| 03:41 | <TelFiRE> | Is there a badge or something I can display on my site for HTML5? |
| 03:45 | <aho> | people who care will use a validator |
| 03:45 | <aho> | but yes, there certainly are badges for this stuff. |
| 03:46 | <TelFiRE> | no, people who have no idea what it is but recognize that it's "cool" will not. It's a buzz word now. And I've been scouring the web for about an hour and all I can find is this. Is this official? http://reviews.cnet.com/i/bto/20100126/HTML5Icon.png |
| 08:47 | <estellevw> | I found 2 issues in browser rendering that may be more of a spec bug than a browser bug |
| 08:47 | <estellevw> | anyone here listening, though, before I dive in? |
| 09:08 | <Slaanesh> | estellevw: Dive in first, get resonse later :) |
| 09:08 | <Slaanesh> | *response |
| 09:08 | <Slaanesh> | People read the backlog and respond asynchronously |
| 09:09 | <estellevw> | Thinking SVG may be better for the SVG working group |
| 09:09 | <estellevw> | but basically ... background position is not working correctly |
| 09:09 | <estellevw> | when using background-image: url(file.svg); |
| 09:10 | <estellevw> | and the last mention i can find in the archives is 2008 i think |
| 09:10 | <othermaciej> | in which browser? |
| 09:11 | <estellevw> | my sandbox is http://www.standardista.com/sandbox/testofsvgbgimage.html |
| 09:11 | <estellevw> | in Opera and Safari |
| 09:11 | <estellevw> | both support svg as background image |
| 09:12 | <estellevw> | sandbox is ugly, but i have just been testing diffferent stuff |
| 09:12 | <estellevw> | the grey bar in that test should have a background image |
| 09:12 | <estellevw> | but i can only call a background image the size of the current element |
| 09:13 | <estellevw> | if the elmeent is 120px tall, i can only posistion up to background-position: 0 -119px to see a 1px sliver |
| 09:13 | <estellevw> | even though the contents of the svg are taller |
| 09:13 | <estellevw> | i didn't declare a height on the svg itself |
| 09:13 | <estellevw> | i'll try that next |
| 09:13 | <estellevw> | but seems like a bug either way |
| 09:14 | <estellevw> | the only conversation i could find on the issue was this thread: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2008May/0025.html |
| 09:14 | <othermaciej> | wouldn't setting background-y of -60px and setting no-repeat cause the whole SVG to render outside the grey element? |
| 09:15 | <othermaciej> | the Web Inspector certainly thinks those properties are set in Safari |
| 09:15 | <estellevw> | the bg position is -60... it pushes the background image up 60 pixels, so the background image should start at ht e60px mark on the svg |
| 09:16 | <estellevw> | -30 works - the image covers half the element, but gets cut off |
| 09:16 | <othermaciej> | how tall is the SVG's natural size? |
| 09:17 | <othermaciej> | does it have one? (I guess that would be by declaring a viewbox?) |
| 09:17 | <othermaciej> | did you try using -webkit-background-size? |
| 09:17 | <othermaciej> | that should work to resize the image if you want to make it bigger and then reposition it |
| 09:17 | <Slaanesh> | The natural height seems to be around 230px |
| 09:19 | <estellevw> | i'll try that |
| 09:19 | <othermaciej> | it might be that it scales to the size of the element, unless you adjust it with background-size or something |
| 09:20 | <estellevw> | it does, but sizing it isnt' helping |
| 09:21 | <estellevw> | it does scale to the elment.... which is why i brought it up here. |
| 09:21 | <estellevw> | seems like this needs to be either specified or explained in the spec. I didn't see it |
| 09:21 | <estellevw> | there |
| 09:21 | <Slaanesh> | Hmm |
| 09:22 | <Slaanesh> | Sort of looks like the svg is rendered to fit the element's box, so when you background-position it upwards, the content that should be visible just isn't there |
| 09:23 | <othermaciej> | I would expect -webkit-background-size to have an effect |
| 09:26 | <estellevw> | found the solution |
