| 03:24 | jgraham | wonders if anyone at TPAC is around |
| 03:25 | <SimonSapin> | jgraham: depends on what you mean by around |
| 03:27 | <jgraham> | Heh |
| 03:28 | <jgraham> | I don't think people in CSS meetings count |
| 03:28 | jgraham | just has no plans for today |
| 04:48 | <annevk-cloud> | jgraham: I am around in a couple of hours |
| 04:49 | <annevk-cloud> | meeting at one first, not sure how long it'll take |
| 04:54 | <MikeSmith> | I'm around too |
| 06:32 | <MikeSmith> | if anybody's around at the Wuzhou, me and Mark Nottingham and maybe some other people are going to meet in the lobby at 3 and taxi over to SEG electronics market |
| 06:33 | <MikeSmith> | to buy some black market electronics and such |
| 06:33 | <MikeSmith> | annevk-cloud: ^ |
| 06:34 | <MikeSmith> | zcorpan jgraham sangwhan__ |
| 06:35 | <zcorpan> | MikeSmith: i'm at the css pre-meeting, but if you're gonna shop for electronics, i'm interested in a mouse since my trackpad is broken |
| 06:36 | <MikeSmith> | zcorpan: you prefer a counterfeit mouse or a legit one? |
| 06:37 | <zcorpan> | MikeSmith: whatever is likely to work on a mac and is relatively cheap |
| 06:38 | <MikeSmith> | hai |
| 07:50 | <annevk-cloud> | still in meeting |
| 07:56 | <jgraham> | annevk-cloud: YOu had plans for this evening, right? Otherwise, if your meeting were finished you would be welcome to join David Burns and Simon Stewart and I at 16:30 |
| 08:24 | <zcorpan> | MikeSmith: turns out a force-reboot fixed the trackpad, so i don't need the mouse in case you haven't bought one already |
| 09:19 | <SimonSapin> | hum. http://w3cmemes.tumblr.com/post/66554037213/today-simon-sapin-learned-a-forbidden-word |
| 09:26 | <Ms2ger> | Heh |
| 10:22 | <stevefaulkner> | MikeSmith: ping |
| 12:01 | <Ms2ger> | jgraham, the rest of the file and even the rest of that function is inconsistent in style, so how about I fix it all up? :) |
| 12:21 | <jgraham> | Ms2ger: Sure |
| 12:22 | <jgraham> | The problem is that I want to use K&R style, but at some point it got changed to whatever the other style is called and I didn't want to argue about whitespace, so I just left it |
| 12:22 | <jgraham> | But I never remember to use the "right" style |
| 12:24 | Ms2ger | looks which one K&R is |
| 12:25 | <jgraham> | It might not be quite K&R |
| 12:26 | <MikeSmith> | ANSI style |
| 12:26 | <Ms2ger> | Yeah, K&R drops braces for single-line blocks |
| 12:26 | Ms2ger | really doesn't like that :) |
| 12:28 | <jgraham> | Oh, no braces for single line blocks is evil |
| 12:28 | <jgraham> | So, like I said, not quite K&R |
| 12:57 | <Ms2ger> | OH: "It's not clear to me why the TPAC 2013 agenda lists the XSL 1.0 requirements but not the XSL-FO 2.0 requirements." |
| 17:15 | <TabAtkins> | Looks like XSL did some interesting things regarding printing, and we're trying to see what parts of that are interesting and sane to translate into CSS. |
| 19:37 | <DaveMethvin> | . |
| 19:56 | <Ms2ger> | Heh: https://twitter.com/Justinian_II/status/399223257259188225/photo/1/large |
| 21:41 | <TabAtkins> | Ms2ger: Haha, nice. |
| 22:17 | <norbert_> | hi all |
| 22:17 | <norbert_> | I have a question |
| 22:17 | <norbert_> | In 2011, you discussed "Limiting the amount of downloaded but not watched video" http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2011-January/thread.html |
| 22:18 | <norbert_> | some suggested an additional "state3" preload state http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2011-January/029967.html |
| 22:18 | <norbert_> | *someone |
| 22:18 | <norbert_> | and I don't think you've ever come back to discussing that |
| 22:19 | <norbert_> | if I embed a 1Gb movie of 2 hours with the <video> tag |
| 22:19 | <norbert_> | and someone watches only the first 5 minutes, how can I prevent them from downloading 1Gb |
| 22:19 | <norbert_> | I have only limited money and a simple content provider, not my own server |
| 22:20 | <norbert_> | how can I use HTML5 <video> for anything over, say, 10Mb, without running into bandwidth problems? |
