| 00:33 | <zewt> | apis without specs can be comedic |
| 00:35 | <zewt> | x = otherwindow.console.log; x("log"); worked in firefox and ie9 but not webkit, and now we have webkit people wanting to change to making it work while ie10 apparently (untested) doesn't allow it anymore |
| 00:35 | <zewt> | bleh, guess i should set up a vm for ie10 |
| 00:40 | <zewt> | why does google let people run ads for "ie10" that have titles "FREE INTERNET EXPLORER 10" that go to random other things, is there no screening at all |
| 01:04 | <heycam> | Hixie, so my opinion on the DOMStringMap thing is that it would be nicer if it were [OverrideBuiltins], so you don't get the other properties from Object.prototype shining through |
| 10:28 | <Ms2ger> | http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2013Apr/ appears to suggest a ttwf is in progress |
| 10:37 | <MikeSmith> | Ms2ger: yeah in Seattle |
| 11:06 | <smaug____> | " WebIDL systematically leads to APIs hostile to the working JavaScript programmer." is not very helpful |
| 11:07 | <annevk> | where is that from? |
| 11:07 | <annevk> | oh you're reading that thread too |
| 11:08 | <annevk> | I try to read past the blame game |
| 11:08 | <annevk> | it's not very interesting |
| 11:11 | <smaug____> | I'm trying to understand the complaints |
| 11:11 | <smaug____> | but since the complaints are just "this is not good" |
| 11:11 | <smaug____> | it is a bit hard to argue anything |
| 11:11 | Ms2ger | has long given up on those trolls |
| 11:14 | <annevk> | smaug____: they have been concrete though and given feedback |
| 11:14 | <annevk> | smaug____: https://www.w3.org/2006/02/lc-comments-tracker/43696/WD-proximity-20121206/2740 |
| 11:14 | <annevk> | smaug____: part of the problem is us |
| 11:15 | <annevk> | smaug____: we haven't done early outreach and just shipped a bunch of broken APIs |
| 11:15 | <annevk> | smaug____: I can totally understand that it makes it feel kinda futile to then make concrete proposals for an alternative |
| 11:18 | <smaug____> | well, as an example, it isn't clear what the event handling API should look like |
| 11:19 | <smaug____> | it doesn't have to be what jQuery does |
| 11:19 | <annevk> | the high-level comment there is that what we have now for these sensor APIs is very bad |
| 11:20 | <annevk> | registering a handler activates the sensor |
| 11:20 | <annevk> | and removing the handler deactivates it |
| 11:20 | <annevk> | event listeners should not have such side effects at all |
| 11:20 | <smaug____> | why not |
| 11:20 | <smaug____> | if it is not visible to the API user |
| 11:21 | <smaug____> | that *if* is rather important here :) |
| 11:21 | smaug____ | goes to check what sensors API does |
| 11:22 | <Ms2ger> | Yay, DAP |
| 11:22 | <annevk> | it's totally visible |
| 11:22 | <annevk> | Ms2ger: more like yay dougt |
| 11:22 | <Ms2ger> | Ugh, dougt |
| 11:22 | <smaug____> | editor is Dzung |
| 11:23 | <annevk> | smaug____: most of those APIs were copied straight from B2G |
| 11:23 | <smaug____> | ah |
| 11:23 | <Ms2ger> | You can hardly blame the B2G APIs on WebIDL |
| 11:23 | <Ms2ger> | They all use XPIDL |
| 11:23 | <annevk> | http://dev.w3.org/geo/api/spec-source-orientation.html is the first one that happened I think |
| 11:23 | <smaug____> | uh |
| 11:23 | <smaug____> | https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/dap/raw-file/tip/sensor-api/Overview.html is totally non-sense |
| 11:24 | <smaug____> | The event handler passed to addEventListener must provide the signature: interface SensorCallback { |
| 11:24 | <smaug____> | void ondata (double value, double min, double max); |
| 11:24 | <smaug____> | }; |
| 11:24 | <annevk> | smaug____: haha |
| 11:24 | <Ms2ger> | Note "The Device APIs Working Group decided to put this general Sensor API specification on hold and work on each sensor separately (see e.g. the Device Proximity)." |
| 11:24 | <annevk> | smaug____: fwiw, I might sensor APIs in a more general sense |
| 11:25 | <annevk> | smaug____: things like proximity, orientation, etc. |
| 11:25 | <annevk> | s/might/meant/ |
| 11:25 | <smaug____> | Ms2ger: oh, I should read that boilerplate |
| 11:25 | <smaug____> | but good |
| 11:26 | <Ms2ger> | It might perhaps be helpful if these APIs weren't all developed in small groups without Web API design experience |