| 09:26 | <estellevw> | the size has to be declared in the SVG |
| 09:26 | <estellevw> | I'll go over the spec with a finer tooth comb to see if i missed that |
| 09:27 | <estellevw> | and file a bug to add htat language in if i dont' see it |
| 09:27 | <Slaanesh> | I'd say there's still a bug |
| 09:27 | <estellevw> | if you refresh that link |
| 09:27 | <estellevw> | it's working |
| 09:27 | <Slaanesh> | It might be undefined how to size a svg with non-explicit size, but surely it shouldn't crop |
| 09:27 | <estellevw> | oh, that is a no repeat |
| 09:27 | <estellevw> | and i set the width to 600 |
| 09:28 | <estellevw> | it makes sense that the size of an image should be defined, so defining the size of the svg made sense |
| 09:28 | <estellevw> | i just don't remember that being required in the spec |
| 09:40 | <Slaanesh> | http://www.pvv.org/~magnusrk/test/svgsprite.html |
| 09:42 | <Slaanesh> | Can't see how it looks in Safari here, though |
| 11:48 | <boblet> | anyone know what “the URL given as the item type should not be automatically dereferenced” or “Item types are opaque identifiers” means? #microdata |
| 11:49 | boblet | remembers irc isn’t twitter |
| 11:55 | <Philip`> | boblet: It means they should be treated as meaningless strings, not as URLs |
| 11:55 | <boblet> | Philip`: so what’s the point of them then? |
| 11:56 | <Philip`> | They use the URL mechanism to provide global uniqueness |
| 11:56 | <boblet> | aah ok |
| 11:57 | <Philip`> | The URL might point to a 404, which is fine |
| 11:58 | <boblet> | Philip`: I kinda thought that as microdata is machine-readable a program could theoretically reference the itemid to learn about a new vocabulary, but that seems forbidden. how does that affect machine readibility |
| 11:58 | <Philip`> | though it shouldn't point to a non-existent domain because there's nothing to stop someone else picking the same non-existent domain |
| 11:59 | <Philip`> | You can parse microdata without needing to know the vocabulary |
| 11:59 | <Philip`> | (which is probably its main benefit over microformats) |
| 11:59 | <boblet> | yep |
| 12:00 | <Philip`> | and I don't think there were compelling use cases for writing tools that process parsed data from vocabularies they know nothing about |
| 12:00 | <boblet> | aah ok |
| 12:00 | <Slaanesh> | Non-dereferencable URLs is probably the most futile effort ever |
| 12:01 | <Philip`> | so it wasn't considered important to support that |
| 12:02 | <boblet> | I was asking Manu about microdata vocabularies and heard that RDFa vocabs can be used (with URLs as names) but that microdata vocabularies have to be defined in spec. that 2nd part doesn’t seem right because e.g. Google’s data-vocabulary.org vocabs |
| 12:03 | <boblet> | http://twitter.com/manusporny |
| 12:03 | <boblet> | microdata vocabs can be defined independently right? |
| 12:03 | <gsnedders> | Yup. |
| 12:04 | <Slaanesh> | Yes, as long as you specify them somewhere |
| 12:04 | <boblet> | huh. was wondering if i was missing something there for a while :) |
| 12:04 | <Slaanesh> | It's just authoring conformance, it doesn't actually matter in processing |
| 12:04 | <boblet> | wonder why he said that |
| 12:05 | <Philip`> | As far as I'm aware, you can define microdata vocabularies however you want and write machine-readable versions in whatever format you want and then code them into your microdata-using application and associate them with the item type identifier |
| 12:06 | <boblet> | so that’s why you can use RDFa vocabs too huh |
| 12:06 | <boblet> | wow |
| 12:06 | <boblet> | nice |
| 12:07 | <Philip`> | I think RDFa is designed to tie in with RDFish ways of defining vocabularies; microdata is designed to not care about that problem and merely to provide a tree of data that you can interpret however you want |
| 12:09 | <boblet> | now wondering how to write dereferenced URL in a way that normal ppl would understand :) a uniqueness token? hmm |
| 12:10 | <Philip`> | Dereferenced URL? |
