| 00:59 | <JakeA> | Lazy question about the Streams API incoming, brace for impact… |
| 01:00 | <JakeA> | Can you have two listeners for the same stream, or is the intent to create two streams? |
| 01:01 | <JakeA> | Eg, if I was returning a stream from a method, but also wanted to feed the output into storage |
| 01:02 | <JakeA> | Would I return one stream, add my own 'listeners' for the offline storage, then return the stream so the user could add their own |
| 01:02 | <JakeA> | or would I return two streams to the same resource, one to feed to the storage, and another to return |
| 01:34 | <JakeA> | (read the spec, looks like streams are single-use, so two streams would need to be created |
| 01:34 | <JakeA> | ) |
| 02:39 | <rastus_vernon> | Thinking of it, why isn't border-width called border-thickness? |
| 09:10 | <Ms2ger> | "@csswg welcomes Daniel Glazman from Samsung Electronics Co., Ltd. as a new member of the @csswg ^DG" |
| 09:13 | <MikeSmith> | the sound of one chair clapping |
| 09:45 | <zcorpan> | 31 mutation event uses in 2012-dec |
| 09:46 | <zcorpan> | so less than 0.1% |
| 09:55 | <MikeSmith> | zcorpan: you collecting data to support removing mutation events? |
| 09:55 | <zcorpan> | MikeSmith: no, i was curious to see if firefox issuing warnings for something meant that usage of it decreased over time |
| 09:56 | <MikeSmith> | ok |
| 09:56 | <zcorpan> | MikeSmith: for mutation events, it hasn't decreased between dec 2012 and sep 2013 looking at webdevdata |
| 09:57 | <zcorpan> | firefox started warning in march 2012 |
| 09:57 | <MikeSmith> | it's probably just all the same sites using it |
| 10:19 | <darobin> | zcorpan: do you have the list of sites handy? |
| 10:19 | <zcorpan> | darobin: that use mutation events? |
| 10:20 | <darobin> | yeah |
| 10:23 | <zcorpan> | http://pastebin.com/9MyByTa9 http://pastebin.com/cmydcCwQ |
| 10:27 | <darobin> | zcorpan: thanks! |
| 12:25 | <zcorpan> | annevk: multi-browser bug filer, yes please |
| 13:12 | <annevk> | I'm missing zcorpan in http://foolip.files.wordpress.com/2013/10/webtech.jpg |
| 13:13 | <annevk> | and a whole bunch of other people. Did it really shrink that much? |
| 13:15 | <zcorpan> | no, it grew by most people on the picture. the rest of us already had a f2f like 2 weeks before so didn't have to join |
| 13:15 | <hsivonen> | "that's a small team" was my thought, too |
| 13:18 | <MikeSmith> | Erik's beard getting bigger |
| 13:19 | <MikeSmith> | soon he'll qualify for the IETF |
| 13:20 | <darobin> | ouch |
| 13:20 | <MikeSmith> | looking forward to seeing zcorpan with a Viking beard |
| 13:20 | <annevk> | zcorpan: ah, good to have some context |
| 13:25 | <zcorpan> | MikeSmith: i tried growing a beard once but it doesn't work. i can't grow a full beard. which i guess is nice from the point of view of easier shaving |
| 13:32 | <Ms2ger> | Oh, wow |
| 13:33 | <Ms2ger> | Servo supports <directory> rather than <dir> |
| 13:34 | <hsivonen> | Ms2ger: in HTML? why? |
| 13:34 | <Ms2ger> | Clearly HTMLDirectoryElement is the interface for <directory> |
| 13:34 | <zcorpan> | hmm, why does svg say that <title> can be shown in a tooltip? |
| 13:38 | <zcorpan> | Ms2ger: does it also support <anchor>, <media>, <quote>, <tablecaption>, <tablecol>, <mod>, <dlist>, <heading>, <image> (not as macro), <olist>, <paragraph>, <tablesection>, <tableheadercell>, <tablerow>, <ulist>? |
| 13:38 | <Ms2ger> | Not afaict :) |
| 13:43 | <annevk> | zcorpan: because in SVG <title> was the way to do tooltips |
