| 00:00 | <hasather> | oh, don't get me started on funny norwegian words |
| 00:00 | <Hixie> | that wasn't norwegian |
| 00:00 | <Hixie> | norwegian doesn't have umlauts. |
| 00:01 | <Dashiva> | I was making fun of a swedish phrase he used every day |
| 00:01 | <Hixie> | :-) |
| 00:01 | <hasather> | although with some weird norwegian-swedish-bastardaztion spelling |
| 00:01 | <Dashiva> | How do you spell it? |
| 00:02 | <hasather> | Ska vi käka? :) |
| 00:02 | <zcorpan_> | nu blev jag hungrig :| |
| 00:03 | <Dashiva> | Maybe we should use Japanese this summer, to avoid confusion |
| 00:03 | <hasather> | (btw, my spelling of "bastardization" wasn't really good up there either) |
| 00:09 | <Hixie> | hey, whatwg membership just hit a round 700 |
| 00:09 | <Lachy_> | I thought we already had over 700 |
| 00:10 | <Hixie> | it's been hovering around 69x for a while |
| 00:10 | <Lachy_> | ok |
| 00:12 | <Hixie> | oh crap, i know why there's so much <video> feedback on my pile |
| 00:12 | <Hixie> | i forgot to delete the mails from the first one i sent out! |
| 00:12 | <Hixie> | 123 mails, that's more like it |
| 00:18 | <zcorpan_> | heh |
| 00:43 | <hsivonen> | back in Finland |
| 00:43 | <hsivonen> | I've made it to the HTML WG while I was away :-) |
| 00:53 | tantek | (n=tantek⊙dsdsn) Quit () |
| 00:54 | <zcorpan_> | karlUshi: btw, is there anything that needs to be done with the html wg home page? i could perhaps help with that |
| 01:03 | <karlUshi> | zcorpan_: in which ways? For now, The page is mostly in the hands of Dan Connolly. |
| 01:05 | <Lachy_> | karlUshi: something could be done to improve the design. I've seen a couple of complaints about the green on white |
| 01:12 | <karlUshi> | :) The green Yes the light green is too light, I will fix that. |
| 01:13 | <Hixie> | what would be cool is if the htmlwg blog was open like the whatwg one |
| 01:13 | <karlUshi> | For design, Groups are really not the best place to do things :) |
| 01:13 | hober | (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober) Quit ("ERC Version 5.1.3 (IRC client for Emacs)") |
| 01:13 | <karlUshi> | Hixie: that is call the Web :) no? |
| 01:14 | <Hixie> | how do you mean? |
| 01:14 | <karlUshi> | anyone can publish something anywhere |
| 01:14 | <Hixie> | well yeah but that's not the same thing as letting them publish on the group's own blog |
| 01:14 | <karlUshi> | why? |
| 01:15 | <Hixie> | well because people aren't typically subscribed to a random joe's blog, but they probably are subscribed to the htmlwg's blog |
| 01:15 | <Hixie> | so you get more exposure |
| 01:15 | <Hixie> | it also allows people in the community to get up on a soapbox every now and then and tell the world about something |
| 01:15 | <karlUshi> | "ego wins"-- |
| 01:16 | <karlUshi> | It is not yet decided that it is a blog. |
| 01:16 | <Hixie> | e.g. about html5lib 0.9, or the character encoding issue, etc |
| 01:20 | karlUshi | just noticed that the green in the sidebar was a bug from me |
| 01:21 | <karlUshi> | green issue fixed |
| 01:24 | <karlUshi> | zcorpan_: any suggestions on design is welcome by private emails. Group discussions about design is sure to be a never ending story. |
| 01:24 | <zcorpan_> | ok |
| 01:25 | <Lachy_> | karlUshi: if the HTMLWG page does become a blog, then I agree that it should be a community blog. It's worked out reasonably well for us so far |
| 01:26 | <zcorpan_> | it was pointed out in here before that the page shrinks when text size in increased. that could be solved by instead of using ems for the page margins, use "auto" and possibly a max-width in ems |
| 01:26 | <Lachy_> | or at the very least, it should be open to all WG participants |
| 01:26 | <karlUshi> | Lachy: I would prefer an aggregation of content, a king of planet with a tag. That would be more logical |
| 01:27 | <Hixie> | hm |
| 01:27 | <karlUshi> | s/king/kind/ |
| 01:27 | <Hixie> | should video position be in seconds with a float, or in milliseconds with an integer? |
| 01:27 | <karlUshi> | and with a nofollow |
| 01:27 | <karlUshi> | for meta |
| 01:27 | <Lachy_> | karlUshi: no nofollow |
| 01:27 | <Hixie> | (flash does seconds/float) |
| 01:28 | <karlUshi> | "Ego wins"-- |
| 01:28 | <hasather> | Hixie: I vire for milliseconds, but don't ask me why |
| 01:28 | <hasather> | s/svire/vote/ |
| 01:28 | <zcorpan_> | +1 for milliseconds |
| 01:28 | <Hixie> | i prefer milliseconds too, purely to avoid floats |
| 01:28 | <Hixie> | but |
| 01:28 | <Hixie> | flash uses floats and seconds |
| 01:28 | <Hixie> | tough call |
| 01:29 | <zcorpan_> | does it matter? |
| 01:29 | <Hixie> | well we don't want to be different for no good reason |
| 01:29 | <tantek> | of course existing efforts are documented on the wiki right? ;) |
| 01:29 | <tantek> | so that you can use examples to argue for one or the other |
| 01:29 | <zcorpan_> | fair enough |
| 01:30 | <Lachy_> | hmm. not sure. If it were a int, then it would be restricted to 2"32 seconds. Is that sufficient for long videos? |
| 01:30 | <Lachy_> | 2^23 |
| 01:30 | <Lachy_> | aargh! |
| 01:30 | <Lachy_> | I mean 2^32 |
| 01:31 | <Dashiva> | 2^32 milliseconds = about 1200 hours, by my shoddy calculation |
| 01:31 | <Hixie> | tantek: unfortunately i don't have the time to write the e-mail responses to these 123 e-mails, and document the wiki, and write a high quality spec. i only have time for two of those three. |
| 01:31 | <Hixie> | it all ends up documented in the archives, though, since i reply to every e-mail |
| 01:32 | <Lachy_> | yeah, I got about 1,193 |
| 01:32 | <Lachy_> | so that should be fine |
| 01:32 | <Hixie> | Dashiva, Lachy: yeah there's no problem of one being too short or whatever |
| 01:32 | <zcorpan_> | also, you would probably never need finer precision than milliseconds |
| 01:33 | <Lachy_> | I prefer milliseconds then because floats are a pain |
| 01:33 | <Hixie> | yeah |
| 01:34 | <tantek> | Hixie, document the wiki, such that it contains sufficient content in response to the emails, send *one* email response to the list, bccing the 123 senders that says their input has been incorporated, and write a high quality spec. |
| 01:34 | <Dashiva> | I prefer integers, but I also prefer seconds. Having to divide by 1000 all the time is an annoyance |
| 01:35 | <tantek> | and instruct folks in the email to follow-up with specifics on the wiki |
| 01:35 | <Hixie> | tantek: in my experience when spec writers don't reply to each e-mail individually, they tend to start ignoring feedback. |
| 01:35 | <Hixie> | unintentionally, of course |
| 01:35 | <Hixie> | but they start saying things like "oh that's covered on the wiki" or "that's like that other e-mail" and they start missing subtle arguments. |
| 01:36 | <Hixie> | however, the whatwg wiki is open, so if you want to volunteer to take the e-mails and put them in the wiki, you are welcome to do so |
| 01:36 | <Hixie> | (the other problem is that wiki feedback doesn't function well with my way of working, which is based on a LIFO stack of e-mails) |
| 01:36 | <tantek> | Hixie, FYI: http://tantek.pbwiki.com/CommunicationProtocols re: wiki vs. email |
| 01:37 | <tantek> | i receive too much email to do LIFO and get to "what matters" |
| 01:37 | <Hixie> | well, replying to e-mail is basically my fulltime job |
| 01:37 | <Hixie> | so i can keep up |
| 01:39 | <tantek> | that doesn't sound like a very satisfying job :( |
| 01:39 | <Hixie> | to each his own :-) |
| 01:39 | <karlUshi> | :) |
| 01:40 | <Lachy_> | I wish I were paid read and respond to e-mail, it might allow me to keep up with it all ;-) |
| 01:41 | <karlUshi> | Lachy: I sent you the link already :p |
| 01:41 | <Lachy_> | karlUshi: do you mean that job at the W3C in Japan? |
| 01:41 | <karlUshi> | but do not think it is more satisfying to be paid to read and reply to them ;) |
| 01:41 | <karlUshi> | Lachy: yes |
| 01:45 | jmhodges | (n=jmh⊙cwrrc) Quit ("Ex-Chat") |
| 01:48 | <tantek> | BTW Hixie, did you mean FIFO? |