| 12:10 | <Philip`> | That's just a resource :-) |
| 12:10 | <Philip`> | (unless you're an HTTP person in which case it's a representation) |
| 12:11 | <boblet> | Philip`: heh, I’d say that’s still a little too metaphysical for html5doctor readers ;) |
| 12:11 | <Philip`> | Do you mean something like non-dereferenceable URL instead? |
| 12:12 | <boblet> | eg “Note that the URL is only a unique vocabulary identifier — it doesn’t actually have to have any content” |
| 12:12 | <Philip`> | Maybe it'd be best to give examples |
| 12:12 | <boblet> | (URL being the value of itemtype="") |
| 12:13 | <Slaanesh> | boblet: Well, it _may_ be dereferencable |
| 12:13 | <Philip`> | like say it can be "http://n.whatwg.org/whatever"; even though there's not a page (or even a domain) there |
| 12:13 | <Slaanesh> | Just not necessarily |
| 12:14 | <Philip`> | and say that's a completely different item type from "http://n.whatwg.org/whatever/"; since they're different strings even if they might happen to be equivalent when used as URLs |
| 12:15 | <Philip`> | or something like that |
| 12:16 | <boblet> | huh |
| 12:18 | <Slaanesh> | "note that the URL is only a unique vocabulary identifier. Some vocabularies may use URLs that go somewhere, but for microdata purposes it's just a string with no special meaning ("opaque identifier"). |
| 12:20 | <jgraham> | boblet: The URLs are compared as strings. The resembelence to URLs you use to access resources on the web is either a) useful or b) dangerously misleading, depending on your point of view |
| 12:20 | <boblet> | Slaanesh: thanks for the suggestion |
| 12:20 | <jgraham> | It could be useful because the URL could point to some human-readable text explaining how to use the vocabulary |
| 12:21 | <boblet> | jgraham: hehe, that seems to define a lot of HTML5 huh |
| 12:21 | <boblet> | yeah that’s what Google vocabularies do, except for recipe |
| 12:21 | <jgraham> | It could be dangrously misleading because you might think that http://foo.example and http://foo.example/ were the same |
| 12:22 | <jgraham> | But they are not (since there is only string comparison) |
| 12:22 | <jgraham> | The reason that UAs must not automatically deference the URLs is that this constitutes a DDOS attack |
| 12:22 | <boblet> | i kind of feel that’s edge case, as most users will reuse vocabs, and those that make them will probably know about this |
| 12:23 | <jgraham> | (see also: doctype URLs) |
| 12:23 | <boblet> | aah good point |
| 12:23 | <Slaanesh> | See also: People editing doctype URLs to "customize" |
| 12:24 | <jgraham> | boblet: The danger is that a user might use some vocabulary that defines http://example.com and write http://example.com/ instead |
| 12:24 | <jgraham> | and be confused when noting works |
| 12:24 | <jgraham> | *nothing |
| 12:24 | <jgraham> | (or not notice, but have wasted their time) |
| 12:25 | <boblet> | jgraham: so both useful and dangerously misleading then? |
| 12:25 | <jgraham> | boblet: And verbose. Let's not forget that :) |
| 12:25 | <Slaanesh> | The counterargument to useful is that you could just google the URL anyhow :) |
| 12:26 | <jgraham> | (verbose is the reason that RDFa defines prefixing mechanisms. But that turns out to be even worse) |
| 12:26 | <boblet> | jgraham: well not a big deal per itemid, but certainly if you’re using URLs for itemprop names |
| 12:26 | <jgraham> | Yeah |
| 12:26 | <boblet> | oh, being summoned |
| 12:26 | <boblet> | I shall return presently |
| 12:26 | <boblet> | thanks for your input all |
| 12:27 | jgraham | worries that boblet might be some sort of demonic being |
| 12:29 | <jgraham> | WTF,since when did cmd+l open the Go-to-page dialog in Opera / Mac rather than focusing the URL bar? |
| 12:32 | <Slaanesh> | boblet: You seem to be writing W3 instead of W3C |
| 13:19 | <karlcow> | http://www.w3.org/Protocols/rfc2616/rfc2616-sec3.html#sec3.2.3 |
| 13:19 | <karlcow> | 3.2.3 URI Comparison |
| 13:29 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: It's always done that… sometimes. |