| 22:20 | <norbert_> | I don't understand why discussion about that additional "state3" preload state has ended |
| 22:20 | <norbert_> | http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2011-January/029967.html |
| 22:20 | <norbert_> | January 2011, that's almost 3 years ago |
| 22:21 | <norbert_> | any thoughts on this? |
| 22:22 | <SimonSapin> | norbert_: this is not what you’re asking for, but have you seen this? https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html-media/raw-file/tip/media-source/media-source.html |
| 22:23 | <SimonSapin> | as far as I understand it allows you to precisely control how stuff gets loaded, but it’s quite involved |
| 22:23 | <norbert_> | yes, I did see that document, but it looked quite complicated |
| 22:23 | <norbert_> | all I did was search for "buffer" in it and read a bit here and there, but then gave up looking at it any further |
| 22:24 | <norbert_> | mostly because as far as I can tell it's some kind of extension which may not be implemented yet in browsers |
| 22:24 | <norbert_> | but I don't know for sure, I'm a noob when it comes to all this |
| 22:24 | <norbert_> | all I'm looking for is a way to embed larger HTML5 videos (.webm) without running into bandwidth problems |
| 22:25 | <norbert_> | and eventually I ran into that suggestion on the whatwg mailing list, that appears to not have been pursued any further |
| 22:25 | <norbert_> | to me it seems that almost everyone considering using HTML5 <video> would run into this problem |
| 22:26 | <norbert_> | except people with near unlimited bandwidth/lots of money, or people who only embed very small videos |
| 22:28 | <rillian> | norbert_: if the user closes the tab before the video finishes the user-agent will stop downloading |
| 22:29 | <rillian> | and most will only buffer a few hundred MB |
| 22:29 | <norbert_> | yes, but what if someone starts watching a 1Gb movie of 2 hours for 5 minutes |
| 22:29 | <norbert_> | few hundred MB is so much for my setup, my content provider would contact me for sure |
| 22:29 | <norbert_> | I want 1 minute buffered |
| 22:30 | <rillian> | sadly, this is why youtube wins |
| 22:30 | <norbert_> | yes, but why |
| 22:30 | <norbert_> | someone made a good suggestion in January 2011 |
| 22:30 | <norbert_> | and for some reason it hasn't been pursued any further |
| 22:30 | <norbert_> | http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2011-January/029967.html |
| 22:31 | <rillian> | I suspect you're correct; no one cares about your bandwidth limitations enough to implement that |
| 22:31 | <rillian> | as simon said, you can control buffering yourself with the media source api |
| 22:31 | <rillian> | but it is significantly more complicated; requires js be enabled, etc. |
| 22:32 | <norbert_> | JavaScript enabled is fine, that media source api, will it work in most browsers and is it cross-platform; the current implementations of it, I mean? |
| 22:32 | <norbert_> | is there any HTML5 frontend on GitHub or wherever that'll take care of it for me? |
| 22:32 | <rillian> | we're implementing it in firefox; it already works in chrome |
| 22:32 | <rillian> | not sure about the other browsers |
| 22:33 | <norbert_> | ok |
| 22:33 | <rillian> | (other browsers don't play webm by default anyway) |
| 22:33 | <norbert_> | well, .ogv or whatever |
| 22:33 | <norbert_> | but em... |
| 22:34 | <norbert_> | so, even when that media source api is full implemented everywhere, it'll still be difficult for most people to use <video> with limited buffering? |
| 22:34 | <norbert_> | since it's implicated ("significantly more complicated') |
| 22:34 | <norbert_> | it's really sad :( |
| 22:35 | <norbert_> | "no one cares about your bandwidth limitations enough to implement that" |
| 22:35 | <norbert_> | makes me sad |
| 22:36 | <norbert_> | everyone - except the big companies/people with unlimited money/bandwidth - who's considering HTML5 <video> is running into this |