| 01:49 | <Hixie> | my e-mail is actually LIFO, though i guess i deal with feedback in a random access monner |
| 01:49 | <Hixie> | manner |
| 01:50 | <Hixie> | whatwg feedback ends up in buckets that i then deal with en masse |
| 01:50 | <Hixie> | (LIFO means i avoid the "reply to an e-mail that's already been replied to" thing) |
| 01:51 | <Hixie> | zcorpan_: are you still in favour of an autoplay attribute? or do you think that can wait til v2? |
| 01:51 | <Dashiva> | autoplay would allow (very minimal) non-script use even without script |
| 01:52 | <Dashiva> | *without native UI |
| 01:52 | tantek | is a little bit amazed that requests for a <video> element are being taken seriously. |
| 01:54 | <zcorpan_> | Hixie: it could wait til v2 i guess |
| 01:54 | <zcorpan_> | v1 would mostly have to be scripted to be useful anyway |
| 01:55 | <zcorpan_> | having only one declarative feature seems weird also ;) |
| 01:55 | <Hixie> | zcorpan_: yeah that was my conclusion too |
| 01:55 | <Lachy_> | Hixie, do you expect v2 to be published in this same spec, or is it something that will be published in HTML6? |
| 01:55 | <Hixie> | dunno |
| 01:55 | <Hixie> | canvas is already at "v2" |
| 01:56 | <Lachy_> | ok, so it just depends upon how fast implementations come |
| 01:56 | <Hixie> | pretty much |
| 01:56 | <kingryan> | tantek: yeah, we shouldn't go video, and get rid of img at the same time |
| 01:56 | <zcorpan_> | and if there's demand from authors, although judging from the list activity there already is demand :) |
| 01:56 | <kingryan> | s/go/do/ |
| 01:57 | <Lachy_> | I wonder if <video> could make it into Firefox 4 (it's probably too late for FF3) |
| 01:57 | <zcorpan_> | i wonder when wf2 features appear in firefox |
| 01:58 | <Lachy_> | hopefully FF4 too |
| 01:58 | <Lachy_> | I doubt IE8 will support it, I exect that they will just be focussing on DOM and CSS improvements before adding support for new HTML features |
| 01:59 | <tantek> | as they should, right? |
| 01:59 | <Hixie> | we can hope |
| 02:00 | <kingryan> | ok, that was supposed to be sarcastic :D |
| 02:00 | <Hixie> | hah |
| 02:00 | <Hixie> | i have considered suggesting dropping <object>, based on the disaster that it is |
| 02:00 | <Hixie> | but i don't think that would fly far |
| 02:01 | <kingryan> | it either needs to be dropped or better speced |
| 02:01 | <Hixie> | well it is "better specced" already in html5 |
| 02:01 | <kingryan> | and preferably the "better spec" would be based on actual experience of implementations that got it right |
| 02:01 | <Hixie> | though it might still need to be yet better |
| 02:01 | <tantek> | shouldn't be any harder than tables. *ducks* |
| 02:01 | <kingryan> | that's true |
| 02:01 | kingryan | throws a table at tantek |
| 02:03 | <zcorpan_> | Hixie: dropping as in disallow it in html5 documents or don't spec it at all? |
| 02:03 | <Hixie> | as in disallow |
| 02:04 | <Hixie> | we're gonna have to spec everything browsers support in due course |
| 02:04 | <Hixie> | if we want it interoperable |
| 02:04 | <zcorpan_> | ok |
| 02:05 | <zcorpan_> | <embed> doesn't allow fallback, so whenever i use flash and want fallback i use <object> (with a <param> hack to make it work in ie), which works fairly well |
| 02:05 | <Lachy_> | Object is still useful for flash |
| 02:06 | <Lachy_> | if the spec can make it interoperable, I see no reason why it should be dropped |
| 02:07 | <Hixie> | well, like i said, i don't think the suggestion would fly |
| 02:07 | <Hixie> | one can dream, though |
| 02:07 | <karlUshi> | Lachy: and given the fact that object support is not that bad. |
| 02:07 | <Lachy_> | it's not that good either |
| 02:07 | <Dashiva> | Object support is good, all five kinds of it :) |
| 02:07 | <karlUshi> | I have to add the testing results from Dashiva this morning |
| 02:08 | <Hixie> | <object> has gotted better since i added <object> to acid2 :-) |
| 02:08 | <Hixie> | gotten |
| 02:08 | <Hixie> | even |
| 02:08 | <Hixie> | but it's true that <object> support is still poor overall |
| 02:08 | <Hixie> | not surprising, though, it's overloaded to hell and back |
| 02:08 | <Hixie> | it's just a generally badly designed and poorly specified idea |
| 02:08 | <Hixie> | in html4 |
| 02:09 | <zcorpan_> | it was added to html4 after it was implemented in ie as an active x "object", wasn't it? |
| 02:09 | <Hixie> | i don't know the history |
| 02:09 | <zcorpan_> | think i've read that somewhere |
| 02:09 | <Hixie> | if it was added to IE for ActiveX, though, then the HTML4 spec is even worse than i thought. |
| 02:09 | tantek | (n=tantek⊙adspn) Quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)) |
| 02:10 | <Lachy_> | that would explain why the spec has the useless IE only classid attr |
| 02:10 | <karlUshi> | history is here - http://www.webstandards.org/learn/articles/askw3c/jun2004/ |
| 02:13 | hasather | (n=hasather⊙8ttc) has left #whatwg |
| 02:16 | <Lachy_> | karlUshi: do you know if any screen reader vendors, like JAWS and Windows Eyes, are planning to join the HTML WG? |
| 02:16 | <Hixie> | is Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis here? |
| 02:17 | <karlUshi> | Lachy: I do not know, but you are welcome to sen email to the appropriate persons |
| 02:17 | <othermaciej> | Apple is a screen reader vendor |
| 02:18 | <Lachy_> | I have no idea who to send it to. I thought perhaps you could send one on behalf of the w3c? |
| 02:18 | <Lachy_> | othermaciej: I didn't know that |
| 02:18 | <Hixie> | you need a mac :-) |
| 02:18 | <Lachy_> | I have a mac at home |
| 02:18 | <Hixie> | oh |
| 02:18 | <Hixie> | well then |
| 02:18 | <Hixie> | you own the screen reader in question |
| 02:18 | <Hixie> | it's reasonably good |
| 02:18 | <Lachy_> | how do I operate it? |
| 02:18 | <Hixie> | doesn't support aural CSS though |
| 02:19 | <othermaciej> | Lachy_: you can turn it on via the Control Panel I think |
| 02:19 | <othermaciej> | it's called VoiceOver |
| 02:19 | <Hixie> | spotlight for "Screen reader" |
| 02:19 | <Lachy_> | ok, I'll look for it tonight |
| 02:19 | <karlUshi> | Lachy: http://www.apple.com/accessibility/voiceover/ |
| 02:19 | <othermaciej> | most go out to dinner |
| 02:19 | <Hixie> | or press command-f5 |
| 02:21 | <Lachy_> | it's lunch time, cya |
| 02:24 | <zcorpan_> | "The <object> element was originally introduced by Microsoft in Internet Explorer 3 for the inclusion of Microsoft Component Object Model or COM objects (such as ActiveX Controls and a wide variety of different media types and plug-ins). Internet Explorer introduced this tag with support for ActiveX controls, and Microsoft has continued to develop around it." -- http://www.devasp.com/samplechapters/html401/chapter10.asp |
| 02:24 | <zcorpan_> | that's not where i read it before, but it says basically the same thing |
| 02:24 | <Hixie> | man a lot of people on the video thread don't seem to understand the concept of not going to extremes |
| 02:25 | <hendry> | herding cats :) |
| 02:26 | <Dashiva> | I wonder if the ones suggesting browsers "fix" <object> handling even thought about backwards compatability |
| 02:28 | <zcorpan_> | just doing what html4 says doesn't work, as it's not compatible with ie or the web aiui, and it's underspecified |
| 02:29 | <Hixie> | what about html5 though? |
| 02:30 | <zcorpan_> | i haven't looked at <object> in html5 closely |
| 02:32 | <zcorpan_> | btw, since <video> basically has the same fallback as <object>, it should probably be part of the "figure fallback object" concept for what a <figure> represents in different fallback situations |
| 02:33 | <zcorpan_> | consider <figure><video><object><video><p>foo, or vice versa |
| 02:35 | <zcorpan_> | or, perhaps that's just for the content model of <object> |
| 02:37 | <zcorpan_> | but it applies anyway |
| 02:37 | othermaciej | (i=mjs@nat/apple/x-f9f4f9f128aaffb0) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) |
| 02:38 | kingryan | (n=kingryan⊙dsdsn) Quit () |
| 02:38 | <zcorpan_> | or not. <video> is transparent |
| 02:39 | <zcorpan_> | nm the above :) |