| 13:44 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: Phase of the moon? |
| 13:46 | <Workshiva> | I want to know how I get rid of that horrible linux behavior where middle click not on a link navigates to clipboard contents |
| 13:47 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: Did you see http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1444946 btw? Seems like something you might be interested in |
| 14:10 | gsnedders | facepalms at jgraham |
| 14:10 | <gsnedders> | (There again, I wonder _which_ of the numerous possibilities makes jgraham think he'll be interested in it) |
| 14:15 | <Philip`> | Workshiva: I thought most browsers had options for that |
| 14:17 | <Philip`> | Workshiva: (At least Opera and Firefox do) |
| 14:18 | <gsnedders> | (I guess I should read the article before speculating on why jgraham linked me to it, from the basis on the title alone…) |
| 14:18 | <Workshiva> | Philip`: That might solve it in one installation of one app |
| 14:18 | <Workshiva> | We need to remove the problem at the source |
| 14:20 | <Philip`> | Workshiva: Since the browsers provide options, I assume there isn't a source - each application makes the decision to implement that obsolete convention |
| 14:21 | <Workshiva> | If we eliminate enough developers, future developers will think twice before following |
| 14:22 | <Philip`> | PuTTY is crazy because it does copy on select and paste on right-click, so if you try to select some text then right click to get a context menu to find a copy option then actually you paste it |
| 14:23 | <Workshiva> | It's only trying to stay compatible with the general unix craziness |
| 14:23 | <Philip`> | Middle-click isn't too dangerous for me since my mouse's middle button only works half the time and only if I press it in a particular direction, so that's okay |
| 14:24 | <Workshiva> | (But with a new kind of crazy) |
| 14:24 | <Workshiva> | Well, middle click is 'open link in background tab' in Opera, so it explicitly means I don't want to change anything about the current tab |
| 14:24 | <Philip`> | (I suppose it might work more reliably if I didn't use it in the wrong hand and therefore naturally press the button from an unexpected angle) |
| 14:24 | <Workshiva> | Miss by a pixel, and suddenly the page is gone |
| 14:24 | <Workshiva> | I can't imagine what kind of masochist would wnnt that behavior |
| 14:25 | <Workshiva> | *want |
| 14:25 | <Philip`> | File a bug to change the default :-) |
| 14:25 | Philip` | wonders if Opera has data on how many people change that option |
| 14:26 | <Workshiva> | I bet most linux users are already suffering from stockholm syndrome and don't realize how much they're suffering |
| 14:26 | <gsnedders> | Workshiva: That's just too quotable. |
| 14:26 | <Workshiva> | Oh, great, I have to pick between pasting and panning? |
| 14:27 | <Workshiva> | Why not throw in 'quit opera' for good measure? |
| 14:28 | <gsnedders> | Workshiva: BTW, you moved somewhere for work? |
| 14:28 | <doublec> | i guess html injection issues are about to get into the news in a big way |
| 14:28 | <Workshiva> | gsnedders: Zürich |
| 14:28 | <doublec> | given the chaos at youtube in the last hour or so |
| 14:28 | <Workshiva> | doublec: It's been on reddit for two hours already |
| 14:28 | <gsnedders> | Workshiva: OK, I was kinda guessing that :) |
| 14:29 | <Philip`> | Workshiva: Apart from the crazy people who've used Unix for decades and designed things like X, most Linux users used to be Windows users and I expect they'd like things to work basically the same |
| 14:29 | <doublec> | that's what I get for visiting youtube before reddit :) |
| 14:31 | <jgraham> | Dear lazy irc: How do I rip CDs to vorbis format on OSX without paying for the priviledge? |
| 14:32 | <Workshiva> | >OSX |
| 14:32 | <Workshiva> | >without paying |
| 14:32 | <jgraham> | My best answer so far is "Install linux in virtualbox" |
| 14:32 | <Workshiva> | I think I found your problem |
