| 01:01 | <Hixie> | any opera people here? |
| 01:03 | <karlUshi> | which nationality? |
| 01:03 | <karlUshi> | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Opera_singers_by_nationality |
| 01:04 | <Hixie> | ... |
| 01:04 | <Hixie> | any opera software employees here? |
| 01:12 | <Dashiva> | Hixie: Temporarily, at least |
| 01:13 | <Hixie> | hey |
| 01:14 | <Hixie> | do you know what the offical Opera opinion is of moving postMessage from Document to Window? |
| 01:14 | <Hixie> | is it something you guys can do without breaking too much content? would you have to support both for a while? is that ok? |
| 01:17 | <Dashiva> | Let's see... |
| 01:18 | <Dashiva> | Last I heard it was "window might be nicer, but not breaking the API is probably better" |
| 01:20 | <Dashiva> | You'll have to poke anne (I think) for anything official |
| 01:20 | <Hixie> | ok |
| 01:20 | <Hixie> | thanks |
| 01:20 | <Hixie> | i think i'm gonna break the API, in case you can poke people internally about this to make them aware of it |
| 01:22 | <Dashiva> | I'll see what I can do. Not sure what the official Opera policy on shooting messengers is ;) |
| 01:22 | <Hixie> | :-) |
| 02:01 | <Hixie> | <!DOCTYPE html> a<ruby> b <rt>rt1</rt> <rt>rt2</rt> </ruby>c |
| 02:01 | <Hixie> | and |
| 02:01 | <Hixie> | <!DOCTYPE html> a<ruby> b <rt>rt1</rt><rt>rt2</rt> </ruby>c |
| 02:01 | <Hixie> | render very differently in IE |
| 02:01 | <Hixie> | grr |
| 02:11 | <karlUshi> | judt because of the space? |
| 02:12 | <karlUshi> | I think it would be a good opportunity to include Richard Ishida in the discussion. He's on the list. |
| 02:14 | <Hixie> | it's not really a ruby problem, ironically |
| 02:14 | <Hixie> | it's an IE parsing problem |
| 02:15 | <Hixie> | knowledge of ironically ruby doesn't really help with speccing what to do with parsing ruby :-( |
| 02:15 | <Hixie> | er |
| 02:15 | <Hixie> | knowledge of ruby ironically doesn't really help, even |
| 02:18 | <Hixie> | i wonder if we should make <ruby> a formatting element |
| 02:19 | <Hixie> | it's the only way i can see to handle <ruby>a<rt>b<p>c</ruby>d |
| 02:19 | <Hixie> | in a way that resembles IE |
| 02:19 | <Hixie> | though maybe the solution is to not resemble IE |
| 02:44 | <Lachy> | http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/library/x-html5/?ca=dgr-lnxw01NewHTML |
| 02:44 | <Lachy> | http://developers.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/08/08/1558225 |
| 03:14 | <karlUshi> | first comment "And here I was thinking that solved all of my web design problems. Now I might have to learn a second type of tag!" |
| 03:14 | <karlUshi> | :) |
| 03:29 | <deltab> | that comment as intended: "And here I was thinking that <pre> solved all of my web design problems. Now I might have to learn a second type of tag!" |
| 06:29 | <Hixie> | http://junkyard.damowmow.com/287 comes from the new study |
| 06:29 | <Hixie> | (about usemap) |
| 06:31 | <Hixie> | i think we can throw it out safely |
| 06:32 | <Hixie> | but if someone wants to look at how those pages use usemap="" on <input> to see if any of them use it in a way that matters, that'd be great |
| 08:11 | <Lachy> | Hixie, the first 6 results from that study don't use the map for anything useful at all. I don't expect to find any that do if I keep looking |
| 08:20 | <Hixie> | all the pages have an <input> with type=image with a usemap="" that points to a <map> with a name or ID that matches |
| 08:20 | <Hixie> | i didn't check if the <map> had <area> elements |
| 08:21 | <Hixie> | lachy: in what way were they useless? |
| 08:22 | <Hixie> | hm, gotta go (i'm amused that people randomly twitter single words on whatwg.org btw) |