| 02:42 | <karlUshi> | http://esw.w3.org/topic/ObjectTestResults |
| 02:42 | <karlUshi> | I have updated the table. |
| 02:42 | <karlUshi> | Many Thanks Dashiva!!! |
| 02:45 | <Dashiva> | karlUshi: Looking at the report mails, the result in test 7 is the same in IE6 and IE7. Just tester disagreement whether it was Fail or Bug |
| 02:46 | BenWard | (n=BenWard⊙cccnc) Quit () |
| 02:47 | <Dashiva> | Probably the same for Opera 9.0 and 9.1 on test 5 |
| 02:47 | <karlUshi> | It's why I keep the mail reference. |
| 02:47 | <karlUshi> | it is one of the issue with testing. |
| 02:47 | hendry | (n=hendry⊙9851) Quit ("nn") |
| 02:48 | <karlUshi> | There is the bias of the tester. |
| 02:48 | <Hixie> | zcorpan_: i haven't really looked at fallback closely yet |
| 02:50 | <Lachy_> | well, that was a potentially profitable lunch ;-) It pays to be in the right place at the right time! |
| 02:50 | <Hixie> | you convinced microsoft to implement ogg theora in an IE7 update patch? :-) |
| 02:51 | <Lachy_> | they're shooting a British Airways commercial down at circular quay, and if I get seen in the final cut, I get a $1000 :-D |
| 02:51 | <Hixie> | hah |
| 02:51 | <Hixie> | nice |
| 02:52 | <zcorpan_> | wow |
| 02:52 | <zcorpan_> | cool |
| 03:09 | <Dashiva> | Only 116 replies to questionnaire to go |
| 03:11 | mpt | (n=mpt⊙1dtn) Quit ("Leaving") |
| 03:18 | zcorpan_ | updated http://simon.html5.org/articles/mobile-results |
| 03:20 | <Lachy_> | zcorpan_: what did you change on that page? |
| 03:24 | <zcorpan_> | Lachy: changes are annotated with <del> and <ins> |
| 03:24 | <zcorpan_> | except in the table |
| 03:24 | <zcorpan_> | added (False) and changed class name to "fail" |
| 03:29 | <zcorpan_> | and summary="" updated to match |
| 03:30 | <Lachy_> | you don't have Nokia WebKit browser results |
| 03:30 | <Lachy_> | I test one for you |
| 03:31 | <zcorpan_> | i've got results for it, after the article was published |
| 03:31 | <zcorpan_> | filed a bug on it too |
| 03:32 | <zcorpan_> | http://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9677 |
| 03:34 | <Lachy_> | how come it's not listed in the result table? |
| 03:34 | <zcorpan_> | because i decided not to add more results to the table |
| 03:35 | <zcorpan_> | perhaps i should |
| 03:47 | <zcorpan_> | added |
| 03:51 | h3h | (n=w3rd⊙csrrc) Quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)) |
| 04:15 | othermaciej_ | (i=mjs@nat/apple/x-13fa27c4ed786c41) Quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)) |
| 04:37 | <zcorpan_> | http://diveintomark.org/ has switched to html5 |
| 04:43 | <othermaciej> | wow, he's working at Google too |
| 04:44 | <sayrer> | hmm, I find it hard to believe it won't affect the blogging, as he claims in the comments |
| 04:44 | <sayrer> | most people vanish into the black hole |
| 04:45 | <othermaciej> | I'm sure he has arrangements |
| 04:54 | <zcorpan_> | nn |
| 04:55 | <Hixie> | my own vanishing into a black hole has little to do with google and more to do with my much more active social life :) |
| 04:56 | zcorpan_ | (n=zcorpan⊙8sts) has left #whatwg |
| 05:16 | htmlr | (n=cjb⊙Cnbna) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) |
| 05:25 | <karlUshi> | hmmm Apollo (Adobe) is using WebKit |
| 05:26 | <karlUshi> | http://labs.adobe.com/wiki/index.php/Apollo:developerfaq#What_HTML_and_JavaScript_Engine_is_used_within_Apollo.3F |
| 05:27 | <othermaciej> | so I've heard |
| 05:27 | <sayrer> | huh, I guess that makes three JS engines shipping in Apollo |
| 05:28 | <Hixie> | heh |
| 05:28 | <Hixie> | what's the first? |
| 05:28 | <othermaciej> | Tamarin, JavaScriptCore, SpiderMonkey |
| 05:28 | <sayrer> | no, the flash player has two I thought |
| 05:28 | <othermaciej> | I hope Adobe chooses to abide by the terms of the LGPL soon |
| 05:28 | <othermaciej> | those are the three though |
| 05:28 | <othermaciej> | Tamarin for Flash, SpiderMonkey for PDF, and JavaScriptCore for HTML |
| 05:29 | <Hixie> | ood times |
| 05:29 | <Hixie> | good times even |
| 05:29 | <sayrer> | Flash has their old one too, I thought |
| 05:29 | <Hixie> | apollo is so doomed |
| 05:29 | <sayrer> | Tamarin is only AS3 |
| 05:29 | <othermaciej> | (if you are thinking "WTF?? PDF executing JavaScript?" then you are not alone |
| 05:29 | <othermaciej> | well then they might have 4 |
| 05:29 | <sayrer> | they have been embedding spidermonkey for a long long time |
| 05:30 | <sayrer> | acrobat has lots of forms features |
| 05:30 | <karlUshi> | the new version of PDF is Mars |
| 05:30 | <karlUshi> | http://labs.adobe.com/wiki/index.php/Mars:FAQ |
| 05:31 | bzed | (n=bzed⊙dpan) Quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)) |
| 05:31 | <othermaciej> | Apollo is their answer to the question of whether they want to replace the web with Flash, replace it with PDF, or embrace the web |
| 05:31 | <othermaciej> | apparently the answer is "all three!" |
| 05:31 | <Hixie> | hah |
| 05:31 | <karlUshi> | Mars includes some parts of SVG |
| 05:31 | <sayrer> | well, not such a dumb answer, looking at the Web |
| 05:31 | <Hixie> | the problem with appolo, and the reason it's doomed, is that they're going to charge for development |
| 05:32 | <othermaciej> | wait, is Mars SVG or not? |
| 05:32 | <othermaciej> | I can't tell from that FAQ |
| 05:32 | <sayrer> | Hixie: that seems kinda dumb |
| 05:32 | <Hixie> | it's their business model |
| 05:32 | <karlUshi> | http://labs.adobe.com/wiki/index.php/Mars:FAQ#How_are_high-end_print_features_supported_in_SVG.3F |
| 05:32 | <Hixie> | fine by me though |
| 05:32 | <sayrer> | though it worked for Flash |
| 05:32 | <othermaciej> | anyway I would like them to stop violating the LGPL, I hope the polite requests will be sufficient to work |
| 05:32 | <karlUshi> | "Where SVG does not have sufficient function to support capabilities in PDF, private namespace extensions have been added. Over time, it is hoped that these features will be incorporated into the SVG standard." |
| 05:33 | <sayrer> | othermaciej: has khtml always been lgpl? |
| 05:33 | <othermaciej> | sayrer: yes |
| 05:33 | <Hixie> | sayrer: not really. flash is only widely used where there is no alternative. |
| 05:34 | <karlUshi> | they also seem to have another forms format |
| 05:34 | <karlUshi> | http://labs.adobe.com/wiki/index.php/Mars:FAQ#What_is_the_transition_or_compatibility_between_a_mars_pdf_and_an_xfa_pdf.3F |
| 05:34 | <karlUshi> | "XFA (dynamic) forms provide advanced capabilities around forms and processing XML forms data. As XFA is part of PDF, it is a corresponding part of Mars. Much like Mars does for other PDF features, Mars make access to XFA components of a PDF easier." |
| 05:34 | <sayrer> | Hixie: I surf daily on AMD64 linux. flash is the only problem for me. so it seems to meet the bar for ubiquity if people like me are left out in the cold. |
| 05:35 | <karlUshi> | http://partners.adobe.com/public/developer/xml/index_arch.html |
| 05:35 | <Hixie> | sayrer: i'm not saying flash is not used, i'm saying it's not used much when html would do the job instead. |
| 05:35 | <karlUshi> | Adobe XML Forms Architecture (XFA) |
| 05:35 | <Hixie> | sayrer: you don't see wikis in flash e.g. |
| 05:35 | <sayrer> | Hixie: I think that is incorrect |
| 05:35 | <Hixie> | really? |
| 05:35 | <Hixie> | examples? |
| 05:36 | <othermaciej> | hey, we should drop both XForms Transitional and Web Forms 2 in favor of XFA |
| 05:36 | <sayrer> | real estate in NYC, the MIT hotel for my next business trip, boostmobile.com are yesterday's encounters |
| 05:36 | karlUshi | wonders what would give a features table of all forms languages side by side |
| 05:37 | <sayrer> | http://www.hotelatmit.com/ |
| 05:37 | <sayrer> | http://boostmobile.com |
| 05:37 | <sayrer> | I don't remember the broker sites |
| 05:37 | <karlUshi> | http://labs.adobe.com/wiki/index.php/XForms_Converter |
| 05:37 | <sayrer> | half of them don't work |
| 05:38 | <karlUshi> | http://labs.adobe.com/wiki/index.php/XForms_Converter#Conversion_Details XForms <-> XFA |
