| 00:57 | <Hixie> | MikeSmith: know anything about problems with bugzilla? |
| 00:57 | <MikeSmith> | no, nothing new |
| 00:57 | <MikeSmith> | you've noticed done problems? |
| 01:00 | <Hixie> | yeah for some reason my script is getting a crsf token error |
| 01:00 | <Hixie> | and i can't work out why |
| 01:01 | <Hixie> | it looks like i'm doing it right |
| 01:05 | <MikeSmith> | Hixie: ok,maybe something changed in the config after the upgrade a few weeks back |
| 01:05 | <Hixie> | i dunno, it works when doing it by hand |
| 01:05 | <Hixie> | i'll have to look more tomorrow |
| 01:05 | <MikeSmith> | can check on it later today |
| 01:05 | <Hixie> | well, let me know if you hear anything, anyway |
| 01:05 | <Hixie> | no need to really look into it much |
| 01:06 | <MikeSmith> | ok. I'm away from my PC for a few hours yet anyway |
| 01:07 | <MikeSmith> | (ssh'ing to irssi from my mobile) |
| 01:14 | <MikeSmith> | haha https://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=152430#c82 |
| 01:14 | <MikeSmith> | " The question that has been obliquely raised but never answered by the Chrome team is: why don't you hire someone to work on MathML so that someone does own the code and can fix problems when they come up?" |
| 01:19 | <MikeSmith> | this bug is almost as fun as the mozilla WebP bug |
| 01:19 | <MikeSmith> | bugzilla needs done way to rate bugs based on their entertainment value |
| 01:20 | <MikeSmith> | *some way |
| 01:27 | <SimonSapin> | I thought that was what popcorn.js was about |
| 01:27 | <MikeSmith> | eh? |
| 01:28 | <SimonSapin> | (joking) |
| 01:29 | <MikeSmith> | ah |
| 01:34 | <zewt> | MikeSmith: ssh is the worst way to phone irc, heh |
| 01:35 | <zewt> | i have irssi-proxy running on a server, so i can connect to it with a native client on my phone, and it connects to my existing session |
| 01:37 | <Hixie> | irc on a phone is such a bad experience |
| 01:37 | <Hixie> | same as sms or IM |
| 01:37 | Hixie | shudders |
| 01:38 | <zewt> | it works well for me, but i've jumped a lot of hoops to make it that way |
| 01:38 | <Hixie> | how do you get around the lack of a full-size keyboard? |
| 01:38 | <Hixie> | a full-size tactile keyboard |
| 01:39 | <zewt> | eg. i can load the client on my phone, it'll connect to my irc proxy, and the proxy sends the last ~20 lines of each channel to the client, so I can see current context even though I wasn't connected |
| 01:39 | <zewt> | by using the onscreen keyboard like any other mobile app |
| 01:39 | <zewt> | it sucks with ssh (which isn't designed for it), but it's no worse than any other app with a native client |
| 01:40 | <Hixie> | right, the native apps are horrific too :-) |
| 01:40 | <zewt> | that has nothing to do with irc :P |
| 01:40 | <Hixie> | you said it "works well" |
| 01:41 | <Hixie> | i wouldn't describe the SMS or IM experience on phones as "works well" |
| 01:41 | <Hixie> | let alone the IRC experience |
| 01:41 | <zewt> | works as well as anything, and it's pretty well once you're over the "i can't type on this fucking thing" hump |
| 01:41 | <Hixie> | that's the only hump i've had trouble with |
| 01:41 | <zewt> | but it's nothing particular to irc |
| 01:42 | <MikeSmith> | about keyboard, Swype on Android makes typing less painful |
| 01:42 | <zewt> | it took me a while to be able to use a vk without backspacing constantly |
| 01:42 | <Hixie> | it's worse on IRC than on the others because there's usually more volume so the typing is even more of an issue |
| 01:42 | <Hixie> | MikeSmith: android has had that built-in for a while |
| 01:42 | <zewt> | and unfortunately, if you want a keyboard that isn't painful to use, ios is really the only option (android's phone is much, much worse) |