| 11:29 | <jgraham> | There is a second problem which is that engine constraints mean that we sometimes can't design the APIs that JS programmers would design |
| 11:29 | <smaug____> | we should have kidnapped Andrei in London (saw him when we were going to the Thai-restaurant) and make him to fix geo spec |
| 11:30 | <jgraham> | e.g. the weblinkit adversion to having C++ own js objects |
| 11:39 | <Ms2ger> | Is weblinkit what we're calling it now? |
| 11:53 | <annevk> | smaug____: oh he was there? missed that |
| 14:03 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: I don't care what you believe. :) |
| 14:09 | <jgraham> | I thinkn forcing imports to be alphabetial is just silly :) |
| 14:10 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: I think using an abstract concept of generality is silly. |
| 14:12 | <jgraham> | I think being anal about import orders is silly |
| 14:13 | <jgraham> | Just move the from foo import bar to before the next empty line and stop discussin git :) |
| 14:13 | <jgraham> | *discussing it |
| 14:13 | <gsnedders> | I already did. |
| 14:13 | <jgraham> | You seem to still be discussing it :) |
| 14:13 | <gsnedders> | And I broke the build. :) |
| 14:14 | <gsnedders> | I should really run tests locally first. :) |
| 14:14 | <jgraham> | Oh, missing a comma |
| 14:15 | <gsnedders> | Yeah, pushed fix. |
| 14:16 | <jgraham> | So are you planning to rebase this? I have no idea if/how github/critic would cope with that |
| 14:17 | <gsnedders> | Will rebase then close pull request manually. |
| 14:17 | <jgraham> | OK |
| 14:17 | <gsnedders> | At least I think I have to do it manually. |
| 14:17 | <gsnedders> | But waiting for Travis CI first. I haven't tested the fixes on Python 3. |
| 14:17 | <jgraham> | Yeah, i have the feeling that history rewrites on PR branches wouldn't work so well |
| 14:17 | <gsnedders> | Could try. :) |
| 14:18 | <gsnedders> | But non-fast-forward stuff is always evil to push. |
| 14:19 | <jgraham> | Well it's a rather common critic workflow, as well you know (and typically doesn't cause any problems) |
| 14:19 | <gsnedders> | (`pip install lxml` is a real bottleneck on Travis CI, sadly.) |
| 14:19 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: But that's the critic repo, which people don't often fetch |
| 14:22 | <gsnedders> | Getting us actually passing tests with all the optional extras is making me feel that html5lib might, you know, work. |
| 14:24 | <Ms2ger> | It does? |
| 14:27 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: I know *why* it works |
| 14:27 | <jgraham> | :) |
| 14:29 | <jgraham> | So where are all the TestTWF people? |
| 14:30 | <jgraham> | Oh, I guess it is only 7:30 am |
| 14:30 | <jgraham> | So possibly asleep |
| 14:33 | <jgraham> | Someone should tell them to go on IRC in #testing or something. Although I don't know how much I'll be around to help |
| 14:34 | <jgraham> | Hopefully a bit at least |
| 14:35 | <Ms2ger> | I don't know if I should be around, in that case ;) |
| 14:36 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: Also now pushed huge commit removing all trailing whitespace :) |
| 14:37 | <jgraham> | Yay! No more red! |
| 14:38 | <Ms2ger> | So is github the canonical repo now? |
| 14:39 | <jgraham> | Yes |
| 14:40 | <gsnedders> | Ms2ger: Well, four repos. :) |
| 14:41 | <Ms2ger> | Yay. |
| 14:42 | <gsnedders> | If you find anything bogus in the history, file a bug. And then we'll have to decide whether it's worthwhile rewriting history to remove. |
| 14:52 | <Ms2ger> | annevk, I get a "term not defined: dom manipulation task source" when generating dom |
| 14:52 | <annevk> | Ms2ger: hmm sorry about that |
| 14:52 | <annevk> | Ms2ger: I have not updated xref yet because the migration of CORS is not entirely complete |
| 14:52 | <Ms2ger> | Ah, I see |
| 14:52 | <Ms2ger> | No worries |
| 14:53 | <Ms2ger> | I was just looking if html5lib still worked |
| 14:53 | <annevk> | k |
| 15:11 | <Hixie> | 03:21 < heycam> Hixie, so my opinion on the DOMStringMap thing is that it would be nicer if it were [OverrideBuiltins], so you don't get the other properties from Object.prototype shining through |
| 15:11 | <Hixie> | er |
| 15:11 | <Hixie> | mispaste. that was for the bug. |
