| 00:02 | <Hixie_> | smaug____: sounds like it took the screenshot too early |
| 00:02 | <Hixie_> | (it should say "log:" something) |
| 00:02 | <Hixie_> | (or just "log:") |
| 00:03 | <benschwarz> | @Hixie_ :thumbsup: to your email |
| 00:03 | <smaug____> | let me retry |
| 00:03 | Hixie_ | nods to benschwarz |
| 00:04 | <smaug____> | Hixie_: oh, it certainly doesn't load the test |
| 00:04 | <Hixie_> | nothing in the top textarea? |
| 00:05 | <smaug____> | 404 |
| 00:05 | <smaug____> | odd |
| 00:05 | <Hixie_> | odd indeed |
| 00:06 | <smaug____> | don't have an IE running so can't help after all, sorry |
| 00:09 | <Hixie_> | no worries |
| 00:09 | <Hixie_> | thanks for trying! |
| 00:33 | <WeirdAl> | Hixie: |
| 00:33 | <WeirdAl> | log: null |
| 00:33 | <WeirdAl> | rendering mode: CSS1Compat |
| 00:33 | <WeirdAl> | document has no title |
| 00:33 | <WeirdAl> | that's IE10 |
| 00:45 | <Hixie_> | WeirdAl: thanks! |
| 02:09 | <jwalden> | someone, or someones, *really* don't like that whole don't-need-use-cases thing, judging by w3cmemes today |
| 02:09 | <GPHemsley> | Yeah, well, this *is* the WHATWG. |
| 02:11 | <jwalden> | there's dislike, then there's *really* dislike :-) |
| 02:11 | <jwalden> | I mean, use cases seem like a totally desirable thing to me |
| 02:12 | <jwalden> | but I wouldn't have gone on ten or so memes in a single day about it :-) |
| 02:12 | <darobin> | jwalden: it's TPAC, you always get a lot of w3cmemes out of that |
| 02:13 | <jwalden> | ah, good point |
| 02:13 | jwalden | returns to C++11 rvalue reference madness |
| 02:14 | <MikeSmith> | 百花运动, as we say in China |
| 02:15 | <MikeSmith> | = "Let a hundred memes about use cases blossom" |
| 02:37 | <Domenic_> | WeirdAl: actually https://github.com/whatwg/streams |
| 03:08 | <zewt> | while the parched among us search for juice cases |
| 03:24 | <zcorpan_> | Domenic_: you need a logo for streams |
| 03:27 | <Domenic_> | zcorpan_: definitely. does annevk do all the cool logos himself? |
| 03:30 | <TabAtkins> | heycam: Am I using [SameObject]/readonly/etc correct here? http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-images/#elementsources |
| 03:30 | <TabAtkins> | Domenic_: I think he does, yeah. |
| 03:30 | <TabAtkins> | Do a line with circles, inside the whatwg circle. |
| 03:30 | <TabAtkins> | Like, beads on a string. |
| 03:30 | <TabAtkins> | Or anal beads. Same deal. |
| 03:31 | <zewt> | did i walk in on something here |
| 03:31 | <TabAtkins> | Yup. |
| 03:31 | <TabAtkins> | This is real. |
| 03:31 | <zewt> | it's real something |
| 03:31 | <zewt> | unfortunately something is a dangling pointer, so it's any guess what it is |
| 03:32 | wilhelm_ | blinks. |
| 03:33 | zewt | divs. |
| 03:34 | <zcorpan_> | Domenic_: i made the quirks and xhr logos |
| 03:34 | <zcorpan_> | and dom |
| 03:34 | <Domenic_> | zcorpan_: would love a logo if you have the time :) |
| 03:35 | <zcorpan_> | Domenic_: do you have an idea of what it should look like? |
| 03:35 | <Domenic_> | zcorpan_: hmm, will think about it... maybe... pipes of some sort? |
| 03:36 | <zcorpan_> | a smoking pipe? |
| 03:38 | <annevk> | could be a river |
| 03:39 | <annevk> | ooh |
| 03:39 | <annevk> | a Mario-like pipe with the ? sticking out |
| 03:39 | <annevk> | or with ? in a square box above |
| 03:41 | <zcorpan_> | a smoking pipe kinda looks like a question mark |
| 03:41 | <darobin> | hop into IRC, read backlog, hear about anal beads and crack pipes |
| 03:41 | <zcorpan_> | annevk: i don't follow |
| 03:41 | <darobin> | just another day on #whatwg |
| 03:43 | <annevk> | zcorpan_: the pipe references piping streams, the question mark WHATWG, the whole logo Mario, because Mario is cool |
