| 01:21 | <zewt> | guh @ urllib.urlencode vomitting when passed unicode |
| 02:08 | <MikeSmith> | cabanier: even with the canvas.focusring.enabled pref set in FF, we still have tests that fail http://w3c.github.io/test-results/2dcontext/complete-fails.html |
| 02:09 | <MikeSmith> | oh hmm |
| 02:09 | <MikeSmith> | maybe not http://www.w3c-test.org/2dcontext/drawing-paths-to-the-canvas/drawFocusIfNeeded_001.html |
| 02:46 | <MikeSmith> | cabanier: regenerated http://w3c.github.io/test-results/2dcontext/less-than-2.html |
| 02:46 | <MikeSmith> | and http://w3c.github.io/test-results/2dcontext/complete-fails.html now shows zero |
| 02:58 | <cabanier> | MikeSmith: thanks! I'll see if I can fix some of the FF issues |
| 05:04 | <MikeSmith> | gsnedders: that "All the Dashes in Web Typography" thing is missing ー |
| 05:05 | <MikeSmith> | U+30FC |
| 10:00 | <annevk> | Hixie: http://html5.org/r/8580 seems to be there? |
| 10:01 | <annevk> | Hixie: note that I only track changes to /webapps/source |
| 11:00 | <annevk> | JakeA / jungkees: do we have diagrams somewhere of the various fetch flows? |
| 11:01 | <annevk> | JakeA / jungkees: in particular I wonder what the best way is to define the event.default() semantic |
| 11:02 | <annevk> | <img> -> invokes fetch -> invokes SW -> invokes default -> invokes fetch recursively but with "use SW flag" unset or some such? |
| 11:03 | jgraham | gets annevk a copy of dot |
| 11:10 | <JakeA> | annevk: Do you specifically want diagrams or would rough algorithms fo? |
| 11:10 | <JakeA> | do* |
| 11:16 | <annevk> | JakeA: rough works I suppose |
| 11:16 | <annevk> | JakeA: I had this idea of making the request concept much simpler, but then I realized that is probably not possible because we have this recursion thing going on, so at least some of the data needs to stay preserved |
| 11:22 | <hsivonen> | annevk: do we have any single-byte encoding (other than x-user-defined) that defines mappings for the entire upper half? |
| 11:23 | <annevk> | hsivonen: we need "unicodelatin1" or some such that will have that |
| 11:23 | <hsivonen> | non-control mappings that is |
| 11:23 | <annevk> | hsivonen: for networking |
| 11:23 | <hsivonen> | annevk: that won't help me now |
| 11:23 | <hsivonen> | annevk: I'm thinking of an encoding I could use with gedit today |
| 11:24 | <hsivonen> | the best I have so far is windows-1251, which has one undefined code point |
| 11:24 | <hsivonen> | so I have to be really unlucky not to be able to roundtrip stuff with that one |
| 11:24 | <JakeA> | annevk: I'll write an algo for event.default() later this week (I'm booked up today/tomorrow) |
| 11:24 | <hsivonen> | use case: editing patches that as a whole are both invalid UTF-8 and invalid windows-1252 |
| 11:25 | <annevk> | JakeA: I'll do something as well |
| 11:25 | <annevk> | hsivonen: http://encoding.spec.whatwg.org/index-x-mac-cyrillic.txt looks complete |
| 11:26 | <hsivonen> | annevk: cool thanks |
| 11:26 | <hsivonen> | MacRoman, too, actually |
| 11:26 | <hsivonen> | wow |
| 11:27 | <hsivonen> | it's been so long since I've used MacRoman for something useful that I've forgotten that Mac encodings use all the available space |
| 11:27 | <annevk> | macintosh does have a PUA mapping |
| 11:27 | <hsivonen> | aargh. gedit doesn't support Mac encodings |
| 11:28 | <hsivonen> | it has stuff like UTF-32 and TCVN, but no Mac encodings at all |
| 11:29 | <hsivonen> | maybe I should use VISCII for this use case |