| 05:38 | <sayrer> | my conjecture is that "high value" sites are likely to require flash |
| 05:38 | <sayrer> | just as they are likely to have a higher percentage of Safari, Opera, and Firefox users |
| 05:40 | <sayrer> | my research on prepaid cellular plans shows that Boost is seen as "premium" compared to Tracfone and Virgin |
| 05:40 | <sayrer> | neither of which featured flash |
| 05:41 | <karlUshi> | at the bottom of this page, there are few others Forms markup languages |
| 05:41 | <Lachy_> | Is Apollo Adobe's version of Widgets, like Apple Dasboard? |
| 05:41 | <karlUshi> | http://xml.coverpages.org/xmlForms.html |
| 05:41 | <karlUshi> | XHTML-FML, XFDL, XFA, EFS |
| 05:43 | <sayrer> | Lachy_: I think it is Adobe's version of Visual Basic |
| 05:44 | <sayrer> | whether it will succeed is an interesting question |
| 05:44 | <sayrer> | some say people that would have been VB programmers are PHP guys now |
| 05:45 | <Lachy_> | ok. Their description: "[a system] that allows developers to leverage their existing web development skills (Flash, Flex, HTML, JavaScript, Ajax) to build and deploy Rich Internet Applications (RIAs) to the desktop." makes it sound like a widget |
| 05:45 | <sayrer> | so Apollo won't really work if that's the case |
| 05:45 | <Lachy_> | http://labs.adobe.com/wiki/index.php/Apollo:DeveloperFAQ#What_is_Apollo.3F |
| 05:45 | csarven | (n=nevrasc⊙m1mvc) Quit () |
| 05:45 | <sayrer> | does anyone here know Flex? |
| 05:46 | <Lachy_> | I hope it fails. Flash is a big enough problem already, without it being pushed even further |
| 05:46 | <sayrer> | I don't see flash as a "problem" |
| 05:47 | <sayrer> | it happens to work better in presentations than other things |
| 05:47 | <sayrer> | that is how it ends up on the web |
| 05:47 | <Lachy_> | from a usability point of view on the web, I hate flash |
| 05:47 | <sayrer> | yep, presentationware vs. software |
| 05:48 | <sayrer> | but there is nothing immoral about presentationware |
| 05:49 | <Lachy_> | the immoral part of flash is that it's a proprietary technology |
| 05:49 | <sayrer> | Lachy_: are you using linux right now? |
| 05:50 | <sayrer> | none of those binary drivers or nonfree codecs, I hope |
| 05:50 | <Lachy_> | sayrer: I don't mind proprietary technologies in general on the desktop, the problem with proprietary on the web is that it locks all users into a single vendor |
| 05:51 | <karlUshi> | sayrer: plus the computer hardware which must be full of proprietary technos ;) |
| 05:51 | <sayrer> | Lachy_: hmm, I don't buy it as a goal |
| 05:51 | <sayrer> | choice and interop is the goal |
| 05:51 | <sayrer> | and accessibility |
| 05:51 | <Lachy_> | yeah, that's right. |
| 05:52 | <sayrer> | I am the only person I know who can't run flash |
| 05:52 | <Lachy_> | proprietary technologies take away choice and interop |
| 05:52 | <sayrer> | so it is not the worst thing ever |
| 05:52 | <sayrer> | oh, I don't agree with that |
| 05:52 | <sayrer> | that is just a facile opposition of "proprietary" with "choice" |
| 05:53 | <karlUshi> | interoperability = two persons not knowing each other can build applications that works together. compatibility = systems designed to work with another system. |
| 05:53 | <sayrer> | they certainly don't hurt interop, in flash's case |
| 05:53 | <karlUshi> | so interoperability can be achieved only if the technology is documented. |
| 05:53 | <sayrer> | for instance, Flash on mac works well with flash on windows |
| 05:53 | <sayrer> | you couldn't say that about MS Word |
| 05:53 | <Lachy_> | but the client software is still from the same vendor |
| 05:54 | <sayrer> | so |
| 05:54 | bzed_ | (n=bzed⊙dpan) Quit ("Leaving") |
| 05:54 | <sayrer> | that might be interesting if you are a business competing with Adobe |
| 05:54 | <sayrer> | otherwise, who really cares |
| 05:54 | <karlUshi> | interoperability is not about choices, it is about technology documented. |
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| 05:55 | <sayrer> | lots of documented technologies aren't interoperable |
| 05:55 | <karlUshi> | You could have something under GPL and working on one platform only. |
| 05:55 | <Lachy_> | yeah, I know that |
| 05:55 | <karlUshi> | sayrer: exactly |
| 05:55 | <sayrer> | karlUshi: then I am not sure what you mean |
| 05:56 | <sayrer> | "interoperability is not about choices, it is about technology documented." |
| 05:56 | <karlUshi> | ah yes I misread about you. |
| 05:56 | <karlUshi> | oops |
| 05:56 | <karlUshi> | I misread you |
| 05:56 | <karlUshi> | hmmm need cafeine |
| 05:56 | <karlUshi> | [14:03] <sayrer> lots of documented technologies aren't interoperable |
| 05:57 | <karlUshi> | this is not because of the documentation, it is because of implementations |
| 05:57 | <sayrer> | disagree |
| 05:57 | <karlUshi> | :) |
| 05:57 | <sayrer> | take any WS-* standard, w3c or elsewhere |
| 05:57 | <Hixie> | html4 is a great example of why documentation isn't enough |
| 05:57 | <Hixie> | you need DECENT documentation |
| 05:57 | <karlUshi> | Hixie: yes. |
| 05:57 | <karlUshi> | not talking about that |
| 05:58 | <karlUshi> | interoperability = two persons not knowing each other can build applications that works together. |
| 05:58 | <karlUshi> | compatibility = systems designed to work with another system. |
| 05:58 | <sayrer> | huh, I would say the problems with HTML4 are happy problems |
| 05:58 | <sayrer> | karlUshi: those definitions are not operational enough for me |
| 05:58 | <karlUshi> | the key for me |
| 05:59 | <karlUshi> | is not knowing each other |
| 05:59 | <sayrer> | independently developed is important |
| 05:59 | <sayrer> | the problem is you tense |
| 05:59 | <sayrer> | your tense |
| 05:59 | <sayrer> | "two persons not knowing each other can build applications that works together. " |
| 05:59 | <sayrer> | I would say "two persons not knowing each other HAVE BUILT applications that works together. " |
| 05:59 | <karlUshi> | Excuse my French |
| 06:00 | <sayrer> | hehe |
| 06:00 | <karlUshi> | understanding interoperability problems ;) |
| 06:01 | <sayrer> | but if Flash works basically everywhere, that trumps a crappy standard that doesn't work everywhere, for me |
| 06:01 | <othermaciej> | well, a single implementation can be a substitute for interoperability |
| 06:02 | <othermaciej> | there are tradeoffs in cost obviously |
| 06:02 | <karlUshi> | othermaciej: it is called ersatz ;) |
| 06:03 | <sayrer> | you could say that we are sitting around having this conversation because MS got to 95% or so |
| 06:04 | <othermaciej> | the single implementation I had in mind was Flash |
| 06:05 | <othermaciej> | but yes, Microsoft could have been the single significant web browser implementation |
| 06:05 | <sayrer> | well yes, I thought I would provide an interesting twist ;) |
| 06:06 | <sayrer> | Flash and MSIE are just two examples of competition for interoperable, documented standards |
| 06:07 | <Hixie> | the problem with flash is that in 100 years, when adobe no longer exists, and flash certainly no longer exists, we'll not be able to do anything with .swf files |
| 06:07 | <Hixie> | whereas we _will_ be able to play html files |
| 06:07 | <sayrer> | I am not bold enough to make 100 yr predictions |
| 06:08 | <karlUshi> | hmmm if humankind still exists in 100 years too |
| 06:08 | <sayrer> | my point was merely that the competition is stiff |
| 06:08 | <Hixie> | (the reason i started whatwg was to make sure that in 100, 200, 1000 years, archeologists don't need to reverse engineer html files to work out what they should do) |
| 06:09 | <Hixie> | (that's why i believe error handling documentation is critical) |
| 06:09 | <sayrer> | so suggestions for process and stanadardization that don't account for that are not to be welcomed. it doesn't really have anything to do with morals. |
| 06:10 | <sayrer> | I am more selfish than Hixie, I guess. I just don't want to waste time. |
