| 09:42 | <hendry> | is there a status page of what/when browser support input types like email, datetime etc? |
| 10:05 | <Lachy> | hendry, Opera has support for for those |
| 10:12 | <hendry> | Lachy: what about other browsers like gecko, webkit? is there some sort of ETA for those? |
| 10:15 | <webben> | hendry: A first port of call would be the bugzillas for both I guess. |
| 10:15 | <webben> | iirc webkit has some sort of type="range" implementation |
| 10:16 | <webben> | (whether it's actually complete ... e.g. can you adjust the slider with the keyboard?) I don't know |
| 10:19 | <hendry> | what about support for IE with JS? what's the status with that i wonder |
| 10:24 | <Philip`> | (WebKit range was integer-only when I last tried, which made my 0->1 slider a bit useless :-( ) |
| 18:24 | <Philip`> | If I wanted to use GLSL fragment/vertex programs (i.e. an ASCII-only C-like language, for 3D graphics stuff) on the web, what would be a sensible MIME type? |
| 18:25 | <Philip`> | I'm guessing something like .../x-glsl-fp and .../x-glsl-vp but have no idea if it's text/... or application/... or what and don't know where to find that out |
| 18:25 | <Hixie> | if it's a plain text format, use text/ |
| 18:25 | <Hixie> | you'll have people complain that you should use application/, but they're just silly |
| 18:26 | <Philip`> | (The Mozilla canvas3d examples use x-shader/x-vertex and x-shader/v-fragment which look kind of crazy to me) |
| 18:26 | <Philip`> | (Uh, I meant x-shader/x-fragment) |
| 18:27 | <Dashiva> | Isn't using an x- on the major part even more frowned upon? |
| 18:28 | <Hixie> | yes |
| 18:29 | <Philip`> | Apparently "The source character set used for the OpenGL shading languages is a subset of ASCII." so it's plain text in that sense, though not in the humans-can-read-the-plain-text-and-understand-it-fully sense |
| 18:30 | <Hixie> | is it meant to be human editable? |
| 18:30 | <Philip`> | Yes |
| 18:30 | <Hixie> | then use text/ |
| 18:30 | <Philip`> | Okay - sounds plausible, so I'll try that :-) |
| 18:32 | Philip` | tries to work out whether they're called fragment programs or fragment shaders or pixel shaders |
| 19:42 | <Hixie> | so the html5 spec is about 500 pages |
| 19:42 | <Hixie> | and we've been working on it for about 3 years |
| 19:42 | <hsivonen> | hendry: if you do find good reusable HTML5 presentation demo materials, please let me know. I've agreed to speak about HTML5 on 3th of December |
| 19:42 | <Hixie> | i've been working on it at about 40 hours a week for that time |
| 19:42 | <Hixie> | so that's about 12 hours per page |
| 19:42 | <Hixie> | hsivonen: there's some stuff on hte wiki |
| 19:42 | <Hixie> | hsivonen: who are you talking to? |
| 19:44 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: the event is organized by the student association of the CS dept. at University of Helsinki. The invitations go out to Finnish Unix Users' Group and Finnish Linux Users' Group as well |
| 19:45 | <Hixie> | nice |
| 19:45 | <hsivonen> | whoa. I actually type 3th instead of 3rd. scary |
| 19:46 | <Hixie> | heh |
| 19:47 | <Hixie> | i didn't even notice |
| 19:47 | <Hixie> | so the glyphs i'm missing are U+525B U+5FD7 U+6FA4 U+9ED2 U+C11D U+C724 U+CC2C U+FE6A U+FF05 |
| 19:47 | <Philip`> | (Hooray, there's a randomly-coloured 3D monkey head in my web browser) |
| 19:47 | <Hixie> | if anyone has any fonts i could use that contain those glyphs, please let me know |
| 19:47 | <Hixie> | so i can add them to the html5 print pipeline |
| 19:47 | <Hixie> | Philip`: heh |
| 19:48 | <hsivonen> | hendry blogged about free CJK fonts a while ago |
| 19:49 | Hixie | adds h2 { page-break-before: always } |
| 19:49 | <Hixie> | hsivonen: oo, interesting |
| 19:49 | <Hixie> | http://natalian.org/archives/2007/05/31/chinese-font/ ? |