| 03:54 | <darobin> | I've heard worse design briefs :) |
| 03:56 | <zcorpan_> | at least i found a public domain smoking pipe http://www.clipartlord.com/free-smoking-pipe-clip-art/ |
| 03:59 | <zcorpan_> | or http://openclipart.org/detail/170767/pipe-by-hatalar205-170767 appears to be the original |
| 04:51 | <jgraham> | So, if I was being serious, I would say that the streams logo should represent water |
| 04:52 | <jgraham> | But if I'm not, it should self-evidently reference ghostbusters |
| 05:07 | <Domenic_> | Heh I actually meant like water pipes... smoking pipes seems strange. |
| 05:07 | <zewt> | and if you can't decide, it should represent crossing the water streams |
| 05:35 | <annevk> | <3 memes |
| 05:52 | <Domenic_> | is w3cmemes run by whatwg peeps? seems like it most days |
| 06:05 | <darobin> | Domenic_: it's not that simple :) |
| 06:06 | <darobin> | a lot of the people posting there are from W3C, it's a bit of everyone |
| 06:08 | <darobin> | Domenic_: and then for the really obscure stuff there's w3tmemes... |
| 07:05 | <annevk> | So I emailed some feedback to ietf⊙io, but it hasn't arrived... |
| 07:06 | <annevk> | Or maybe I don't understand how the mailing list feedback works. |
| 07:29 | <MikeSmith> | annevk: is that mailing list archived? |
| 07:29 | <MikeSmith> | or you're subscribed to it I guess |
| 07:29 | <annevk> | MikeSmith: yeah is, email has arrived apparently |
| 07:29 | <MikeSmith> | ok |
| 07:30 | <annevk> | MikeSmith: just not in https://www.ietf.org/ibin/c5i?mid=6&rid=48&gid=0&k1=933 yet |
| 07:30 | <MikeSmith> | (I asked because some of the IANA feedback list are not actually archived and you can't subscribed to them) |
| 07:30 | <MikeSmith> | annevk: ah |
| 07:31 | <zcorpan_> | jgraham: re websocket, what am i expected to do and why was i assigned an action without being present? :-P |
| 07:31 | <MikeSmith> | wow the layout of https://www.ietf.org/ibin/c5i?mid=6&rid=48&gid=0&k1=933 |
| 07:31 | <MikeSmith> | I think it needs even more blue hyperlinks |
| 07:32 | <MikeSmith> | when the IETF does hyperinked HTML, it does hyperlinked HTML... |
| 07:32 | <zcorpan_> | .... ?? http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/webapps/20131112#l-698 |
| 07:33 | <MikeSmith> | btw not to sound paranoid but I've been having problems with weird Quija-board like mouse behavior |
| 07:33 | <MikeSmith> | like something is wrong with my trackpad a la zcorpan_ |
| 07:34 | <zcorpan_> | good thing you bought a mouse then |
| 07:34 | <MikeSmith> | well I am now thinking it feels like somebody is remotely connected to my machine |
| 07:35 | <MikeSmith> | trying to see what state secrets I've collected so far |
| 07:36 | <MikeSmith> | it's weird because one second the mouse behavior gets all quicksand-y/Quija-board-like ghost in the machine, and the next second it's fine and normal again |
| 07:37 | <MikeSmith> | and using top(1) and Activity Monitor and siuch doesn't show any local process sucking up CPU or whatever |
| 07:50 | <zcorpan_> | wow w3cmemes is on a roll about the use cases |
| 07:52 | <darobin> | zcorpan_: well, frankly, if glazou had wanted to become a w3cmemes superstar he could not have chosen a better way to do so |
| 07:54 | <jgraham> | zcorpan_: Uh, I don't know. I think it might have been for review that you are doing anyway |
| 08:01 | <zcorpan_> | http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/actions/706 |
| 08:05 | <zcorpan_> | Domenic_: http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/2634 |
| 08:16 | <jgraham> | zcorpan: Ah, right. I think richt might have accidentially volunteered you for that |