| 06:13 | <othermaciej> | sayrer: "single implementation" != "interoperable, documented standard" (or did you mean "competition for" in the sense of they aren't in that category) |
| 06:14 | <sayrer> | othermaciej: I meant it in the sense of your parenthetical question |
| 06:14 | <sayrer> | stupid standards and bad process are worse than bad proprietary technology |
| 06:16 | <othermaciej> | I'm more interested in what is good than what sucks more out of bad alternatives |
| 06:17 | <sayrer> | I am interested in making sure there is something good |
| 06:17 | <karlUshi> | "If you have an apple and I have an apple and we exchange apples then you and I will still each have one apple. But if you have an idea and I have an idea and we exchange these ideas, then each of us will have two ideas. " -George Bernard Shaw |
| 06:30 | sayrer | (n=chatzill⊙ucmc) Quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.74-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.8.0.4/2006060816]") |
| 06:38 | othermaciej | (i=mjs@nat/apple/x-b5f32c42b2ac67e6) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) |
| 06:48 | marcosc | (n=chatzill⊙1112) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) |
| 06:55 | Lachy_ | (n=chatzill⊙5122) Quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.77 [Firefox 2.0.0.2/2007021917]") |
| 06:59 | <Lachy_> | now this is so ridiculous, it's funny http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html-editor/2007JanMar/0052.html :-) |
| 07:00 | <Lachy_> | I think it translates to something like "are all the problems in my life caused by XHTML?" |
| 07:00 | <Hemebond> | LOL |
| 07:02 | <Hixie> | oh my, that's a sad e-mail. |
| 07:02 | <Hixie> | maybe i've been pushing the whole "xhtml is evil" thing a little too hard |
| 07:03 | <Hemebond> | Aha! So it was yoooooooouuuuu |
| 07:03 | <Hemebond> | Why is XHTML evil? |
| 07:03 | <Hixie> | didn't you read? it destroys hard drives |
| 07:04 | <Lachy_> | and commits credit card fraud |
| 07:04 | <Hixie> | indeed |
| 07:07 | <Hemebond> | Hixie... why are you telling everyone XHTML is evil? |
| 07:08 | <Hemebond> | Hmm. Something has happening to my RSS subscription to hixie.ch |
| 07:08 | <Hixie> | i was joking :-) |
| 07:08 | <Hixie> | (xhtml itself is not evil, it's boring. sending xhtml as text/html is bad, which is the point i famously make) |
| 07:09 | <Lachy__> | my connection dropped out after my last message. What did I miss? |
| 07:09 | <Hemebond> | That's what I thought. |
| 07:09 | <Lachy__> | ah, never mind, whatbot's active |
| 07:16 | <Lachy__> | http://lachy.id.au/log/2007/03/problems-with-xhtml |
| 07:17 | <Hemebond> | Lies! |
| 07:17 | <Hemebond> | I'm gonna use my XHTML bot to DOS your web server. |
| 07:17 | <Lachy__> | ha |
| 07:18 | <Lachy__> | it's time to go, cya later |
| 07:19 | Lachy__ | (n=chatzill⊙5122) Quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.77 [Firefox 2.0.0.2/2007021917]") |
| 07:23 | htmlr_ | (n=cjb⊙Cnbna) Quit () |
| 07:27 | Lachy_ | (n=chatzill⊙5122) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) |
| 07:30 | <karlUshi> | Lachy: we receive a lot of these messages. Usually people see the DOCTYPE address in the document source, then it means that if their computer has troubles it is because of W3C. |
| 07:30 | <karlUshi> | It is interesting in terms of social behaviour. |
| 07:38 | <Hemebond> | http://ln.hixie.ch/?start=1172653243&count=1 Hmmmmm |
| 07:38 | <Hemebond> | Is there anything to use yet, regarding HTML5? |
| 07:38 | <Hemebond> | I'm guessing no. |
| 07:39 | <Hemebond> | I could RTFM but... |
| 07:43 | <Hemebond> | My Tallest? |
| 07:43 | <Hemebond> | Hey, my Tallest! |
| 07:43 | <Hixie> | to use? |
| 07:43 | <Hemebond> | Nothing has been released yet, is that right? |
| 07:43 | <Hixie> | <canvas> is widely implemented |
| 07:43 | <Hixie> | web forms 2 is in opera 9 |
| 07:44 | <Hixie> | drag and drop is in IE and safari |
| 07:44 | <Hixie> | autocomplete is in most browsers |
| 07:44 | <Hemebond> | And here I sit using Firefox... |
| 07:44 | <Hixie> | storage apis are in firefox |
| 07:44 | <Hixie> | online/offline apis are in firefox |
| 07:44 | <Hemebond> | Oh yeah, heard about that. |
| 07:44 | <Hixie> | event-source is in opera9 |
| 07:44 | <Hemebond> | They're in the next version, arent' they? |
| 07:45 | <Hixie> | storage and online/offline are in ff2 i thkn |
| 07:45 | <Hixie> | think |
| 07:45 | <Hixie> | contenteditable is in IE and other browsers |
| 07:45 | <Hixie> | text selection apis are in firefox and other browsers |
| 07:45 | <Hixie> | cross-document messaging are in opera |
| 07:45 | <Hemebond> | Hmm. I'm very out of touch. |
| 07:46 | <Hixie> | sound might be in opera (has that shipped yet?) |
| 07:46 | <Hemebond> | Which is strange because I read a lot every night. |
| 07:46 | <Hemebond> | I guess I should have been following WHATWG |
| 07:47 | <Hemebond> | "The work is currently split between three specifications." |
| 07:47 | <karlUshi> | Hixie ;) there is an over characterization on the example you gave in your weblog entry |
| 07:47 | <Hemebond> | And there are 2 listed... |
| 07:47 | <karlUshi> | <?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?> |
| 07:47 | <karlUshi> | <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.1//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml11/DTD/xhtml11.dtd">; |
| 07:47 | <karlUshi> | <html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"; |
| 07:47 | <karlUshi> | xmlns:xsi="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema-instance"; |
| 07:47 | <karlUshi> | xsi:schemaLocation="http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/SCHEMA/xhtml11.xsd">; |
| 07:47 | <Hixie> | Hemebond: the web control spec isn't started yet |
| 07:47 | <Hemebond> | I see. |
| 07:48 | <karlUshi> | luckily enough you specified that the bold (that people will not read) |
| 07:48 | <karlUshi> | is optional :) |
| 07:48 | <karlUshi> | is not optional |
| 07:49 | <karlUshi> | <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.1//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml11/DTD/xhtml11.dtd">; |
| 07:49 | <karlUshi> | <html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">; |
| 07:49 | <karlUshi> | marketing :) |
| 07:50 | <Hixie> | karlUshi: i copied that header straight out of the only example in the spec, so if there's any "marketing" going on, i recommend talking to steven about it. |
| 07:50 | <karlUshi> | unrelated. :) |
| 07:50 | <Hixie> | not really |
| 07:50 | <Hixie> | people write by copy and paste |
| 07:51 | <karlUshi> | s/people/geeks/ |
| 07:51 | <karlUshi> | over characterization again :) |
| 07:51 | <Hixie> | my research suggested that it's people in general, but i have no interest in discussing this without actual data |
| 07:52 | <Hixie> | and my data is at work |
| 07:52 | <karlUshi> | agreed |
| 08:06 | htmlr | (n=cjb⊙1116) Quit () |
| 08:19 | karlUshi | (n=karl⊙1222) Quit ("Where dwelt Ymir, or wherein did he find sustenance?") |
| 08:27 | Hixie | mumbles something about maybe a lot of the people commenting on this <video> spec didn't read the spec |
| 08:30 | <Hemebond> | Down with <video>! |
| 08:30 | <Hixie> | you don't like it? |
| 08:31 | <Hemebond> | Dunno. Haven't read the spec. ;) |
| 08:31 | <Hemebond> | I was talking to Anne last night about it actually. |
| 08:31 | <Hixie> | heh |
| 08:36 | <Hemebond> | oh. um. I not too keen on it. |
| 08:37 | <Hemebond> | But I'll probably change my mind. |
| 08:37 | <Hemebond> | Eventually. |
| 08:46 | yod | (n=ot⊙sbn) Quit ("Leaving") |
| 09:47 | <krijnh> | [0:41] <zcorpan_> i know some who are subscribed but i haven't seen any mails from them to the list |
| 09:47 | <krijnh> | Perhaps the lurkers are because of: |
| 09:47 | <krijnh> | [23:15] <Hixie> gotta love some of the mails to whatwg |
| 09:47 | <krijnh> | [23:15] <Hixie> "i'm not an expert in any of the relevant topics, but here's my opinion anyway" |
| 09:48 | <Hixie> | yeah, that's the reason i lurk on a lot the lists i lurk on -- i just don't know enough about hte topic to contribute, but it's still interesting to listen |
