| 00:13 | <hsivonen> | slides http://hsivonen.iki.fi/html-xml-ecosystem.pdf |
| 00:20 | <hober> | awesome |
| 00:20 | <hober> | short, sweet, to the point |
| 00:27 | <onitunes> | hsivonen: nice |
| 00:28 | <hsivonen> | (the slides weren't projected due to last minute changes in logistics. instead, I read them out) |
| 07:01 | <phroggy> | Microsoft: 'The WHATWG is not a "standards" organization we can work with, since it has no patent policy.' |
| 07:02 | <phroggy> | what exactly do they mean? |
| 07:02 | <Hixie> | they mean that if apple has a patent on something, and they ask for it to be put in the spec, then when microsoft implements canvas, they run the risk of being sued by apple |
| 07:02 | <Hixie> | which is a valid concern |
| 07:03 | <Hixie> | and is the main reason we are working with the w3c now |
| 07:04 | <othermaciej> | of course, the w3c doesn't protect from "random third-party patent troll who is not interested in the standard as such coincidentally has an old patent that could be read to apply to the spec" |
| 07:04 | <othermaciej> | which is the patent problem that tends to actually come up and affect Microsoft |
| 07:04 | <othermaciej> | but you do what you can |
| 07:04 | <Hixie> | yeah that's the real problem |
| 07:04 | <Hixie> | patent reform is what we really need |
| 07:06 | <phroggy> | indeed. |
| 07:08 | <phroggy> | the whole concept of patents was, in exchange for describing your invention to the public, the government grants you a monopoly for a limited time; the alternative was to protect it yourself as a trade secret, but if the secret dies with you, the public loses. |
| 07:09 | <phroggy> | but software patens typically don't describe anything that could be protected as a trade secret. They don't protect HOW it was done, they protect the whole concept of anybody doing anything like it. |
| 07:10 | <Hixie> | yup |
| 07:11 | <phroggy> | any web developer with half a brain could develop an online shopping system that lets you buy stuff with one click, although they'll probably give you a list of reasons why it would be a bad idea. Nobody was doing it before Amazon.com because nobody thought it was a good idea, not because nobody could figure out how to make it work. |
| 07:12 | <hsivonen> | I'm in the lobby |
| 07:15 | <phroggy> | so where will be the benefit to the public when Amazon's One-Click patent expires? What will the public have gained, that we wouldn't have gained if Amazon had never been granted the One-Click patent? |
| 07:15 | <phroggy> | rather, if Amazon had never applied for the One-Click patent? |
| 07:17 | <phroggy> | absolutely nothing. The original concept was of a two-way exchange: you publish your secrets, and we grant you exclusive rights for awhile. |
| 07:17 | <phroggy> | but if what you're publishing isn't of any value to the public whatsoever, then we gain nothing in exchange for granting you exclusive rights. It's not fair. |
| 07:18 | <phroggy> | </rant> |
| 08:05 | <gsnedders> | Hixie: Hey! |
| 08:09 | <Hixie> | hsivonen: yt? |
| 08:12 | <gsnedders> | Hixie: Can you stop your laptop beeping? |
| 09:17 | <phroggy> | I believe this is a typo: "and the rules that apply to authors for produce conforming documents." |
| 09:17 | <phroggy> | http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/FAQ#Why_does_HTML5_legitimise_tag_soup.3F |
| 09:22 | <Lachy> | phroggy, fixed |
| 09:24 | <annevk5> | phroggy, in the future, feel free to fix it yourself :) |
| 09:24 | <phroggy> | :-) |
| 09:24 | <phroggy> | heh, you know, it didn't even occur to me that that was a wiki page. |
| 09:28 | <Hixie> | phroggy: you have to be careful about raising issues here, last time someone complained about spam on the forums, for example, they became a forum admin. |
| 09:29 | <hsivonen_> | look like my screen server dropped off the net.. |
| 09:30 | <phroggy> | lol |
| 09:30 | phroggy | hides |
| 09:36 | <phroggy> | so the mailing list chatter about <input type="search"> has died down; it sounds like there's support for the basic idea but not necessarily for all the details of Apple's implementation (onsearch, incremental, results, autosave). |
| 09:37 | <phroggy> | I like Safari's features and I'd like to see something standardized, but I must admit, Apple's implementation is... weird. |
| 09:42 | <phroggy> | so, is it worth fixing, and getting Apple on board with changes? Or should Safari's behavior be standardized, for other browsers to implement as-is? |
| 09:42 | <phroggy> | does Apple care? |
| 10:41 | Philip` | wonders if Kristof's repeated use of Visual Basic is just trolling |
| 10:46 | <Hixie> | maybe but there's not really a good way of saying that :-) |
| 10:58 | <myakura> | (isn't that what html-author is? |
| 10:58 | <myakura> | oops, wrong channel |
| 14:36 | Hixie | changes topic to 'WHATWG (HTML5) -- http://www.whatwg.org/ -- Logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!' |
| 15:06 | <svl> | http://kore-nordmann.de/blog/current_state_of_semantic_web.html#development |
| 15:08 | <Philip`> | "XHTML 2 aimed to provide a more document centric format by adding <section> elements for better structure of document contents and omitting purely presentational markup. This move has been countered by the (X)HTML 5 initiative, which [...] " has also added elements like <section> for better structure of document contents |
