06:23
<annevk>
jgraham: it seems you fixed it!
06:29
<jgraham>
annevk: Great!
06:30
<annevk>
ah you just put a copy of Python there
06:30
<annevk>
interesting
06:31
<jgraham>
It's running in its own virtualenv
06:31
<jgraham>
So it's mostly links to the system python, but with a totally seperate set of libraries
06:36
<annevk>
k
09:00
<gazzwi86>
Just wondering where I would submit a proposal for a new html element?
09:01
<tomasf>
implement it, submit patches and hope nobody notices
09:03
<webben>
gazzwi86: see the whatwg faq page
09:07
<Ms2ger>
I would suggest submitting a use case instead
09:07
<miketaylr>
form a CG
09:07
<miketaylr>
(jk)
09:08
<gazzwi86>
I was going to tell you guys what I'm planning on suggesting adding but my computer is crashing at the moment
09:08
<gazzwi86>
so unresponsive
09:10
<gazzwi86>
I was thinking it would be good to add a meta tag for age restricted content. I haven't seen one being used before and figured if it became standard the browsers could better protect younger users from the content they are able to access
09:10
<gazzwi86>
what do you think?
09:11
<jgraham>
Tried that, didn't work
09:13
<gazzwi86>
why?
09:13
<gazzwi86>
I'm sure that if there were EU legislation to go with it, just like the poorly thought out Cookie policy then it could work
09:14
<gazzwi86>
It would be somewhat enforced
09:18
<divya>
TabAtkins: SOS
09:18
<jgraham>
Ah, so you believe in souls?
09:19
<divya>
strangeee question to ask jgraham but only strange if you are asking me
09:19
<Ms2ger>
Sounds about jgraham-level strangeish
09:19
<jgraham>
Oh, although wikipedia suggests that primary school lied to me
09:19
<jgraham>
and SOS doesn't actually stand for anything
09:20
<jgraham>
So, as you were on the philosophical points
09:22
<divya>
OH
09:22
<divya>
I GET IT NOW
09:23
<divya>
i was hoping to gain attention of Tab who is sitting a seat away.
09:23
<divya>
but he is actually revising his talk
09:23
<divya>
jgraham: i was in oslo but you were not!
09:23
<jgraham>
I am not usually in oslo!
09:23
<Ms2ger>
Why not!
09:24
<divya>
:D
09:24
<divya>
exactly Ms2ger
09:25
<jgraham>
Because it would be a long way to commute to Linköping every day?
09:25
<divya>
:D
09:25
<Ms2ger>
Oh, you're *there*
09:25
<divya>
terrible
09:28
<divya>
jgraham: Ms2ger i had this view that box shadows are never hardware-accel do you know by any chance this to be true?
09:28
<divya>
i also dont know how to search for this assertion on the internetz
09:28
<Ms2ger>
No idea
09:29
<divya>
oh it is accel in IE
09:29
<jgraham>
I don't know
09:29
<jgraham>
It sounds implementation specific
09:29
<divya>
yes it is ;(
10:25
<gazzwi86>
Are there any proposed suggestions on how to resolve the restriction of adult content to minors?
10:26
<Ms2ger>
I think the usual suggestion is that adults have a trusted relationship with their children
10:37
<gazzwi86>
Ms2ger: hmmm… that tends not to satisfy the more netortic of idividuals
10:37
<gazzwi86>
neurotic*
10:38
<gazzwi86>
IE uses certificates does it not? Certs. that most people don't bother to apply for
13:09
<reyre_>
are WebVTT Lang Objects not supposed to be translated to DOM content ? http://dev.w3.org/html5/webvtt/#webvtt-cue-text-dom-construction-rules
13:10
<Ms2ger>
"HTMLElement element node with localName "span", and a lang attribute set to the WebVTT Language Object's applicable language. "?
13:11
<Ms2ger>
Looks like a typo in that table to me
13:11
<reyre_>
Ms2ger: i'm also wondering if the lang object should have it's own translation not just as a property on another object
13:11
<Ms2ger>
There's two entries for "WebVTT Class Object"
13:11
<reyre_>
ah good eye Ms2ger
13:11
<reyre_>
ah good eye Ms2ger
13:11
Ms2ger
bows
13:12
<reyre_>
i'll open a bug, thanks :)
13:13
<Ms2ger>
Thank you :)
13:13
<Ms2ger>
Thank you :)
13:26
<darobin>
Hixie: heads up that I just imported <template>, which is a fairly large change
14:10
<GPHemsley>
I thought ETags were for content grading?