| 01:42 | <Hixie> | oh good lord no |
| 01:42 | <zewt> | tis the facts |
| 01:43 | <Hixie> | the iOS keyboard is way worse than the current Android keyboard |
| 01:43 | <zewt> | n |
| 01:43 | <MikeSmith> | zewt: I'm pretty happy with irssi connectbot |
| 01:43 | <zewt> | unless it's changed completely in 4.3 or so |
| 01:43 | <Hixie> | it changed completely in 4.3 or so |
| 01:43 | <Hixie> | in fact, in 4.3. |
| 01:43 | <zewt> | android's keyboard is designed around "let people make lots of typos, then try to correct it after" |
| 01:43 | <zewt> | which is horrifyingly stupid |
| 01:43 | <Hixie> | 4.3 is when it got the swiping action |
| 01:43 | <zewt> | ios is "make the character input smarter, so you don't make the typos in the first place" |
| 01:43 | <zewt> | i'm talking about keyboards, not swype |
| 01:44 | <Hixie> | i'm talking about the android native keyboard |
| 01:44 | <zewt> | you just said "swiping action" :) |
| 01:44 | <Hixie> | yes |
| 01:44 | <zewt> | that's an input method, it's not a keyboard |
| 01:44 | <Hixie> | the native android keyboard has built-in swiping |
| 01:45 | <Hixie> | you just drag around the keyboard instead of tapping each key |
| 01:45 | <Hixie> | it works so much better than typing on iOS |
| 01:45 | <Hixie> | imho |
| 01:45 | <zewt> | i've used that, don't care for it, but it's a different thing than a keyboard |
| 01:45 | <zewt> | haven't tried all that hard (planning on moving from android to ios for my next phone, so shrug) |
| 01:47 | <zewt> | but comparing keyboards to keyboards (not to other styles of input), my experience is that android is way behind |
| 01:47 | <zewt> | (my suspicion is it's patent crap, but as a user that doesn't help me much) |
| 01:48 | <Hixie> | just so we're clear, you mean that android < 4.3 is way behind? |
| 01:48 | <Hixie> | cos, yeah... it's way behind even android. :-) |
| 01:48 | <zewt> | that's what my main experience is with, yes, but it sounds like your 4.3 thing is about non-keyboard inputs like swype |
| 01:48 | <zewt> | does 4.3 have dynamic hit boxes for keys like ios? |
| 01:48 | <zewt> | i think that's the biggest thing |
| 01:50 | <Hixie> | 4.3 and 4.4 have both majorly upgraded the keyboard, even ignoring swiping on the keyboard (i don't know why you think that's a different input mode though) |
| 01:50 | <Hixie> | (is dragging from shift to a letter also a non-keyboard input?) |
| 01:50 | <zewt> | i don't know why you'd want to do that, heh |
| 01:51 | <zewt> | i just hold shift and hit a letter (the wonders of multitouch) |
| 01:51 | <Hixie> | by "dynamic hit boxes" do you mean "doesn't bring up the letter you tapped"? |
| 01:51 | <zewt> | no |
| 01:51 | <Hixie> | what do you mean by it then? |
| 01:51 | <zewt> | the size of the box corresponding to each letter changes in size, depending on previous inputs |
| 01:51 | <Hixie> | the on-screen size? |
| 01:51 | <zewt> | no, it's invisible |
| 01:51 | <Hixie> | is there a gap between the letters or something? |
| 01:52 | <zewt> | if you type "hell", it knows the next letter is much more likely to be "o" than "p", so the hit box for "o" is enlarged slightly |
| 01:52 | <Hixie> | (on iOS, it's actually "doesn't bring up the letter you tapped", in my experience) |
| 01:52 | <zewt> | at the expense of "p" |
| 01:52 | <Hixie> | so, yes, it's "doesn't bring up the letter you tapped". |
| 01:52 | <zewt> | nothing to do with the visual feedback |
| 01:53 | <Hixie> | ? |
| 01:53 | <Hixie> | if i put my finger on "h" then "e" then "l" then "l" then push on "p" and hold it, what letter does it show me pushing? |
| 01:53 | <zewt> | can you enhance the question |
| 01:53 | <Hixie> | o or p? |
| 01:53 | <zewt> | i'm not talking about anything to do with the visual feedback |