| 13:43 | <annevk> | zcorpan: because they bought into the thing that you want markup in your tooltips |
| 13:44 | <annevk> | zcorpan: without really defining the rendering context and such for that, mind you |
| 13:45 | <zcorpan> | and <title> also seems to serve the purpose of being the title of the image, which doens't seem suitable for a tooltip (you don't show HTML's <title> as a tooltip) |
| 13:45 | <zcorpan> | and dirk says <title> also serves the purpose of being the alternative text of the image |
| 13:46 | <annevk> | SVG: broken and rarely used... |
| 13:46 | <zcorpan> | while chrisl says the text in <text>s are sufficient for text alternative |
| 13:47 | <annevk> | Although reportedly we want to use it more in Firefox OS to deal with screen differences and such. So mostly for its vector aspects. |
| 13:47 | <annevk> | zcorpan: you're in a meeting? |
| 13:48 | <zcorpan> | no |
| 13:48 | <wilhelm> | annevk: With IE8 gone real soon now, SVG usage will increase significantly. I use it on all my current projects. It may be shit, but it's still The Way to get vectors on the Web. |
| 13:49 | <annevk> | wilhelm: yeah, it's too bad it has all that other useless baggage. |
| 13:49 | <zcorpan> | the context here was tab announcing bikeshed's railroad thing on w3c-css-wg |
| 13:50 | <zcorpan> | i noticed *now* that i was talking about stuff on a non-public list |
| 13:51 | <annevk> | zcorpan: seems like he's actually saying <svg><circle/> LOL I'M TEXT </svg> is the way to do it |
| 13:51 | <SimonSapin> | Context is Bert complaining about http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-syntax/#token-diagrams not showing up in a browser that does not support SVG |
| 13:52 | <wilhelm> | annevk: I don't disagree with that. <line>, <g> and <circle> ought to be enough for anyone. Drop the rest. (c; |
| 13:52 | <zcorpan> | annevk: but that's not valid svg, right? so that's hardly how it's designed |
| 13:52 | <annevk> | zcorpan: and yet he claims... |
| 13:53 | <annevk> | Which goes to show that nobody really uses SVG or this would have been figured out. But one day... |
| 13:53 | <zcorpan> | in other news, <!DOCTYPE html><svg><title>foo</title></svg> sets document.title in blink |
| 13:53 | <marcosc> | I made my first ever SVG image yesterday :) |
| 13:54 | <zcorpan> | marcosc: congrats! i remember making my first SVG image, i think i made the Atom logo back in 2006 or so :-) |
| 13:55 | <zcorpan> | http://simon.html5.org/sandbox/svg/atom |
| 13:55 | <marcosc> | fancy! |
| 13:56 | <annevk> | That reminds me, need to get "whatwggreen" to mean "#3c790a" |
| 13:56 | <marcosc> | heheheh, I just tried to post my SVG image to twitter and it told me SVG is not an image!!! |
| 13:57 | <Ms2ger> | wilhelm, how about <rect>? |
| 13:57 | <SimonSapin> | annevk: Feel free to send a pull request :) https://github.com/mozilla-servo/rust-cssparser/blob/master/make_color_data.py |
| 13:58 | <wilhelm> | Ms2ger: I haven't actually needed that one yet. But yes, the basic shapes should stay. |
| 13:59 | <zcorpan> | annevk: what happened with about:unicorn? |
| 13:59 | <Ms2ger> | I have... A long time ago I worked on flags a bit on wikipedia |
| 14:06 | <annevk> | zcorpan: still around somewhere |
| 14:07 | <odinho> | zcorpan: Shouldn't that clearly be <unorderedlist>? |
| 14:07 | <annevk> | zcorpan: http://html5.org/temp/unicorn.svg |
| 14:08 | <zcorpan> | odinho: no the interface is HTMLUListElement |
| 14:08 | <annevk> | zcorpan: could even support about:unicorn?whatwggreen |