| 11:33 | <SimonSapin> | hsivonen: what’s the use case? |
| 11:34 | <zcorpan> | SimonSapin: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20140429#l-299 |
| 11:55 | <zcorpan> | jgraham: how do i take the tests here https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/quirks-mode/ and move them to web-platform-tests retaining history? |
| 11:57 | <zcorpan> | it seems the w3c haven't forked the quirks mode spec yet |
| 11:58 | MikeSmith | adds that to his TODO list |
| 11:59 | <jgraham> | zcorpan: Probably git-hg clone to create a git repo and then git subtree add to add it to wpt |
| 11:59 | <jgraham> | Going to experiment with the London transport network now, back online in a bit |
| 11:59 | <zcorpan> | jgraham: ok thx |
| 12:00 | <zcorpan> | MikeSmith: incentive pays for the number of forked specs eh? |
| 12:01 | <zcorpan> | that's why there were 27 canvas specs |
| 12:01 | zcorpan | figured it out |
| 12:01 | <MikeSmith> | perceptive |
| 12:01 | <MikeSmith> | how to migrate a mercurial repo to subdirectory of an existing git repo and retain the history) |
| 12:02 | <MikeSmith> | oofs |
| 12:02 | <MikeSmith> | zcorpan: I meant to say, what jgraham said |
| 12:02 | <MikeSmith> | about migrating that repo |
| 12:03 | <MikeSmith> | that's what I did to add the conformance-checkers/ stuff |
| 12:05 | <zcorpan> | MikeSmith: ok great |
| 12:08 | <zcorpan> | pointer to git-hg ? |
| 12:16 | <MikeSmith> | http://hg-git.github.io/ |
| 12:17 | <annevk> | Oh my, I was just wondering whether my seatbelt was fastened while sitting in the office |
| 12:19 | <Ms2ger> | Prepare for liftoff... |
| 12:26 | <zcorpan> | MikeSmith: thanks. i got an error when trying to install it :-( |
| 12:26 | <zcorpan> | Running dulwich-0.9.6/setup.py -q bdist_egg --dist-dir /tmp/easy_install-BsoHD7/dulwich-0.9.6/egg-dist-tmp-wHtFoJ |
| 12:26 | <zcorpan> | clang: error: unknown argument: '-mno-fused-madd' [-Wunused-command-line-argument-hard-error-in-future] |
| 12:26 | <zcorpan> | clang: note: this will be a hard error (cannot be downgraded to a warning) in the future |
| 12:26 | <zcorpan> | error: Setup script exited with error: command 'cc' failed with exit status 1 |
| 12:27 | zcorpan | gotta go |
| 12:35 | <annevk> | http://www.w3.org/TR/2014/WD-tracking-dnt-20140424/#exceptions-javascript-api wtf |
| 12:41 | <Ms2ger> | "Push Server protocol: Mozilla and Google to kick-off a new draft at the IETF to standardize it." |
| 12:41 | <Ms2ger> | Because that went so well the last time? |
| 12:42 | <annevk> | Ms2ger: I don't understand that either |
| 12:43 | <annevk> | Ms2ger: both companies hired too much IETF apologists I suspect |
| 12:43 | <Ms2ger> | That may be the case |
| 12:47 | <Ms2ger> | Heh |
| 12:48 | <Ms2ger> | Apparently w3.org thinks I'm in a "Test Framework Developers group" with URL http://w3c-test.org/framework/ |
| 12:48 | <Ms2ger> | MikeSmith, you can throw me out of that :) |
| 12:49 | <MikeSmith> | Ms2ger: oh man I should just remove that whole group |
| 12:50 | <Ms2ger> | Also, Testsuite Maintainers group |
| 12:51 | <annevk> | DNT :-( |
| 12:52 | <annevk> | Why the fuck does the W3C still allow groups to just go and invent some weird APIs without oversight? http://www.w3.org/2011/tracking-protection/drafts/tracking-dnt.html |
| 12:52 | <annevk> | Isn't this what "The Team" is supposed to be good at. Helping out? |
| 12:53 | <annevk> | Sorry MikeSmith, bit frustrated |
| 12:53 | <MikeSmith> | preaching to the choir |