14:11
<GPHemsley>
s/grading/rating/
14:18
<zewt>
etag? that's a cache thing
14:20
<reyre_>
any reason why the webvtt pseudo element only allows the matching of a particular number of css selectors?
14:25
<GPHemsley>
zewt: Yeah, I just realized. But I could've sworn there was something with a similar name. PICS?
14:25
<GPHemsley>
yeah, PICS
14:25
<GPHemsley>
that's what I meant
14:44
<GPHemsley>
gazzwi86: PICS already exists http://www.w3.org/PICS/
14:44
<GPHemsley>
gazzwi86: Though apparently it's been superseded by POWDER: http://www.w3.org/2007/powder/
14:44
<GPHemsley>
(which has been shuttered, too)
14:45
<GPHemsley>
which I suppose is to say that it's been tried and failed twice now
14:45
<Ms2ger>
PICS was just a way to block the US Congress, no?
14:46
<darobin>
nicely put
14:47
<darobin>
GPHemsley: PICS was actually moderately successful. For a while almost everyone used it.
14:47
<darobin>
then people realised that no serious product was taking it into account...
14:47
<darobin>
then people realised that no serious product was taking it into account...
14:47
<darobin>
but it stuck for quite a while because it was in a lot of templates
14:53
<annevk>
darobin: you're potentially gonna end up in merge pain
14:53
<annevk>
darobin: Hixie's gonna do other parser changes first
14:53
<darobin>
oh, didn't know that
14:53
<darobin>
annevk: do you know what other changes?
14:53
<darobin>
I would assume they would be relatively orthogonal
14:54
<darobin>
has he started?
14:54
<annevk>
the way the parser talks about tags and such
14:54
<annevk>
he commented on the <template> bug
14:54
<darobin>
ah, so terminology?
14:54
<darobin>
really?
14:54
darobin
looks
14:54
<annevk>
prolly just the WHATWG one
14:55
<darobin>
ah, damn, he commented that right after I started (I had looked at the bug)
14:55
<darobin>
actually, this might be a good hting
14:55
<darobin>
*thing
14:56
<darobin>
annevk: it looks like he hasn't started
14:57
<darobin>
and applying the change for https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=22322 is likely to be easier after incorporating template since it requires the same switches
14:57
<darobin>
and applying the change for https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=22322 is likely to be easier after incorporating template since it requires the same switches
14:57
<darobin>
I'll point that out in the bug
15:08
<annevk>
darobin: fwiw, parts of Shadow DOM will likely move to DOM once I get to it
15:09
<annevk>
might wait a bit more with that though
15:09
<annevk>
seems it's not quite ready yet
15:10
<darobin>
annevk: yeah, that would make sense
15:10
<darobin>
though probably not all the spec?
15:10
<annevk>
no just parts
15:10
<darobin>
annevk: btw did you see that there's a bit of Templates for DOM, too?
15:10
<annevk>
it's already in DOM if you mean the host concept
15:10
<darobin>
no, it's about cloning
15:11
<annevk>
oh, but cloning is extensible
15:11
<darobin>
https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webcomponents/raw-file/tip/spec/templates/index.html#node-clone-additions
15:11
<annevk>
or do you need a different hook because of the children thing?
15:11
<darobin>
if you prefer that to go into HTML just lmk
15:11
<darobin>
it's certainly HTML specific
15:11
<annevk>
oh wow
15:11
<darobin>
yeah
15:12
<annevk>
kinda wish someone would have given feedback to that effect before implementing
15:12
<darobin>
well, it makes sense relative to the feature
15:12
<darobin>
but I'm not sure it's the best place to monkey patch
15:13
<annevk>
it's okay to monkey patch, but you should tell the host spec you're doing that and where
15:13
<annevk>
and how
15:14
<annevk>
surprises are no good
15:14
<annevk>
but it makes sense
15:14
<darobin>
yeah, that's why I was surprised I could see a reaction from you :)
15:14
<darobin>
yeah, you actually can't make it work at all without specifying this
15:14
<gazzwi86>
GPHemsley: thanks! I'll look into that!
15:15
<annevk>
I don't really see why they can't use the "cloning steps" extension hook though
15:15
<annevk>
I guess it doesn't get passed the flag
15:15
<annevk>
or the original algorithm
15:15
<darobin>
in general I don't mind monkey patching, but when it gets to "add this step beneath step 27" I'd rather it not stay that way too long; you know it's just going to go wrong at some point
15:15
<annevk>
meh
15:15
<annevk>
oh yeah, it ought to be integrated
15:15
<annevk>
but it should also be coordinated upfront imo
15:15
<darobin>
annevk: let me look more closely, maybe I can just go ahead and fix that
15:16
<annevk>
nah it needs to go in, pretty sure
15:16
<annevk>
someone file a bug I guess, it's sleepytime here
15:16
<darobin>
annevk: nah, I'll just fix it now — forget about this, I'll add it to HTML and use the proper extension point instead of this
15:17
<annevk>
so you can't
15:17
<annevk>
the extension point is not passed any of the details you need
15:17
<darobin>
how do you mean?
