| 00:42 | Lachy | waves from Australia |
| 00:43 | <Lachy> | It's good to be back in a normal country with Vegemite, Cottees Cordial and Tim Tams :-) |
| 00:47 | <eric_carlson> | Hixie: ping |
| 00:47 | <Hixie> | hi |
| 00:47 | <eric_carlson> | Hey. I have a question about firing media events |
| 00:48 | <eric_carlson> | the spec clearly says that some should fire synchronously, eg. "must synchronously fire a progress event called loadstart" (4.8.10.4) |
| 00:48 | <eric_carlson> | and others are clearly asynchronous, eg. "must queue a task to fire a simple event called play" (4.8.10.7) |
| 00:48 | <eric_carlson> | but the descriptions in the section on ready states (4.8.10.6) are somewhat ambiguous |
| 00:48 | <eric_carlson> | eg. "and fire a simple event called play" |
| 00:49 | <eric_carlson> | (even though "canshowcurrentframe" and "play" are explicitly asynchronous elsewhere) |
| 00:49 | <eric_carlson> | so are the ready state change events fired differently from others? |
| 00:50 | <Hixie> | "fire a simple event" is synchronous, but that doesn't preclude an error in the spec :-) |
| 00:50 | <Hixie> | i should probably remove th word "synchronously" from the spec so that it doesn |
| 00:50 | <Hixie> | 't confuse people when i omit it |
| 00:51 | <eric_carlson> | OK, thanks. |
| 00:52 | <Hixie> | wait, hold on |
| 00:52 | <Hixie> | it has to be asynchronous for those |
| 00:52 | <Hixie> | there's nothing to be synchronous with |
| 00:52 | <eric_carlson> | good, that's what I was about to argue. |
| 00:52 | <eric_carlson> | now I don't need to bother ;) |
| 00:53 | <Hixie> | i'll file a bug saying that these should be fixed to say that a task should be queued to fire the events |
| 01:01 | <eric_carlson> | that was quick. thanks! |
| 01:03 | <Lachy> | LOL, someone pretending to be Hixie is posting spam to the whatwg blog :-) |
| 01:04 | <Lachy> | (unless Hixie really was posting about eugenics and nazis, but I doubt it) |
| 01:12 | <Hixie> | ooo |
| 01:12 | <Hixie> | where |
| 01:12 | <Hixie> | where |
| 01:15 | <Lachy> | Hixie, it was in the moderation queue, I already marked it as spam |
| 01:15 | <Lachy> | but you wrote: "The biggest problem I see with supporting eugenics is the bad name it has aquired, through being associated with the Nazi movement, for instance. I'll leave that problem up to the PR folk to solve." -- ian hickson http://ln.hixie.ch/?start=1023585606&count=1 |
| 01:16 | <Lachy> | Looks like it's a quote from that blog entry |
| 01:16 | <Lachy> | so you *really* were writing about eugenics and nazis :-) |
| 01:18 | <Hixie> | yup that's an accurate quote |
| 01:19 | <annevk2> | someone posted that on my blog too iirc |
| 01:19 | annevk2 | let it through though |
| 01:19 | <Hixie> | yeah doesn't seem like spam |
| 01:19 | <annevk2> | http://annevankesteren.nl/2008/09/re-two-thousand-twenty-two#comment-6629 |
| 01:20 | <Hixie> | i wonder what the relevance of that quote is |
| 01:21 | <Lachy> | considering it was posted twice and whoever posted it didn't use Hixie's email address, I figured it had to be spam of some kind. |
| 01:21 | <annevk2> | maybe about letting PR folks solve the problem, just like with 2022? |
| 01:23 | <Lachy> | hmm, I'm trying to figure out what I should go do this weekend while I'm on the Gold Coast |
| 01:23 | <Hixie> | annevk2: heh |
| 01:23 | <Hixie> | Lachy: check e-mail :-) |
| 01:25 | Lachy | checks... |
| 01:25 | <Lachy> | nothing yet. |
| 01:26 | <Lachy> | Hixie, did you send me something, or is that a suggestino for what I should spend my weekend doing? |
| 01:26 | <Hixie> | the latter |
| 01:26 | <Lachy> | oh, LOL |
| 01:35 | <annevk2> | checking e-mail during the weekend is sort of a waste of time I found out |
| 01:35 | <annevk2> | there isn't many |
| 01:35 | annevk2 | suggests organizing parties |
| 01:39 | <Hixie> | heh |
| 01:48 | <takkaria> | my life as a vegan got much better today: I found a spread that I like, and I found that the local supermarket sell vegan icecream |
