| 07:52 | <yecril71> | The example with musical footnotes is a wordplay. |
| 07:53 | <yecril71> | The word "footnote" meanins that the note should be put at the bottom of the text. |
| 07:53 | <yecril71> | It means that. |
| 08:07 | <yecril71> | It has a semantic meaning, |
| 08:07 | <yecril71> | although its name clearly contains a presentational part. |
| 08:07 | <yecril71> | It is because footnotes are always placed after the text, |
| 08:08 | <yecril71> | otherwise they make no sense. |
| 08:08 | <yecril71> | A heading is another example of this shift from semantic to presentation. |
| 08:08 | <yecril71> | ... shift from presentation to semantics, of course. |
| 08:09 | <yecril71> | However, the word "footnote" meaning a musical note that has its flag up is purely presentational. |
| 08:10 | <yecril71> | Setting the class of such a symbol to "footnote" is a misunderstanding. |
| 08:11 | <yecril71> | It should be CLASS="foot note" instead. |
| 08:11 | <yecril71> | So this is not a good counterexample at all. |
| 08:13 | <yecril71> | The solution presented in the specification is may be inconsistent but it is at least practical. |
| 08:14 | <yecril71> | A class is a semantic property, it is not exclusively for the sake of styling. |
| 08:15 | <yecril71> | The cases where class bears no semantics are exactly the cases where id can (and should) be used instead. |
| 08:16 | <yecril71> | Sort of "it really means nothing, but I would like this text to be yellow". |
| 08:16 | <yecril71> | Where "this text" is replaced by an identifier. |
| 08:17 | <yecril71> | On the other hand, class=xyzzy means that this text is an instance of class xyzzy. |
| 08:18 | <yecril71> | And this is semantic information. |
| 08:18 | <yecril71> | Or rather denotes an instance of class xyzzy. |
| 08:23 | <yecril71> | It seems irc-logs do not work. |
| 08:24 | <yecril71> | So I am just typing in vain. |
| 09:37 | <Philip`> | yecril71: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20081101 - the logs do seem to work :-) |
| 10:35 | <yecril71> | They work today but there is a hole of yesterday. |
| 10:35 | <yecril71> | So the whole think is sort of unreliable. |
| 10:35 | <yecril71> | The whole thing is sort of unreliable. |
| 10:36 | <yecril71> | It is funny how I tend to make typos here. It does not happen in e-mail that often. |
| 11:09 | <Lachy> | yecril71, most IRC logging systems are somewhat unreliable because they depend upon the up time and connectivity of the server running the log bot |
| 11:14 | <Dashiva> | Several bots running on each server on the network, connecting from different locations. |
| 13:29 | <erlehmann> | If you don't celebrate Halloween, PROCEED AS NORMAL. |
| 15:56 | <yecril71> | The recommended way of making footnotes is inconsistent because |
| 15:56 | <yecril71> | there are three very different ways, depending on the context. |
| 15:56 | <Hixie> | that's not inconsistent |
| 15:58 | <yecril71> | Moreover, the usage boundaries are not sharp. |
| 15:58 | <yecril71> | So, when the text of your footnote changes, you have to change the footnote syntax. |
| 15:58 | <yecril71> | If that is not inconsistent, then what is? |
| 15:59 | <yecril71> | And please update the IRC link on Wiki. |
| 16:01 | <Hixie> | being inconsistent would be like having three footnotes use different styles in the same document |
| 16:01 | <Hixie> | the spec suggests different ways to do it, and allows authors to pick whichever one they want |
| 16:01 | <Hixie> | which link in the wiki? |
| 16:01 | <yecril71> | See your talk page |
| 16:02 | <yecril71> | Did you mean "styles" as in CSS? |
| 16:03 | <yecril71> | Using different styles in various places need not be inconsistent. |
| 16:03 | <yecril71> | Using different constructs for similar semantics is inconsistent. |
| 16:05 | <yecril71> | Exercise: Find all footnotes in the current document. |
| 16:05 | <yecril71> | The length of the solution is the measure of consistency. |
| 16:05 | <Hixie> | oh feel free to edit the page |
| 16:06 | <yecril71> | I feel but it is protected |
| 16:06 | <Hixie> | huh, why was it protected |
| 16:06 | <yecril71> | Use action=protect |
| 16:06 | <Hixie> | try now |
| 16:11 | <yecril71> | Done. |
| 16:13 | <Hixie> | thanks |
| 16:13 | <Hixie> | bbl |
| 17:23 | <yecril71> | User agents, such as web crawlers, do have interest in semantics. |
| 17:27 | <yecril71> | It would be nice to specify title and behaviour using CSS. |
| 17:27 | <yecril71> | For the time being, behaviour relies on JavaScript and |
| 17:28 | <yecril71> | it can be applied via JavaScript, although this is a bit inefficient. |
| 17:28 | <yecril71> | There is no workaround for title. |
| 17:29 | <yecril71> | (where no script is available, that is). |
| 17:29 | <yecril71> | However, managing hyperlinks in the same way would be insane. |
| 17:30 | <yecril71> | Images and hiding are subject to CSS. |
| 17:31 | <yecril71> | Ordinarily, there should be just one element called "edit". |
| 17:31 | <yecril71> | Or no such elements, of course. |
| 17:32 | <yecril71> | I can see nothing wrong in having to change the stylesheet. |
| 17:33 | <yecril71> | CSS is modular because of @import. |
| 17:33 | <yecril71> | The only problem with CSS is that you cannot explicitly inherit style |
| 17:33 | <yecril71> | from a structurally unrelated class. |
| 17:34 | <yecril71> | That problem clearly wants a solution but it is not a problem in HTML. |
| 17:34 | <yecril71> | Well, here you are, Bert. |
| 20:48 | <Hixie> | 106 |
| 21:48 | <takkaria> | 107 |