| 15:11 | <Hixie> | what i meant to paste here was: http://www.reddit.com/r/Python/comments/1c8wzq/htmltagpy_a_new_module_to_wrap_content_in_html/c9eclnh?context=3 |
| 15:16 | <Ms2ger> | Oh, so *that*'s what's been messing with your productivity ;) |
| 15:19 | <Hixie> | messing with my productivity? have you _seen_ the chart for the last week? :-P |
| 15:19 | <Hixie> | i've been kicking ass! :-P |
| 15:20 | <Ms2ger> | Last week, yes ;) |
| 15:20 | Ms2ger | has noticed that in his inbox too |
| 15:21 | <Hixie> | hehe |
| 15:21 | <Ms2ger> | I wish all weeks were that way :) |
| 15:24 | <annevk> | Hixie: fwiw http://angularjs.org/ is what Google promotes, prolly under the "HTML5" banner and allows custom elements, much like web components, which come to think of it, are probably also promoted as "HTML5" |
| 15:31 | <Hixie> | annevk: yeah, i know |
| 15:48 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: Speaking of people pushing non-ff updates to remotes, deleting remote branches it's tracking upsets critic a little |
| 15:48 | <jgraham> | By which I mean "I get email about it" |
| 15:48 | <jgraham> | Please at least close the review so that the tracking stops :) |
| 15:51 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: It already is closed. |
| 15:58 | <jgraham> | Huh, so why is it still tracking? |
| 16:00 | <jgraham> | Well when I close it it stops tracking... I guess I should either read the code or ask jl |
| 16:14 | <GPHemsley> | annevk: Do you know off-hand what encodings have รง encoded at 0x87? |
| 16:15 | <GPHemsley> | annevk: (Search for "07390000" in http://memory.loc.gov:8081/ll/llhb/030/llhb030.txt for a live web example) |
| 16:21 | <GPHemsley> | annevk: Oh, hint: IBM code page 850 has it. Not in the Encoding spec, but available in Firefox. |
| 16:21 | <Hixie> | wtf https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?query_format=advanced&list_id=7641&longdesc=213.37.128.77&longdesc_type=allwordssubstr |
| 16:21 | <Hixie> | this one IP has filed four of these bogus bugs with just selected text |
| 16:21 | <Ms2ger> | Does that URL say "longdesc"? |
| 16:23 | <Hixie> | longdesc is what bugzilla calls a comment internally |
| 16:39 | <Hixie> | how dod i compare to arbitrary unicode strings in js, with case folding? |
| 16:40 | <Ms2ger> | foo.toLowerCase() === bar.toLowerCase()? |
| 16:42 | <Hixie> | is thought that wasn't good in all languages or something |
| 17:41 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: I am very alarmed. html5lib.treewalkers.etree throws ImportError on loading, yet all tests pass. |
| 17:42 | <odinho> | Not really 100% coverage there? :P |
| 17:46 | <Philip`> | If it couldn't load any of the tests, then none of them failed, therefore they all passed - seems perfectly logical |
| 17:48 | <gsnedders> | tl;dr: keep your try blocks small to not catch exceptions you don't mean to |
| 17:50 | <gsnedders> | Is there any way to get text outside of the html element? It's always reparented, right? |
| 17:53 | <bholley> | Hixie: yt? |
| 17:54 | <Hixie> | bholley: yeah, sup |
| 17:54 | <bholley> | Hixie: was just curious about dialogArguments |
| 17:54 | <bholley> | The dialogArguments IDL attribute, on getting, must check whether its browsing context's active document's origin is the same as the dialog arguments' origin. If it is, then the browsing context's dialog arguments must be returned unchanged. Otherwise, if the dialog arguments are an object, then the empty string must be returned, and if the dialog arguments are not an object, then the stringification of the dialog arguments must be returned. |
| 17:54 | <bholley> | (from the spec) |
| 17:54 | <bholley> | Hixie: why do we have to stringify in the non-same-origin case? |
| 17:54 | <Hixie> | one sec, switching computers and have to reboot the one i'm switching to. brb. |
| 17:55 | <bholley> | Hixie: np |
| 17:57 | <Hixie> | k, back |
| 17:57 | Hixie | reads |
| 17:59 | <Hixie> | oh it's just because otherwise you can leak cross-origin access |
| 17:59 | <Hixie> | e.g. if it contains a DOM Node |
| 17:59 | <Hixie> | you've just leaked that entire origin |
| 18:00 | <bholley> | Hixie: but we're talking about the primitive case |
| 18:00 | <bholley> | Hixie: objects are the empty string, right? |
| 18:01 | <Hixie> | oh, hm |
