| 01:38 | <jungkees> | Domenic: https://html.spec.whatwg.org/#dom-messageport-postmessage step 2 throws and aborts. |
| 01:39 | <jungkees> | Domenic: Infra clarified throw terminates the algorithm.. Does abort the steps there intentional or can be removed? |
| 01:40 | <Domenic> | jungkees: can be removed. We are converting sections of HTML as we touch them, but lots left to do. |
| 01:40 | <jungkees> | Domenic: Okay. Have the same in SW spec. I'll remove them |
| 01:44 | <Domenic> | jungkees: great. I will file an issue on HTML to track updating ourselves too. |
| 01:44 | <jungkees> | Sounds good. Thanks |
| 01:50 | <jungkees> | Domenic: related but something different in https://html.spec.whatwg.org/#dom-messageport-postmessage step 5 |
| 01:50 | <jungkees> | Domenic: It says it rethrows any exception from StructuredSerializeWithTransfer |
| 01:51 | <jungkees> | Domenic: and Infra says: "Throw" will make the caller automatically rethrow the given value, if any, and thereby terminate the caller’s algorithm. |
| 01:51 | <jungkees> | Domenic: according to Infra definition, it seems we may not need the rethrow step here |
| 01:53 | <jungkees> | Domenic: but then the visibility of the behavior won't be apparent to the caller.. so we may need this rethrow step to clearly say we throw here anyway? |
| 01:54 | <Domenic> | jungkees: yeah, this one is a bit trickier, especially because we are mixing "ES-style" abstract operations (StructuredSerializeWithTransfer) with the normal prose style. ES-style abstract operations, in theory, return completion values. So I see "rethrow any exception" as a way of clarifying the boundary. |
| 01:55 | <jungkees> | Okay. Explicitly rethrowing in this prose makes more sense to me too. |
| 02:51 | <Domenic> | annevk: so I guess we are staying with flags and then converting all at once to booleans one day? I'm sorry I keep needing to be reminded... |
| 04:04 | <Domenic> | Hmm, unfortunate Rust's new http create uses URI instead of URL... maybe SimonSapin is interested in setting them straight? https://carllerche.github.io/http/http/uri/struct.Uri.html |
| 04:06 | <Domenic> | Looks like it is being discussed in https://github.com/carllerche/http/issues/73 ... this looks not so fun to get in to. |
| 04:10 | <Domenic> | (But I did anyway...) |
| 04:22 | <MikeSmith> | I admire you for putting in the effort on cases like that |
| 04:22 | <MikeSmith> | that one seems like a more real chance of success in enlightening others than some cases |
| 04:23 | <MikeSmith> | I would have gone with “unfortunate” rather than “tragic” there though :) |
| 04:25 | <Domenic> | Easy enough of an edit :) |
| 04:26 | <MikeSmith> | Domenic: related, I dunno if you been following https://github.com/httpwg/http11bis/issues/26 but that is one of cases I had in mind that seem less hopeful |
| 04:27 | <Domenic> | Oh boy that looks fun |
| 04:28 | <Domenic> | Good guy mnot giving it a try |
| 04:29 | <MikeSmith> | yup |
| 04:29 | <Domenic> | Going to need to be patched in Fetch I guess? Or "HTTP/1 for interoperable clients" |
| 04:29 | <MikeSmith> | seems unresolved |
| 04:30 | <MikeSmith> | other than the suggestion to annevk that the discussion be taken offline |
| 04:31 | <MikeSmith> | which kind of seems like not the right way to deal with it, but not my business |
| 04:34 | <Domenic> | Oh, there are some other fun issues there... e.g. https://github.com/httpwg/http11bis/issues/34 |
| 04:34 | <Domenic> | Subscribing, although I'm sure it'll just raise my blood pressure |
| 04:34 | <MikeSmith> | haha |
| 04:34 | <MikeSmith> | yeah I know the feeling |
| 04:35 | <MikeSmith> | Joseph Conrad called this “the fascination with the abomination” |
| 04:36 | <Domenic> | Re https://github.com/httpwg/http11bis/issues/33, annevk (or anyone) do you know if MIME Sniffing is a good reference? |