| 09:48 | <krijnh> | Probably half of the "Invited Experts" don't qualify themselves as expert and don't dare to give their opinion because of that |
| 09:48 | <krijnh> | Exactly |
| 09:50 | <krijnh> | When is one an expert btw? |
| 09:50 | <Hixie> | when one has experience, usually |
| 09:51 | <krijnh> | Hmm |
| 09:52 | <krijnh> | "An expert is someone widely recognized as a reliable source of knowledge, technique, or skill whose judgment is accorded authority and status by the public or their peers" |
| 09:52 | <krijnh> | Note to self; buy some nice peers |
| 10:10 | <Hixie> | hm |
| 10:10 | <Hixie> | video.length or video.duration? |
| 10:10 | <krijnh> | duration |
| 10:11 | <Hixie> | ok |
| 10:11 | <Hixie> | change |
| 10:11 | <Hixie> | d |
| 10:11 | <krijnh> | .length is confusing with array.length |
| 10:11 | <krijnh> | Or isn't it? |
| 10:12 | <Hixie> | yes. i just confused myself when fixing the spec. :-) |
| 10:12 | <krijnh> | And String.length |
| 10:13 | <krijnh> | unsigned long |
| 10:15 | <krijnh> | TimeRanges.length is also confusing otherwise |
| 10:16 | <Hixie> | that's the one that confused me |
| 10:16 | <krijnh> | :) |
| 10:16 | <krijnh> | Gee, I think like an expert ;] |
| 10:18 | Hixie | just replied to 123 e-mails in one go |
| 10:18 | <krijnh> | <video id="foo"><img></video> <dialog for="foo">..</dialog> |
| 10:19 | <krijnh> | Okay, that's pretty useless probably :) |
| 10:19 | <Hixie> | ok now i shall work on going to sleep |
| 10:19 | <Hixie> | maybe after watching bsg |
| 10:20 | <krijnh> | Hixie: on public-html ? |
| 10:20 | <Hixie> | no, whatwg list |
| 10:20 | <Hixie> | htmlwg isn't discussing <video> as far as i know |
| 10:21 | <Hixie> | except for some spillage from the whatwg list |
| 10:21 | <krijnh> | Yeah, public-html isn't too interesting yet |
| 10:22 | <Hixie> | not clear what public-html will do |
| 10:22 | <Hixie> | we're just waiting on cwilso for now i guess |
| 10:27 | <krijnh> | "that overloading elements leads to implementation difficulties" |
| 10:27 | <krijnh> | It doesn't for <input type="foo"> |
| 10:27 | marcosc | reads hixies book-length email on <video>.... great summary, btw :) |
| 10:29 | <Hixie> | <input type=foo> is a disaster zone almost as bad as <object> |
| 10:29 | <Hixie> | it's had longer to get fixed, so it's better now |
| 10:29 | <Hixie> | but it used to be terrible |
| 10:29 | <krijnh> | I mean for web forms 2 |
| 10:30 | <krijnh> | There the type attribute is extended |
| 10:30 | <Hixie> | web forms 2 was basically forced into using <input> for back compat with form submission in egacy uas |
| 10:30 | <Hixie> | you'll note we used new elements wherever possible |
| 10:30 | <Hixie> | legacy uas |
| 10:31 | <Hixie> | (one of the big problems with <input> is dynamic changes to the "type" attribute) |
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| 10:36 | <Hemebond> | So Web Forms 2 doesn't support dynamic element changes? |
| 10:38 | <krijnh> | Opera does |
| 10:43 | <othermaciej> | <input> generally sucks, the only semi-advantage is that if you invent a new type, users in older UAs just get a text field they can type in |
| 10:43 | <othermaciej> | but otherwise, you have all sorts of different behaviors and semantics overloaded onto one element |
| 10:44 | <krijnh> | http://krijnhoetmer.nl/stuff/html5/input-changing-attributes/ |
| 11:00 | MikeSmith | (n=MikeSmit⊙1612dbj) Quit ("Get thee behind me, satan.") |
| 12:01 | <zcorpan_> | borders! |
| 12:01 | <zcorpan_> | Charl: cheers |
| 12:02 | <Charl> | zcorpan_: hi :) |
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| 15:33 | <Lachy> | http://booskovski.blogspot.com/2006/11/richard-dawkins-some-great-clips.html - wow, 30 is a lot of videos embedded in one page! |
| 16:02 | <zcorpan_> | i really dislike the various JS hacks to get around target=_blank not being valid :| |
| 16:03 | <krijnh> | I prefer setAttribute('target', '_blank') |
| 16:04 | <krijnh> | </sarcasm> btw |
| 16:08 | <zcorpan_> | +1 on dropping togglePause() fwiw |
| 16:09 | <zcorpan_> | it's safer to check the state than to presume what the state was |
| 16:09 | <zcorpan_> | ...when doing the scripted ui, that is |
| 16:25 | zcorpan_ | is replying to fallback |
| 16:49 | hasather | (n=hasather⊙8ttc) has left #whatwg |
| 16:56 | <zcorpan_> | http://www.accessifyforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=7688 great news |
| 16:57 | <met_> | I saw forum discussion from yesterday, on http://forum.czilla.cz/ we made for moderators who do not want waste time still checking the forum, patch which send mail everytime new topic (or any new post) came with topic text. So moderators can simply check mails and see immidiatelly when some spam, of off-topic come |
| 17:27 | <zcorpan_> | thinking about applying to a summer job at opera, perhaps i should start with a real test suite for html5 then |
| 17:34 | tantek | (n=tantek⊙adspn) Quit () |
| 17:39 | sayrer | (n=chatzill⊙ucmc) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) |
| 17:41 | <Dashiva> | That Gareth Hay fellow confuses me. Is he really arguing two contradicting points at the same time? |
| 17:46 | ROBOd | (n=robod⊙8321) Quit ("http://www.robodesign.ro";) |
| 18:12 | peepo | (n=Jay⊙hrbc) Quit ("later") |
| 18:24 | <zcorpan_> | Lachy: LOL |
| 18:31 | hsivonen | is catching up with the public-html archive |
| 18:31 | <hsivonen> | I wonder if I should wait for Chris Wilson to join before metooing to Howcome's proposal... |
| 18:32 | zcorpan_ | would |
| 18:33 | <hsivonen> | yeah |
| 18:36 | <zcorpan_> | why isn't there a "translate this page" plugin/extension for any browser that does the translation client-side? |
| 18:36 | hober | is sad that public-html isn't available via gmane (yet) |
| 18:36 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan_: I can think of two reasons: |
| 18:37 | <hsivonen> | 1) It doesn't work with the business model of Systran and the willingness of individual users to pay. |
| 18:37 | <sayrer> | google translate? |
| 18:38 | <hsivonen> | 2) Google's competing methodology relies on massive data and processing power. And their secret sauce that they don't want to let other decompile. |
| 18:38 | <sayrer> | looks like the Google Toolbar does it |
| 18:38 | <sayrer> | but that wouldn't work clientside |
| 18:39 | <zcorpan_> | hsivonen: btw, do you have the google translate bookmarklet again? |
| 18:39 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan_: http://hsivonen.iki.fi/test/translate.html |
| 18:39 | <zcorpan_> | thanks |
| 18:41 | <tylerr> | Hello all. Just put in my information to be accepted to the working group over at W3C. |
| 18:41 | <tylerr> | Thought I'd jump in here and say hello. |
| 18:47 | <zcorpan_> | tylerr: hi |
| 18:48 | <hsivonen> | hi |
| 18:49 | <tylerr> | Howdy |
| 18:49 | <tylerr> | I figure this is something I would like to be a part of since I'm spearheading standards and accessibility evangelism at my company. |
| 18:49 | <Dashiva> | Chris seemed like such a nice guy, and then it turns out he's a top-poster :( |
| 18:49 | <zcorpan_> | lol |
| 18:50 | <zcorpan_> | tylerr: which company? |
| 18:51 | <tylerr> | Ascentium Corporation. We have a presence in a large majority of Microsoft's internal and external pages and portals. |
| 18:51 | <tylerr> | So the opportunity to promote standards-based design and development is rather large. |
| 18:53 | <hsivonen> | cool |
| 18:54 | <tylerr> | It's going to be a challenge but the rewards will outweigh any rockblocks along the way. |
| 18:54 | <tylerr> | What about yourselves? |
| 18:55 | <zcorpan_> | http://forums.whatwg.org/viewtopic.php?t=7#32 |
| 18:56 | <tylerr> | Ah well that would answer that! Perhaps I'll go and introduce myself over there. ;) |
| 18:56 | <zcorpan_> | go ahead :) |
| 18:58 | <Dashiva> | IRC name or real name as forum name... decisions, decisions... |