| 08:22 | <Lachy> | some had no <area> elements, some had them without href attributes and others had <area ... href=""> or <area ... href="#"> |
| 08:39 | <annevk> | Hixie, we don't want to break the API I think |
| 08:40 | <annevk> | Hixie, there was this bug report you commented on relevant to that |
| 11:08 | <zcorpan> | http://simon.html5.org/test/html/semantics/image-maps/ 003..004 confirms that id/name with usemap is unicode case insensitive |
| 11:09 | <zcorpan> | in all 4 browsers |
| 11:09 | <zcorpan> | (except in xhtml in fx and saf, where it is case sensitive) |
| 11:11 | <zcorpan> | Hixie: ^ |
| 17:24 | <zcorpan> | Lachy: is http://lachy.id.au/dev/presentation/developing-with-html5/ announced anywhere? can it be added to the wiki? |
| 17:59 | <annevk> | http://www.prochoiceforum.org.uk/comm47.asp is another page which is worse in browsers that support <input usemap> |
| 18:00 | <Hixie> | hmm |
| 18:01 | <Hixie> | guess we'll remove it |
| 18:01 | <annevk> | http://www.soe.uwm.edu/pages/welcome/Certification_and_Degrees too |
| 18:01 | <annevk> | (if you click advanced search you go to the normal search page except that it doesn't submit any data you typed in) |
| 18:02 | <annevk> | although I think that site actually had the intention of making it useful |
| 18:03 | <annevk> | http://www.universaldizayn.com/irtibat.php login breaks in Opera and Firefox |
| 18:04 | <Hixie> | i'm gonna do the study again but only get pages that have <map>s with <area>s |
| 18:04 | <Hixie> | which themselves have both coords="" and href="" and their href="" isn't "" or "#" |
| 18:04 | <annevk> | these all had <area> |
| 18:04 | <annevk> | oh |
| 18:04 | <Hixie> | anything else i should filter out? |
| 18:05 | <annevk> | I just looked at those three so far |
| 18:05 | <annevk> | I already filed a bug for removal... |
| 18:05 | <Hixie> | yeah i'm pretty sure we want to remove it |
| 18:05 | <Hixie> | i just want to make sure |
| 18:16 | <annevk> | http://www.ljagri.gov.cn/nykj_syjs.asp also has the # problem |
| 18:17 | <Hixie> | yeah that one wouldn't be caught in the new survey i just launched |
| 18:20 | <annevk> | http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C%21DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0A%3Ciframe%20src%3Dhttp%3A//www.opera.com/%3E%3C/iframe%3E%0Axx%3Cscript%3E%20document.getElementsByTagName%28%22iframe%22%29%5B0%5D.contentDocument.location%20%3D%20%22http%3A//google.com%22%20%3C/script%3E |
| 18:20 | <annevk> | is one reason why postMessage might just as well stay on Document |
| 18:20 | <annevk> | oh, interesting, it only seems to work in Firefox |
| 18:20 | annevk | ponders |
| 18:21 | <Hixie> | yeah document shouldn't be accessible cross-origin |
| 18:21 | <annevk> | I thought they were the ones having issues with this document being accessible? |
| 18:21 | <annevk> | We'd like to keep postMessage() as is, if possible... |
| 18:21 | <Hixie> | no they were the ones who said that they had too many security problems |
| 18:21 | <Hixie> | oh? |
| 18:21 | <Hixie> | why? |
| 18:22 | <annevk> | see pm with link to internal bug report |
| 18:22 | <annevk> | basically, jl doesn't really see a good reason to break the API |
| 18:25 | <annevk> | btw, would be nice if Live DOM Viewer had something like $(id) and $$(tagname) in the global scope or something similarly named |
| 18:41 | <annevk> | oops, made a mistake |
| 18:41 | <annevk> | http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3Ciframe%20src%3Dhttp%3A//www.opera.com/%3E%3C/iframe%3E%3Cscript%3Eonload%3Dfunction%28%29%7Bdocument.getElementsByTagName%28%22iframe%22%29%5B0%5D.contentDocument.location%20%3D%20%22http%3A//google.com/%22%7D%3C/script%3E%20 |
| 18:41 | <annevk> | does make the redirect in Opera |