| 04:36 | <Domenic> | It needs a bit of love to get rid of all the red XXX boxes, but I'd imagine it's pretty solid... |
| 04:37 | <Domenic> | (It also uses old spec-writing styles, as we discovered in e.g. https://github.com/whatwg/mimesniff/pull/26 ) |
| 04:42 | <Domenic> | I guess most of the XXXs are around the question of whether values should be capped at 127 bytes |
| 04:46 | <MikeSmith> | which I’m kvetching I’d just like to say, I hope Google content-dev people are learning the right lesson from https://bugs.chromium.org/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=489954 |
| 04:48 | <MikeSmith> | I mean as far as why the should not speculatively lock themselves into immature spec features before they have a clear trajectory to genuine cross-browser support |
| 04:48 | <MikeSmith> | or worse, I think in this case they did that even after Apple had made it very clear they weren’t going to be implementing it |
| 04:49 | <MikeSmith> | *should not speculatively lock themselves into building production services on top immature spec features |
| 04:52 | <Domenic> | Yes... if these were cross-browser sites (e.g. using the polyfill), they could just work with no effort. |
| 04:53 | <Domenic> | You create a Chrome-only site, you should expect some potential pain. |
| 06:07 | <SimonSapin> | Domenic: for terminology I agree but don’t really want to get into that arguement. For the library idk, the URL Standard makes it pretty much a non-goal to support anything that’s not in a browser |
| 07:54 | <annevk> | Domenic: also happy to start using booleans, maybe that's better |
| 07:54 | <annevk> | Domenic: we usually just migrate |
| 07:56 | <annevk> | SimonSapin: browsers are HTTP clients though (and some have servers) |
| 07:58 | <SimonSapin> | annevk: my point was that the parsing algorithm in the URL standard only helps with one case of |
| 07:58 | <SimonSapin> | request-target = origin-form |
| 07:58 | <SimonSapin> | / absolute-form |
| 07:58 | <SimonSapin> | / authority-form |
| 07:58 | <SimonSapin> | / asterisk-form |
| 07:58 | <SimonSapin> | (things that can go in an HTTP request) |
| 07:59 | <SimonSapin> | for example |
| 08:00 | <annevk> | SimonSapin: yeah I saw that at some point but it was never raised against whatwg/url to my knowledge |
| 08:00 | <annevk> | SimonSapin: we should probably look into how to handle that |
| 08:04 | <annevk> | SimonSapin: surprised Node.js hasn't reported that case yet, would hit them too I'd imagine |
| 08:43 | <TabAtkins> | Domenic: Do we have some examples of upgrading a function returning undefined into returning something useful? |
| 08:43 | <TabAtkins> | I know that was claimed as a safe upgrade path for cb-using functions, to turn them into promise-returning functions. |
| 08:43 | <TabAtkins> | Wondering if it actually happened in practice that you're aware of. |
| 09:17 | <Ms2ger> | annevk, happy birthday! |
| 09:18 | <gsnedders> | A wild Ms2ger appears! |
| 09:18 | <gsnedders> | (also, +1) |
| 09:19 | <Ms2ger> | \o |
| 09:19 | <Ms2ger> | How's Paris? |
| 09:20 | <gsnedders> | Overcast and warm. How's Belgium? |
| 09:21 | <Ms2ger> | Overcastish and warmish :) |
| 09:23 | <gsnedders> | Is that -ish hiding where you live? ;P |
| 09:25 | <Ms2ger> | Surely knowing that it's not entirely overcast here gives about as much information as knowing that it is? |
| 09:25 | <gsnedders> | :) |
| 10:21 | jgraham | concludes that Ms2ger actually lives in Paris, but is more temperature sensitive than gsnedders |
| 10:28 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: tbf, you did see how tanned I was last week |
| 10:58 | <Ms2ger> | gsnedders tanned? I'm skeptical |
| 11:02 | <JakeA> | annevk: https://fetch.spec.whatwg.org/#http-fetch 3.3.1 – transmitting the body after getting the response… isn't that the wrong way around? |