15:17
<annevk>
guess it depends on how you read it
15:18
<annevk>
oh well, nn
15:18
<darobin>
I can just saw "at the step in the cloning algo that say blah other applicable specs, do this"
15:18
<darobin>
nn :)
15:18
<darobin>
*say
15:20
<jgraham>
In general I mind monkey patching
15:20
<jgraham>
HTML even does it to itself
15:20
<jgraham>
and I have seen implementors make mistakes for that reason
15:21
<jgraham>
(if you consider the seperation of "obsolete but conforming" into a chapter at the end that then patches other APIs to be "monkey patching")
15:21
<jgraham>
Or just "obsolete"
15:26
<darobin>
jgraham: I guess it depends on the type of monkey patching
15:26
<darobin>
monkey patching algorithms that don't have a well-defined extension point is a problem
15:26
<darobin>
but other things less so
15:27
<jgraham>
Well, in general monkey-patching introduces non-locality
15:27
<jgraham>
Which is generally considered bad for readable code, and I think the same applies to specifications
15:28
<darobin>
up to a point
15:28
<darobin>
putting everything in the same spec can also hurt readability
15:28
<darobin>
it's a hard problem, let's have beer
15:30
<Ms2ger>
As bz said, the HTML spec is spaghetti code
15:39
<darobin>
at more than one level :)
15:39
<darobin>
the spaghetti are made of spaghetti
15:39
<darobin>
it's hyperspaghetti
15:40
<Ms2ger>
Mm
15:40
<darobin>
which is very sensible if you think about it
15:40
<darobin>
hmmmm, spaghetti
15:40
Ms2ger
would like him some hyperspaghetti
15:40
<Ms2ger>
Now I'm hungry
15:40
<darobin>
yeah, shit I'm hungry now
15:40
<darobin>
heh
15:40
<Ms2ger>
Damn you!
15:40
<Ms2ger>
And me!
15:40
<darobin>
I blame the spec, really
15:41
<Ms2ger>
wfm
15:53
<darobin>
there, annevk can sleep soundly, I put the cloning op in HTML
15:54
<darobin>
there, annevk can sleep soundly, I put the cloning op in HTML
16:05
GPHemsley
worries about darobin's alcohol intake
16:07
<Ms2ger>
He's French, he can deal
16:08
<odinho>
Don't we all.
16:39
<jgraham>
The problem with extension points is that they are the spec equivalent of COMEFROM
16:57
<Ms2ger>
Mm, comefrom
17:42
<GPHemsley>
Is there a tool that validates WebIDL (and perhaps demonstrates its output)?
17:43
<GPHemsley>
Also, is there a way to define a foo() that ouputs a string when called as foo but is an object when called as foo.bar?
17:44
<Hixie>
in webidl?
17:44
<Hixie>
there's legacycaller
17:44
<Hixie>
as its name may suggest, heycam doesn't want you using it :-)
17:44
<Ms2ger>
Nah
17:44
<Ms2ger>
PutForward
17:45
Ms2ger
doesn't see how Hixie matched that with legacycaller
17:45
<Hixie>
foo() returns a string?
17:45
<Hixie>
that's call
17:46
<Hixie>
if you mean an object that stringifies, then there's stringifier
17:46
<Hixie>
if you mean an attribute that can be set to a string but that retains its identity as an object when you do so, there's, as Ms2ger says, [PutForwards]
17:48
<Ms2ger>
I read ... to define an attribute foo that returns a string when gotten as foo, but returns an object when gotten as foo.bar
17:48
<Ms2ger>
But maybe I misread that
17:53
<Hixie>
ah then you want serialiser
17:53
<Hixie>
not putforwards
17:55
<Ms2ger>
GPHemsley, what *do* you want?