| 01:49 | <takkaria> | I'm not sure why this warrants mentioning here of all places, but so it goes :) |
| 02:07 | <eric_carlson> | Hixie: a minor typo in "4.8.10.8. Seeking" |
| 02:08 | <eric_carlson> | step 9 says: "The user agent must queue a task to queue a task to..." |
| 02:08 | <eric_carlson> | probably don't need both of those "queue a task" |
| 02:09 | <Hixie> | thanks |
| 02:09 | <eric_carlson> | sure |
| 02:18 | Philip` | discovers that it is quite cold out at 2am, but streetlights make the mist look pretty |
| 02:46 | Hixie | tries to get postMessage working in IE in a spec-compliant way |
| 02:48 | <othermaciej> | good luck! |
| 02:54 | Hixie | tries to get postMessage working in any browser in a spec-compliant way |
| 03:01 | <Hixie> | i wish webkit wouldn't complain about favicon.ico files being sent as text/html |
| 03:01 | <Hixie> | i didn't ask you to fetch favicon.ico |
| 03:01 | <Hixie> | there is no favicon.ico |
| 03:01 | <Hixie> | what you got back was a 404 and it had the right mime type |
| 03:01 | <othermaciej> | where does it complain? |
| 03:01 | <Hixie> | console |
| 03:01 | <Hixie> | Resource interpreted as image but transferred with MIME type text/html. favicon.ico |
| 03:02 | <othermaciej> | it probably should not complain in the case where it just asked for the default icon url and got back a 404 |
| 03:03 | <Hixie> | well the funny thing is that if you do send the 404 as an image, it doesn't even use it |
| 03:03 | <Hixie> | so the message, not only is it a bug, it's also a lie |
| 03:03 | <Hixie> | the resource wasn't interpreted as an image |
| 03:04 | <Hixie> | hey how do you inspect the inside of an iframe? |
| 03:05 | <othermaciej> | in the latest WebKit you can see the DOM for the iframe under the frame element |
| 03:05 | <othermaciej> | or at least I seem to recall that being done |
| 03:06 | <Hixie> | doesn't seem to be the case |
| 03:06 | <Hixie> | and i believe i'm using last night's nightly |
| 03:07 | <othermaciej> | let me check |
| 03:07 | <othermaciej> | actually, let me ask the expert |
| 03:08 | <othermaciej> | Hixie: hmmm on tivofaq.com I see the document DOM under the <frame> element |
| 03:08 | <othermaciej> | (document node not represented, but the doctype and then the <html> element are there) |
| 03:51 | <Hixie> | opera doesn't support e.origin? |
| 03:53 | <Hixie> | oh it still has e.uri |
| 03:53 | <Hixie> | ok well i guess i won't demo opera for this part |
| 07:34 | Hixie | finds more bugs in IE's implementation of HTML5 stuff |
| 07:34 | <Hixie> | localStorage.getItem(...) return undefined instead of null for unknown stuff |
| 07:41 | <Hixie> | this is going well, i think i might pull this off. |
| 07:41 | Hixie | is trying to give a presentation about html5 made of purely demos with no future tense anywhere in the presentation |
| 11:14 | <Hixie> | http://www.whatwg.org/demos/2008-sept/color/color.html is trippy, especially in webkit |
| 11:14 | <Hixie> | (url will be dead in a few minute) |
| 11:24 | <annevk2> | cool demo |
| 11:24 | annevk2 | makes a copy |
| 11:31 | <hsivonen> | Did Richard Maher's email contain a technical argument why Web Socket is "bollocks"? |
| 11:34 | <Hixie> | no idea |
| 11:34 | <Hixie> | nn |
| 11:37 | <jruderman> | darn, i missed the demo |
| 13:19 | <jgraham> | hsivonen: AFAICT the closest to a technical argument was "it's not unfettered access to sockets" |
| 13:21 | <hsivonen> | jgraham: ok. but that's the whole point of the design |
| 13:21 | <jgraham> | hsivonen: Possibly explaining that to him would work. Possibly not |
| 13:22 | <Philip`> | How does the "existing Socket support from SUN Java, Adobe Flex, and Microsoft Silverlight" handle security? |
| 13:22 | <hsivonen> | jgraham: the email didn't make it clear why it's bad to restrict stuff like this |
| 13:22 | <Philip`> | hsivonen: It seems obvious that it's bad because it's incompatible with how the rest of the world does sockets |
| 13:23 | <jgraham> | Philip`: OTOH he didn't present any use cases that require real sockets rather than WebSockets |