| 14:08 | <annevk> | although that'd require some escaping I suppose |
| 14:09 | <odinho> | zcorpan: Ah, that was the connection. :) |
| 14:37 | <MikeSmith> | finally found a photo of zcorpan when he had his beard http://goo.gl/CJsQRW |
| 14:38 | <zcorpan> | that looks more like you MikeSmith |
| 14:38 | <wilhelm> | Ho, Ho? |
| 16:36 | <dglazkov> | good morning, Whatwg! |
| 17:20 | <Hixie> | annevk: i thought <desc> was for alternative text in svg... |
| 17:20 | <annevk> | Hixie: rings true, but SVG WG members all say something else |
| 17:23 | <Hixie> | what does the spec say? |
| 17:29 | <annevk> | no idea, don't really care |
| 17:29 | <Ms2ger> | "This involved fixing a flaky test, which was fun." |
| 17:30 | Ms2ger | wonders if foolip is interested in fixing Mozilla's flaky tests |
| 17:31 | <TabAtkins> | s/all say something else/Dirk says something else/ |
| 17:34 | <Hixie> | i'm amused as to how tab and anne disagree about when "everyone" says something. this isn't the first time. :-P |
| 17:49 | <Ms2ger> | "My purpose was to lament..." |
| 17:49 | <Ms2ger> | Anyone have a guess who starts their emails like that? |
| 17:52 | <Hixie> | heh. i complained to dreamhost about low disk space on the host disk for whatwg.org. they responded basically "oops, we'll fix that" and then pasted some boilerplate at the end that said "if it's still going on in 2 days let us know. please include steps to reproduce." |
| 17:52 | <Hixie> | steps to reproduce being out of disk space? :-o |
| 17:54 | <annevk> | Ms2ger: if he only put that effort into doing something about it rather than complaining about my priorities over several emails |
| 18:27 | <Hixie> | TabAtkins: any update on what I should reference re "scoping element" ? |
| 18:28 | <Hixie> | TabAtkins: right now i reference "CSS Scoped Style Sheets, T. Atkins. Your Imagination." |
| 18:31 | <Hixie> | TabAtkins: would http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-cascade/#scoping-element be more helpful? |
| 18:31 | <Hixie> | or accurate? |
| 18:31 | <Hixie> | long term? |
| 18:32 | <TabAtkins> | Will answer you in a bit - debugging something |
| 18:35 | <annevk> | So I need a better name than queryParams by tomorrow. Just go with searchParams and live with query being a spec concept and not exposed in APIs for this? |
| 18:35 | <annevk> | Anyway, movie |
| 18:41 | <Ms2ger> | Wasn't the string called search? |
| 18:42 | <Ms2ger> | Then that's probably good to match, even if it's a poor name |
| 19:26 | <krit> | MikeSmith: |
| 19:26 | <krit> | MikeSmith: ping |
| 19:30 | <krit> | Hixie: annevk: <desc> is better if you want to describe the purpose of the SVG document indeed. |
| 21:23 | <smaug____> | huh, I'm being told http://wiki.ecmascript.org/doku.php?id=strawman:weak_references might actually happen |
| 21:24 | <smaug____> | tc39 is on crack |
| 21:31 | <jamesr__> | who doesn't like observing gc behavior? |
| 21:32 | <TabAtkins> | From what I understand, there are some useful things that simply can't be done without weakrefs, unless you like leaking. :/ |
| 21:32 | <Hixie> | that was my argument for PortCollection, but people aren't liking that either :-) |
| 21:34 | <smaug____> | exposing gc behavior forces all the implementations to use same gc behavior, effectively |
| 21:34 | <smaug____> | or leads to really odd bugs |
| 21:34 | <smaug____> | that weakref proposal especially |
| 21:34 | <smaug____> | PortCollection might not be as bad |