18:00
<reyre_>
for the text track spec -- there seems to be a conflict with how TextTrackCueList::ActiveCues is defined to work
18:00
<reyre_>
for the text track spec -- there seems to be a conflict with how TextTrackCueList::ActiveCues is defined to work
18:01
<reyre_>
here http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/the-video-element.html#texttrack in the definition of the webidl it says that it should be all the cues whose start times and end times fall within the current play back time
18:01
<reyre_>
however here, http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/the-video-element.html#dom-texttrack-activecues it says that it is all the cues who have the active flag set
18:02
<Hixie>
reyre_: look at the top of the green box at that first url
18:03
<Hixie>
reyre_: anything that's green, in the spec, as an implementor, you should just ignore
18:03
<reyre_>
Hixie: ah okay >.<
18:03
<Hixie>
reyre_: it's intended for authors and often presents a simplified view of the world
18:04
<Hixie>
(that's what "non-normative" means)
18:04
<GPHemsley>
I want something that looks like a string but acts like an object
18:04
<reyre_>
Hixie: okay thanks
18:05
<GPHemsley>
Hixie: Is that what stringifier does?
18:05
<Ms2ger>
Probably
18:05
<Ms2ger>
Depends on what you mean exactly
18:05
<Hixie>
stringifier handles the "looks like a string" part, PutForwards handles the "quacks like string" part
18:06
<Hixie>
stringifier makes the object have a custom toString
18:06
<GPHemsley>
are they not mutually exclusive? maybe links would help
18:06
<GPHemsley>
if I do console.log(foo) I want it to output a string
18:06
<Hixie>
PutForwards makes an attribute forward getting set to a value to an attribute in the attribute's object
18:06
<GPHemsley>
but I want foo.bar to not be an error
18:06
<Hixie>
that's stringifier
18:08
<GPHemsley>
so now, is there an easy way to test that I'm writing WebIDL correctly? A validator of some sort?
18:09
<Ms2ger>
Hixie, don't you have that in your pipeline?
18:09
<Hixie>
have what?
18:09
<Ms2ger>
Something to check your webidl
18:09
<Hixie>
oh
18:09
<Hixie>
yeah, i use webidl checker or something
18:09
<Hixie>
http://www.w3.org/2009/07/webidl-check
18:10
<GPHemsley>
excellent, thanks
18:11
<Hixie>
anyone here responsible for filing this bug about onresize and onblur? https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=21972
18:22
<GPHemsley>
what is the right type for a dictionary that has a variable list of keys?
18:22
<Ms2ger>
There is no such thing
18:22
<GPHemsley>
really?
18:22
<GPHemsley>
how would one do that, then?
18:22
<Hixie>
"object"
18:23
<Hixie>
but maybe you should describe what you're doing :-)
18:23
<Hixie>
your questions sound a lot like the kinds of questions i ask a few horus before i get scolded for designing bad apis :-P
18:23
<GPHemsley>
heh
18:24
<GPHemsley>
I'm trying to write up document.contentType/mimeType
18:24
<GPHemsley>
and I was hoping to have document.contentType.parameters
18:24
<Hixie>
any browsers interested in implementing that?
18:24
<GPHemsley>
well, the stringified parts are already there
18:25
<GPHemsley>
Opera and Gecko have document.contentType
18:25
<GPHemsley>
whose value corresponds to "MIME type portion" in mimesniff
18:25
<GPHemsley>
whose value corresponds to "MIME type portion" in mimesniff
18:25
<Hixie>
there's a vast difference in complexity between returning a string, and returning an object with detailed parsing and stringifying and so on...
18:25
<GPHemsley>
perhaps, but it's no more complex than the algorithms I've already defined
18:25
<GPHemsley>
in that, they'd be the same
18:27
<GPHemsley>
my thought is that a web author would be able to do: if (document.contentType.type === "image") {}
18:27
<GPHemsley>
etc.
18:28
<GPHemsley>
or if ("charset" in document.contentType.parameters) {}
18:29
<GPHemsley>
oh, actually
18:29
<GPHemsley>
if (document.contentType.parameters["charset"] !== undefined) {}
18:33
<Hixie>
does anyone actually use document.contentType today?
18:34
<GPHemsley>
some people do
18:34
<GPHemsley>
(and it's not like it's going away, because it's used in Gecko extensions and internal code, AFAIK)
18:34
<GPHemsley>
the problem, of course, is that WebKit/Blink don't have it
18:35
<GPHemsley>
(it's probably used more for iframes than the main window)
18:45
<Hixie>
i strongly recommend getting clear indications from browser vendors that they want to implement and extend this
18:46
<Hixie>
or at least clear indications from Web authors that this is something they really need (which would convince the former)
18:46
<GPHemsley>
meh
18:46
<GPHemsley>
you're no fun
18:47
<Ms2ger>
Nobody's ever accused Hixie of being fun
18:48
<Ms2ger>
Except when there are board games
18:49
<GPHemsley>
Ms2ger: Any chance you could speak to whether browser vendors would want to implement this? >_>
18:49
<Ms2ger>
I can't talk for Mozilla, but I'd expect a "meh"
18:49
<GPHemsley>
That's all I ever get regarding mimesniff ;_;
18:50
<Ms2ger>
It's true, it's not fancy
18:51
<Hixie>
html editing apis-- well, they aren't any more sexy, i'll admit. but there's probably more implementation interest in fixing things there and more opportunity to create nice apis.