| 11:47 | <MikeSmith> | oh yay Ms2ger |
| 11:47 | MikeSmith | also tries to imagine a tanned gsnedders .. and fails |
| 11:48 | <gsnedders> | Ms2ger, MikeSmith: I'm still just about the most person in the CSS WG F2F :) |
| 11:49 | <gsnedders> | I'm just less of a total ghost than normal :) |
| 11:49 | <gsnedders> | (Also: got tanned with SPF 50 suncream on, obviously) |
| 11:49 | <MikeSmith> | the “most person” in the CSS WG |
| 11:49 | <MikeSmith> | now that I believee |
| 11:50 | <gsnedders> | s/most person/most white person/ |
| 11:50 | <gsnedders> | MikeSmith: I AM VERY PERSON |
| 11:57 | <MikeSmith> | true |
| 11:57 | <MikeSmith> | anyway I do like that song those guys wrote about you some years back |
| 11:58 | <MikeSmith> | Whiter Shade of Pale |
| 11:58 | <MikeSmith> | I think was the name |
| 11:58 | <gsnedders> | hahaha |
| 11:59 | <MikeSmith> | Alabaster |
| 11:59 | <MikeSmith> | I’ll stop teasing you there |
| 11:59 | <MikeSmith> | and return to being very glad to see Ms2ger |
| 12:02 | <Ms2ger> | You're very sweet |
| 12:07 | <MikeSmith> | : ) |
| 12:08 | <Ms2ger> | How is the kid? |
| 12:09 | <MikeSmith> | Ms2ger: which one? :) I just had a new one born on Friday |
| 12:09 | <MikeSmith> | little girl |
| 12:09 | <MikeSmith> | name Mui |
| 12:09 | <Ms2ger> | Well, you're not holding back :) |
| 12:09 | <MikeSmith> | haha |
| 12:10 | <MikeSmith> | gotta keep the world alive |
| 12:10 | <MikeSmith> | my boy Zen will be 2 soon |
| 12:10 | <MikeSmith> | and then there’s my daughter Satori who is 19 years old now |
| 12:10 | <MikeSmith> | gotta spread out the bets |
| 12:10 | <MikeSmith> | anyway there are all doing great |
| 12:11 | <MikeSmith> | hope you are doing great too |
| 12:11 | <MikeSmith> | or somewhere near great |
| 12:11 | <Ms2ger> | Great enough :) |
| 12:11 | <MikeSmith> | good to hear |
| 12:12 | <MikeSmith> | well we have been carefully saving up all the work you would have been doing in the mean time |
| 12:12 | Ms2ger | would have guessed Zen was a year, max |
| 12:12 | <Ms2ger> | Time flies |
| 12:12 | <MikeSmith> | yeah he grows fast that one |
| 12:12 | <MikeSmith> | he eats everything |
| 12:12 | <MikeSmith> | and he needs extra oxygen more than this planet provides by default |
| 12:13 | <MikeSmith> | but he has adjusted to that |
| 12:13 | <gsnedders> | Satori is that young? For some reason I thought she was close to my age. |
| 12:13 | <MikeSmith> | well |
| 12:13 | <MikeSmith> | you are close to 19 |
| 12:13 | <gsnedders> | :) |
| 12:13 | <MikeSmith> | you pretty much will always be close to 19 |
| 12:13 | <Ms2ger> | Can you drink in the US yet? |
| 12:13 | <gsnedders> | closer in age to Ms2ger, I'm pretty sure |
| 12:14 | <Ms2ger> | I'm close to 19, or so I'd like to think |
| 12:14 | <MikeSmith> | I think it depends on which state, the drinking |
| 12:14 | <gsnedders> | well, assuming Ms2ger does actually have an age ;P |
| 12:14 | <nox> | gsnedders: It's a complex number. |
| 12:14 | <Ms2ger> | What's seven years in a lifetime anyway |
| 12:14 | <gsnedders> | Ms2ger: wait are we actually the same age? |
| 12:15 | <nox> | gsnedders: We are all the same age if you wrap the universe enough. |
| 12:15 | <Ms2ger> | Hi nox, how are the cats? |
| 12:15 | <nox> | Ms2ger: Always good, happy to see you around again. |
| 12:15 | <Ms2ger> | gsnedders, well I dunno, how old are you? |
| 12:17 | <gsnedders> | Ms2ger: 25; born April '92 |
| 12:17 | <jgraham> | gsnedders is 14. Ms2ger can have his age reset arbitarily by his sysadmin |
| 12:18 | <Ms2ger> | Then we were until last week :) |
| 12:18 | gsnedders | wonders how old he was when he first met jgraham |
| 12:18 | <gsnedders> | …16? |
| 12:18 | <Ms2ger> | jgraham, I don't like the implication I'm not my own sysadmin |