| 18:43 | <annevk> | lol, that variant throws an exception in Firefox |
| 18:44 | <zcorpan> | ie7 as well (when you change contentDocument to contentWindow.document) |
| 18:46 | <Lachy> | zcorpan: sure, you can add it to the wiki. I will be blogging about it shortly too |
| 18:56 | Hixie | slowly builds the most elaborate cross-domain attempt he has ever made |
| 18:57 | <zcorpan> | Lachy: done |
| 19:03 | <Hixie> | http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?<!DOCTYPE html><body onload%3D"setTimeout(test1%2C 100)%3B setTimeout(test2%2C 200)%3B">...<iframe src%3D"http%3A//labs.google.com"></iframe><script>function test1() {w('contentDocument%3A')%3Bvar y %3D document.getElementsByTagName('iframe')[0]%3Bw(y)%3Bw(y.contentDocument)%3Bw(y.contentDocument.write)%3By.contentDocument.write('test')%3B}</script><script>function test2() {w('contentWindow%3A')%3Bvar x %3D do |
| 19:03 | <Hixie> | (did that truncate?) |
| 19:03 | <Hixie> | anyway my conclusion is that only Opera lets you iterate over the Document, and only Firefox lets you access document.write() |
| 19:06 | <Hixie> | actually i can't even call document.write() in firefox |
| 19:08 | <Hixie> | wait that wasn't the right test |
| 19:10 | <Hixie> | annevk: i commented on the bug |
| 19:10 | <Hixie> | http://junkyard.damowmow.com/288 is my "testcase" |
| 19:25 | <Hixie> | i can't work out how to make <ruby> work |
| 19:26 | <Hixie> | specifically, the parsing of <ruby> in IE is not compatible with a non-tree DOM |
| 19:26 | <Hixie> | i wonder how much ruby is out there |
| 19:27 | <Hixie> | hm, not much |
| 19:27 | <Hixie> | it's not in the top 200 |
| 20:09 | <Hixie> | woot, my first official google blog post - http://google-code-updates.blogspot.com/2007/08/optimisation-data-for-html5-parser.html |
| 20:09 | <Hixie> | (also on code.google.com) |
| 21:16 | Hixie | launches a study of <ruby> parsing |
| 21:17 | <Hixie> | i don't understand how people wrote specs before |
| 21:18 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: have you taken a look at the ODF spec? |
| 21:18 | <Hixie> | no |
| 21:18 | <Hixie> | should i? |
| 21:18 | <hsivonen> | well, it certainly is very different from HTML 5. |
| 21:18 | <Hixie> | heh |
| 21:19 | Hixie | starts looking at adding URIs and titles to pushState() |
| 21:19 | <hsivonen> | it is basically a commentary on the schema |
| 21:19 | <Hixie> | eh, that's a pretty common way of writing specs |
| 21:19 | <Hixie> | HTML4 is pretty much that |
| 21:20 | <hsivonen> | not on that level |
| 21:20 | <Hixie> | scary |
| 21:22 | <hsivonen> | anyway, as far as spec writing goes, this processing model thing as well as error handling seem to be novel :-/ |
| 21:23 | <hsivonen> | OOXML has detail, but more like a DoS of detail. I haven't figured out yet, if it is useful and sufficient detail |
| 21:23 | <Hixie> | but how do you write a "version 2" without being able to study the existing content and examine the cowpaths? |
| 21:25 | <hsivonen> | you take the next version of MS Office and figure out what new data structures there are? :-) |
| 21:25 | <Hixie> | on another note, i have this small slice of the web that i use for testing my scripts before i run them on the real data, and every time i do a test run over that data my parser skips over these same pages, which it outputs the url of to the console |
| 21:25 | <Hixie> | one of them is http://www.online-dating-facts.net/ |
| 21:26 | <Hixie> | which has so many copies of "<b>Warning</b>: feof(): supplied argument is not a valid stream resource in <b>/home/online/public_html/inc/articles.inc</b> on line <b>4</b><br />" that my script runs out of bits to store elements in |
| 21:27 | <Hixie> | it may in fact be an infinite page, i can't quite tell |