| 15:08 | <Philip`> | There, I fixed it for them |
| 15:31 | <Hixie> | aaronlev_: sounds like we're going to have to hook up on some table accessibility issue |
| 15:31 | <Hixie> | aaronlev_: do you know if you're working on such things any time soon? |
| 15:31 | <Hixie> | https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=441445 in particular apparnetly |
| 15:32 | <aaronlev_> | Hixie: if you tell me its important to look at soon i'll slate it for next week |
| 15:32 | <Hixie> | i was gonna tell you the same thing |
| 15:32 | <aaronlev_> | i can do that |
| 15:32 | <Hixie> | i'm happier hooking my schedule to yours than vice versa :-) |
| 15:33 | <aaronlev_> | i was just going to do what you guys tell me :) |
| 15:33 | <Hixie> | okie dokie |
| 15:33 | <Hixie> | i'll get back to you when i start looking at it, should be relatively soon |
| 15:33 | <Hixie> | like, weeks |
| 15:33 | <Hixie> | not months |
| 17:19 | <Lachy> | annevk5: yt? |
| 17:33 | <annevk5> | Lachy, am now |
| 17:34 | annevk5 | is taking a short break |
| 17:34 | <Lachy> | annevk5, daniel glazman has time to do an interview tonight if you want to do it, or marcos |
| 17:35 | <annevk5> | sounds cool |
| 17:35 | <Lachy> | he told me that he'll have time as soon as his meeting finishes, which should be in about 5 to 10 min |
| 17:35 | <annevk5> | oh, that fast? |
| 17:36 | <Lachy> | when would you like to do it? |
| 17:36 | <annevk5> | i suppose in 5min would work |
| 17:36 | <annevk5> | although finding a suitable location might be tricky |
| 17:36 | <Lachy> | ok |
| 17:36 | <annevk5> | we can do it in the hotel, but I believe the room marcos and I stay in is also used by the people swimming |
| 17:36 | <Lachy> | we could probably go into one of the meeting rooms, or outside on the balcony |
| 17:37 | <annevk5> | or at least a subset of them |
| 17:37 | <Lachy> | I'm in the main foyer now with Daniel, come down and we can find a place |
| 17:37 | <annevk5> | is that level 0 or 1? |
| 17:37 | <Lachy> | 1 |
| 17:37 | <annevk5> | be there in a few secs |
| 17:52 | <Philip`> | What's the last icon in http://zkoss.org/img/browsers.png ? |
| 17:52 | <Philip`> | (Image has title="Supported browsers", and naturally no alt text) |
| 17:54 | <dglazkov> | camino |
| 17:55 | <Philip`> | Ah, thanks |
| 17:56 | Philip` | wonders why Opera is the only browser without any blue in its logo |
| 17:57 | <jcranmer> | Philip`: Netscape's isn't really blue |
| 17:57 | <jcranmer> | it's more green than blue |
| 17:58 | gsnedders | wonders whether to jump on Hixie |
| 17:58 | <gsnedders> | I mean, he's just standing there talking |
| 17:58 | <gsnedders> | it's kinda tempting |
| 17:58 | <jcranmer> | and you're typing on a computer (PDA?) |
| 17:58 | <gsnedders> | jcranmer: laptop |
| 17:59 | <gsnedders> | jcranmer: Dude, I'm at TPAC, we have laptops everywhere |
| 17:59 | <jcranmer> | even when I was at the summit, I only had my laptop on during the sessions |
| 17:59 | <jcranmer> | (Mozilla Summit) |
| 18:00 | <Philip`> | jcranmer: I'd say it's more like teal |
| 18:00 | <Philip`> | which is blue :-) |
| 18:00 | <gsnedders> | jcranmer: You so aren't geek enough. |
| 18:00 | <jcranmer> | it's blue-green |
| 18:00 | <jcranmer> | gsnedders: I bring my laptop with me nearly everywhere... |
| 18:01 | <gsnedders> | jcranmer: :P |
| 18:01 | <gsnedders> | jcranmer: This is one of the few times I've seen, apart from during meals, Hixie without a laptop open |
| 18:01 | <gsnedders> | jcranmer: I'm actually basically ignoring hsivonen and annevk5 who are currently talking next to me |
| 18:02 | gsnedders | thinks he ought to |
| 18:03 | jcranmer | heads off to class |
| 21:55 | <onitunes> | can someone explain what this means: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#canvaspixelarray |
| 21:55 | <Dashiva> | What part of it? |
| 21:55 | <onitunes> | if I have a CanvasPixelArray, I do obj[0] and that returns...what? |
| 21:55 | <onitunes> | octet? |
| 21:55 | <onitunes> | what's that |
| 21:55 | <onitunes> | is that a number in the range 0-255? |
| 21:55 | <Dashiva> | octet is a byte |
| 21:55 | <onitunes> | yes, I realize that |
| 21:55 | <onitunes> | but JavaScript has no "byte" type |
| 21:56 | <Dashiva> | http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/WebIDL/#es-octet |
| 21:57 | <Dashiva> | That document also explains indexgetter and indexsetter |
| 21:58 | <onitunes> | where? I looked everywhere IndexGetter is listed, and it's all spec, not definition |
| 22:00 | <Dashiva> | "If the [IndexGetter] extended attribute appears on an operation with a single unsigned long argument, it indicates that an object that implements the interface can be indexed with an unsigned long, resulting in the same effect as calling the operation with the given index (for languages that support such object indexing)." |
| 22:05 | <onitunes> | Dashiva: thanks, that was on a different page: http://www.w3.org/TR/WebIDL/ |
| 22:08 | <onitunes> | Dashiva: my apoligies, you linked to that page! not sure how I missed it |
| 22:09 | <Dashiva> | It's a long and messy toc, that's probably how :) |