| 01:53 | <Hixie> | on android, it shows the "p", enters the "p", and then if you hit space, it accepts the current autocomplete which is "hello". |
| 01:54 | <Hixie> | i don't understand what you're talking about then |
| 01:54 | <zewt> | on ios, the visual boxes for each letter, and the rectangles that actually register a letter, aren't always the same |
| 01:55 | <Hixie> | yeah. that's what i said. it doesn't give you the letter you pressed. |
| 01:55 | <zewt> | keys that are more likely to be what you want have larger hit boxes (even though you can't see it--it doesn't actually change the key sizes ons creen) |
| 01:55 | <Hixie> | but it changes the popup key that tells you what you pressed |
| 01:55 | <Hixie> | so you press P, and it brings up a big "O" label |
| 01:55 | <zewt> | ... that's a distant side-effect and not what I'm talking about, but okay |
| 01:56 | <Hixie> | the effect is the same as on android, but if you wanted to hit "p", it's harder. sure, it's better. :-) |
| 01:56 | <zewt> | basically, ios tries to prevent typos before they happen, and android lets you make a typo then tries to correct it when you hit space later |
| 01:57 | <zewt> | i find android's method much worse, since it means I have to make a typo, keep typing, and hope it corrects it the way I want; if ios gets it wrong, I see it immediately |
| 01:57 | <Hixie> | you don't have to hope, it's right there on the screen... |
| 01:57 | <Hixie> | just like on ios... |
| 01:58 | <JakeA> | https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/streams-api/raw-file/tip/Overview.htm vs https://github.com/whatwg/streams - what's going on there? |
| 01:58 | <JakeA> | Are these competing standards? |
| 01:58 | <Hixie> | zewt: anyway, this is all completely academic since swiping is the only way to type on a phone. |
| 01:58 | <Hixie> | JakeA: what are they? |
| 01:58 | <zewt> | not until I type more; if I type "hwllo", it's not necessarily going to figure out "hello" as soon as I've typed "hw" (not enough info) |
| 01:59 | <JakeA> | Streams APIs. Trying to work out why there's two |
| 01:59 | <Hixie> | zewt: if i type "hw" it immediately says "He" |
| 01:59 | <zewt> | ios knows that h+vowel is more likely than "hw" or "hr" or "hd", without really caring what the whole word is, so you don't get the typo in the first place |
| 02:00 | <zewt> | anyway, use what works for you :P |
| 02:00 | <Hixie> | zewt: with swiping, it's entirely academic. you draw a line vaguely near the letters, in a tenth of the time it takes to type them, and you get "Hello". |
| 02:33 | <zewt> | new URL("foo") apparently returns a URL object in Chrome, with no properties. :| |
| 02:34 | <zewt> | re: if you're not going to implement it, leave it throwing until you do |
| 02:51 | <MikeSmith> | JakeA: about Streams, I'd suggest talking with Domenic or annevk when they're on |
| 02:53 | <MikeSmith> | basically, I think Domenic wants to get discussion going about his alternative proposal |
| 02:54 | <MikeSmith> | which so far I don't think most people are aware of yet and haven't read |
| 03:00 | <JakeA> | Gotcha, cheers |
| 03:06 | <JakeA> | If I wasn't so hungover I'd have made a great "Don't cross the streams" joke right about now |
| 03:19 | <MikeSmith> | heh |
| 05:35 | <krit> | MikeSmith: did you get my mail? |
| 06:27 | <MikeSmith> | krit: checking now |
| 06:33 | <MikeSmith> | krit: I don't have perms to update /TR symlinks |
| 06:33 | <krit> | MikeSmith: ok, but the FXTF repo? :) |
| 06:35 | <MikeSmith> | krit: lemme make sure I understand. 1) You want http://dev.w3.org/fxtf/masking-1/ to rewrite to https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/FXTF/masking ? |