| 08:16 | <jgraham> | I don't think it should have been made into an action without your agreement |
| 08:16 | <jgraham> | Although I also don't know if it matters |
| 08:57 | <jgraham> | re: https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/showcomment?chain=813 does the spec actually say that you can't set .value to an invalid value? I can't see that it does. |
| 08:57 | <jgraham> | s/invalid/out of range/ |
| 08:59 | <annevk> | Hixie_: you around? |
| 08:59 | <annevk> | Hixie_: I cannot find "relevant settings object" in HTML |
| 08:59 | <annevk> | Hixie_: should I use the "settings object" associated with the global? |
| 08:59 | <annevk> | Hixie_: or the entry settings object associated with the global? |
| 09:00 | <annevk> | Hixie_: would the latter work for both documents and workerS? |
| 09:03 | <annevk> | Hixie_: I guess I should just use the "script settings object" associated with the global |
| 09:28 | <zcorpan_> | Ms2ger: see https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/r/424 |
| 09:33 | <Ms2ger> | zcorpan_, huh, wow |
| 09:33 | <Ms2ger> | I'll review later |
| 09:34 | <annevk> | Hixie_: commented on bug instead |
| 09:51 | <benschwarz> | Hixie_: is there a server environment that we have access to that would build the developer spec? |
| 10:19 | <sankha93> | Ms2ger is here as well? :) |
| 10:24 | <Ms2ger> | Ohai |
| 11:32 | <hsivonen> | annevk-cloud: the point of the replacement encoding is defeated if it can be overridden from the encoding menu |
| 11:32 | <hsivonen> | annevk-cloud: but by the time the menu stuff is processed, we haven't looked at <meta> yet |
| 11:33 | <hsivonen> | annevk-cloud: the menu is so sad |
| 11:34 | <hsivonen> | annevk-cloud: I could easily defend against the static case to disable the menu when a browsing context contains the replacement encoding |
| 11:34 | <hsivonen> | annevk-cloud: but that doesn't take into account subsequent iframe navigations |
| 11:34 | <hsivonen> | annevk-cloud: ideas? |
| 13:56 | <hsivonen> | annevk-cloud: how come the Encoding Standard doesn't define some UCS2 labels for UTF-16BE? |
| 14:07 | <karlcow> | for Anselm http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2013Nov/0006.html |
| 14:30 | <Ms2ger> | Wait, this really happened: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/css/20131112#l-466 |
| 14:33 | <zewt> | next up, MIGHT OCCASIONALLY |
| 14:33 | <Lachy> | WTF? Did they not realise that was an April Fools day RFC? |
| 14:34 | <zewt> | let's count ourselves lucky the onion doesn't write many spec-related articles |
| 14:35 | <Lachy> | huh. They even referred to it as the "April 1 update to RFC2119" earlier in the discussion. They must have known. |
| 14:42 | <hsivonen> | Ms2ger: maybe the non-normative security considerations for EME ought to use the terms from http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6919 |
| 14:46 | <jgraham> | Lachy: They were very proud of it :) |
| 14:47 | <Ms2ger> | jgraham has been stalking the csswg meeting? |
| 14:47 | <annevk-cloud> | hsivonen: we cannot disable it whenever? |
| 14:48 | <hsivonen> | annevk-cloud: I think I've figured out how to make the charset menu not apply to replacement encoding resources |
| 14:48 | <hsivonen> | annevk-cloud: adds complexity to the parser |
| 14:48 | <hsivonen> | but hey, security is important |
| 14:48 | <hsivonen> | but not important enough to just get rid of the menu |
| 14:52 | <hsivonen> | It's been a while since I've worked on this part of the parser. Need to figure out what I was thinking earlier. :-( |
| 14:52 | <hsivonen> | fortunately, this isn't Perl code |
