| 03:20 | <Hixie> | anyone have examples of pages that have custom context menus? |
| 03:20 | <Hixie> | like google maps or live search maps |
| 04:29 | <gavin_> | the zimbra web ui uses custom context menus |
| 05:15 | <Hixie> | so anyone know what's up with anne's site? |
| 05:38 | Hixie | is more and more convinced that we should only allow integers for <img height/width> and they should match the image coordinates |
| 06:10 | <Hixie> | othermaciej: (in case you have any influence over the web gallery / iphoto / .mac folks, see http://gallery.mac.com/emily_parker#100335&bgcolor=black with stylesheets disabled) |
| 06:10 | <Hixie> | othermaciej: (that page is an example of why i don't like inlines-in-<div>s and style="" being considered 1st class citizens) |
| 06:11 | <othermaciej> | Hixie: I don't like the div soup design antipattern either |
| 06:11 | <othermaciej> | what iWeb generates is even worse |
| 06:11 | <Hixie> | in other news, <input type=image usemap="#..."> only seems to work in opera and firefox, not in safari and IE |
| 06:11 | <Hixie> | i wonder whether we should support it or not |
| 06:11 | <Hixie> | othermaciej: yikes |
| 06:12 | <othermaciej> | there output is full of, I kid you not, <div class="paragraph"> |
| 06:12 | <Hixie> | hah |
| 06:17 | <Hixie> | according to some old data I have, 17% of usemap="" attributes on <img> elements have the value "#Map" |
| 06:18 | <Hixie> | not original, but it works, i guess |
| 06:19 | <Hixie> | roughly 0.008% of <input type=image> elements have usemap="" attributes |
| 06:19 | <Hixie> | i wonder how many have useful values |
| 06:20 | <Hixie> | (it's less common than <input price="">, <input heigth="">, <input typ="">, <input enable="">, <input 1px="">, etc) |
| 06:22 | <othermaciej> | price=""? |
| 06:22 | <Hixie> | dunno |
| 06:22 | <Hixie> | (see topic) |
| 09:56 | <zcorpan> | "[ac] (1) Make id='' required on <map>. Let me know if that's a problem." |
| 09:56 | <zcorpan> | Hixie: i've suggested to use name="" instead |
| 09:58 | <zcorpan> | http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2007-April/010975.html |
| 11:07 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: fwiw, any time a common attribute becomes required on a particular element, it is an inconvenience for me. (though this probably isn't a reason not to require them, but anyway) |
| 11:07 | <annevk> | you shouldn't say that :) |
| 11:08 | <hsivonen> | annevk: say what? the part in parentheses or before? |
| 11:08 | <annevk> | the whole sentence |
| 11:09 | <annevk> | anyway, isn't it quite easy to add required attributes using RNG? |
| 11:10 | <hsivonen> | annevk: it sucks when you can't use common attributes but have to rebuild them on a per-element basis without the one you need to require and so that you can make the one required |
| 11:10 | <hsivonen> | annevk: this is why the grammar for bdo is ugly |
| 11:11 | <annevk> | oh, you can't override global stuff on a per element basis? |
| 11:11 | <annevk> | annoying |
| 11:11 | <hsivonen> | annevk: very |
| 11:12 | <annevk> | yeah, that actually sucks a lot given the amount of attributes we have now |
| 11:12 | <zcorpan> | hsivonen: would it help you if the attribute was called name instead of id? :) |
| 11:12 | <annevk> | :p |
| 11:12 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: yes :-) |
| 11:12 | <zcorpan> | well then :) |
| 11:12 | <annevk> | terrible |
| 11:13 | <hsivonen> | annevk: at least this is my recollection. there's a small chance that I am misremembering something or that my mind is clouded by the DTD compat extension |
| 11:19 | <hsivonen> | annevk: my recollection was correct. |
| 11:19 | <hsivonen> | http://validator.nu/?doc=http%3A%2F%2Fabout.validator.nu%2F&schema=http%3A%2F%2Fhsivonen.iki.fi%2Ftest%2Fduplicate-attr.rnc |
| 11:20 | <hsivonen> | that is, schemas that can derive duplicate attributes are forbidden. |
| 11:20 | <hsivonen> | this sucks pretty badly compared to embracing grammar ambiguity |
| 11:21 | <annevk> | you should raise this (and other issues with RNG) on some list so it can be improved |
| 11:22 | <hsivonen> | I suppose |
| 11:23 | <annevk> | i bet some geeks will find it interesting and fix it :) |
| 11:24 | <hsivonen> | actually, now that James Clark has moved on from hacking on Jing and RNG is an ISO standard, I'm pretty pessimistic when it comes to improving RNG |