| 21:37 | <fantasai> | Hixie: Probably want to hook into both http://www.w3.org/TR/selectors4/#scoping-element and http://www.w3.org/TR/css-cascade-3/#scoping-element |
| 21:38 | <Hixie> | fantasai: wait, the term is defined in two places? |
| 21:38 | <Hixie> | smaug____: yeah (PortCollection's leak of GC behaviour is a real problem, i just don't know how to do anything to avoid it) |
| 21:39 | <fantasai> | Hixie: one's for scoping selectors, the other for scoping the cascade |
| 21:39 | <fantasai> | Hixie: You can do one without doing the other |
| 21:39 | <fantasai> | Hixie: I'm not 100% convinced the wording is awesome in that respect, but you do need to reference both specs' scoping sections |
| 21:40 | <Hixie> | isn't there some way i can just say "this is a style sheet whose scoping element is this element" and then have CSS take care of the rest? I don't want to keep having to have deep links into CSS, that's a maintenance nightmare |
| 21:41 | <fantasai> | Yeah, that should work. But you should still point at both specs |
| 21:41 | <fantasai> | For selectors, you also have to say what kind of scoping you're doing |
| 21:42 | <fantasai> | There will at some point probably exist a CSS spec that defines scoped styles as an overall concept |
| 21:42 | <fantasai> | but atm we only have the Selectors and Cascade pieces defined |
| 21:42 | <fantasai> | thus HTML has to tie them together :/ |
| 21:42 | fantasai | putters in a text editor a moment |
| 21:43 | <Hixie> | well right now what i do is point to a fictional spec and let that tie them together |
| 21:43 | <Hixie> | which sounds like it might still be the right solution |
| 21:44 | <fantasai> | Maybe something like |
| 21:44 | <fantasai> | This is a style sheet whose selectors are scope-contained [SELCTORS4] |
| 21:44 | <fantasai> | and whose declarations are scoped in the cascade [CASCADE3] with |
| 21:44 | <fantasai> | the scoping element given as [rule to find scoping element]. |
| 21:44 | <fantasai> | s/style sheet/CSS style sheet/ |
| 21:44 | <Hixie> | avoiding doing that is the whole point here |
| 21:45 | <Ms2ger> | annevk-cloud, wdyt about making pre-insert step 6 a switch? |
| 21:46 | <fantasai> | Hixie: I don't think pointing at a fictional spec is helping implementers any |
| 21:46 | <fantasai> | Hixie: And this is still better than defining the mechanics of the CSS cascade and selection inline in the HTML spec |
| 21:47 | <Hixie> | there should just be one spec to point to that does all this |
| 21:47 | <Hixie> | i'm not setting myself up for wackamole, that just wastes my time and is no help to implementors either |
| 21:47 | <fantasai> | I'm not arguing with that statement |
| 21:47 | <fantasai> | but the fact is, such a spec does not yet exist |
| 21:48 | <fantasai> | and it's not anywhere on my immediate to-do list, either |
| 21:48 | <fantasai> | so this is the best I can do for you atm |
| 21:49 | <Hixie> | i think tab said it was on his todo list, which is why it's under his name in the refs right now :-) |
| 21:49 | <fantasai> | Sure, and helping him with it is on my todo list as well :) |
| 21:50 | <fantasai> | but it's so far down, that I wouldn't advise anyone to wait for it :) |
| 21:51 | <fantasai> | It'll happen someday, but for now, I think it's best to just point at Selectors 4 and Cascade 3 |
| 21:51 | <fantasai> | at least that way there *is* a definition |
| 21:51 | <fantasai> | and it's not that much more complicated than referencing a theoretical Scoped Styles spec |