| 14:55 | <hsivonen> | annevk-cloud: have you investigated IE's support of Shift_JIS sequences in ISO-2022-JP yet? |
| 15:15 | <annevk-cloud> | hsivonen: someone else has, see open bugs |
| 15:16 | <annevk-cloud> | going to get some sleep now; let me know if you need something sorted |
| 15:58 | <Ms2ger> | TabAtkins, did anybody say something about *external* css? |
| 15:59 | <TabAtkins> | Ms2ger: I suppose not, but features that only work in internal CSS are weird. |
| 16:53 | <SimonSapin> | Lachy: yes we knew, and despite being an April’s fools the description of "may wish to" was perfect for this |
| 17:36 | <dglazkov> | good morning, Whatwg! |
| 18:21 | <WeirdAl> | thanks Domenic_ |
| 19:36 | <aklein> | good morning, #whatwg, anyone about know much about the history of XML prefixes (and especially their reflection in DOM)? |
| 19:36 | <gsnedders> | aklein: As to where they come from originally? |
| 19:38 | <aklein> | gsnedders: rather, as to whether they were ever supposed to be settable via DOM apis |
| 19:38 | <aklein> | in particular, the Node.prefix IDL attribute |
| 19:39 | <aklein> | WebKit and Blink make it settable, but from what I can tell it's readonly in Firefox and IE 9 |
| 19:40 | <aklein> | oh noes, it's settable in IE in an XML doc |
| 19:40 | <aklein> | for elements, anyway |
| 19:40 | <gsnedders> | DOM Level 2 says "NO_MODIFICATION_ALLOWED_ERR: Raised if this node is readonly." |
| 19:41 | <aklein> | it does talk about cases where it's allowed to be notified, though |
| 19:41 | <aklein> | modified, that is |
| 19:41 | <aklein> | thanks |
| 19:42 | <aklein> | DOM Level 2 is, I think, my answer |
| 19:42 | <aklein> | now I'm curious about IE 11 |
| 19:42 | <gsnedders> | I'm not sure it really defined where the readonlyness of a node is defined |
| 19:43 | <aklein> | IIRC, there's only one kind of readonly node: EntityReference |
| 19:43 | <aklein> | but I think we removed that interface from both WebKit and Blink |
| 19:44 | <gsnedders> | Entities are, too |
| 19:44 | <gsnedders> | Entity nodes and all their decendents are |
| 19:44 | <gsnedders> | Per DOM Level 2. |
| 19:44 | <gsnedders> | You can try looking through MO archives, if you have access. |
| 19:45 | <gsnedders> | Who knows about the history of this! |
| 19:46 | <aklein> | I'm now curious when Gecko decided to simplify all this. Perhaps they're simply implementing annevk's DOM spec |
| 19:47 | <Ms2ger> | We never implemented a lot of it |
| 19:53 | <gsnedders> | Nobody implemented large parts of the old DOM specs |
| 19:55 | <Ms2ger> | Right |
| 20:45 | <Hixie_> | benschwarz: i can set you up an account on the whatwg.org server, sure |
| 20:45 | <Hixie_> | benschwarz: in fact, i think you already have one (since that's where developers.whatwg.org is hosted) |
| 20:46 | <Hixie_> | as far as rfc6919 goes... when you find a definition in that rfc appropriate, the right solution isn't to use it, the right solution is to realise that you are writing a bad spec. |
| 21:27 | <Domenic_> | aklein: it looks like http://dom.spec.whatwg.org/#element says it's readonly and only exists on Element, not Node. |
| 21:54 | <karlcow> | marcosc: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-web-mobile/2013Nov/0000.html |
| 21:54 | <Hixie_> | heycam|away: ping https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23744 |
| 21:55 | <karlcow> | marcosc: What are the data you want to extract? |
| 22:13 | <aklein> | Domenic_: yeah, I like what modern DOM says, but I'm curious about the history here (not that I can imagine what code would be modifying prefix and expecting something interesting to happen) |