| 06:36 | <MikeSmith> | and 2) You want http://dev.w3.org/fxtf/masking/ to rewrite to https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/FXTF/masking-2 ? |
| 06:42 | <krit> | MikeSmith: Ok, what the CSS WG really does: |
| 06:42 | <krit> | MikeSmith: http://dev.w3.org/fxtf/masking-1/ should reference to masking-1/ |
| 06:43 | <MikeSmith> | wait |
| 06:43 | <krit> | MikeSmith: and http://dev.w3.org/fxtf/masking/ to masking/ |
| 06:43 | <MikeSmith> | I don't know what you mean by "reference" |
| 06:43 | <krit> | MikeSmith: I couldn’t do that, because the links were not set up properly yet, so I created masking-2 |
| 06:43 | <MikeSmith> | OK |
| 06:44 | <MikeSmith> | reference = Apache rewrite? |
| 06:44 | <krit> | MikeSmith: point to maybe? forward? |
| 06:44 | <MikeSmith> | ok |
| 06:44 | <krit> | yes, that one :) |
| 06:44 | <MikeSmith> | all right |
| 06:44 | <MikeSmith> | I'll get this set up in a hour or so |
| 06:44 | <MikeSmith> | will you still be around to check it? |
| 06:44 | <krit> | MikeSmith: not urgent, but thanks for taking car of it |
| 06:44 | <MikeSmith> | ok |
| 06:44 | <krit> | MikeSmith: yes |
| 06:45 | <krit> | s/car/care/ |
| 06:45 | krit | doesn’t have a car to offer |
| 06:46 | <krit> | MikeSmith: who should I ask because of TR “Apache rewrite” > |
| 06:46 | <krit> | ? |
| 07:17 | <MikeSmith> | krit: probably best to ask the team contacts for the CSS WG or SVG WG |
| 07:18 | <MikeSmith> | Doug or Bert or Chris |
| 07:18 | <krit> | MikeSmith: I’ll do. thanks. |
| 07:18 | <MikeSmith> | but if you want to try yourself, you can e-mail webreq⊙wo |
| 07:18 | <krit> | k |
| 07:20 | <MikeSmith> | I would do it myself for you if I could but /TR symlinks are one of the few things I don't have perms for |
| 07:22 | <MikeSmith> | anyway I'll do the dev.w3.org/fxtf stuff now |
| 07:29 | <MikeSmith> | krit: wait, everything in http://dev.w3.org/fxtf/* is already being rewritten to http://w3c-test.org/FXTF/* per something that Peter Linss asked to have set up |
| 07:29 | <krit> | MikeSmith: ah I see! Didn’t know that it was done this way |
| 07:30 | <krit> | MikeSmith: hm. |
| 07:30 | <MikeSmith> | krit: and everything in http://w3c-test.org/FXTF/* comes from https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/FXTF/ |
| 07:31 | <MikeSmith> | when somebody does a push to https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/FXTF/ it automatically goes to http://w3c-test.org/FXTF |
| 07:31 | <krit> | MikeSmith: in this case it is already a bit weird :P So could I ask you to link http://dev.w3.org/fxtf/masking to css-masking-1/ ?I will rename the folder |
| 07:31 | <MikeSmith> | css-masking-1/ where? |
| 07:32 | <krit> | I would do hg rename masking css-masking-1 |
| 07:32 | <MikeSmith> | yeah |
| 07:33 | <krit> | MikeSmith: and http://dev.w3.org/fxtf/masking links to this folder |
| 07:33 | <krit> | MikeSmith: would that work? |
| 07:33 | <MikeSmith> | I don't knwo whether it would work because I'm still not clear what you want |
| 07:34 | <krit> | http://dev.w3.org/fxtf/masking -> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/FXTF/css-masking-1 |
| 07:34 | <MikeSmith> | and blame the weirdness on Peter Linss because he's the one that asked for this mess to be set up the way it is |
| 07:35 | <krit> | MikeSmith: not blaming anyone, just thought it would be different |
| 07:35 | <krit> | MikeSmith: well, better to not do it on Appache then |
| 07:36 | <krit> | MikeSmith: time will just fix it and I’ll take care of the right folder on future publications :) |
| 07:36 | <MikeSmith> | I can try set up the http://dev.w3.org/fxtf/masking -> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/FXTF/css-masking-1 from an .htaccess file in the dev.w3.org repo right now |