| 18:01 | bholley | reads the dichotomy as object vs primitive, and assumes that nodes would fall into the object case, but might be missing a subtlety |
| 18:01 | <Hixie> | no, i don't think you are |
| 18:02 | <Hixie> | maybe it's what browsers do? |
| 18:02 | <Hixie> | or maybe i was just absent-minded when speccing that... |
| 18:02 | Hixie | looks at blame |
| 18:02 | <bholley> | not what Gecko does, haven't checked anything else |
| 18:04 | <bholley> | Hixie: I'm asking because I'm trying to simplify our whole setup for this stuff so that we can just do the origin check directly on the jsval when it comes time to define it on the global. But only objects (non-primitives) have an origin associated with them, so it's difficult to know whether to stringify or not in the primitive case |
| 18:05 | <Hixie> | looks like this text dates back to the first introduction of the text in the spec |
| 18:05 | <Hixie> | so it's probably just a mistake |
| 18:06 | <bholley> | Hixie: \o/ |
| 18:07 | <bholley> | Hixie: want me to file? |
| 18:08 | <Hixie> | i'd like us to test other browsers first |
| 18:08 | <Hixie> | well, before we change the spec, anyway |
| 18:08 | <Hixie> | no harm having a bug on file to track it |
| 18:09 | <bholley> | Hixie: ok, I'll write a quick testcase |
| 18:09 | <bholley> | Hixie: also, can you clarify what you mean by "named properties other than child browsing context names" in https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=21674 ? |
| 18:10 | <Hixie> | (hahah, the guy who said i should read up on html5 edited his comment to remove that bit of it) |
| 18:10 | <gsnedders> | (Where? :)) |
| 18:11 | <Ms2ger> | http://www.reddit.com/r/Python/comments/1c8wzq/htmltagpy_a_new_module_to_wrap_content_in_html/c9eclnh?context=3 |
| 18:12 | <Ms2ger> | bholley, global scope polluter |
| 18:12 | <Hixie> | bholley: like, window.foo for <a name=foo> |
| 18:12 | <bholley> | Hixie: oh god, I sure hope not |
| 18:13 | <bholley> | Hixie: certainly not in Gecko |
| 18:13 | <Ms2ger> | bholley, fwiw, I think we have a special case for nsIDOMWindows |
| 18:13 | <bholley> | Ms2ger: special-case in what sense? |
| 18:13 | <bholley> | Ms2ger: as in the way we handle it in AccessCheck.cpp? |
| 18:13 | <bholley> | IsFrameId? |
| 18:14 | <Ms2ger> | Oh, no |
| 18:14 | <bholley> | Hixie: but yeah, in Gecko this just goes straight to the browsing context tree, and I'd be very suspicious of doing anything more general |
| 18:14 | <Ms2ger> | I was thinking of something in nsWindowSH::GetProperty, but that's dead |
| 18:14 | <bholley> | Hixie: I'll test enumerability now |
| 18:15 | bholley | grumbles about SSH lag while writing testcases on his server, but then remembers that he's sitting on an airplane |
| 18:16 | <odinho> | bholley: mosh |
| 18:16 | <bholley> | odinho: mosh? |
| 18:16 | <Ms2ger> | mosh |
| 18:16 | <odinho> | my bestest friend. mobile-shell/mosh yes. |
| 18:17 | <bholley> | odinho: what is that? |
| 18:17 | <odinho> | bholley: No, who knows, try a apt-get install mosh or your equivalent, and check it out ;-) |
| 18:18 | <odinho> | bholley: It helps you with laggy connections. Works better in typical mobile situations. E.g. when changing connections, or having very high latency. It has local echo e.g. |
| 18:18 | <bholley> | hm, there's no homebrew for it |
| 18:19 | <bholley> | odinho: or wait, is this server-side or client-side? |
| 18:19 | <odinho> | Yes there is, -- I have used an OS X machine once. |
| 18:19 | <odinho> | bholley: You need it on both. |
| 18:19 | <bholley> | odinho: brew install mosh gives no results |
| 18:19 | <odinho> | http://mosh.mit.edu/ |
| 18:19 | <odinho> | bholley: brew install mobile-shell maybe |
| 18:20 | <bholley> | odinho: bingo |
| 18:20 | <odinho> | ^_^ The website has an OK first page that will list the main points. |
| 18:21 | <Hixie> | bholley: i agree that we shouldn't expose it, but interestingly this means the supported properties differ based on who is accessing the Window... |
| 18:21 | <bholley> | Hixie: I don't follow |
| 18:27 | <Hixie> | bholley: as in, ('foo' in w) is true if you're same-origin with w and false if you're not, if there's an <a name=foo> in w's document |
| 18:28 | <bholley> | Hixie: well, the same holds for expandos, right? |
| 18:28 | <Hixie> | yeah, i guess it's the same |