| 12:54 | <MikeSmith> | well I guess I shouldn't say that |
| 13:06 | <MikeSmith> | and I didn't even know the DNT spec introduced any APIs. but I can't blame anybody except myself for that, since all it requires is me to actually read the spec |
| 13:06 | <beverloo> | annevk, tricking me into giving feedback for DNT...?! ;-) |
| 13:06 | <MikeSmith> | good god almighty StoreSiteSpecificExceptionPropertyBag |
| 13:08 | <MikeSmith> | annevk: fwiw I also never got any heads up about that stuff from the team contacts for the group |
| 13:08 | <MikeSmith> | not that I remember |
| 13:08 | <annevk> | beverloo: it could use it :-) |
| 13:09 | <annevk> | There ought to be a meme for "Don't know what the fuck I'm doing. Let's ask for feedback during Last Call" |
| 13:09 | <Ms2ger> | Does the CSSWG have a logo we could use? |
| 13:09 | <MikeSmith> | anyway I'm pretty sure I would remember something mentionining "hey btw we're adding StoreSiteSpecificExceptionPropertyBagW |
| 13:09 | <MikeSmith> | *somebody mentioning to m |
| 13:09 | <MikeSmith> | *me |
| 13:10 | Ms2ger | wonders if MikeSmith got distracted from those silly groups |
| 13:11 | <MikeSmith> | my single interest in the tracking group is pretty much just reading Roy's messages to the WG list, and the responses to him, for the entertainment value |
| 13:12 | <MikeSmith> | anyway I blame the TAG |
| 13:12 | <Ms2ger> | Ooooh, more Hixie on www-archive |
| 13:12 | <annevk> | Ms2ger: http://www.w3.org/Style/Woolly/woolly-icon.svg |
| 13:13 | <Ms2ger> | Good old Woolly |
| 13:57 | <SimonSapin> | Ms2ger: shepazu talked about making a new one |
| 13:59 | <annevk> | SimonSapin: you suggested inlining "redirect count" and such at one point, right? |
| 13:59 | <SimonSapin> | annevk: context? |
| 13:59 | <annevk> | SimonSapin: I just looked into doing that, and it seems to require quite a bit more text than the current solution |
| 13:59 | <annevk> | SimonSapin: http://fetch.spec.whatwg.org/ |
| 13:59 | <SimonSapin> | annevk: that was probably someone else |
| 14:02 | <gsnedders> | Someone should write a wiki page or something with the varying problems of various standards groups |
| 14:05 | <annevk> | There's http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/IETF |
| 14:05 | <MikeSmith> | Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental^W Standard-Group Disorders |
| 14:12 | <Domenic_> | Hixie: what's an FSA draft? |
| 14:12 | <annevk> | Domenic_: http://www.w3.org/community/about/agreements/final/ |
| 14:13 | <Domenic_> | Ah, so Hixie is saying that WHATCG snapshots should be published more often? |
| 14:13 | <annevk> | We haven't really done it yet |
| 14:14 | <annevk> | See http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2014Apr/0039.html for reasons |
| 14:14 | <Domenic_> | That seems like a weak position to argue from :-/ |
| 14:15 | <annevk> | W3C has no REC of plagiarized material, we have no FSA of original work |
| 14:16 | <annevk> | Agreed that it's not ideal, I'm mostly trying to find a way to simplify the fetch algorithm |
| 14:16 | <Domenic_> | haha |
| 15:02 | <Domenic_> | Hmm is Firefox actually shipping any promise-based APIs yet? Or did they just ship Promises to be awesome? |
| 15:26 | <Hixie> | annevk: weird, it works now |
| 15:27 | <annevk> | Hixie: maybe DreamHost tried turning it off and on again |
| 15:28 | <Hixie> | heh |
| 15:29 | <Hixie> | i was getting the same as now just with some missing lines on the tracker index |
