Which I'm all blaming on you |
| 17:23 | <darobin> | it has enums |
| 17:23 | <Ms2ger> | I remember that, now they claim TypeError is a DOMException |
| 17:23 | <darobin> | I forget if it has static, I thought it did |
| 17:24 | <darobin> | bug tracker link is, like, a few lines of patching so I reckon if you bug me about that tomorrow morning it'll happen :) |
| 17:24 | darobin | off now |
| 17:24 | <Ms2ger> | I need a bot to ping people in the morning |
| 17:24 | <Ms2ger> | One that isn't me |
| 17:25 | <darobin> | infobot can do that |
| 17:25 | <darobin> | anyway, I'll leave setting up an instance to someone else :) |
| 17:25 | <Ms2ger> | I'll ping you about that in the morning ;) |
| 17:25 | <annevk> | So I'm looking into my paperwork for the first time since well, forever, and I find out I have double insurance. Apparently this means I get a bunch of money back. |
| 17:26 | <annevk> | I should have taken an hour back in 2007 or so when I signed all those papers, to actually read what they said. |
| 18:16 | <odinho> | Ohwell. That should be it for the day. :-) |
| 18:17 | <Ms2ger> | It's not even 8pm yet |
| 18:17 | <odinho> | :-( |
| 18:18 | <odinho> | I've been coming quite early to work in the mornings now though. Everything from 6 (that was an outliner) to 8-9 (more usual). |
| 18:18 | <Ms2ger> | And that's early? :) |
| 18:18 | <odinho> | And it's not hip to work long hours in Norway anyway. So most of the day I'm sitting almost alone here in this huge room. |
| 18:19 | <odinho> | "most of the day" is a extremely huge overstatement, btw. |
| 18:19 | <Ms2ger> | I'd hope so :) |
| 18:20 | <odinho> | Ms2ger: I can always do more work at home, since I has laptop now. |
| 18:20 | <Ms2ger> | Do they allow you to take code home? ;) |
| 18:20 | Ms2ger | mitm's odinho |
| 18:20 | <WeirdAl> | Ms2ger is there a crash stats IRC channel? |
| 18:21 | <Ms2ger> | KaiRo would know |
| 18:21 | <WeirdAl> | oops, wrong channel |
| 18:31 | <TabAtkins> | heycam|away: @host and @global are the same concept. The name isn't nailed down. |
| 18:34 | <Ms2ger> | annevk, I know you like URL parsing, so I cc'd you :) |
| 18:52 | <dglazkov> | good morning, Whatwg! |
| 18:53 | <chriho> | Morning |
| 18:53 | <chriho> | Hi, I have a feature request for: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/the-video-element.html#media-resources-with-multiple-media-tracks |
| 18:53 | <chriho> | could there be audioTrack.channels "returns number of audio channels in audio" |
| 18:54 | <chriho> | or something that indicates if it's stereo or surround... |
| 18:54 | dglazkov | mumbles something about WebKit and Opera again |
| 19:29 | <Ms2ger> | darobin, and if you'd have time to accept my pull request... |
| 21:07 | <annevk> | Ms2ger: if they used scheme:// they could have reused the same parser ws and http already use |
| 21:07 | <annevk> | Ms2ger: kinda sad they didn't |