| 21:52 | <fantasai> | Either way you still have to pick what kind of selectors you want :) |
| 21:52 | <Hixie> | i plan on making precisely one change in this area, ever, in the future, and that should be an update to the references |
| 21:54 | <fantasai> | Suit yourself |
| 22:17 | <smaug____> | annevk-cloud: ping |
| 22:17 | <smaug____> | annevk-cloud: why getElementById() looks for descendants only |
| 22:18 | <smaug____> | I'd assume var d = document.createElement("div"); div.id = "foo"; div.getElementById("foo") == div; |
| 22:19 | <Ms2ger> | What does querySelector do? |
| 22:22 | <smaug____> | looks like it is buggy too |
| 22:25 | <TabAtkins> | Hixie: What's the reference you *want* to make? I'll put it in my issues list and make sure I hit it properly when I write that spec. |
| 22:26 | <Hixie> | last time we chatted about that, we ended up on the following text and reference: |
| 22:26 | <Hixie> | A style sheet declared by a style element that has a scoped attribute and has a parent node that is an element is scoped, with the scoping element being the style element's parent element. [CSSSCOPED] |
| 22:26 | <Hixie> | [CSSSCOPED] CSS Scoped Style Sheets, T. Atkins. Your Imagination. |
| 22:26 | <Hixie> | though that seems to be grammatically bogus |
| 22:27 | <Hixie> | oh, no, i misread it |
| 22:27 | <Hixie> | anyway, that seems like sufficient text on the HTML spec's side, right? just needs the hooks on the CSS side, either in "CSS Scoped Style Sheets" or somewhere else |
| 22:28 | <Hixie> | ("Your Imagination" is the publisher, as in "W3C" or "IETF") |
| 22:29 | <Hixie> | MikeSmith: you around? |
| 22:31 | <TabAtkins> | Yeah, that's sufficient. kk |
| 22:32 | <Hixie> | cool |
| 22:32 | <Hixie> | there's some other prose around there that's looking for a home in the css world, fwiw |
| 22:32 | <TabAtkins> | https://github.com/tabatkins/specs/issues/20 |
| 22:33 | <TabAtkins> | Feel free to file issues on me if you'd like me to work on them later. |
| 22:36 | <Hixie> | TabAtkins: filed a couple of them |
| 22:36 | <Hixie> | TabAtkins: (i think there's only two such things right now) |
| 22:36 | <Hixie> | TabAtkins: (do you prefer github's issue system to bugzilla?) |
| 22:36 | <TabAtkins> | Yes. |
| 22:36 | <TabAtkins> | Largely because of Markdown. |
| 22:36 | <Hixie> | fascinating |
| 22:36 | <Hixie> | ah |
| 22:36 | <Hixie> | i was gonna ask |
| 22:37 | <TabAtkins> | but also, you can reply directly, and also you can easily attach commits to them. |
| 22:37 | <TabAtkins> | reply directly from email* |
| 22:38 | <Hixie> | attaching commits to bugzilla is something i have a script for (though i'm in the process of debugging it right now). interesting that you like markdown though. i've always found it annoying when my text gets reinterpreted, especially in specs and programming where random syntax already has meaning. :-) |
| 22:39 | <TabAtkins> | Oh man, Markdown is the *best*. My blog is written in it. I write emails in it. |
| 22:39 | <TabAtkins> | And you have fenced code blocks for when you need syntax. |
| 22:39 | Ms2ger | will refrain from commenting :) |
| 22:39 | <TabAtkins> | Or inline code formatting, too. |
| 22:39 | <Hixie> | to each his own i guess :-) |
| 22:40 | <TabAtkins> | It's kiddie HTML, basically, that looks like writing a plain-text email. It works very well. |
| 22:42 | <Hixie> | i really don't understand why bugzilla is refusing my token |
| 23:56 | <MikeSmith> | Hixie: here now |
| 23:56 | <MikeSmith> | krit: pong |