| 14:32 | <jgraham> | Workshiva: yeah, that does seem to be a common problem |
| 14:33 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: Can VLC not do so? |
| 14:33 | <jgraham> | But you would have thought that by now there were enough unix geeks using OSX on laptopns that *someone* would have written something free for many simple tasks |
| 14:33 | <Philip`> | jgraham: Eject CD, insert CD into computer with different OS? |
| 14:33 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: VLC rips CDs? |
| 14:33 | <Philip`> | That seems easier than installing a VM |
| 14:33 | <Workshiva> | I spotted something very interesting a few days |
| 14:33 | <Workshiva> | ago |
| 14:33 | <jgraham> | Philip`: I lack a computer with another OS and a working CD drive |
| 14:33 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: Surely you don't need to do that? Can't you just install GNOME/KDE/whatever within X11 (in the GNOME case) or natively (in the KDE case)? |
| 14:34 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: I think it can |
| 14:34 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: I think installing a VM would likly be easier than trying to get that to work... |
| 14:34 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: I however lack any CDs in this country to test this theory |
| 14:34 | <gsnedders> | (of VLC) |
| 14:34 | <jgraham> | I will investigate VLC |
| 14:35 | <Workshiva> | I saw the VP of FSF Europe using a macbook |
| 14:36 | <Philip`> | jgraham: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/private/cdrecord.html sounds like it works in OS X |
| 14:36 | <Philip`> | Workshiva: Maybe he had installed Linux onto it |
| 14:37 | <Workshiva> | No, she was running OSX |
| 14:37 | <Philip`> | Oops, s/he/s\/he/ |
| 14:38 | <gsnedders> | Philip`: Or singular they. |
| 14:38 | <Philip`> | gsnedders: That would be a much boringer regexp |
| 14:43 | <jgraham> | I would like to add some more feature requests to my irc request. Like the ability to have one file per track without doing them all individually |
| 14:43 | <jgraham> | VLC appears to be insane |
| 14:45 | <jgraham> | (and I don't think using the command line is a very viable option) |
| 14:48 | <jgraham> | http://en.flossmanuals.net/VLC/RipCD is like a summay of everything that is wrong with VLC |
| 14:51 | <gsnedders> | Sadly, I wouldn't say that's all that's wrong |
| 14:51 | <jgraham> | From a UI point of view I mean. It has a wizard called just "Wizard" in the menu! |
| 14:52 | <jgraham> | That's in-fucking-sane |
| 14:53 | <Philip`> | http://cdrecord.berlios.de/private/man/cdrecord/cdda2ogg.1.html looks like a much more convenient UI |
| 14:53 | <Philip`> | (as long as it actually works) |
| 15:02 | <boblet> | Slaanesh: thanks for that catch |
| 15:36 | <AryehGregor> | Workshiva, Chrome seems not to navigate on middle-click on Linux, even with a URL in the primary clipboard. |
| 16:42 | <boblet> | perfect example of jgraham’s comment about itemid being a string that pretends to be a URL; the Google vocabulary for Review-aggregate is http://www.data-vocabulary.org/Review-aggregate, but that page auto-forwards to http://www.data-vocabulary.org/Review-aggregate/ |
| 16:43 | <boblet> | (seems like all their data-vocabulary pages do) |
| 16:43 | <boblet> | caught me out in a copy & paste |
| 18:22 | <estellevw> | Should the <embed> element have an alt attibrute? |
| 18:22 | <estellevw> | From the spec: |
| 18:22 | <estellevw> | Content attributes: Global attributes, src, type, width, height, Any other attribute that has no namespace (see prose). |
| 18:23 | <estellevw> | how is accessibilty expected to be added? |
| 18:24 | <Workshiva> | The plugin is supposed to handle accessibility |
| 18:27 | <estellevw> | ok, so including an SVG, the contents of the <title> attribute would suffice? |
| 18:29 | <estellevw> | Should the plugin fail though... |
| 18:29 | <Workshiva> | Well, ideally you'd use <object> or <img> instead |