| 15:29 | <annevk> | oh |
| 15:30 | <SamB> | so is the "leave your sense of logic at the door" referring to the expectation that things will be logical? (Otherwise it seems like a really lousy suggestion.) |
| 15:31 | <Hixie> | basically |
| 15:31 | <jgraham> | SamB: Yes |
| 15:31 | <Domenic_> | Why do Asian websites use <marquee> so much? I've heard this fact but never understood why. |
| 15:31 | <jgraham> | People often come here and say things like "the platform would make more sense if X" where X is some thing that we can't do for compat reasons |
| 15:32 | <jgraham> | And when I say "people" I mean "everyone up to and including Hixie" |
| 15:32 | <jgraham> | So it is helpful to be able to say "see /topic" |
| 15:32 | <jgraham> | Particularly when it's Hixie or someone else that should know better ;) |
| 15:33 | <Hixie> | jgraham++ :-) |
| 15:35 | <dglazkov> | good morning, Whatwg! |
| 15:36 | <annevk> | Domenic_: I only have anecdotal data, but sites in Asia tend to be a lot more busy |
| 15:37 | <annevk> | Domenic_: people in that part of the world might enjoy that more, I've no idea |
| 15:37 | <SamB> | jgraham: yeah, that's what I figured |
| 15:38 | <SamB> | that it referred to the crazy stuff that must be done for compat |
| 15:38 | <SamB> | ... so what did Asia have to say about the death of <blink>? |
| 16:07 | <cwilso> | Domenic_: <marquee> was a way to get vertical text layout in IE, well before vertical text layout was supported. |
| 16:07 | <Domenic_> | cwilso: ah nice, that makes a lot of sense! |
| 16:08 | <cwilso> | A very twisted hacky kind of sense, but yes. :) |
| 16:09 | <cwilso> | (redacted braindump of "@fonts", vertical-text fonts that had each glyph rotated and the baseline on the side, because that's how vertical text used to be done.) |
| 16:10 | <annevk> | I'm somewhat surprised we still don't have vertical text if it's that important |
| 16:11 | <SimonSapin> | annevk: we’re working on it, but It’s Hard. |
| 16:11 | <SimonSapin> | feel free to send feedback on http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-writing-modes/ ;) |
| 16:13 | <Ms2ger> | Or implement it in Servo :) |
| 16:27 | <SimonSapin> | Ms2ger: I hear that part is up to me |
| 16:54 | <Hixie> | TabAtkins: is there a spec for 'display-box' yet that has browser adoption of any kind? |
| 16:57 | <annevk> | Hixie: http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-display/#the-display-box |
| 16:57 | <annevk> | Hixie: haven't seen intent to implement for it anywhere |
| 17:03 | <cwilso> | annevk: yeah, vertical text the right way - or at least, a different-and-much-less-wrong way - has been cycling around for quite a while. IE did vertical text ca IE5 or so, if memory serves, using CSS writing-mode (I think, it's been a loooong time.) |
| 17:03 | <cwilso> | not necessarily any relation to current work SimonSapin mentioned. :) |
| 17:04 | <SimonSapin> | We’re working on display-box: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=907396 |
| 17:25 | <TabAtkins> | Hixie: Spec is what Anne pointed out. No implementations yet, though Blink is leaning toward one. |
| 17:26 | <Hixie> | k thanks |
| 17:26 | <MikeSmith> | Domenic_: a lot of Japanese mobile sites used marquee effect back in the WAP days. not using <marquee> but instead by some WAPish thing which name I forget. I wonder if if maybe they liked the effect so much that it ended up getting back-migrated to desktop sites. |