| 19:10 | <tylerr> | I've given up trying to identify myself with an avatar-like identity. I'm a very indecisive individual so after a week of using a name, I'm likely to hate it. :) |
| 19:12 | <hsivonen> | tylerr: I'm the conformance checking guy |
| 19:13 | <tylerr> | Ah! So I'd come to you for all indecisiveness-related issues? ;) |
| 19:13 | <hsivonen> | tylerr: I don't decide what's conforming. |
| 19:14 | <tylerr> | Ah right right. |
| 19:14 | <kingryan> | tylerr: I agree, all of my online identities are now variations on my real name. avatars are annoying. |
| 19:15 | <tylerr> | kingryan: It's so much easier to remember your username. ;) |
| 19:19 | <Dashiva> | tylerr: When you've been using the same one for 10 years, it's sometimes more recognizable than your real name would be :) |
| 19:21 | <tylerr> | This is very true. **grins** I've only been using the internet personally for about 6 years, and my interest in web technologies hadn't sprung up until about 3 years ago. Now my online identity is spewed all over random technology and Apple sites. **laughs** |
| 19:24 | <tylerr> | And apparently Google likes to show information about me that has been deleted for a while still. |
| 19:29 | <Dashiva> | Mailing list archives provide an interesting peek into the past |
| 19:39 | <othermaciej> | wow, Chris Wilson's remarks on public-html were pretty intemperate |
| 19:44 | <Dashiva> | Did you see the blog exchange between Chris and Daniel? |
| 19:44 | <met_> | blog was ok |
| 19:44 | <othermaciej> | yes |
| 19:45 | <tylerr> | I read that, that was pretty *interesting*. |
| 19:47 | Charl | (n=charlvn⊙1211) Quit () |
| 19:55 | <Dashiva> | http://forums.whatwg.org/viewtopic.php?t=12 |
| 19:55 | <Dashiva> | That one puzzles me. |
| 19:57 | Hixie | sees the thread in public-html and decides to stay the hell out of it |
| 19:59 | <hsivonen> | it seems that a number of people are confused about how patent law works (for some definition of "works") and what the W3C Patent Policy can and cannot protect against |
| 20:00 | <Hixie> | there's a patent thread? |
| 20:00 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: I'm reading archives from the 14th |
| 20:00 | <hsivonen> | Re: Preparing to launch the Forms Task Force ... |
| 20:01 | <sayrer> | the last thing you want is a bunch of armchair lawyering |
| 20:02 | <hsivonen> | sayrer: more to the point, the last thing you want is *bad* armchair lawyering. othermaciej's armchair lawyering with dbaron's amendments was fine |
| 20:02 | <Hixie> | hsivonen: ah |
| 20:02 | <sayrer> | hsivonen: I disagree |
| 20:03 | <sayrer> | though I do agree some armchair lawyering can be especially bad |
| 20:03 | <icaaq> | hsivonen: Hi, I sent an emil to you about printing the spec, did you get it? |
| 20:03 | <hsivonen> | icaaq: I did. still catching up with last week's email. |
| 20:03 | <Dashiva> | Hixie: I gather from comments earlier that the html5 spec is at least partially generated. Would it be much work to also generate a version split into sections on different pages? |
| 20:04 | <hsivonen> | icaaq: I am wondering though why you sent it to me considering that I haven't blogged about printing the WHATWG specs yet (although I intend to) |
| 20:04 | <icaaq> | hsivonen: someone here told me to. |
| 20:04 | <Hixie> | Dashiva: it would be some work, maybe not a huge amount. i will end up doing it in due course if no-one else does. |
| 20:05 | <hsivonen> | icaaq: ah. ok. |
| 20:06 | <hsivonen> | sayrer: the problem is that it is really, really hard to get a real lawyer say something definitive on a mailing list. and someone needed to say that bogus reasons for avoiding the existing WHATWG prose are bogus |
| 20:07 | <sayrer> | oh, it's better to focus the discussion on technical matters |
| 20:07 | <Hixie> | the XMLHttpRequest spec is cute, it reads like one of my specs |
| 20:08 | <sayrer> | oh my, cwilson is off to an excellent start as chair |
| 20:08 | <sayrer> | :/ |
| 20:10 | <Dashiva> | Hixie: Is that a compliment, or? :) |
| 20:26 | <Hixie> | dunno :-) |
| 20:26 | <Hixie> | depends if you like my style or not |
| 20:35 | <hsivonen> | looks like in general the new people on public-html haven't internalized the backwards compat mindset yet :-( |
| 20:36 | <Hixie> | they haven't internalised the polite community aspect yet either it seems |
| 20:36 | <othermaciej> | I am sure they are educable |
| 20:38 | <Hixie> | i love how when i send out one of my gigantic e-mail replies to threads on whatwg, everyone dutifully forgets the earlier threads and replies to my mail instead |
| 20:38 | <Hixie> | makes my life so much easier |
| 20:39 | <othermaciej> | hsivonen: I was reluctant to do any armchair lawyering, but I didn't think any real lawyers would speak up |
| 20:39 | <Dashiva> | Heh |
| 20:40 | <othermaciej> | sayrer: it seemed like poor form to lose his cool like that |
| 20:41 | <Hixie> | http://ifacethoughts.net/2007/03/20/help-with-html-5/ is funny |
| 20:42 | <hasather> | Hixie: hehe |
| 20:42 | <gsnedders> | Hixie: I'm not sure I really like it in a spec, but it's good for a laugh (as it's expected to be more formal) |
| 20:42 | <Dashiva> | Hixie: I feel it sort of clears the table when you send one out. There's a "If I like this, I can just stop talking, if I don't like it I have this specific point to argue against" |
| 20:43 | <Dashiva> | Instead of all the what-ifs and uncollapsed wavefunctions floating around normally |
| 20:43 | <Hixie> | gsnedders: oh i didn't mean the humour, i meant the general way it phrases things, the way the idl is presented, etc. |
| 20:43 | <Hixie> | Dashiva: hah, yeah :-) that kinda is what i was going for :-) |
| 20:44 | <gsnedders> | Hixie: surely the humour is part of the general way it is presented, and therefore how things are phrased? |
| 20:44 | <gsnedders> | :D |
| 20:44 | <gsnedders> | (wrong window) |
| 20:48 | <Hixie> | oh well the tone might be |
| 20:48 | <Hixie> | there's some text in the web apps spec that is purely intended to be funny though |
| 20:48 | <Hixie> | and that really doesn't belong in a formal spec except for making the spec easier and more fun to read |
| 20:48 | <Hixie> | (in fact there's all kinds of easter eggs in there, especially in the examples) |
| 20:48 | <gsnedders> | if you must appease the markup gods… |
| 20:49 | <Hixie> | that's one example :-) |
| 20:49 | <sayrer> | heh |
| 20:49 | <gsnedders> | I came across that a few minutes ago |
| 20:49 | <othermaciej> | I am all in favor of amusing examples |
| 20:49 | <gsnedders> | "Then, if the element is one of the void elements, then there may be a single U+002F SOLIDUS (/) character. This character has no effect except to appease the markup gods. As this character is therefore just a symbol of faith, atheists should omit it." |
| 20:49 | <gsnedders> | that's the full text |
| 20:49 | <othermaciej> | otherwise one's eyes glaze over |
| 20:50 | <Hixie> | gsnedders: there are lots of others :-) |
| 20:50 | <Dashiva> | html5lib has an atheistParseError function |
| 20:50 | <Hixie> | othermaciej: yeah, that was my thought too |
| 20:50 | <gsnedders> | Hixie: I've seen plenty :) |
| 20:50 | <Hixie> | the css spec has some too |
| 20:50 | <Hixie> | 2.1 spec and selectors spec |
| 20:50 | <gsnedders> | Dashiva: how's that actually raised? |
| 20:50 | <gsnedders> | Tantek is the editor is those, right? |
| 20:51 | <Dashiva> | gsnedders: The error text is "This error is not an error", for what it's worth |
| 20:51 | <Dashiva> | Not error text, error comment |
| 20:51 | <gsnedders> | shouldn't it really be, "You cannot find the error until you accept the truth – there is no error." |
| 20:52 | <Dashiva> | And it is raised for the part you quoted earlier |
| 20:53 | <Hixie> | gsnedders: i'm one of the editors, tantek is too |
| 20:58 | <met_> | Hixie, the egg with gods lead to one whole article critisizing whole WHATWG effort (in czech, sorry), but based mainly on this sentence |
| 20:59 | <Dashiva> | Are we godless heathens trying to destroy society? |
| 20:59 | <met_> | shame many people folowed author opinion |