| 19:49 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: yeah. no answer there, though :-( |
| 19:50 | <Hixie> | :-( |
| 19:57 | <Hixie> | U+525B U+5FD7 U+6FA4 U+9ED2 U+C11D U+C724 and U+CC2C aren't in my nameslist.txt |
| 19:57 | Hixie | goes to update it |
| 19:58 | <Lachy> | Hey, can someone review an article for me? It's that one for a list apart I've been working on for a while, it's finally finished. Just got to prepare it for publishing |
| 20:01 | <Hixie> | Lachy: i'm about to go out for a bit, but feel free to msg me the link and i'll look at it when i get back |
| 20:01 | <Lachy> | http://lachy.id.au/temp/Developing%20with%20HTML5%20ALA.doc |
| 20:01 | <Hixie> | (wtf. i updated both NamesList.txt and Unihan.txt, and I still can't find these characters. are they fictional? or in a special range or something...) |
| 20:01 | <Lachy> | I'll convert it to HTML shortly |
| 20:03 | <Hixie> | ah, i see my problem: |
| 20:03 | <Hixie> | # XXX should also search Unihan and Hangul |
| 20:03 | <Hixie> | sigh |
| 20:03 | <Hixie> | ok |
| 20:03 | <Hixie> | well i'm off to get food, will be back in a bit. |
| 20:11 | <Lachy> | Hixie, btw, the images in the article will be modified to switch the article and section elements, based on your earlier feedback about 2 months ago |
| 20:31 | <hendry> | Hixie: the irc channel #dejavu has some font experts |
| 20:35 | <hendry> | dejavu sans doesn't have any CJK support... /usr/share/doc/ttf-dejavu/status.txt.gz sigh |
| 20:50 | <aroben> | Lachy: your second figure doesn't show the <div id='content'> element |
| 20:57 | <Lachy> | aroben, see my previous comment about the images getting fixed |
| 20:58 | <aroben> | Lachy: must have missed it, sorry |
| 21:10 | <Hixie> | Lachy: back, if you have the html version |
| 21:10 | <Lachy> | sorry, not yet |
| 21:11 | <Lachy> | can you read word docs? |
| 21:11 | <Hixie> | sure |
| 21:11 | <Lachy> | ok, cool |
| 21:13 | <Hixie> | oh btw (unrelated to your article) it seems the xhtml2wg is going ahead with their repositioning, they now define themselves as an authoring format, not a web format |
| 21:13 | <Hixie> | as far as i can tell |
| 21:16 | <Lachy> | Hixie, where have they said that? on the mailing list? |
| 21:16 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: where can I read about that? |
| 21:17 | <Hixie> | (html4all gives me a Bandwidth Limit Exceeded?) |
| 21:17 | <Lachy> | Hixie, yeah, that happened yesterday. They're aware of it |
| 21:17 | <Hixie> | http://www.w3.org/2007/11/14-xhtml-minutes (search for 'authoring') |
| 21:17 | <Hixie> | also http://www.w3.org/2007/11/08-xhtml-minutes |
| 21:17 | <Hixie> | and http://www.w3.org/2007/11/09-xhtml-minutes |
| 21:45 | <Philip`> | (Oh, the Blender X3D exporter doesn't even work correctly when I make a monkey and a cube, so it's not just my code that's broken) |
| 22:29 | <aroben> | Lachy: there's at least one instance of "dependent" where you meant "dependant" |
| 22:32 | <aroben> | Lachy: the items in the "Benefits of Using the {HTML,XML} Serialisation" are not all parallel constructs |
| 22:32 | <aroben> | Lachy: some are sentences, some are sentence fragments, etc. |
| 22:32 | <aroben> | Lachy: it would be nice to make them all the same |
| 22:33 | <alp> | aroben: 'dependent' is a far more common usage than 'dependant' |
| 22:34 | <Philip`> | http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/x3d.png - how totally exciting |
| 22:34 | <aroben> | alp: hm, I guess you're right |
| 22:34 | <aroben> | Lachy: ignore the "depdendent" comment |
| 22:34 | <aroben> | Philip`: what's that? |
| 22:34 | <alp> | vlad's 3d canvas stuff? |
| 22:35 | <aroben> | brb |
| 22:36 | <Philip`> | aroben: What alp said |
| 22:36 | <Philip`> | Oops, too late |
| 22:36 | <Philip`> | (Rendering X3D content in particular, because I want to get a better idea of why browsers shouldn't implement X3D natively) |