| 22:36 | <norbert_> | I really want to use HTML5 <video>, but I don't see any other solution than to convert all my videos to flv for now |
| 22:42 | <Hixie_> | norbert_: what are you trying to do exactly? |
| 22:43 | <norbert_> | I would like to add several large videos to my website, I have limited money and my content provider gives me limited bandwidth; I would like to use the HTML5 <video> tag, but if a visitor watches a 100Mb 10 minute video for 30 seconds, they download almost 100Mb just for 30 seconds |
| 22:44 | <norbert_> | so I want the YouTube-like buffering; that it only loads the next 10-30 seconds or so, even 1 minute would be much better than what it's doing now - just loading everything |
| 22:44 | <Hixie_> | TabAtkins: btw, now that howcome's specs are in the whatwg, we also have bug components for them, so if there's parts of the specs that are vague, file bugs and cc me |
| 22:44 | <norbert_> | but this isn't possible with HTML5's <video> tag, because there's no such option |
| 22:44 | <Hixie_> | norbert_: that's the default, isn't it? |
| 22:45 | <norbert_> | it was suggested in 2011, but hasn't been pursued any further |
| 22:45 | <norbert_> | seehttp://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2011-January/029967.html |
| 22:45 | <Hixie_> | i mean, browsers might not have implemented it right, but... |
| 22:45 | <norbert_> | Hixie_: the default is to load everything when a user presses play |
| 22:46 | <norbert_> | which means a 1Gb video of 2 hours fully loads if a user with a nice Internet connection watches the first 5 minutes |
| 22:46 | <Hixie_> | the default is "Hints to the user agent that the user agent can put the user's needs first without risk to the server, up to and including optimistically downloading the entire resource" |
| 22:46 | <Hixie_> | ah, right. the case you want is preload=metadata |
| 22:46 | <Hixie_> | "When the media resource is playing, hints to the user agent that bandwidth is to be considered scarce, e.g. suggesting throttling the download so that the media data is obtained at the slowest possible rate that still maintains consistent playback" |
| 22:47 | <norbert_> | preload=metadata isn't useful either, because after pressing play, everything loads |
| 22:47 | <Hixie_> | that's a bug, if so |
| 22:47 | <Hixie_> | with the browser |
| 22:47 | <norbert_> | wait, preload=metadata limits loading? |
| 22:47 | <Hixie_> | it's what the spec says |
| 22:47 | <Hixie_> | http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#attr-media-preload |
| 22:47 | <norbert_> | preload=metadata sounds like it preloads the "metadata" about the video |
| 22:48 | <norbert_> | metadata, like length, first image to display as a thumbnail, and so on |
| 22:48 | <Hixie_> | it could be called duck=snake, what matters is what the spec defines it as, not what it sounds like |
| 22:48 | <norbert_> | but I guess I could have misinterpreted that |
| 22:48 | <norbert_> | if what you say is true |
| 22:49 | <norbert_> | then why did rillian comment like what I want is impossible |
| 22:49 | <Hixie_> | no need to take my word for it, you can read the spec to check me |
| 22:50 | <norbert_> | " When the media resource is playing, hints to the user agent that bandwidth is to be considered scarce, e.g. suggesting throttling the download so that the media data is obtained at the slowest possible rate that still maintains consistent playback." |
| 22:50 | <norbert_> | yeah |
| 22:50 | <rillian> | norbert_: what I was was trying to say is that browsers are between what you want and what you're afraid they will do. |
| 22:50 | <norbert_> | I don't understand what you mean |
| 22:50 | <norbert_> | they are "between"? |
| 22:50 | <norbert_> | they load more than I'd probably want, but less than everything? |
| 22:51 | <norbert_> | because the browser can decide |
| 22:51 | <norbert_> | but here for example |
| 22:51 | <norbert_> | http://www.popot.org/get_the_games.php?extra=PoP3D_making |