| 12:18 | <gsnedders> | Ms2ger: so you are around a year older? |
| 12:19 | <Ms2ger> | -ish :) |
| 12:20 | <Ms2ger> | gsnedders, I suppose we should just figure out how old jgraham was when you met him... About 45? |
| 12:24 | <jgraham> | It's a little known fact that jgraham is an anagram of Benjamin Button |
| 12:25 | <gsnedders> | Ms2ger: so harsh |
| 13:10 | <annevk> | Thanks Ms2ger, wb |
| 13:12 | <annevk> | JakeA: while technically possible in that order, that does seem a little wrong; I suspect the layering between Fetch and Service Workers is wrong somehow |
| 13:13 | <JakeA> | annevk: yeah, it feels like the service worker is responsible for transmitting the request at that point, since it may never need transmitted |
| 13:13 | <JakeA> | I'll file an issue |
| 13:16 | <JakeA> | https://github.com/whatwg/fetch/issues/572 |
| 13:16 | <annevk> | JakeA: well, it needs to be transmitted to the service worker from the main thread |
| 13:16 | <annevk> | JakeA: although maybe if the service worker never reads it... hmm |
| 13:17 | <JakeA> | annevk: maybe a stream needs to be constructed that the sw can pull from |
| 13:17 | <annevk> | JakeA: I guess upload streams have a lot more bugs than I thought |
| 13:17 | <annevk> | JakeA: btw, it's a holiday here so I'll get back to GitHub tomorrow |
| 13:18 | <JakeA> | annevk: you definitely shouldn't be on IRC. Go enjoy the day! |
| 13:19 | <annevk> | JakeA: heh, taking a break between putting together stuff from Ikea |
| 13:21 | <jgraham> | Pretty sure that's the opposite of "enjoy the day" |
| 13:22 | <annevk> | uhuh |
| 13:23 | <annevk> | I'll finish with some TV and a cocktail, it'll be okay |
| 13:24 | <JakeA> | annevk: I've been watching Legion, which I very much recommend |
| 13:25 | <Ms2ger> | Is it weird that I don't mind putting together IKEA stuff? |
| 13:25 | <jgraham> | I think it's the whole experiencec |
| 13:26 | <jgraham> | Liek having to buy stuff from Ikea in the first place |
| 13:26 | <Ms2ger> | Okay, actually being inside a store is pretty terrible |
| 13:27 | <JakeA> | Agreed |
| 13:27 | <JakeA> | Although putting the stuff together is often like Lego and makes me feel like I'm good at something manual |
| 13:29 | <gsnedders> | Ms2ger: my gf is scary good at putting together IKEA stuff |
| 13:33 | <Ms2ger> | Will keep that in mind for the next time I get back from IKEA :) |
| 13:45 | <gsnedders> | tobie: you can own WebIDL tests, right? |
| 13:46 | <gsnedders> | oh, you do |
| 13:46 | <gsnedders> | my list is out of date :) |
| 13:51 | <gsnedders> | https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/issues/5915 has a list of every unowned spec in wpt. Plz add yourself as an owner if you care about any of them. |
| 14:00 | <Ms2ger> | I think annevk gets http/ |
| 14:58 | <wanderview> | annevk: happy birthday! |
| 15:02 | <jgraham> | annevk is spending his birthday assembling Ikea furniture? And people still believe in God? |
| 15:19 | <Ms2ger> | He doesn't |
| 15:19 | <Ms2ger> | (I think?) |
| 15:24 | <wanderview> | JakeA: oh, I didn't see you made a new doodle... I'm an idiot |
| 15:25 | wanderview | tries to delete email... |
| 15:25 | <JakeA> | wanderview: To be fair, I'm the idiot who fucked up the first doodle |
| 15:30 | <wanderview> | JakeA: well, I guess my confused email convinced some pacific folks to sign up! |
| 15:30 | <wanderview> | JakeA: and really, who hasn't been screwed over by timezones... |
| 15:56 | <Mek> | unfortunately I won't be able to make it for any of the dates in the new doodle |
| 15:56 | <JakeA> | wanderview: Indeed, the meeting ends at 23:59 because Doodle couldn't handle the day change |
| 15:56 | <Mek> | but then I don't believe my presence is vital anyway |
| 15:58 | <JakeA> | Mek: We can have a catchup or something afterwards |