| 22:44 | <Hixie> | Lachy: the article seems pretty good to me |
| 22:48 | <Philip`> | aroben: What alp said |
| 22:48 | <aroben> | Philip`: neat |
| 22:48 | <Philip`> | (Rendering X3D content in particular, because I want to get a better idea of why browsers shouldn't implement X3D natively) |
| 22:49 | <Lachy> | aroben, thanks |
| 22:49 | <aroben> | Lachy: I like the article |
| 22:49 | <aroben> | Lachy: and it'll be nice to have it published in such a visible place |
| 22:49 | <aroben> | (visible to web developers, anyway) |
| 22:51 | Philip` | needs to add some lighting and stuff, then add an opera-3d renderer to show how useless opera-3d is :-p |
| 22:52 | <othermaciej> | Does Mozilla's 3d canvas stuff use OpenGL? |
| 22:53 | <Philip`> | othermaciej: Yes |
| 22:53 | <Philip`> | (The API is OpenGL ES, so it's a subset of OpenGL, and it's currently implemented using OpenGL) |
| 22:53 | <othermaciej> | does that mean you can't alpha-composite things over it? Or does it just turn off hardware acceleration in that case? |
| 22:54 | <othermaciej> | actually, I guess it must be rendering to a backing store anyway just to draw over normal canvas stuff |
| 22:54 | <othermaciej> | so likely not fully accelerated all the way to the screen |
| 22:55 | <alp> | othermaciej: it used to use glitz to render the graphics context to gl as well, iirc. don't know if it still does |
| 22:55 | <Lachy> | when did Mozilla add 3d canvas? |
| 22:56 | <Philip`> | othermaciej: I can put a translucent <div> over the 3d canvas and it all looks properly blended |
| 22:56 | <Lachy> | is it compatible with Opera's 3D canvas? |
| 22:56 | <Philip`> | Lachy: It's currently just an unreleased extension |
| 22:56 | <Lachy> | ok |
| 22:56 | <othermaciej> | I don't think it's compatible |
| 22:56 | <Lachy> | so looks like we really need to get this standardised soon |
| 22:57 | <othermaciej> | and I think its existence as an extension predates Opera's API |
| 22:57 | <Philip`> | It's totally different to Opera's |
| 22:57 | <Lachy> | Philip`, which one do you think is better from an authoring perspective? |
| 22:57 | <othermaciej> | my understanding is that Mozilla's is very low-level, pretty close to the actual OpenGL API |
| 22:58 | <Philip`> | Someone said Opera "implemented 3D Canvas 2-3 years ago" though I don't know how much they've changed since then |
| 22:58 | <aroben> | http://my.opera.com/timjoh/blog/2007/11/13/taking-the-canvas-to-another-dimension has some of the motivation behind Opera's API |
| 22:59 | <Philip`> | Lachy: Opera's one is easier to use if you're programming straight to the API and not using any helper libraries, except it barely has any features (e.g. you can't do dynamic lighting) and it would need some redesigning in order to support those features |
| 22:59 | <othermaciej> | it seems like if you want things like collision detection you might also want an API model with a fully retained scene graph |
| 23:00 | <Philip`> | I'd prefer to implement high-level scene graph things in JS, and have the browser provide just a low-level rendering API |
| 23:00 | <Philip`> | (hence me trying to implement X3D in JS to see if that's feasible) |
| 23:01 | <othermaciej> | is X3D a sensible spec? |
| 23:01 | <othermaciej> | I don't really know how it works |
| 23:02 | <othermaciej> | does it natively provide for things like collision detection, or embedding foreign markup as a texture and still being able to hit test it? |
| 23:03 | <othermaciej> | I gotta reboot |
| 23:03 | <Philip`> | I've only looked at small bits of X3D, and it seems far from perfect but not totally useless |
| 23:03 | <othermaciej> | back soon |
| 23:03 | <Philip`> | It has Collision sensors which can send events to make stuff happen |
| 23:04 | <Philip`> | X3D is full of undefined behaviour so I don't think browsers could reasonably implement it |