| 11:30 | <annevk> | whoa, Elliotte Harold sort of turned around it seems :) |
| 11:30 | <hsivonen> | eww. the feedback mechanism for RNG is overlawyered |
| 11:30 | <annevk> | http://www-128.ibm.com/developerworks/library/x-html5/ |
| 11:32 | <hsivonen> | It totally sucks that these days the patent system is so sick that people don't want to hear from you until you jump through the hoops of a patent covenant |
| 11:33 | <hsivonen> | too much legal stuff to read for today if I wanted to use the official channel for saying something |
| 11:34 | <hsivonen> | I'm going to ping an unofficial channel first to see if there's a reason why the suggestion wouldn't work anyway |
| 11:47 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: btw, the same rationale that was used for allowing xmlns on root and /> could be used for allowing old-style meta charset syntax |
| 11:53 | <hsivonen> | whoa. Elliotte Harold (or a copy editor) takes the risk of taking a stand on what RSS abbreviates :-) |
| 12:27 | <zcorpan> | http://niquimerret.com/?p=94 |
| 12:32 | <zcorpan> | what's the use case for HTMLMapElement.images? |
| 12:33 | <annevk> | good question |
| 12:33 | <annevk> | I had one |
| 13:57 | <zcorpan> | "Each remaining area element in areas represents a hyperlink. Those hyperlinks should all be made available to the user in a manner associated with the text of the img or input element." -- why is this not a MUST? |
| 14:24 | <zcorpan> | wonder if we should support showing the <area> links when <object> is used and images are disabled |
| 14:25 | <met_> | https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=382267#c15 |
| 14:28 | <zcorpan> | <video> doesn't have fallback content in html5-aware UAs |
| 14:28 | <zcorpan> | alternative video formats are covered with <source> |
| 14:28 | <annevk> | the videostream itself needs to be accessible |
| 14:29 | <zcorpan> | yeah |
| 14:29 | <zcorpan> | non-video alternatives would have to be presented alongside the video |
| 14:29 | <zcorpan> | ("alternatives") |
| 14:33 | <annevk> | can someone tell me what the effect of <input type=image usemap> is? |
| 14:34 | annevk | goes to test it |
| 14:35 | <annevk> | it seems harmful |
| 14:35 | <zcorpan> | same as <img usemap> afaict (as long as it is actually associated with a map) |
| 14:36 | <annevk> | yeah, which makes no sense at all for a control |
| 14:36 | <zcorpan> | agreed |
| 14:36 | <annevk> | maybe to make particular areas unclickable? |
| 14:38 | <annevk> | i think i rather make <input> less bloated than catering for that silly usecase |
| 14:38 | <zcorpan> | ah, clicking outside an area will submit the form as normal |
| 15:03 | <annevk> | "I agree with Anne for once!" |
| 15:03 | annevk | ponders |
| 20:05 | <Wolfman2000> | I know that HTML 5 is only in a working draft right now, but does anyone know which browsers already support it? |
| 20:06 | <annevk> | http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Implementations_in_Web_browsers |
| 20:07 | <annevk> | maybe the WHATWG FAQ should point to that... |
| 20:07 | <Wolfman2000> | In other words, not a lot. |
| 20:10 | <annevk> | depending on how you look at it, sure |
| 20:11 | <annevk> | (that page doesn't list all the features from HTML4 that are also part of HTML5 it seems which are obviously implemented too) |
| 20:11 | <Wolfman2000> | The only tag that I see as implemented on that page is <canvas> |
| 20:18 | <Philip`> | If you're just counting tags, there's <event-source> too |
| 20:18 | <Philip`> | (and <video> if you count experimental implementations) |
| 21:38 | <Hixie> | hmm |
| 21:43 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: did you notice the accessibility comment on the Mozilla <video> bug? the spec is silent on captions |
| 21:45 | <Hixie> | uri? |
| 21:45 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=382267#c15 |
| 21:46 | Hixie | grumbles about people who think of accessibility as a separate concern from feature design |
| 21:46 | <Hixie> | it's like people who bolt on security afterwards |
| 21:46 | <hsivonen> | what browsers do people use for browsing the spec when they complain about locking? WFM in Firefox on OS X and in Opera on Maemo |