| 18:32 | <estellevw> | need to test both those in IE with SVG before responding... |
| 18:33 | <Workshiva> | <img> is right out for the current browser generation |
| 18:33 | <Workshiva> | But <object> should be possible with some juggling |
| 18:34 | <AryehGregor> | <img> works in everything but Firefox, and should work in next Firefox too. |
| 18:34 | <AryehGregor> | (for SVG) |
| 18:35 | <estellevw> | Shouldn't there be an alt attribute on the <embed> anyhow so the user knows whether the plugin is worth accessing? |
| 18:35 | <AryehGregor> | Isn't <embed> obsolete? |
| 18:35 | <Workshiva> | No, not from what I can see |
| 18:35 | <AryehGregor> | Or is there some reason to use it? |
| 18:35 | <estellevw> | i thought html5 was the first time embed is in the spec |
| 18:36 | <Workshiva> | It's the first time it is specified, yes |
| 18:36 | <estellevw> | http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Overview.html#the-embed-element |
| 18:36 | <Workshiva> | AryehGregor: <img> SVG works in IE6/7? |
| 18:36 | <AryehGregor> | Workshiva, no, no SVG works in IE6/7/8. |
| 18:37 | <Workshiva> | There's a plugin, isn't there? |
| 18:37 | <AryehGregor> | You said "current browser generation", not "obsolete browsers with third-party plugins that no one actually has installed". |
| 18:37 | <estellevw> | yes, there is an Adobe plugin for <embed src=x.svg type="image/svg+xml" to work in IE |
| 18:37 | <AryehGregor> | I take "current generation" to mean "the latest release of everything". |
| 18:38 | <Workshiva> | I meant "all versions in significant use" |
| 18:38 | <Workshiva> | And I wouldn't consider IE9 current until it's actually released |
| 18:38 | <Workshiva> | Anyhoo |
| 18:38 | <estellevw> | "The embed element represents an integration point for an external (typically non-HTML) application or interactive content." |
| 18:38 | <Workshiva> | <object> and the plugin should work for svg in all relevant graphical browsers |
| 18:38 | <estellevw> | therefor I think that svg will be seen as a valid use of embed. |
| 18:40 | <AryehGregor> | Is there some reason to use <embed> instead of <object>? |
| 18:40 | <AryehGregor> | For anything? |
| 18:40 | <estellevw> | should <object> be used to embed the SVG, is the SVG title enough for accessibility? |
| 18:40 | <estellevw> | it's in the spec. People will use it. |
| 18:40 | <Workshiva> | <embed> is easier to do cross-browser, I'd say |
| 18:41 | <Workshiva> | But I wouldn't recommend it |
| 19:39 | <annevk> | haha |
| 19:39 | <annevk> | bio of http://twitter.com/FreeTheInternet "We Are Anonymous, We Are Legion And Divided By Zero. We Do Not Forgive Internet Censorship And We Do Not Forget Free Speech . We Are Over 9000, Expect Us!" |
| 20:59 | <jgraham> | So I gave up trying to use vorbis on OSX when it occured to me that trying to install KDE from MacPorts was insane |
| 20:59 | <jgraham> | I'm pretty sure that it is the Apple users that have Stockholm Syndrone |
| 21:00 | <jgraham> | s/use/rip CDs as/ |
| 21:14 | <daedb> | jgraham: Run a Windows application through OSX version of Wine? |
| 21:24 | <jgraham> | daedb: That is also insane |
| 21:25 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: Lose yourself, go insane? |
| 21:26 | <hamcore> | lose yourself in the music, the moment, you own it, you better never let it go . |
| 21:26 | <daedb> | jgraham: I was thinking of pre-made bundles like http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=77261 though it still requires X11. |
| 21:28 | <hamcore> | I didn't see any mobile sites specification for html5, is there one? |
| 21:28 | <jgraham> | hamcore: What is a "mobile sites specification"? |
| 21:29 | <jgraham> | I suspect the nswer is "no" though |
| 21:29 | <jgraham> | *answer |
| 21:29 | <hamcore> | best practices |
| 21:29 | <jgraham> | We tend to have a "one web" philosophy |
| 21:30 | <hamcore> | nice, thanks. |
| 21:31 | <jgraham> | (that doesn't exclude best practices of course, but does tend to exclude "profiles") |
| 21:33 | <hamcore> | surely. |