| 17:39 | <Hixie> | bholley: any update on https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20701 ? |
| 17:40 | <bholley> | Hixie: new Window bindings got delayed slightly - they might even be done this week. I was on jury duty yesterday, so I missed the status meeting |
| 17:40 | <Hixie> | k |
| 17:40 | <bholley> | Hixie: but yeah, just give it another couple of weeks |
| 17:40 | <Hixie> | awesome |
| 17:41 | <bholley> | Hixie: as soon as that stuff lands I'll land the new XO behavior |
| 17:47 | <Ms2ger> | bholley, I don't think there was one |
| 17:47 | <bholley> | Ms2ger: do you know the status of the Window bindings? |
| 17:47 | <Ms2ger> | Nope |
| 17:48 | <Ms2ger> | I asked jst to relay it to me if he figured out |
| 17:52 | <Ms2ger> | Oh, the buttons in the HTML spec don't look so awful now |
| 17:54 | <Hixie> | really? i think they're still pretty terrible |
| 17:54 | <Hixie> | i just don't know what to do that'd be better |
| 17:56 | <Ms2ger> | They looked more awful before :) |
| 17:56 | <Hixie> | looks particularly bad at the top of the PDF version for some reason |
| 18:19 | <cabanier> | MikeSmith: ping |
| 18:35 | <cabanier> | MikeSmith: http://www.w3c-test.org/2dcontext/fill-and-stroke-styles/2d.pattern.image.broken.html is supposed to throw an exception but the test is currently looking for a null return value |
| 18:36 | <cabanier> | MikeSmith: chrome throws an exception in my local testing but not for the test in your depot |
| 18:36 | <IZh> | IZh: Hi. What you think about swapping page title and page navigation of developer's version pages? |
| 18:39 | <IZh> | It is strange to me to scroll to the top of the page and do not see its title. |
| 18:40 | <IZh> | Currently the title is below the navigation. |
| 18:40 | <SamB> | that sounds like a good idea to me |
| 18:40 | <SamB> | Hixie: ^ |
| 18:40 | <IZh> | http://developers.whatwg.org/text-level-semantics.html |
| 18:40 | <Hixie> | benschwarz: ^ |
| 18:41 | <SamB> | oh, that version |
| 18:41 | <SamB> | sorry |
| 18:41 | SamB | forgot what "developers" meant |
| 18:42 | <SamB> | (confused it with "implementors" or something) |
| 18:43 | <IZh> | Also there are no links to Back and Top. Only Next. |
| 18:43 | <IZh> | I mean Back and Up. |
| 19:02 | <Hixie> | hsivonen: any news on the encoding stuff? |
| 19:06 | SamB | still thinks those link rels should be in the spec, even if they aren't currently used by much except old-school HTML generation tools -- they are GOOD rels which are probably never going to go away |
| 19:07 | <Hixie> | "never going to go away" implies that they're not already gone |
| 19:07 | <Hixie> | in fact it implies that at some point they arrived |
| 19:07 | <Hixie> | and it's not clear to me that they ever did in any meaningful sense |
| 19:08 | <SamB> | well, okay, so yeah, there is that |
| 19:10 | SamB | supposes if he really wants to help he should implement a toolbar that actually *works* that uses them ... |
| 19:11 | <SamB> | ... hmm, how come PDFs get all the fancy outline sidebars anyway ... |
| 19:28 | <jcgregorio> | https://github.com/google/canvas-5-polyfill |
| 19:28 | <jcgregorio> | I just launched that, feedback welcome :-) |
| 20:02 | <cabanier> | MikeSmith: http://www.w3c-test.org/2dcontext/fill-and-stroke-styles/2d.pattern.repeat.null.html is also testing an incorrect assumption. passing null to createPattern should not throw |
| 20:03 | <cabanier> | MikeSmith: the drawFocus tests will work on chrome canary with the pref turned on |
