| 00:04 | <sicking_> | Hixie, workers spec doesn't seem to say that Workers should be EventTargets, only that the scope i |
| 00:04 | <sicking_> | s |
| 00:58 | <Hixie> | sicking: can you send mail on that? i'm in an airport right now, not in the best position to remember feedback |
| 00:58 | <Hixie> | thanks |
| 10:14 | <zcorpan> | "8592-01-01T02:09+02:09" Midnight UTC on ... |
| 10:15 | <zcorpan> | Hixie: doesn't look like midnight to me |
| 10:16 | <zcorpan> | oh wait |
| 10:16 | <zcorpan> | nm |
| 10:16 | <hsivonen> | it seems that UTC is to UT1 what URL is to IRI |
| 10:32 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: I filed bugs for the input[size] and content-language mentioned in the sitepoint thread you mentioned yesterday. thanks |
| 10:35 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: if an author serves FooML+XBL2 to a browser, which tree would one put ARIA attributes in? |
| 10:36 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: I think axioms say the FooML tree |
| 10:36 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: but in practice a desire for encapsulation says the shadow tree created by XBL2 |
| 10:37 | <hsivonen> | seems like a big accessibility problem down the road |
| 11:30 | <Dashiva> | Has the <q> thread managed to come up with a solution that allows using <q> in languages that puts the following punctuation within the quote marks? |
| 11:31 | <Dashiva> | I must admit to skimming the most outrageous quote trains :) |
| 11:35 | <hsivonen> | I wonder if I'd only contribute to the damage done by the denial of productivity effect of <q> if I pointed out some of its history in order to make a point that the semantic need is questionable... |
| 11:47 | <Lachy> | hsivonen, please do |
| 11:50 | <Lachy> | Dashiva, although I really hate that convention, the solution is to put the punctuation within the <q> element if that's what you need. |
| 11:50 | <Lachy> | IMHO, punctuation should only be within the quote marks if it is part of the quote itself, otherwise it should go after. |
| 11:55 | <didymos> | Lachy, but there are plenty of people who disagree with you :) |
| 11:55 | <didymos> | (myself not included, though) |
| 11:55 | <Dashiva> | Lachy: But that's just plain _wrong_ when the punctuation isn't part of the quote |
| 12:00 | <Philip`> | The correct method of quoting is obvious in the computerised world: you copy-and-paste what someone else wrote, put quotation marks around it, and then put all your extra words and punctuation outside the quotes |
| 12:01 | <Philip`> | The old world didn't have copy-and-paste, so they could be excused for doing silly things like adding punctuation inside quotes instead :-) |
| 12:02 | <hsivonen> | Lachy: I disagree with you in the case of en-US. :-) |
| 12:03 | <hsivonen> | one of the many problems with <q> is that languages high up in the pecking order (en-US and fr-FR) are illogical in the sense that quotation marks do not strictly delimit the quoted string |
| 12:04 | <Dashiva> | Eggsac-tly |
| 12:05 | <Lachy> | Dashiva, what exactly is wrong with what I said? |
| 12:06 | <hsivonen> | Lachy: what's wrong is that implementing what you said for en-US is economically a bad idea |
| 12:06 | <hsivonen> | Lachy: which inline box model bugs would you forgo the fixes for while top hackers implement punctuation flipping? |
| 12:06 | <Lachy> | hsivonen, I think you misunderstood what I said |
| 12:07 | <Dashiva> | Lachy: HTML does not have a mandate to change national languages |
| 12:08 | <Lachy> | if the punctuation should be within the quote marks, then the author should put it within the <q> element. e.g. <q>Some quote.</q> --> "Some quote." Otherwise, the author should put it outside. e.g. <q>Some quote</q>. --> "Some quote". |
| 12:08 | <Lachy> | Dashiva, I never said it did |
| 12:09 | Philip` | notes that IE8b2 (at least on an en-GB system) seems to use single quotes for <q> by default, and double quotes once you add lang=en |
| 12:09 | <hsivonen> | whoa. gsnedders isn't here today. |
| 12:09 | <hsivonen> | he has a copy of The Handbook, right? |
| 12:10 | <Dashiva> | Lachy: No, it seems you're suggesting mangling the quote instead |
| 12:10 | <Lachy> | what? |
| 12:11 | <Dashiva> | The trailing punctuation is not necessarily part of the quote |
| 12:11 | <Lachy> | It's not me mangling the quotes, it's the illogical languages that incorrectly stick punctuation within quotation marks where it doesn't belong. |
| 12:12 | <Lachy> | that's why I said "IMHO, punctuation should only be within the quote marks if it is part of the quote itself, otherwise it should go after." |
| 12:12 | <Dashiva> | Yes, but as I said, we don't go around changing languages |
| 12:13 | Philip` | sees that IE8b2 does 'x"y"z' for default <q> (on an en-GB system), "x'y'z" if lang=en or lang=en-xx where xx is not gb, and those double/single chevron things if lang=fr |
| 12:14 | <Lachy> | Philip`, so does it do "x'y'z" for en-AU? |
| 12:14 | <Philip`> | (When I say """ and "'", I mean the curly equivalents) |
| 12:15 | <Lachy> | (I'm not sure what the correct way is supposed to be, but I always do it that way) |
| 12:15 | <Philip`> | Lachy: Yes |
| 12:16 | <Lachy> | so is it doing that based on the system's own language settings when it isn't explicitly declared in the page? |
| 12:16 | <Philip`> | lang=no has funny quotes |
| 12:16 | <Philip`> | (Double-chevron, then comma/apostrophe or something) |
| 12:17 | <Philip`> | Lachy: I don't know - I'd need to change my system's language settings to test that, but I'm not sure how (and don't have time now) |
| 12:17 | Lachy | wonders what a Double-chevron is |
| 12:18 | <hsivonen> | Philip`: do you mean right-pointing double guillemet? |
| 12:18 | Philip` | might be using the wrong term |
| 12:18 | <Philip`> | I mean something that looks like 《 |
| 12:19 | <Philip`> | which my font doesn't really like, so it's the character that's like << |