| 21:46 | <Hixie> | or who think "performance" is a separate module |
| 21:47 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: I'd expect Ogg <video> to use in-Ogg Writ captions. |
| 21:47 | <Hixie> | yeah, same with any video stream |
| 21:47 | <Hixie> | it's not an all-or-nothing deal |
| 21:47 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: but the spec is silent on how to enable/disable captions of pick a language in case of multiple subtitles, etc. |
| 21:53 | <Hixie> | hsivonen: isn't that a UA issue? |
| 21:53 | <Hixie> | if we rely on the page providing that, i predict many "inaccessible" pages |
| 21:54 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: good point. |
| 21:54 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: perhaps the spec should say this |
| 21:54 | <Hixie> | it will, in due course |
| 22:01 | <Hixie> | can anyone work out what chris meant in today's "RE: [whatwg] Where did the "rev" attribute go?" |
| 22:02 | annevk | skipped those e-mails |
| 22:03 | <annevk> | I guess he means that a hyphen "means" a space, but I'm not sure what the point is |
| 22:03 | <Hixie> | wow, usemap on <input type=image> is used |
| 22:03 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: looks like a case of getting semantics from reading the class name in English |
| 22:04 | <annevk> | Hixie, really? What's used for Internet Explorer? |
| 22:04 | <hsivonen> | someone really should write an article that explains why that is a fallacy |
| 22:04 | <Hixie> | i guess it just doesn't do anything in IE |
| 22:04 | <Hixie> | hsivonen: i didn't understand the e-mail at all |
| 22:07 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: I had a flashback of http://tantek.com/log/2002/08.html#L20020821t2114 again |
| 22:08 | <Hixie> | annevk: http://shop.divebooty.com/78.html is one example |
| 22:09 | <annevk> | Hixie, there is nothing matching "searchmap" (the usemap value) in that page though |
| 22:09 | <tantek> | hsivonen - heh |
| 22:10 | <Hixie> | annevk: it's right at the top |
| 22:12 | <annevk> | hmm, doesn't work in Opera if you click with a mouse, if you tab to it and hit enter it does... |
| 22:12 | <annevk> | removing the <map> makes the page work better in Opera... |
| 22:12 | <Hixie> | i love my new imap-fu |
| 22:13 | <Hixie> | annevk: i'm gonna get a more complete list of pages that actually have differences between IE and other browsers |
| 22:13 | <annevk> | this has differences |
| 22:13 | <annevk> | it works less good in Opera and Firefox |
| 22:13 | <Hixie> | yeah, but others in the list i got don't |
| 22:13 | <Hixie> | (don't have differences, i mean) |
| 22:14 | <Hixie> | so i need to get a better sample list |
| 22:14 | <annevk> | ok |
| 22:14 | <Hixie> | e.g. some have usemap="" pointing to non-existent maps |
| 22:14 | <annevk> | why does that not surprise me :) |
| 22:14 | <Hixie> | what surprises me is that some have usemap=""s pointing to actual maps! :-) |
| 22:20 | <annevk> | seems IE might be Unicode case-insensitive for ID values (related to <map> anyway, and at least for the character ë) |
| 22:20 | <Hixie> | ew |
| 22:21 | <annevk> | (same for name=) |
| 22:22 | <Hixie> | noted |
| 22:25 | <annevk> | seems the developerworks article initiated a few new blogposts |
| 22:28 | <Hixie> | hey anne what's the story with your site? |
| 22:28 | <Hixie> | did it change url? |
| 22:34 | <annevk> | not really |
| 22:34 | <annevk> | oh, you mean this XML5 thing? |
| 22:34 | <Hixie> | http://annevankesteren.nl/ hasn't responded for me for some time |
| 22:34 | <annevk> | oh ok |
| 22:35 | <annevk> | dunno, I've yet to switch it to dreamhost, which might not be better, but at least I get ssh access |
| 22:35 | <Hixie> | oh so it's just down? |
| 22:40 | <Philip`> | Is http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#audio0 likely to become more specific about numbers of channels and sample rates and bits per sample, or is it expected that people can support any crazy wave file? |
| 22:40 | <Hixie> | probably neither |
| 22:41 | <Hixie> | though once we have more implementation experience it might describe the common supported subset |
| 22:42 | <Hixie> | feel free to mail suggestions to the list for what it should require, though |
| 22:42 | <Hixie> | (the minimum supported subset) |