| 07:37 | <krit> | MikeSmith: that would be great! |
| 07:38 | <krit> | MikeSmith: So can I rename the folder right now? |
| 07:40 | <krit> | MikeSmith: have my finger on the “return” key to publish the commit :) |
| 07:41 | <MikeSmith> | please rename it first |
| 07:42 | <MikeSmith> | you can move it back if it doesn't work as expected |
| 07:43 | <krit> | MikeSmith: renamed masking to css-masking-1 see http://dev.w3.org/fxtf/css-masking-1/ |
| 07:57 | <MikeSmith> | krit: ok, http://dev.w3.org/fxtf/masking/ now goes to http://dev.w3.org/fxtf/css-masking-1/ as a expected I think |
| 07:58 | <MikeSmith> | which actually means it's going to http://w3c-test.org/FXTF/css-masking-1/ |
| 07:58 | <MikeSmith> | lemme know if that's not what you meant |
| 07:59 | <krit> | MikeSmith: and now http://dev.w3.org/fxtf/masking/ -> http://w3c-test.org/FXTF/css-masking-1/ :) |
| 07:59 | <MikeSmith> | yeah |
| 07:59 | <krit> | MikeSmith: yes, this is what I was looking for :) |
| 07:59 | <MikeSmith> | cool |
| 08:00 | <MikeSmith> | so you still want the second one set up, or don't need it? |
| 08:00 | <krit> | MikeSmith: http://w3c-test.org/FXTF/masking/ is forwarding, so everything is great now :) |
| 08:00 | <krit> | MikeSmith: thanks! |
| 08:01 | <MikeSmith> | great |
| 08:01 | <MikeSmith> | krit: btw you'll be at TPAC? |
| 08:04 | <krit> | MikeSmith: yes, I am coming. |
| 08:04 | <MikeSmith> | ah good |
| 08:04 | <MikeSmith> | will see you there |
| 08:04 | <MikeSmith> | oh yeah you'll be at TestTWF to |
| 08:04 | <MikeSmith> | *too |
| 08:04 | <krit> | MikeSmith: yes! Be there as well :) Will you see you there I hope |
| 08:05 | krit | needs to prepare the 2min talk for TestTWF at some point |
| 08:46 | <Ms2ger> | cabanier, can you please not implement things that aren't in a spec without even mentioning that in the bug? |
| 09:05 | <zcorpan> | ...i don't know what to reply to https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23468#c1 |
| 09:20 | <annevk-cloud> | Laugh ;) |
| 11:37 | <hsivonen> | is the serial API supposed to cover USB? I see vendorID and productId there |
| 11:38 | <hsivonen> | note the discrepancy between ID and Id... |
| 11:38 | <hsivonen> | will the same API work for Bluetooth, too? |
| 11:41 | <smaug____> | hmm, where is the latest svg spec |
| 12:09 | <zcorpan> | https://svgwg.org/svg2-draft/ |
| 12:10 | <annevk> | smaug____: oddity, hah |
| 12:12 | <smaug____> | yeah yeah, can't fix the old APIs |
| 12:12 | <annevk> | it's not an oddity for such an API to not include self |
| 12:12 | <annevk> | point me to one library that does that |
| 12:14 | <smaug____> | it is odd for an API which is searching a node in a tree to exclude one node |
| 12:16 | <zcorpan> | smaug____: do you expect this to return the form? http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/2616 |
| 12:18 | <smaug____> | no |
| 12:18 | <zcorpan> | why not? |
| 12:19 | <smaug____> | .x is a property of form which has name x |
| 12:20 | <annevk> | smaug____: o_O |
| 12:20 | <smaug____> | :) |
| 12:21 | zcorpan | doesn't follow |
| 12:21 | <smaug____> | I don't see that .x as a tree search operation |
| 12:21 | <smaug____> | if one does, then the .x.x should indeed return form element |
| 12:22 | <zcorpan> | but it basically is a tree search operation: http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/2617 |
| 12:23 | <smaug____> | it is implemented as a search. but .x just points to some object |
| 12:24 | <zcorpan> | getElementById is implemented as a search but just returns some object...? |
| 12:25 | <annevk> | smaug____: to give a more considered reply, it does not just exclude one node, it excludes inclusive ancestors and searches descendants |
| 12:25 | <annevk> | smaug____: and excludes siblings and their respective trees |