| 20:03 | <Ms2ger> | Oh really? |
| 20:05 | <Ms2ger> | Interesting |
| 20:05 | <Ms2ger> | PR? |
| 20:44 | <cabanier> | Ms2ger: were you talking to me? |
| 20:45 | <Ms2ger> | Yes |
| 20:45 | <cabanier> | :-) |
| 20:46 | <cabanier> | Ms2ger: are you saying createPattern should throw? |
| 20:46 | <Ms2ger> | Not anymore, no |
| 20:46 | <cabanier> | good |
| 20:46 | <Ms2ger> | So, want to fix the test? :) |
| 20:47 | <Ms2ger> | And add one for "null" as opposed to null; that should still throw |
| 20:47 | <cabanier> | yes. How do I do that? |
| 20:47 | <Ms2ger> | web-platform-tests in general or canvas tests in particular? |
| 20:47 | <cabanier> | the canvas tests |
| 20:47 | <cabanier> | brb |
| 20:48 | <Ms2ger> | Edit 2dcontext/tools/tests2d.yaml |
| 20:49 | <Ms2ger> | The format is pretty straightforward |
| 20:49 | <Ms2ger> | And then run 2dcontext/tools/gentest.py |
| 21:37 | <IZh> | It seems it is impossible to specify dates B.C. because of year must be positive. |
| 21:38 | <IZh> | I don't need it, but in some historic documents it is possible. |
| 21:48 | <gsnedders> | IZh: IIRC there was no use-case for being able to explicitly mark them up, given we rarely know dates |
| 21:56 | <Hixie> | yeah, if you go back more than a few 100 years, it gets realllllly complicated |
| 21:56 | <Hixie> | because e.g. our calendar didn't exist back then |
| 21:56 | <gsnedders> | Calendar is the least of the worries, really. |
| 21:58 | <TabAtkins> | Yeah, just be glad we ended up allowing Proleptic Gregorian. |
| 22:03 | <IZh> | Okay. :-) |
| 22:07 | <IZh> | What about colors? There are more and more monitors capable to display 30-bit colors. |
| 22:07 | <Hixie> | yeah |
| 22:07 | <Domenic_> | Wasn't there some smooth animating verison of scrollIntoView() being specced somewhere? |
| 22:07 | <Hixie> | color is hard |
| 22:07 | <Hixie> | too many places in the platform assume 32 bit colour |
| 22:07 | <Hixie> | (including alpha) |
| 22:07 | <TabAtkins> | IZh: Colors can be whatever depth you want. You're not limited to the hex notation. |
| 22:08 | <IZh> | There is often lack of support by modern OSes, but I believe it will be more wide supported soon. |
| 22:08 | <TabAtkins> | Whether the browser actually uses anything bigger than 32-bit is up to it. |
| 22:08 | <Hixie> | you are in a lot of places |
| 22:08 | <Hixie> | e.g. rgb(1,1,1) and #XXX are both limited to 32 bit |
| 22:08 | <TabAtkins> | Domenic_: It's in CSSOM-View, I believe. |
| 22:08 | <TabAtkins> | Hixie: *Some* syntaxes are. |
| 22:08 | <TabAtkins> | Other syntaxes aren't. |
| 22:08 | <Hixie> | and it underlies a lot of the assumptions |
| 22:09 | <TabAtkins> | ...like? |
| 22:09 | <IZh> | What syntax is suitable for 30-bit colors (10 bit per channel)? |
| 22:09 | <Domenic_> | TabAtkins: that was it, thanks. Nice spec. I assume no implementers? :P |
| 22:09 | <Hixie> | like, <input type=color> is a 32 bit color |
| 22:10 | <Hixie> | (well, 24 bit) |
| 22:10 | <TabAtkins> | IZh: Use rgb() with percentages, or use hsl(). |
| 22:10 | <TabAtkins> | Hixie: Yeah, it exposes the color as a hex string, so 8bits per. |
| 22:11 | <Hixie> | and canvas exposes colours using rgba(n,n,n,m) 0<=n<=255 |
| 22:11 | <Hixie> | i forget what cssom does |
| 22:11 | <TabAtkins> | So HTML makes a bunch of assumptions and only exposes colors as 8bit per. CSS doesn't. |
| 22:12 | <Hixie> | oh nobody mentioned CSS. CSS might allow it, sure. |