| 21:27 | <Hixie> | i don't think i've ever reached the end of it |
| 21:27 | <Hixie> | (my test data file has a truncated copy of it) |
| 21:29 | <Hixie> | anyone have an opinion on whether pushState() should always require a URI or whether we should continue to allow state to be included without a URI? |
| 21:45 | <KevinMarks> | Afternoon |
| 21:46 | <KevinMarks> | having a bit fo trouble following the rel="bookmark" stuff |
| 21:46 | <KevinMarks> | http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#link-type2 |
| 21:47 | <Hixie> | what don't you follow? |
| 21:50 | <KevinMarks> | the implications of sections - if there are no <article> elements, the rel="bookmark" only applies to a subset fo the document? |
| 21:51 | <KevinMarks> | or can the bookmark link apply to the whole page? |
| 21:52 | <KevinMarks> | concrete example, go to google maps, and do a search. The 'link to this page' url has rel="bookmark" on it, which is intended to mean 'use this for the page permalink, not the top url as the content changed" |
| 21:52 | <Hixie> | it applies to the nearest <article>, or if there are no such ancestors, to the nearest <body>, <section>, <nav>, <blockquote>, or <aside> element |
| 21:53 | <Hixie> | whichever comes first |
| 21:55 | <KevinMarks> | that 'section' discovery is tricky |
| 21:55 | <Hixie> | you mean working out which element is a section? |
| 21:57 | <KevinMarks> | what seems 'natural' to me is to flood-fill outwards from each rel="bookmark" link until you hit another's boundary |
| 21:58 | <KevinMarks> | is the intent of that code to not 'leak' out from the subsections to the filler? |
| 21:59 | <Hixie> | i don't recall what the thinking was |
| 21:59 | <Hixie> | i think it was to make it possible to mark blog posts primarily |
| 21:59 | <KevinMarks> | right |
| 21:59 | <Hixie> | and then when you're not doing a post, to mark sections and stuff |
| 22:00 | <Hixie> | but maybe we should drop that altogether |
| 22:00 | <Hixie> | and make it the nearest <article> or <body> |
| 22:00 | <KevinMarks> | no, broadly it makes sense |
| 22:00 | <Hixie> | i'm not sure i really see the point of permalinking to a section really |
| 22:00 | <Hixie> | i recommend sending feedback to the list (whatwg⊙wo) or me (ian⊙hc) so i look at it more closely, if you want it changed at all |
| 22:00 | <KevinMarks> | it is a huge usecase in blogs |
| 22:01 | <Hixie> | certainly <article> should definitely scope permalinks |
| 22:01 | <Hixie> | i'm talking mainly about <section> et al |
| 22:01 | <KevinMarks> | it's the independence of the sction parsing and the bookmark linking that confuses me a bit |
| 22:01 | <Hixie> | i don't see a real use case to scope to them |
| 22:01 | <Hixie> | i don't understand what you mean by "section parsing" |
| 22:02 | <KevinMarks> | http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#outlines |
| 22:02 | <Hixie> | oh outlining |
| 22:03 | <KevinMarks> | wondering if anyone has implemented that yet - is that part of Sam's html5lib? |
| 22:03 | <Hixie> | i don't know of any implementation work short of the small script in the spec itself |
| 22:04 | <KevinMarks> | OK, thanks |
| 23:20 | <Hixie> | preliminary results suggest we can get away with making <ruby> parse like phrasing elements! sweet |
| 23:20 | <Hixie> | let's hope it's representative |
| 23:29 | <Hixie> | Ok I can only find about 500 sites (about 12000 pages) that use usemap="" on <input> in a way involving <area> elements that have actual href=""s with possibly useful values |
| 23:43 | <Hixie> | continuing the usemap=" saga -- http://junkyard.damowmow.com/289 is the new survey data |
| 23:43 | <Hixie> | in case people want to look at them |