| 12:26 | <smaug____> | it excludes the root of the search tree |
| 12:26 | <smaug____> | and just sounds odd to me |
| 12:26 | <smaug____> | feels wrong |
| 12:27 | <smaug____> | but I know, we can't change this stuff |
| 13:30 | <annevk> | bholley: how about slowly trying to move away from multiple globals that can reach each other going forward? |
| 13:31 | <annevk> | bholley: maybe it's better to discuss in a channel that includes bz |
| 13:44 | <annevk> | Whoa, CSS has case-insensitive ID matching in quirks mode? |
| 13:45 | <SimonSapin> | annevk: apparently yeah :/ |
| 13:46 | <annevk> | Where is that defined? |
| 13:46 | <SimonSapin> | http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/selectors.html#case-sensitivity |
| 13:46 | <SimonSapin> | CSS leaves it to the document language to define |
| 13:47 | <annevk> | Selectors is so bah |
| 13:58 | <zewt_> | ... case-insensitive id matching is lame; locale-sensitive case-insensitive matching sounds insane |
| 13:58 | <zewt_> | does it seriously need that, and not just case-folding? |
| 13:58 | <SimonSapin> | zewt: this is ASCII only insensitivity |
| 13:58 | <SimonSapin> | in quirks mode |
| 13:58 | <zewt> | well you said that it leaves it to the language to define, which sounded like locale-sensitivity |
| 13:59 | <annevk> | zewt: the language is HTML |
| 13:59 | <annevk> | (although it should really be DOM, but whatever) |
| 13:59 | <SimonSapin> | SVG is another document language |
| 13:59 | <annevk> | SimonSapin: which goes to show that if you mix SVG and HTML, Selectors has the wrong abstraction |
| 13:59 | <zcorpan> | SVG's ids and classes are also case-insensitive in quirks mode |
| 14:00 | <annevk> | but we're getting back to Selectors is so bah territory |
| 14:00 | <SimonSapin> | even SVG has a quirks mode? |
| 14:00 | <SimonSapin> | sad |
| 14:00 | <zcorpan> | SimonSapin: if you put svg in html... |
| 14:00 | <zcorpan> | XML doesn't have quirks |
| 14:00 | <annevk> | SimonSapin: quirks mode is tied to DOM, not some input stream... |
| 14:01 | <SimonSapin> | let’s put it like this: does image/svg+xml have a quirks mode? |
| 14:02 | <SimonSapin> | I suppose http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/selectors.html#case-sensitivity also defines SVG-in-HTML |
| 14:03 | <zcorpan> | http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/2618 |
| 14:03 | <zcorpan> | SimonSapin: that's XML, and XML doesn't have quirks mode |
| 14:03 | <SimonSapin> | ok |
| 14:04 | <zcorpan> | but the document above has svg as only element and is in quirks mode... |
| 14:06 | <zcorpan> | so, selectors shouldn't make it per-language since that doesn't reflect reality. it should just say, classes and ids are case-sensitive except in quirks mode where they're ascii-case-insensitive |
| 14:07 | <annevk> | Nah, it doesn't need. The mapping from the undefined abstract model to DOM is trivial. |
| 14:10 | <zcorpan> | TabAtkins: how should i mark up http://dev.w3.org/csswg/cssom-view/#concept-geometry-rectangle-origin in bikeshed? i want origin to be like a property of 'rectangle' |
| 14:57 | <zcorpan> | http://dev.w3.org/fxtf/geometry/#DOMMatrix a bit sad to use an image there |
| 14:57 | <zcorpan> | would be cool with LaTeX to MathML or something in bikeshed |
| 15:33 | <hsivonen> | annevk: regarding Halloween minutes of the TAG, what's a DRM Task Force supposed to accomplish? |
| 15:35 | <hsivonen> | I note that TimBL hasn't replied to my recent emails to www-tag. |
| 15:36 | <annevk> | hsivonen: I suspect the idea would be to explore the technical ramifications. |
| 15:39 | <annevk> | hsivonen: Henry suggested he does not have a solid grasp on the subject and therefore "Task Force". I'm not sure what to think about it. |