18:51
<Ms2ger>
Hardly
18:51
<Hixie>
and more likelihood of people having opinions.
18:51
<Ms2ger>
Our editor is all but dead
18:51
<Hixie>
Ms2ger: the web needs better text editing apis, i doubt anyone disagrees with that
18:52
<Ms2ger>
Sure
18:52
<Ms2ger>
Sure
18:52
<Ms2ger>
But that doesn't mean I'm going to read or implement the spec :)
18:52
<Ms2ger>
But that doesn't mean I'm going to read or implement the spec :)
18:53
<GPHemsley>
nevertheless, I should probably at least document the existing document.contentType
18:53
<GPHemsley>
(IE's document.mimeType is weird)
18:54
GPHemsley
has been wondering the last few days why we opted for "MIME type" in favor of "content type"
18:54
<GPHemsley>
s/in favor/over/
18:54
<GPHemsley>
s/ of//
18:55
<Hixie>
because the content's type often doesn't match the "MIME type"
18:55
<GPHemsley>
For reference, this is the existing documentation: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/document.contentType
18:56
<GPHemsley>
and the IDL: http://dxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/dom/interfaces/core/nsIDOMDocument.idl#l276
18:56
<GPHemsley>
for the lazy: "readonly attribute DOMString contentType;"
18:58
<GPHemsley>
on a side note, I think MXR is still better than DXR
18:59
<GPHemsley>
though I suppose it depends on your usecase
19:02
<GPHemsley>
hmm... document.contentType has been around since the CVS days
19:02
<GPHemsley>
so probably much longer than that
19:03
<jgraham>
It took me the longest time to work out that "our editor is all but dead" didn't refer to Aryeh
19:04
<GPHemsley>
2001: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=73847
19:04
<GPHemsley>
jgraham: I didn't even get that
19:04
<GPHemsley>
jgraham: But it makes much more sense now
19:07
<Ms2ger>
GPHemsley, that idl doesn't count anymore, it's now dom/webidl/Document.webidl
19:10
<GPHemsley>
ah, hmm
19:11
<GPHemsley>
oh, so annevk's already specced it
19:11
<GPHemsley>
well then
19:11
GPHemsley
goes back to puttering, then
20:14
<zewt>
GPHemsley: because "mime type" is what people actually call it, not "content type"
20:15
<zewt>
if you call a mime type a content type, i'll look at you strange in the same way as if you said "MiB" :)
20:18
GPHemsley
likes MiB
20:51
<GPHemsley>
If anyone is wondering: light WHATWG green is #CCE79A
20:58
<rillian>
E79A? that doesn't sound web safe.
21:00
<jsbell>
The 90's called; they want their 8-bit display adapter back.
21:06
<rillian>
it's retro now. tell them to go back to their discrete transistors if they want nostalgia.
21:36
<GPHemsley>
is the HTML spec really asking me how satisfied I am with this website?
21:50
<Hixie>
yup :-)
22:40
<GPHemsley>
dependencies of the WHATWG specs: http://whatwg.gphemsley.org/web.png
22:40
<Hixie>
that's actually less bad than i expected :-)
22:40
<GPHemsley>
(HTML is only partial)
22:41
<GPHemsley>
source is here: http://whatwg.gphemsley.org/web.gv
22:41
<Hixie>
yeah i was gonna say, where are the papal bulls!
22:42
<GPHemsley>
:)
22:42
<GPHemsley>
I left HTML until the end, since I knew it had a long list
22:42
<GPHemsley>
and then I only added the ones that were used in other specs
22:43
<GPHemsley>
I probably could have auto-generated this from xref, but I chose to do it by hand instead
22:43
<GPHemsley>
took me ~2 hours
22:43
<Hixie>
:-)
22:43
<GPHemsley>
(not that I knew it was going to take that long when I started...)
22:45
<GPHemsley>
(this would probably be a lot cleaner if I took out the references to RFC 2119...)
22:46
<Hixie>
heh
22:48
<GPHemsley>
well, "a lot" is relative, but it does seem to be a bit cleaner
22:48
<GPHemsley>
though it's got funky arrows
22:49
GPHemsley
goes to eat