| 22:51 | <norbert_> | when I press play, in the first 13 seconds it loads the whole thing (24Mb) |
| 22:52 | <norbert_> | of the 12:08 minute video |
| 22:52 | <norbert_> | 13 seconds |
| 22:52 | <norbert_> | 24Mb |
| 22:52 | <norbert_> | and it's set on preload="metadata" |
| 22:53 | <norbert_> | that's in Firefox 25.0, by the way |
| 22:53 | <norbert_> | so what you're saying is that, maybe, if that would be 200Mb it wouldn't load everything but stop somewhere after 24Mb? |
| 22:55 | <norbert_> | all I see is that Firefox is ignoring the whatwg specification |
| 22:55 | <Hixie_> | file a bug |
| 22:55 | <norbert_> | because 24Mb (12:08 minutes) in 13 seconds doesn't seem like considering bandwidth scarce |
| 22:57 | <norbert_> | preload="metadata" |
| 22:57 | <KevinMarks> | You can throttle on your server end, surely? Tcp is a negotiation |
| 22:57 | <norbert_> | maybe W3C describes that differently and Firefox doesn't implement what whatwg says? |
| 22:58 | <Hixie_> | if firefox is implementing the w3c spec and not the whatwg spec, also file a bug :-) |
| 22:58 | <norbert_> | KevinMarks: I'm a basic Internet user and only have an account with a content provider, with limited bandwidth; I don't think I can do much except add a .htaccess? |
| 22:59 | <norbert_> | http://www.w3.org/wiki/HTML/Elements/video |
| 22:59 | <norbert_> | "metadata": Hints to the UA that the user is not expected to need the video, but that fetching its metadata (dimensions, first frame, track list, duration, and so on) is desirable. |
| 22:59 | <norbert_> | that whole scarce thing is a whatwg thing |
| 22:59 | <norbert_> | and Firefox probably just ignores that |
| 22:59 | <Hixie_> | uh, that's not the w3c fork of the html spec, it's just some wiki page |
| 23:00 | <norbert_> | are you sure |
| 23:00 | <norbert_> | w3.org is the W3C website |
| 23:00 | <Hixie_> | it's just some wiki page on the w3c website, yes |
| 23:00 | <norbert_> | oh, never mind, I understand what you mean |
| 23:01 | <norbert_> | http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/embedded-content-0.html#the-video-element |
| 23:01 | <norbert_> | "When the media resource is playing, hints to the user agent that bandwidth is to be considered scarce, e.g. suggesting throttling the download so that the media data is obtained at the slowest possible rate that still maintains consistent playback. " |
| 23:01 | <norbert_> | so it's in the W3C spec as well then |
| 23:01 | <KevinMarks> | If your content providers bandwidth is limited, they can serve packets out at a slower rate. |
| 23:01 | <Hixie_> | hahaha, really? the w3c spec doesn't get that right even? |
| 23:02 | <Hixie_> | no, they do say the same as the whatwg spec |
| 23:02 | <Hixie_> | "When the media resource is playing, hints to the user agent that bandwidth is to be considered scarce, e.g. suggesting throttling the download so that the media data is obtained at the slowest possible rate that still maintains consistent playback. |
| 23:02 | <norbert_> | yes, see my paste just now |
| 23:02 | <Hixie_> | " |
| 23:02 | <Hixie_> | it's the same text |
| 23:02 | <norbert_> | yes |
| 23:02 | <Hixie_> | ah, right |
| 23:02 | <norbert_> | so I should file a Firefox bug report then |
| 23:02 | <Hixie_> | you should do that regardless of what the w3c spec says |
| 23:02 | <norbert_> | yes, but it's nice when I can say it's mentioned everywhere :) |
| 23:03 | <Hixie_> | i don't think you realise quite how little it matters whether or not the w3c spec says this or not, but whatever floats your boat :-) |
| 23:04 | <norbert_> | the specs should rename "metadata" IMO |
| 23:04 | <norbert_> | it's misleading |
| 23:04 | <norbert_> | anyways |
| 23:04 | <Hixie_> | too late now |
| 23:04 | <norbert_> | thanks for all the feedback and thanks for pointing out the scarce bit of metadata |
| 23:04 | <norbert_> | will file a bug report with Firefox |
| 23:06 | <norbert_> | hm |
| 23:06 | <norbert_> | time for bed |
| 23:06 | <norbert_> | thanks again, bye |