| 15:39 | <annevk> | I'm generall wary of all Task Forces. |
| 15:39 | <annevk> | generally* |
| 15:40 | <hsivonen> | annevk: I'm wary, too. Not sure what an exploration would output that would result in a meaningful action by the W3C. |
| 15:41 | <Hixie> | so, y'all realise the w3c is doing this drm thing because that's a way it can get more members and thus more money, right? :-) |
| 15:41 | <annevk> | hsivonen: I suspect there's a high likelyhood of a Task Force happening so they can use it to save face. |
| 15:41 | <Hixie> | i mean you keep discussing it like it's something they could see the merits of, but it's obvious from their discussions that they're just post-hoc rationalising |
| 15:42 | <annevk> | hsivonen: W3C is not very good at driving things and always tries to outsource hard decisions. |
| 15:42 | <hsivonen> | annevk: :-( |
| 15:42 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: I think it's for the Membership fee $$$s, yes |
| 15:42 | <annevk> | W$C |
| 15:43 | <annevk> | Oh W€C |
| 15:43 | <annevk> | Although it's mostly Hollywood dollars here I suppose, not so much euros |
| 15:45 | <Domenic_> | Wondering how to reply to that invite to work on streams in the W3C webapps... |
| 15:45 | <Domenic_> | Maybe "I plan to work on this in the WHATWG, but from what I understand the usual procedure is for the W3C to choose a point in time to fork and freeze the standard, change some example text to use different genders, and then get patent protection applied. I'm totally fine with that and willing to collaborate in whatever the W3C needs to continue that path." |
| 15:46 | <SimonSapin> | Domenic_: https://twitter.com/sgalineau/status/395208203358597120 |
| 15:46 | <Domenic_> | SimonSapin: haha yes too true -_- |
| 15:46 | <annevk> | SimonSapin: we like Domenic_, don't scare him :p |
| 15:47 | <SimonSapin> | annevk: don’t worry, he’s already too far in to run away :) |
| 15:49 | <Hixie> | god, that tweet is so on the money |
| 16:22 | <TabAtkins> | zcorpan: I can't find an "origin" dfn in the draft, and your hash doesn't link to anything. What type of definition is "rectangle"? Just a plain "<dfn> rectangle</dfn>"? |
| 17:02 | <annevk> | arv: I actually like URL.prototype.searchList, but I was afraid it might be confusing if it didn't return the same kind of list classList returned |
| 17:10 | <annevk> | Tentative proposal to rename URL.prototype.query is now searchParams with URLSearchParams as corresponding object. https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23586 |
| 17:10 | <annevk> | Speak up now, or forever... |
| 17:13 | <Domenic_> | annevk: +1 |
| 17:16 | <Domenic_> | Your point about using search in both places was a good one. (Even if nobody calls it "search" in the real world :-S.) |
| 17:20 | <annevk> | hash rather than fragment is good too |
| 17:23 | <annevk> | I wonder if this is another case of Java did it first or if this was after one too many late nights at Netscape |
| 17:33 | <TabAtkins> | MikeSmith: I forget what combination of soft/hard redirects we use for CSSWG stuff, but there should be several of them in place now, so FXTF can use the same pattern. |
| 17:37 | <TabAtkins> | I wonder if MathJax uses DOM measurements to format stuff, or if I can port it to Python and do server-side rendering in Bikeshed... |
| 17:43 | <MikeSmith> | TabAtkins: for now I think at least I got krit's stuff set up the way he wants. All I did was add anothether Rewrite rule to the .htaccess in dev.w3.org/fxtf. |
| 17:43 | <SimonSapin> | annevk_: does anything implement both ParentNode and URLUtils? |
| 17:44 | <TabAtkins> | MikeSmith: kk |
| 17:44 | <annevk> | SimonSapin: arv, in his head |
| 17:46 | <SimonSapin> | searchParams, ew |