| 20:59 | <Hixie> | met_: hah |
| 20:59 | <met_> | here http://www.root.cz/clanky/akta-x-html-5-jako-alternativa-ke-xhtml/ but in czech |
| 21:00 | <Hixie> | should we drop togglePause()? |
| 21:00 | <Hixie> | met_: interesting, thanks |
| 21:00 | <met_> | they cited http://www.xml.com/pub/a/2007/01/10/is-xml-20-under-development.html mistaken that there is some nex XML 2.0 |
| 21:01 | <bewest> | hjmm? we discussing <video>? |
| 21:01 | <bewest> | what about the onend event? |
| 21:01 | <bewest> | (or lack thereof) |
| 21:01 | <Hixie> | i'm going through the latest feedback as we speak |
| 21:01 | <bewest> | oh ok |
| 21:01 | bewest | quiets down |
| 21:02 | <Hixie> | i sent mail about onend yesterday |
| 21:02 | <sayrer> | Hixie: othermaciej's thoughts on togglePause() seem accurate to me |
| 21:02 | <zcorpan_> | Hixie: i'd say yes (reasons are 5h ago in the irc logs) |
| 21:03 | <sayrer> | it is not that useful since you have to know the state to draw the ui |
| 21:03 | <Hixie> | sayrer: uri? |
| 21:03 | <Hixie> | sayrer: or do you mean those i replied to yesterday |
| 21:03 | <sayrer> | erm, in this channel yesterday or the day before |
| 21:03 | <sayrer> | I don't have time to read the WHATWG list lately, sorry |
| 21:03 | <Hixie> | heh ok |
| 21:03 | <Hixie> | just read my mails ;-) |
| 21:04 | <hsivonen> | too bad Google Translator does not support Czech. |
| 21:07 | <tylerr> | Hi there Hixie. I read your blog a day or two ago and have signed up for the working group. |
| 21:08 | <Hixie> | cool! |
| 21:09 | <tylerr> | I figure I sit around at work complaining about standards and semantics all day, why not do something about it if my work doesn't care (yet)? **smiles** |
| 21:09 | <zcorpan_> | met_: what does "Oba budou vždy existovat zároveň." mean? |
| 21:11 | <met_> | zcorpan_, "Both will exists simultaneously for ever" |
| 21:11 | <met_> | zcorpan_, and the question above was "Which language has better future." |
| 21:12 | <zcorpan_> | ok |
| 21:12 | <met_> | it was about 2 weeks before W3C puhlished HTML WG press release |
| 21:12 | <met_> | than I wrote other article http://www.root.cz/clanky/html-vracime-se-ke-korenum/ from other point of view (still in Czech 8-) |
| 21:12 | <tylerr> | When is the working group kicking off actual work and such? |
| 21:13 | zcorpan_ | votes for "Oba budou vždy existovat zároveň." :) |
| 21:13 | met_ | oks |
| 21:14 | <hsivonen> | tylerr: probably after Chris Wilson joins. and if not then, probably after XTech. (just guessing) |
| 21:14 | <bewest> | are they just waiting for chis wilson or others as well? |
| 21:14 | <tylerr> | Ah okay then hsivonen. Thanks. Gives me time to work on establishing my new blog. |
| 21:14 | <Hixie> | tylerr: the WHATWG has been working since about 2004, the W3C HTML WG will start in a few weeks |
| 21:15 | <Hixie> | tylerr: and this is the WHATWG channel :-) |
| 21:15 | <othermaciej> | bewest: at this point, it's mainly waiting for him, since he is co-chair, I don't think anyone would wait for MS just as a browser vendor at this point |
| 21:15 | <tylerr> | Righto Hixie. Does the W3C WG have a channel as of yet? |
| 21:15 | <tylerr> | I'd like to hop over to that one as well. |
| 21:16 | <Hixie> | i don't think so, but you could e-mail the list and ask |
| 21:16 | <othermaciej> | I don't think it does |
| 21:16 | <tylerr> | Lovely, that I shall! |
| 21:16 | <bewest> | othermaciej: yeah, that's what I thought |
| 21:21 | icaaq | (n=icaaaq⊙c2cbs) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) |
| 21:23 | briansuda | (n=briansud⊙dhi) Quit () |
| 21:26 | <Lachy> | oh gosh, I'd have thought Chris Wilson would have had more sense than to top-post and use Outlook :-( |
| 21:26 | <Lachy> | but then again, he is from MS |
| 21:29 | <Dashiva> | I must inform you I have an essential claim on complaining about Chris Wilsom top-posting |
| 21:29 | Dashiva | points a few hours back in logs |
| 21:30 | <sayrer> | lol |
| 21:33 | <zcorpan_> | http://forums.whatwg.org/viewtopic.php?t=15 |
| 21:34 | <zcorpan_> | why is the story always "X is broken, let's replace it with something else!" instead of "X is broken, let's fix it!"? |
| 21:34 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan_: because the implementation for something else won't have bugs |
| 21:34 | <zcorpan_> | oh right |
| 21:35 | <zcorpan_> | of course |
| 21:37 | ROBOd | (n=robod⊙8321) Quit ("http://www.robodesign.ro";) |
| 21:39 | <Hixie> | _that's_ what confused the hell out of me |
| 21:39 | <Hixie> | it's when people say "x is really badly implemented, so to fix this, we're going to invent a new thing y" and people seriously and truly assume that the implementation of y will be bug free |
| 21:39 | <Hixie> | you can see that even in dave ragget's cforms transitional spec |
| 21:39 | <Hixie> | xforms |
| 21:42 | <zcorpan_> | we should listen to vlad's feedback on contenteditable and see how we can address his concerns |
| 21:43 | <zcorpan_> | other than fixing browser bugs that is |
| 21:44 | <zcorpan_> | if any, all i've seen so far only has to do with browser bugs and contenteditable being presentational in its nature |
| 21:46 | <zcorpan_> | ideally, xstandard should be possible to implement using contenteditable |
| 21:55 | <Hixie> | yeah, if you can work out what we should change to make the spec better i'd love to fix contendeditable |
| 22:01 | hasather | (n=hasather⊙8ttc) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) |
| 22:01 | <othermaciej> | zcorpan_: depends on if things are broken by design or merely broken as implemented |
| 22:01 | <othermaciej> | I think contentEditable suffers mainly from being implemented differently (and buggily) in every browser, and in not having any kind of formal spec |
| 22:01 | <othermaciej> | but it does also have some level of design bogosity |
| 22:04 | <zcorpan_> | i don't know much about contenteditable, we should probably invite people using it to see how it can be improved |
| 22:04 | <Hixie> | contentEditable does have some level of formal spec in HTML5 |
| 22:06 | <Hixie> | zcorpan_: the status script is doing weird things :-) http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#designMode |
| 22:06 | <Hixie> | or http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#command |
| 22:07 | <Hixie> | looks like we'll need a UI to make the status file easy to edit now |
| 22:07 | <zcorpan_> | Hixie: it's not the script that doing weird things, it's just the xml file that's pointing to <dfn>s as opposed to <hX>s |
| 22:07 | <Hixie> | yeah |
| 22:07 | <zcorpan_> | i haven't looked in to how to make the xml file editable yet |
| 22:07 | <bewest> | the onautopaused trick might work for onended |
| 22:08 | <bewest> | although I'm not sure you can have too many events |
| 22:11 | <Hixie> | well if you want onended, then send a mail to the list describing the exact conditions under which you want it to fire |
| 22:11 | <Hixie> | (e.g. should it fire if you pause then seek to the end then hit play?) |
| 22:11 | <Hixie> | (how about if you seek to the end when it hasn't been buffered yet?) |
| 22:11 | <Hixie> | (how about if you seek to the end but the last frame isn't buffered, and it autopauses, then it downloads the frame?) |
| 22:20 | csarven | (n=nevrasc⊙m1mvc) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) |
| 22:22 | <zcorpan_> | not having too many events is a good way to reduce interop problems, i think... :) |
| 22:24 | <Hixie> | hinsofar as an event is a feature and having not too many features is a good way to reduce interop issues, yes :-) |
| 22:27 | <zcorpan_> | ah, i thought without src="" <video> would fall back. hmm. |
| 22:40 | kingryan | (n=kingryan⊙dsdsn) Quit () |
| 22:45 | <zcorpan_> | so <video> is more like <iframe> than <object> wrt fallback? it never falls back in uas that support <video> and has video enabled? |
| 22:45 | tylerr | looks around after taking a break to actually get some work done. |
| 22:46 | kingryan | (n=kingryan⊙dsdsn) Quit (Client Quit) |