| 22:13 | <Hixie> | CSSOM serialises to 32bit also, it looks like |
| 22:13 | <zewt> | doubt we'll see greater than 8bpc color in (consumer) displays any time soon |
| 22:14 | <Hixie> | so same problem there |
| 22:14 | <zewt> | could be sort of interesting to do temporal dithering on a 24bpp display to get higher resolution color, heh |
| 22:14 | <IZh> | I think the best way is a percentages with enough precision to select particular value up to 16-bit per channel -- the highest depth possible in some image formats |
| 22:15 | <TabAtkins> | Hixie: Where? |
| 22:15 | <IZh> | zewt: I have 30-bit capable display. ;-) |
| 22:15 | <zewt> | (which is what my plasma TV seems to do) |
| 22:15 | <Hixie> | TabAtkins: http://dev.w3.org/csswg/cssom/#serializing-css-values |
| 22:15 | <zewt> | "consumer", they're beyond rare heh |
| 22:16 | <TabAtkins> | rgb() no longer requires only integers in the N,N,N format. |
| 22:16 | <IZh> | zewt: not so rare as you think. :-) You can search for 30-bit colors |
| 22:17 | <TabAtkins> | (Got that fixed in Colors 4. Recent, so impls probably haven't caught up yet.) |
| 22:17 | <zewt> | they're precisely as rare as i think :) |
| 22:17 | <IZh> | zewt: the problem now is that only few apps like Photoshop can use it :-) |
| 22:17 | <Hixie> | TabAtkins: ah. i hope that doesn't break any scripts relying on the serialisation to be rounded off to integers. |
| 22:19 | <TabAtkins> | Me too! |
| 22:19 | <zewt> | even photoshop is bad at it and turns lots of stuff off |
| 22:19 | <TabAtkins> | Because I'm mainly trying to fix *my* scripts that do naive math and forgte to floor things to integers. |
| 22:19 | <TabAtkins> | Canvas is extra-bad, since accidentally setting thing to "rgb(127.5, 127.5, 127.5)" gives you pure black. |
| 22:20 | <TabAtkins> | Very annoying to debug unless you learn to recognize it. |
| 22:20 | <IZh> | zewt: what you mean? I read that all is ok. But I have no time yet to play with it by myself. |
| 22:22 | <zewt> | i wonder if it would be useful to allow serializing colors to [0,255] floats to truncate the decimal place early, so (1/65535) can be output as something like 0.004 instead of 0.003921568627 |
| 22:22 | <zewt> | allow truncating to any value that gives the same result when converted to a 16-bit int, or something like that |
| 22:23 | <TabAtkins> | It's annoying that the divisor isn't 256, as that makes for nice pretty decimals. |
| 22:23 | <TabAtkins> | 10-bit color just has .25, .5, .75 in that case. |
| 22:24 | <zewt> | 1/256 is 0.00390625, which is beyond my ability to recognize as 1/power of two, heh |
| 22:24 | <TabAtkins> | The values are already scaled to 1/256, so that's just "1". |
| 22:25 | <TabAtkins> | The issue is that the divisor right now isn't 1/256, but 1/255, which has worse decimal serialization. |
| 22:25 | <zewt> | no, 1/256 (0.00390625) is the value you'd get for 1/65536 after converting it to [1,256] |
| 22:25 | <TabAtkins> | Oh, that's 16-bit channels. |
| 22:25 | <TabAtkins> | Sure. |
| 22:25 | <TabAtkins> | ([0,256]) |
| 22:26 | <zewt> | i'll pass on a 257-color mode :P |
| 22:26 | <TabAtkins> | Aw, come on. |
| 22:26 | <zewt> | IZh: many filters only work in 8-bit, and tons don't work in 32-bit |
| 22:26 | <zewt> | (they're probably gradually fixing them) |
| 22:26 | <zewt> | but the main point of 16-bit editing in photoshop is editing, not display |
| 22:27 | <zewt> | (which I've used many times; helps prevent artifacts cropping in when you're doing a lot of filtering) |