| 13:23 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: I want to write an HTTP client. |
| 13:23 | <gsnedders> | (that would be kinda awesome to do) |
| 13:24 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: that would be kinda stupid |
| 13:24 | <Philip`> | jgraham: That's because they're obvious :-) |
| 13:24 | <hsivonen> | Philip`: according to Sun's FAQ, it seems that Java applets can open sockets to the host of origin |
| 13:24 | <gsnedders> | Then you know exactly how the HTTP client behaves :P |
| 13:24 | <hsivonen> | which is *bad* in the context of virtual hosts |
| 13:25 | <hsivonen> | I didn't actually test anything |
| 13:25 | <Philip`> | ("I have an existing socket-based service that does <var>X</var>, and I want to access it directly over the web" for any value of X) |
| 13:25 | <Philip`> | s/over the web/from a web browser/ |
| 13:26 | <jgraham> | Philip`: As you well know there is a problem when X is "sends email" and similar |
| 13:26 | <gsnedders> | Time to try re-writing my personal statement |
| 13:26 | gsnedders | sighs |
| 13:34 | <Philip`> | jgraham: Indeed - it doesn't seem like that general class of use cases is solvable |
| 13:34 | <jgraham> | Do any browsers have WebSockets implementations yet? |
| 13:35 | jgraham | is composing a brief reply |
| 13:37 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: no |
| 13:54 | <gsnedders> | Writing a personal statement is ahrd. |
| 13:54 | <gsnedders> | *hard |
| 13:57 | <gsnedders> | "I am a sixth year pupil at Madras College, currently doing four Advanced Highers: computing, English, mathematics, and physics. I would like to study either computer science or physics because…" — does that seem a sane start? |
| 14:02 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: It sounds saner. |
| 14:02 | jgraham | can't remember what he put on his personal statement |
| 14:03 | <jgraham> | I guess there might be a copy of it somewhere but I have no idea where that would be. Probably an old floppy disk that has long since died |
| 17:27 | <jgraham> | gsnedders - well if it's executing circular motion mv^2/r = GMm/r**2 so E_k = GMm/(2r) |
| 17:29 | gsnedders | wonders where that is in his notes |
| 17:29 | <gsnedders> | (probably answer: somewhere) |
| 17:42 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: I would hope its under the heading "circular motion" or somesuch |
| 17:42 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: Angular Motion, somewhere, I expect |
| 17:49 | <gsnedders> | OK, I just did a rather bad drawing of the gravitational fields of the Earth and Moon |
| 18:28 | <Philip`> | jgraham: To hyphenate a single instance of a word, it's easier to write "foo\-bar" to give a hyphenation hint |
| 18:38 | <jgraham> | Philip`: I guess in this case there's no harm in having Brehmsstrahlung hyphenated in other places too |
| 18:44 | <jgraham> | (but thanks) |
| 19:07 | Philip` | sees that Silverlight has its own clientaccesspolicy.xml file to enable socket communication with the host |
| 19:08 | <Philip`> | (It supports Flash's crossdomain.xml for some features but not sockets) |
| 19:08 | <Philip`> | (according to http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/cc645032(VS.95).aspx ) |
| 19:18 | <Hixie> | policy files are such a bad design |
| 19:18 | <Hixie> | crossdomain.xml showed that |
| 19:29 | <Philip`> | Presumably it didn't show it to a sufficient extent to stop people from thinking it's a good idea |
| 19:41 | <Hixie> | i wish there was a way to pause vmware without suspending it (which takes a lot of time) |
| 19:43 | <gsnedders> | I wish there was a way to not do homework (which takes a lot of time) |
| 19:44 | <gsnedders> | But it does have the use of keeping my mind off what would otherwise worry me |
| 19:52 | Hixie | sends a sig 17 to the vmware process |
| 19:52 | <Hixie> | that worked |