| 17:49 | <Domenic_> | SimonSapin: kind of ew, but then, queryParams sounds great! and consistency sounds good! so now searchParams sounds good suddenly. |
| 17:52 | <krit> | TabAtkins: Filter Effects uses a MathJax version that is stripped down even more than the minimum version from the web site |
| 17:53 | <krit> | TabAtkins: I use MathML directly in the spec. |
| 17:53 | <krit> | TabAtkins: That is more accessible. |
| 17:53 | <TabAtkins> | MathML directly in the spec doesn't help users with Chrome, though. :/ |
| 17:53 | <krit> | TabAtkins: unless you use MathJax and kick the asses of Blink people in the meantime ;) |
| 17:54 | <krit> | TabAtkins: that is what I am saying. I stripped the lib down as much as I could |
| 17:54 | <TabAtkins> | My current line of attack is to try and convince them to just ship MathJax with Chrome, like we're doing with XSLT. |
| 17:54 | <krit> | TabAtkins: I suggested that as well to pdr. |
| 17:55 | <krit> | TabAtkins: looks like people still don’t like it |
| 17:55 | <Ms2ger> | annevk, ContainedNode? :) |
| 17:55 | <annevk> | Ms2ger: you've been off the naming committee since a long time now :p |
| 17:56 | <Ms2ger> | annevk, phew :) |
| 17:56 | <annevk> | but yeah |
| 17:58 | <SimonSapin> | Domenic_: wait, what? |
| 17:58 | <SimonSapin> | how does searchParams start to sound good? |
| 17:59 | <Domenic_> | SimonSapin: because you have search, which is like a string version of searchParams? i dunno, feels ok to me. |
| 18:02 | <annevk> | Hardly something to get upset over on a Friday night |
| 18:03 | <SimonSapin> | ah, yeah, I support search is legacy |
| 18:03 | <SimonSapin> | I suppose* |
| 18:33 | <Ms2ger> | annevk_, did you see my question about pre-insert, btw? |
| 18:50 | <annevk-cloud> | Ms2ger, did I not answer? |
| 18:51 | <annevk-cloud> | Or was it not about "node is inserted"? |
| 18:51 | <Ms2ger> | Did I miss your answer? :) |
| 18:51 | <Ms2ger> | Ah, no |
| 18:51 | <annevk-cloud> | Pointer? |
| 18:51 | <Ms2ger> | What you thought about making step 6 of pre-insert a switch |
| 18:54 | <annevk-cloud> | Good idea. Should do that maybe once we add ShadowRoot et al to DOM |
| 18:54 | <annevk-cloud> | File a bug? |
| 18:54 | <Ms2ger> | Will do |
| 21:03 | <Ms2ger> | zcorpan: turns out that Servo does, indeed, support <mod> |
| 21:16 | <Ms2ger> | getElementById on ParentNode? Breaks jQuery |
| 21:24 | <miketaylr> | yeah but nobody uses jquery |
| 21:52 | <Domenic_> | Ms2ger: really? wow :-S |
| 21:53 | <Ms2ger> | Domenic_, sure seems to break its test suite... |
| 21:53 | <Ms2ger> | Might be a bug in the implementation |
| 21:53 | <Ms2ger> | But bz implemented it, so I wouldn't count too much on that option |
| 21:54 | <Domenic_> | after all that debate... fun times. |
| 22:00 | <gsnedders> | Ms2ger: Level of surprise: not great. |
| 22:01 | <Ms2ger> | gsnedders, I assume you must have dealt with jquery in QA |
| 22:02 | <gsnedders> | Ms2ger: Once or twice. |
| 22:03 | <gsnedders> | Ms2ger: jQuery is nowhere near as fragile as older versions of Prototype, though |
| 22:03 | <gsnedders> | Or Dojo. |
| 22:04 | <Ms2ger> | Damning it with faint praise, eh |
| 22:06 | <gsnedders> | YUI is the worst, really |
| 22:26 | <annevk-cloud> | Wow :/ |
| 22:27 | <annevk-cloud> | Need to drink some more now |
| 22:31 | <Hixie> | hm? |
| 22:35 | <Ms2ger> | Hixie, web compat |
| 22:35 | <Hixie> | oh, getElementById on ParentNode breaking jQuery,i missed that |
| 22:35 | <Hixie> | wow |
| 22:36 | <Hixie> | what specifically is it that breaks? putting it on Element? |
| 22:36 | <Ms2ger> | I haven't investigated |
| 22:38 | <Hixie> | well what made you say it broke jquery? |
| 22:38 | <Ms2ger> | We run jquery's unit tests, and those failed |