| 22:28 | <IZh> | zewt: 1. You can see raw image from your camera with more wider dynamic range. |
| 22:28 | <zewt> | 16-bit color doesn't give you more dynamic range, it gives you higher resolution in the same range |
| 22:29 | <IZh> | Agree. |
| 22:29 | <zewt> | do i have to |
| 22:29 | <IZh> | Finer gradients |
| 22:29 | <zewt> | one of photoshop's dumb things is that it doesn't (as far as I know) support dithering gradients |
| 22:30 | <IZh> | With 30-bit mode you don't need it. ;-) |
| 22:30 | <zewt> | not sure what you're trying to argue :P |
| 22:31 | <IZh> | Although you have a 4k display :-) |
| 22:31 | <zewt> | (no I don't) |
| 22:31 | <IZh> | Me too. Alas. |
| 22:32 | <zewt> | afk |
| 22:33 | <astearns> | zewt: the gradient tool options has a dither checkbox (never used it, though) |
| 22:40 | <IZh> | What about hex noration, where bits are "left-aligned"? |
| 22:41 | <IZh> | I mean that ff, ff4, ff40 will give the same value ff when converted to 8-bit. |
| 22:42 | <IZh> | I mean, most significant bit first |
| 22:42 | <TabAtkins> | IZh: What are you talking about? |
| 22:43 | <IZh> | Colors |
| 22:43 | <TabAtkins> | Yes. What are you talking about, with this discussion of left-aligned bits? |
| 22:43 | <IZh> | I propose new encoding :-) |
| 22:43 | <IZh> | Of colors |
| 22:44 | <TabAtkins> | Why? |
| 22:45 | <IZh> | To support different depth without very long floating point numbers. |
| 22:46 | <cabanier> | zewt: sure it does |
| 22:46 | <cabanier> | support dithering gradients |
| 22:47 | <IZh> | TabAtkins: Just an idea. |
| 22:48 | <cabanier> | IZh: is this just to reduce banding? nothing's stopping a browser from making that optimization |
| 22:48 | <cabanier> | IZh: colors don't have to be in high precision for that. Adobe apps have been doing that for 18 years |
| 22:50 | <IZh> | cabanier: I believe that sooner 30-bit displays will conquer the market |
| 22:50 | <cabanier> | ok |
| 22:50 | <IZh> | cabanier: So you will need to specify particular color. |
| 22:50 | <cabanier> | IZh: why? |
| 22:52 | <IZh> | cabanier: For image manipulation, for example |
| 22:53 | <cabanier> | IZh: with color managments, you will never get the actual color value on the display |
| 22:55 | <IZh> | cabanier: I think, this is orthogonal things |
| 22:55 | <cabanier> | IZh: 30 bit gives you more consistency over the color range so you don't lose precision |
| 22:57 | <IZh> | cabanier: It gives the ability to set, for example, rgb(1023, 1022, 1000) color |
| 22:57 | <zewt> | oh yeah, it's gradient layer styles that don't dither |
| 22:59 | <cabanier> | zewt: there's a dither button for gradient layer styles |
| 23:00 | <zewt> | ah, that's new |
| 23:01 | <zewt> | (i see it in CS6, i do a lot in CS4) |
| 23:01 | <cabanier> | Photoshop CS6 |
| 23:01 | <cabanier> | ah |
| 23:08 | <cabanier> | IZh: css color allows decimal points for color values. That should work for you, right? |
| 23:12 | <IZh> | cabanier: yes. The only thing is long syntax. 7/1024 = 0.0068359375 vs 013 |
| 23:17 | <IZh> | I mean 01C :-) |
| 23:21 | <zewt> | have browsers implemented high-color support in other systems (canvas, CSS colors, gradients and shadows, image rendering, ) ... well okay |
| 23:26 | <cabanier> | zewt: no :-) not even decent color support except maybe Safari |
| 23:26 | <zewt> | i presumed that, it was a leading question to "then lobby for that before asking for new features" :) |