| 20:07 | jgraham | suggests adding the text "semantic in html have largely failed. If you find yourself having an argument about element semantics, it is possible that you should consider instead getting a hobby" to the HTML 5 text |
| 20:08 | <Hixie> | heh |
| 20:08 | <Hixie> | but this IS my hobby! |
| 20:09 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: Can doing homework please _NOT_ be my hobby? *puppy-eyes* |
| 20:12 | <jgraham> | Hixie: Sadly it seems to be my hobby too :( |
| 20:14 | <Hixie> | holy crap, ie8 beta 2 actually managed to _break_ the rendering of acid3's _reference rendering_ |
| 20:14 | <jgraham> | But I don't endorse long lilliputian arguments about whether it is proper to use <var> for variables that are constant or just variables that are variable |
| 20:14 | <jcranmer> | Hixie: it's so that it can match the reference rendering ;-) |
| 20:15 | <Hixie> | it actually makes the reference rendering look even less like the test |
| 20:16 | <jgraham> | Impressive application of gun to foot there |
| 20:29 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: Ah, it's given as $\frac{1}{2}I\omega^2$ |
| 20:30 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: (i.e., relative to the moment of inertia) |
| 20:32 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: FWIW the result that in a 1/r**2 potential E_k = -E_p/2 is called the virial theroem |
| 20:33 | <jgraham> | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virial_theorem |
| 20:33 | gsnedders | is probably too tired to comprehend this |
| 20:36 | gsnedders | gives up on the one question he can't do |
| 20:36 | gsnedders | hopes he hasn't got any other homework due tomorrow |
| 22:13 | <gsnedders> | http://www.flickr.com/photos/gsnedders/2876109667/in/set-72157607417932255/ |
| 22:13 | <gsnedders> | Kinda impressive. |
| 22:20 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: Not as impressive as invisible green hair :) |
| 22:25 | <annevk2> | lol: http://webkit.org/blog-files/animation-demo.svg |
| 22:29 | <jgraham> | annevk2: Hmm Opera seems to use quite a lot of CPU running that |
| 22:33 | <Hixie> | there's irony to using that logo without any script |
| 22:34 | <hsivonen> | oh joy. Sun adds crossdomain.xml support to Java applet networking |
| 22:41 | <aboodman> | Hixie - any updates on workers? |
| 22:42 | <aboodman> | i didn't see any repsonse to that last thread, but maybe in person? |
| 22:47 | <Hixie> | aboodman: i'm deep in web forms 2 right now |
| 22:47 | <aboodman> | i will ping jonas |
| 22:48 | <Hixie> | aboodman: but workers is on the list for the next thing i need to work on after wf2 |
| 23:14 | <Hixie> | anyone got a video i could use to demo <video>? |
| 23:15 | <Hixie> | i tried using something from my media library but i can't get it to work, even in safari |
| 23:17 | <hendry> | Hixie: i have lots of video OGGs on http://video.natalian.org/ you're welcome to take |
| 23:18 | <hendry> | Hixie: though the test one I use http://video.natalian.org/test/sample.ogg is pretty boring |
| 23:19 | <roc> | Chris's page has some |
| 23:21 | <Hixie> | cool |
| 23:23 | <roc> | http://www.double.co.nz/video_test/ |
| 23:34 | <annevk2> | http://annevankesteren.nl/2008/new-computer |
| 23:35 | <annevk2> | (stole from howcome, not sure where the original is) |
| 23:37 | <annevk2> | Hixie, btw, will you reinstate those demos once the presentation has been given? |
| 23:51 | <Hixie> | my plan is to write them as i'm giving the presentation |
| 23:52 | <takkaria> | where is the presentation? |
| 23:53 | <Hixie> | it's an internal google thing |
| 23:53 | <Hixie> | annevk2: is <video> in any released version of opera? |
| 23:55 | <annevk2> | just experimental builds so far: http://labs.opera.com/downloads/ |
| 23:56 | <annevk2> | Hixie, well, I meant the one you removed earlier today (regarding <canvas>) |
| 23:57 | <Hixie> | right |
| 23:57 | <Hixie> | my plan is to write it during the presentation |
| 23:57 | <annevk2> | doh |
| 23:57 | <Hixie> | the presentation is in less than 24 hours, so they'll be up soon :-P |
